WE ARE OPEN - SEPTEMBER - THE SIXTH EXTINCTION: AN UNNATURAL HISTORY

[Teri]

Andra wrote: "Prologue and Other Topics of Discussion -Response to Teri

(view spoiler)[And it's not just conservation/energy use that we're lagging behind Europeans, but also in food stuff. Dyes and chemicals in processed foods that Europe ban but the FDA continues to say are "not a concern". It is troubling indeed. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

(view spoiler)[Yes, a whole other layer to the complexities that we're facing (hide spoiler)]

Leslie wrote: "Chapter 1

[spoilers removed]"

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Andra wrote: "Prologue and Other Topics of Discussion -Response to Teri

One thing that overwhelms me when reading books like this one is how difficult it is to regulate Man's global actions. Every time I go to ..."

Excellent post Andra and very thoughtful - I did add a spoiler thread for all sorts of ancillary posts that we could make about the environment or associations - what you posted was fine here but I just wanted you to know that we also had that thread if you have articles or interesting connections with movies, plays or other medium.

Here is that link too - https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Response to Andra

(view spoiler)[Actually your thoughts are exactly like ones that I have had about the current generational climate and global responsibility.

You seem like a very interesting person and your posts are spot on.

Do not be intimidated - there are no right or wrong answers in these discussions - and your posts have been stellar. (hide spoiler)]

[Vincent]

this is a trial to see if I can do a hidden comment

this is let's say for chapter 1

spoiler/

[Vincent]

it seems to have worked but I do not see a "view spoiler"

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

No you did not make it Vincent (smile)

Do you know how to do bolding - if you do - instead of the b for bolding put in the word spoiler where the b would be.

How about this

You can copy and paste below to get your spoiler right: (just copy and paste and where you see Put text here - that is where your comment would go.

<spoiler>Put Text Here</spoiler>

We also give instructions at the beginning of the thread Vince - you will get the hang of it yet.

[Vincent]

Bentley wrote: "No you did not make it Vincent (smile)

Do you know how to do bolding - if you do - instead of the b for bolding put in the word spoiler where the b would be.

How about this

You can copy and past..."

Thanks Bentley

[José Luís]

I'm joining in! I'll start reading soon after I tackle another book. :)

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Glad to have you Jose

[Teri]

Glad you're joining in José! Looking forward to your posts.

[Vincent]

Comments treated for spoiler for Chapter 2 pgs 23 to 44 - hope this works

(view spoiler)[ Chapter two comments – pages 23 to 44

So it strikes me that Cuvier and his contemporaries were truly looking to learn but still limited to preconceived ideas. They may be a good preparation for Darwin but Kolbert does not mention that there was any object or comment from the religious community at the time of the Cuvier and other studies. (These big creatures would have maybe brought the dimensions of Noah’s Arc in question).

The beginnings of the empirical age for evolution had begun I think. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Vince you have got it - you are little ahead but you have placed it in a spoiler

Chapter Two

(view spoiler)[Cuvier establishing the fact of past life forms was very big. He established the sciences of comparative anatomy and paleontology. I think he was quite a forward thinker who was able to understand what came before in a new way.

From the Encyclopedia Britannica:

Cuvier’s lifework may be considered as marking a transition between the 18th-century view of nature and the view that emerged in the last half of the 19th century as a result of the doctrine of evolution. By rejecting the 18th-century method of arranging animals in a continuous series in favour of classifying them in four separate groups, he raised the key question of why animals are anatomically different. Although Cuvier’s doctrine of catastrophism did not last, he did set the science of paleontology on a firm empirical foundation. He did this by introducing fossils into zoological classification, showing the progressive relation between rock strata and their fossil remains, and by demonstrating, in his comparative anatomy and his reconstructions of fossil skeletons, the importance of functional and anatomical relationships. (hide spoiler)]

[Andra]

Thoughts on Chapter One

(view spoiler)[I can't help but admire Kolbert's determination to see her subjects firsthand. I'm not sure I'd go tramping through a Central American rainforest in the dark to get eye-to-eye with my subjects.

