The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion
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A Harlot High and Low
Honoré de Balzac Collection
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A Harlot High and Low - Part One - A View of the Open Hall - Moneybags in Despair
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On the Kindle edition (which should also be the Gutenberg edition), the last line reads as follows: "Like all incurables, the Baron clutched at everything that seemed at all hopeful; he promised himself that he would have Lucien watched by some one besides Louchard and his men - Louchard, the sharpest commercial detective in Paris - to whom he had applied about a fortnight since."On my Kindle, it is on page 70 (14%).
Hope this helps!
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Thanks Lynn
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1. What hold does the "priest" have over Lucien? Over Esther?
2. What power does Esther have that seems to make men instantly fall in love?
3. Balzac seems to indicated first by Esther's illness then by the Baron's that you can die from love. What is your opinion?
4. Is it possible for a harlot to become society? Why?
5. What does the story, so far, tell us about Parisian society?
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I was a little worried at the beginning finding it difficult to immerse myself in the novel. I felt as if I was watching a foreign film dubbed in English...You know the movies where the lip movements are completely out of sync with what's being heard, or in my case, read? It was driving me nuts, but things took a turn for the better once I reached "The Torpedo" section...Leave it to a woman to spice things up nicely amongst all of these drab frenchman! The Priest, Carlos Herrera, is also another great asset to the beginnings of the story. I do wonder quite a bit about these two characters...What is it about them that makes them so enigmatic; Esther's prowess seducing men, and Carlos' ability to hold power over the four characters (Esther, Lucien, Asia and Europe) ...Who is the Priest/Carlos...Is he the Devil, or would that be too easy? I also think the city of Paris plays an important character in this narrative. I knew we would be reading about its underbelly, but what I didn't realize is how tightly wound the lives of the uppercrust and those less gentile are. What does the story, so far, tell us about Parisian society?
Parisian Society is a reflection of the Parisian streets, it's severely stratified, but also deeply interconnected. The major streets are full of crowds; known for commerce, fashion and the arts; the streets which run adjacent to them, the narrow streets, dark and muddy, where trades are carried on which do not care about the external appearance, take on at night a mysterious physiognomy and one full of contrasts...You can't get to the popular areas without crossing through the seedier ones. I'll post more this evening...
P.S. Loved the way Moneybags in despair ended, by the way! I'm keen on finding out how this will play out between the Baron Nucingen, Lucien and Esther...Well, and of course, the Priest/Carlos Herrera.
It also took me a bit of doing to get into the novel, but I think I've gotten over the hump now and am curious about where it's all going. I don't mind not knowing the backstory of the characters who have appeared in previous Balzac novels, and I think am slowly getting them sorted out in my head. Although as an aside, I made the mistake of starting to read the introduction and got stuck with spoilers, and now I can't unsee what I read. Anyway, perhaps I will forget them in a few weeks. :)This is my first Balzac and the thing I can't shake is how similar the writing is to Les Miserables - the descriptive chapter headings, the way scenes or situations are described, and of course the similar time period and taking place in Paris. My favorite chapter heading so far is A boring chapter, since it describes four years of happiness, although I was not excited to actually read it having had been told it was going to be boring.
I also am wondering about the "priest" Carlos. It was stated that he's not really a priest, correct? And that he was not wanted, looked down upon, or something to that effect, from his home country. So now I want to know more about him and why he is taking it upon himself to watch out for Lucien and his happiness. How did he come upon Lucien and decide to take him under his wing in the first place?
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I am a little over half-way through the first week's reading. I loved Ami's comparison of reading this to watching a foreign movie dubbed in English. I have two translations, and I go back and forth between them some, and marvel at how different they are. Each conveys some information the other doesn't, so having both is helpful at times when I am struggling. It makes me wonder, though, how much of this came from the original. I wish I could read French. This morning I found myself wondering what it is like for people who don't read English to try to read something by Virgina Woolf translated into their language.
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Good question. I think there is usually something lost in translation, but I do think translators try to get the gist of it right.