I was disappointed to learn there's no apparent long-term plan for the frogs they're saving. Has anyone found a research study that might experiment with making them immune to Bd? I live in coastal South Carolina, and I fall asleep most summer nights listening to toad-song (immune to both Bd and my earplugs. Ha.) We can't force creatures to live in a bubble forever. I hope someone's trying to find a way to let them live in their natural habitats. (hide spoiler)]

[Andra]

Response to Bentley

Thank you. I put a link to the movie I mentioned on the other thread. If anyone watches it, I'd love to know what they think.

[Glynn]

Teri wrote: "Welcome to the discussion, Vincent! How exciting that you'll be going to the Gore Climate Activist training. I look forward to hearing about it."

Me too. Ironic that it's being held in Florida.

[Shannon]

Teri wrote: "Prologue (with Topics for Discussion)

(view spoiler)[1.) Scientists have been studying climate change since before I was born. It's actually ironic to me that when I was in 5th grade human driven climate change (called "The Green House Effect", then) was a given, and that now along with other givens, like evolution, have come into question. Purely anecdotally, I have observed climate change in my own part of the world. We've had a cooler, dryer effect, while the rest of you have baked, but according to the climate models that's expected.
2.) To my distress, my nation has weakened it's clean air and water laws in the interests of big corporations. So, in answer to question 2 not only "too little too late", but a regression! I have family in Europe who follow rules, and consider actions which are so much greener than anything we Americans even take time to consider, and that should take into account that I live in a region that is ridiculously progressive in green-ness.
3.)I got much farther than the schedule! It's a good book so far. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Response to Shannon

Thank you for your post. I tend to agree and it is a shame. Glad you have liked the book so far.

[Teri]

Welcome Shannon. Happy to have you join us. I'm happy that you are enjoying the book. I've not read ahead yet, but will likely get a hunk done during this long weekend.

Response to your post

(view spoiler)[I agree that it may be too little too late. I do think, though that there are some cities that are working toward making changes for the better. Not on the scale that Europe has done but at least a step forward. I know that here in Austin, plastic bags at the grocery store is unheard of. You either bring your own bags (cloth/reusable) or you buy paper bags. I know that San Francisco has certain rules on recycling and water usage. Little things that help, but as you mention, it may be too little, too late. (hide spoiler)]

Shannon wrote: "Teri wrote: "Prologue (with Topics for Discussion)

[Teri]

Welcome Quanjun. Thanks for jumping right in to the discussion.

Response to Quanjun

(view spoiler)[You've made some great points. I think climate change is very complex and has many contributors. I think that humans certainly are a major cause but not the only cause. It's important for this topic to be discussed more and for there to be more education on it. We need to get past it being awkward to it being a regular discussion point.

I, too, was humored by the African clawed frogs laying eggs. I wondered they same thing: how does one even find out about it? Coincidence or did someone decide to test it? (hide spoiler)]

[G]

First, I'd like to tell Andra that I've rarely met a more supportive group of people than here on the HBC, so please don't be intimidated. Because of ill health I've been gone a while and returning now, it's like I never left. The second is a spoiler, though. (view spoiler)[ I find Cuvier immensely interesting. Can anyone recommend a biography? I also find it interesting that Thomas Jefferson questions whether 'Nature' would allow any one 'race of her animals to become extinct' . Such an amazing person to even contemplate this topic when it was still not well known. But then I am a fan. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Thank you G for those great comments about the group and encouragement for Andra. You've been a pleasure to have here. Glad you're getting back to health and posting again.

(view spoiler)[I haven't read ahead so I'm not familiar with Cuvier but would this maybe be a good book for you?

by Martin J.S. Rudwick (no photo)

BTW - he's an author so here's his source to cite!
Georges Cuvier (hide spoiler)]

G wrote: "First, I'd like to tell Andra that I've rarely met a more supportive group of people than here on the HBC, so please don't be intimidated. Because of ill health I've been gone a while and returning..."