Deborah wrote: "Since I've never read Balzac before, I wanted to post the discussion questions while they are fresh in my mind:1. What hold does the "priest" have over Lucien? Over Esther?
2. What power does ..."
What hold does the "priest" have over Lucien? Over Esther?
Well, there's definitely something very peculiar going on between Lucien and the Priest; however, it seems, it's the Priest who is more worried about the true nature of their of relationship being exposed...Not so much Lucien? On more than one occasion, the Priest has been found in situations slightly worried that his scheme has been brought to light. In the most present, when Lucien and Esther meet after their separation for the first time, Carlos is telling them of his plan to raise Lucien's status. There's a moment where the exchange of words between Carlos and Lucien alluded to his demise at the hands of Carlos if Lucien didn't adhere to his plan...
'with God's help or mine (which is more to the point), will take his seat one day on the peers' benches...'
Or the hulks...' said Lucien interrupting the man.
'Be silent,' cried Carlos, clapping his big hand over Lucien's mouth. 'A secret like that to a woman!...'he breathed in Lucien's ear (70).
There's definitely something very conspicuous between Carlos and Lucien...It seems of the "pact with the devil" persuasion, but I'm not entirely sure? According to the rumors in Parisian society surrounding the relationship between the two...
When such questions were asked by those who had caught a glimpse of the association, till then concealed, the answer they seemed to discover was rather horrifying, and Lucien had only been aware of it for a few days past. Carlos was ambitious enough for the two, his conduct proved that to those who knew him, and they all believed that Lucien was the priest's natural son. (62)
Whatever it is, the priest is going to great lengths to conceal it.
As far as his hold on Esther...Well, I think it's Lucien. He's holding Lucien's path to success over her head by making her think stepping out of bounds in hiding their relationship everything will go up in smoke. She will have ruined Lucien.
What power does Esther have that seems to make men instantly fall in love?
This goes hand in hand with her translated nickname, "The Torpedo" or la torpilleHaving read the introduction, I was aware of how Esther's feminine wiles would be expressed. I think she has a very penetrating charm, a charm that travels through the depths of society with the utmost ease...She's a stealth bomber (29). Here's a little backstory from the Heppenstall translation...
While I was known to be translating this book, a question I was asked by both French and knowledgable English admirers of Balzac was what I proposed to do about Esther's nickname. The reader wouldn't have long in finding out, and I fancy he might have been jolted. The english translator of Félicien Maceau's book on the world of Balzac has, I see, let the name stand in French as la Torpille. I have been bolder. I have allowed Esther to be referred to as "the Torpedo," fully aware that this lends her associations we might nowadays think more characteristic of some bombshell, Esther being neither a bombshell nor (except on an early page, through Balzac's forgetfulness) blonde. The word torpille is French for a numb-fish, cramp-fish or electric ray (not to be confused with the sting ray). "Torpedo" was the Latin word for this fish. When moored or floating mines were devised as an instrument of naval warfare, we and the French both named them after it. You touched them and got a shock. The French and ourselves now both reserve the designation torpille or "torpedo" to self-propelled weapon originally called a torpille locomotrice or "locomotive torpedo". Neither we nor they now think of a moored or floating mine as a torpedo. The word torpille...may still be used on the Mediterranean...The fish itself is, I dare say, less common in our waters (xiii-xiv).
Balzac seems to indicated first by Esther's illness then by the Baron's that you can die from love. What is your opinion?
Oh, absolutely, but not in the literal sense. It's not the "broken heart" that will kill you, but the misery and depression associated with the pains of the matter that will if left unattended. Taking into consideration the time period, yes, I do feel one can die of a broken heart. Esther is literally sick to the point of death until Carlos breathed life back into her by telling her she would be allowed to see Lucien again; Lucien, for the past fifteen months (I think) has been killing time and not living in Esther's absence; and the Baron has become fixated, if not obsessed with finding out the identity of who this mystery woman, known to be Esther, really is. Ongoing feelings of sadness can make you really sick; Esther, Lucien and now the Baron, exemplify this...In the end, maybe even killing one of them?
I'm sure translators try to get the gist of it right, but they have to make choices sometimes. For example, I recently read the Fagles translation of The Aeneid. A NY Times review compared particular passages as translated by Fagles and by Fitzgerald in The Aeneid. The two were very different, because Fitzgerald worked to keep the poetry of the original, while Fagles wrote in free verse and tried to convey more of the connotations of the original Latin. Both were legitimate choices, but they produced rather different results.
Casceil wrote: "I am a little over half-way through the first week's reading. I loved Ami's comparison of reading this to watching a foreign movie dubbed in English. I have two translations, and I go back and fo..."Linda wrote: "It also took me a bit of doing to get into the novel, but I think I've gotten over the hump now and am curious about where it's all going. I don't mind not knowing the backstory of the characters ..."
My favorite chapter heading so far is A boring chapter, since it describes four years of happiness, although I was not excited to actually read it having had been told it was going to be boring.
HA! Very funny! I broke into a smile when I read the heading, and also felt a little apprehension because of how I had to work through the preliminary sections! :)
It was stated that he's not really a priest, correct? And that he was not wanted, looked down upon, or something to that effect, from his home country.
Are you referring to the moment where Esther sees the priest in disguise from her window while she was with Lucien...Or was it something else?
I'm confused as to his affiliation with the priesthood. He affiliates himself with Saint Sulpice and served as a Camarilla (a person who holds no direct office in a King's court, but has the ability to pull strings behind the scenes) in King Ferdinand's court, I think? Having served in this fashion, In the eyes of the world, such conduct proved him to be a superior man (60). He's protected against curiosity by diplomatic silence and he lived moreover, as priests employed on secret missions traditionally live, very obscurely (61). Did I misread something?
How did he come upon Lucien and decide to take him under his wing in the first place?
It's in our Introduction, page V. I also posted this bit in the reading schedule thread.
It makes me wonder, though, how much of this came from the original.
My impression from what Heppenstall wrote in his introduction was that Balzac was difficult to translate because of his unique writing style...Did you think this too? There are insoluble problems...snags in the narrative, for sure (X). I wish I could read it in French as well! I would be interesting in knowing some of the differences you're catching between the two translations, if you get a chance...Thanks!
Ami wrote: "Are you referring to the moment where Esther sees the priest in disguise from her window while she was with Lucien...Or was it something else?"I'm going to have to review and find the exact passages, but the ones you mentioned are not the ones I am thinking of. But, I could have completely misread what I did. I will check tonight when I have access to my book.
It's in our Introduction, page V. I also posted this bit in the reading schedule thread.
I skimmed the intro and didn't want to have too much given away. But I mean from the actual story so far, I don't remember being told how or why Carlos takes Lucien under his protection.
Linda wrote: "Ami wrote: "Are you referring to the moment where Esther sees the priest in disguise from her window while she was with Lucien...Or was it something else?"I'm going to have to review and find the ..."
I'm going to have to review and find the exact passages, but the ones you mentioned are not the ones I am thinking of.
He too seems to have a sordid past and even still at present, Linda. The last paragraph in Interior as familiar to some as unknown by others, led me to think the priest may not truly be a priest, but maybe somebody who hides behind the ecclesiastic facade...
The man seemed to know his way about household of this kind, he knew where everything was. He had mad himself at home. This gift of being everywhere at home belongs only to kings, light women and thieves (39).
I skimmed the intro and didn't want to have too much given away. But I mean from the actual story so far, I don't remember being told how or why Carlos takes Lucien under his protection.
As it pertains to the current novel, you're right, we have not been told how Lucien fell under Carlos' protection, there's only been speculation; but the backstory in the intro does give a brief account of where the previous story ends and where this one picks up.
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I'm going to have to review and find the ..."
Carlos takes control of Lucien in a previous book
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I'm going to have to review and find the ..."
I recall Lucien saying Carlos wasn't a priest.
Deborah wrote: "Linda wrote: "Ami wrote: "Are you referring to the moment where Esther sees the priest in disguise from her window while she was with Lucien...Or was it something else?"I'm going to have to review..."