[Teri]

Thanks for the information, Quanjun. I'll be looking at that further.

Quanjun wrote: "Teri wrote: "Welcome Quanjun. Thanks for jumping right in to the discussion.

Response to Quanjun"

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

G thank you for your most kind words and I think Teri beat me to it in adding the book which translates his works.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

We continue our journey this week through the book.

[Shannon]

Teri wrote: (view spoiler)[ [I agree that it may be too little too late. I do think, though that there are some cities that are working toward making changes for the better. (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[ In my city (Seattle) we use our own shopping bags, recycle everything, and also have city compost. Local hotels have signs telling you how to save your towels for reuse, and the local transit uses a small percentage of alternative fuels. But I recently traveled for work to a neighboring town and they don't even recycle cardboard. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Response to Shannon

(view spoiler)[Sad, isn't it? Unfortunately it is city by city or state by state. I think it's time for Federal to start making some changes. (hide spoiler)]

Shannon wrote: "Teri wrote: [spoilers removed]

[spoilers removed]"

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Response to Shannon

(view spoiler)[Shannon you raise some good points - whatever Seattle is doing is being undone in some other place - we are not taking this seriously at all. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Hello everyone! I hope that those in the US are enjoying the holiday! Since this is our first Monthly Read offering and we have started a little late, and with the holiday today, we will continue discussing the Prologue and Chapter I through the week. But you should be starting to look forward to/read for next week which will include Chapters II, II, and IV.

Reposting some topics for discussion:

(view spoiler)[Topics for discussion:

a) How many of you were not aware that our planet was under such attack by humans and that so many species have disappeared already? Isn't it a wonder that our 24x7 cable news coverage is not covering something so vital to our existence and talking about it non stop - it is that important.

b) When you read the prologue and the author's words - how did you feel about the planet, what our country or yours is doing about global warming, environmental pollutants, fossil fuels, etc.?

c) When you think about how humans go about their lives today which is different from our parents and grandparents - what do you think we are doing now that is vastly different than what our parents/grandparents did before us?

d) Do you think the politicians and the government of your country is doing enough to save the planet or is everybody ignoring the problem?

e) We are about to read a book which may have a very big impact upon how you feel about the state of the planet - what are your initial thoughts? (hide spoiler)]

[Shannon]

Quanjun wrote: I was under the impression...(view spoiler)[ that human driven climate change has always been controversial in the US. Were you taught that climate change is largely caused by the actions of humans or about green house effect? As they're two different things but extremely closely related topics. . .But I was still happy to read that Obama is pushing strongly for a change in environmental policies (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[ We were taught that the CFC's in aerosol cans were depleting the ozone layer. Since they don't occur naturally in the quantities and concentrations that humans were using the this was certainly human driven. And we had a family friend from the University of Washington who was stationed at Antarctica to measure the hole.

The "controversy" in the US regarding the politics and credibility of climate control I think comes down to an attempt on the part of the media to appear unbiased. No matter the veracity of an issue they have to find the spokesperson of the contrary viewpoint and give them equal time. So, if you interview 3 scientists who've just finished three experiments that indicate a result, then you have to find three crack pots who can say "Not so!"

I don't think that they should. I think that the reporters should introduce the crack pots as crack pots. As in: "So now you've heard from Dr. Which of MIT, and Dr. So-and-so of UCLA,and now we will hear the wild speculations of a random customer at the mall who struggled to graduate from middle schools and didn't finish her freshman year of high school." (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Shannon I hear you and I am laughing here after reading what you posted. This political correctness is being carried overboard by the 24x7 entertainment news organizations. I miss the days of the news which was handled as factual and neutral presentations - no embellishments and no attempts to add frills for the uninformed.

[Teri]

Response to Shannon

(view spoiler)[I agree, Shannon! I'm not a fan of 24/7 news organizations and the way they spin the experts is just one of the many reasons why. I also chuckle when they keep asking the same question (just in a different way) over and over and the "expert" basically says the same answer. What a waste of time! (hide spoiler)]

Shannon wrote: "Quanjun wrote: I was under the impression...[spoilers removed]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

I still remember the CNN coverage of the Malaysian airline that has yet to be found - the poor souls.

[Teri]

All, I have placed an entry in the Glossary for George Cuvier for those that are interested in learning more about him.

[Dale]

I enjoyed the prologue, almost as much as reading a good mystery. Chapter One did not disappoint. She writes as a novelist. If it came off as a scientific paper, I do not know if I would continue. Right now, I think that I see her direction, but we shall see.

[Teri]

Hi Dale! Glad you are joining us. I do like Kolbert's writing. I was sucked in from the beginning. Any specific thoughts/comments to any of the discussion questions?

[G]

Teri wrote: "All, I have placed an entry in the Glossary for George Cuvier for those that are interested in learning more about him."

Thanks, Teri!

[Dey]

Thanks Teri.

[Andra]

Hi, G! Thanks for the encouragement. Glad you're back and well enough to participate.

[Dey]

Teri wrote: "Chapter One

Came across this article today and thought it coincided well with our conversation.

60,000 Antelope Died in Four Days and No One Knows Why
by TIA GHOSE, LIVESCIENCE

In May 2015, near..."

(view spoiler)[We learn that extinction can start this way in our book The Sixth Extinction. This is terrible and somewhat frightening if the cause and cure isn't determined. Hopefully not another mass species wide die-off in the works like we saw in Chapter One. Yikes! (hide spoiler)]

[Dey]

Teri wrote: "Hi Dey! We're glad you're joining in the conversation.

Response to Dey

[spoilers removed]"

Hi Teri, Unsure at this juncture. But I would bet that changes in habitat brought about in part by man could be what caused the fungus among us to thrive and destroy. I am guessing we may find out later in the book.

[Dey]

Teri wrote: "Leslie, thanks for the link. Such a beautiful place! And thanks for the kind words. Four years clear and counting.

Responses to the current discussion:

[spoilers removed]"

I will jump in here and say in answer to Teri's question; no I don't think it is too late and I think there is so much we can do. Like Andra said, look at what is happening to the bees. Monsanto and the seed / pesticide scam is driven by greed and indifference. When I see how such a large group of us are ignorant selfish deniers, it gives me serious doubt. Those of us that know need to do the work for them.

[Teri]

Great points, Dey. Don't forget the spoiler tags when responding to specific points we're reading about.

Response to Dey

(view spoiler)[I am really passionate about the bee issues and Colony Collapse (I'll put a glossary entry on Colony Collapse Disorder in the non-spoiler thread). We've started a small apiary on our ranch just because of what we had read/learned about CCD. A lot of people, by now, know about CCD but ignore it. Not enough is being done quickly enough. So I certainly echo your concern. I noticed that on Monsanto's webpage, they have a section on CCD and what "they are doing about the issue" which is just "education" but they are not making the changes that are needed to stop the issue. The issue are their seeds and the pesticides that are used with the seeds and on the crops. Shame on them and on Bayer. I really hope that there will be a change before bees are completely lost. (hide spoiler)]

[G]

in reply to Shannons message 82, (view spoiler)[ I agree with all of you about the media, but I think we need to be careful using the term crack pot. Galileo, Mendel, Turing, Goddard (I could go on) were all considered crack pots by the media and by the professionals of their day and yet we have great respect for them now. I personally have tried reasoned arguments with some folks I know who are against the concept of climate change because of the perceived relationship the term has with a political party, and for no other reason. The arguments failed. So I think we need more books like this, which are pretty well documented in an unbiased way and we need to get the nay-sayers to read them. (hide spoiler)]

[G]

Limitations in Cuvier's thoughts (view spoiler)[ I found it interesting that Cuvier, with his rigid belief in extinction basically believed that since immediate (in time) species adaptation was impossible species could also not adapt over time, and chance alterations would result in death of the individual. A flawed theorem. He seems not to think of any environment change other than those that were cataclysmic. And yet this was the person who produced the first stratigraphic map of the Paris basin. Very interesting! (hide spoiler)]

[G]

In reply to Teri message 96 (view spoiler)[ Yes shame on them, but they are paying for their candidates to get elected in the US and in other countries. What chance do those of us who see an impending tragedy have? I am very disillusioned and saddened. Very few bees and butterflies this summer. And yet my neighbors continue to insist on using pesticides on their lawns. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

All great comments, G. Very insightful. (view spoiler)[I concur with your comments to Shannon about using care when labeling someone as a crackpot. Of course, the sentiment is that with the big news media, you can't always trust the "expert". I still have not gotten to Cuvier. Heading there tonight. (hide spoiler)]

[Kathy]

Hi all, I finally got a copy of the book from the Georgia Library system. As I told Bentley earlier, when I asked our local librarian to find a copy for me she was horrified. "Isn't that an unnatural history?" I took that to mean evolution and extinction, in her eyes, aren't real so you can bet she feels no need to change the status quo. I have also heard that certain economically emerging countries (i.e. China) feels that it is unfair to be asked to curb its pollution rate and thus slow its growth when other countries (USA, Europe) were free to pollute all they wanted and grow economically strong. There seems to be as many reasons as grains of sand on a beach why people don't take this issue seriously. Can we reverse this trend? Not unless something drastically affects the lifestyle of each and every person. Let's face it, people have had to be moved off small islands in the South Pacific due to rising ocean levels, and we still have debates over whether there is global warming. It is ironic (view spoiler)[ that the author, in Chapter 1, states that wide-spread human traveling can cause parasites to be inadvertently carried to regions thus infecting species with no natural defenses to these parasites. Yet the first thing she does when learning about the disappearance of the golden frogs is to hop on a plane and travel to Panama to investigate this matter. (hide spoiler)] Just saying . . .
Oh, Bentley, I am 3% Neandrathal. I am afraid to know what that means! Oh, and please don't tell my librarian!

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Response to Kathy

(view spoiler)[Kathy - Welcome to the conversation - I could not believe your librarian expressed views like she did for a couple of reasons - first, she did not know what she was talking about and second - it was none of her business what book you were requesting even if it went against her personal views. I think I was more surprised at the strong bias expressed in a city, town or municipal library. In some ways - I find her attitude to be a form of censorship - she certainly made you feel uncomfortable about trying to read an outstanding book which she obviously knew nothing about but had strong views on in spite of the above. I think China's rate of growth might be slowing in spite of their pollution rate which is grim and India's is probably not far behind. But the USA should know better and I think it is for very selfish reasons folks do not want to take this matter seriously. Old habits die hard and I do hope everyone wakes up before it is too late. I think that in chapter one - that she went to the area with a control group of scientists who are frankly trying to rescue various species to bring them to a safe controlled environment so that they do not become extinct. So many species were not able to be saved because they did not get to them quickly enough and now are gone forever. (hide spoiler)]

As far as your librarian - you are safe here (smile).

[Kathy]

Response to Bentley

The sad part about this librarian is that she is in a position to influence children and young adults whether she realizes it or not. And, yes, I do monitor what books I get through the library system around here. I was raised by that old adage that the nail that sticks out gets hammered. That being said (view spoiler)[ I wish that I always followed my head and did what I know is right and not try to justify actions taken selfishly because I simply want to do them. I suppose most people behave in the same manner. I am not sure if it is possible or desirable to try to force people to behave in certain ways. I also feel (IMHO) that we have overpopulated this planet to the point that it puts a strain on every living thing and every resource available. Not sure how we handle this situation since selfishly I want grandchildren some day and I don't want to die too early. Guess we each just have to try our best but personally I feel we are past the tipping point and moving into uncharted territory. (hide spoiler)]