Yes, this is what I was referring to, the priest was in disguise as a constable when she notices him. Lucien calls him an old Lascar who only believes in the devil, but then Balzac writes, Caught by anyone less devoted than Esther, this gleam cast on the secrets of the false priest might have proved Lucien's ultimate downfall (69). Lucien is tempting fate...Ouch!
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I, too, am about halfway through this week's reading. I found the first few pages very difficult and had to read them over. The scene between the Spanish priest and Esther was more interesting for me, though I agree with Robin that she's a more romantic than realistic character. I've been enjoying small bits like the comparison between prostitutes and critics, which I thought was very apt, and the moment in which Balzac compares the temptation to make over Esther with creative drive, turning art into morality--I think that was the phrase. I'm wondering whether this is going to be an ongoing theme in the novel; I'll have to watch for it.
Robin wrote: "I'm about halfway through this week's selection and for the first part, I found it an outstanding sleep aid! However, once I got to Esther it got more interesting. I am a bit annoyed with Balzac's ..."I think it's not very realistic but I guess we are still in a more "romantic" genre here.
We're at it's peak, actually... The romantic period, that is.The novel takes place tentatively in 1824.
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Several of Balzac's novels have the tone of fairy tales. I wrote a paper years ago looking at Pere Goriot as a typical hero's journey with a fairy godmother, descent to the underworld, etc. La Peau de Chagrin has a magical skin. Here Carlos is like an evil sorcerer, seeming to have unlimited power and money. Lucien and Esther are like babes in the wood or Hansel and Gretel. They come across as very young and innocent, despite some of their behavior being less than innocent.
The scene of Lucien and Esther in their dressing gowns after their reunion probably couldn't have been depicted in an English or American novel of the time. I am reminded of the musical The Music Man where where the town ladies are scandalized by the librarian who offers books by "Chaucer, Rabelais - and Balzac!"
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Nucingen's French with a German accent is quite amusing to figure out. There's something of the fairy tale about him too, the love at first sight and the fact that everyone agrees his symptoms can only be caused by love. Or maybe it's more Arabian Nights, which Balzac also mentions.
I always find it interesting to think about how differently we view passionate love today than in many 19th century novels. Today we think it's healthy to "move on" from a hopeless passion, and unhealthy to self-immolate for love. Not so in this novel! Although Herrera is the villain, I don't think his suggestions about Esther sacrificing herself for love of Lucien would have fallen on such receptive ears if he hadn't been spouting the received ideas of the time. It's interesting that the jacket copy describes Herrera as one of the worst literary villains of all time, or something like that, yet Balzac allows him to be moved by Esther occasionally--even if, in other descriptions, he's like an "Alp."
As others have stated I too had difficulty getting into this novel. When I first started reading it, I had concerns about weather or not I would be able to get through it. I had to struggle a bit through the opening chapters about the masked ball but once we were introduced to Esther and got to learn more about the characters the story became more interesting to read. What power does Esther have that seems to make men instantly fall in love?
In some ways it reminds me of the description given to another character of a very similar nature to Esther's in a different book I am reading:
"I suppose you'll see her. You'll be disappointing at first. Then, without being able to say how or when it happened, you'll find you forgotten your disappointment, and the first thing you know you'll be telling her your life's history, and all your troubles and hopes.....and ten you're caught, absolutely caught."
I think the thing which makes Esther have such a seductive power is that I think with her it goes beyond just her attractiveness or physical sensuality. But as someone else already mentioned, it is a penetrating charm of hers. it is some aspect of her personalty, a charisma she possess. As well I think she is able to convey a sincerity of feeling which touches people and I think is generally uncharacteristic in harlots
As seen with Carlos, in spite of his unfeeling nature, and his ruthlessness and cold hardness the depth of Esther's passion, sorrow, gratitude, at moments does begin to move him.
What hold does the "priest" have over Lucien? Over Esther?
Carlos is an interesting character. There is certainly something about him that is inherently unlikable and there is something rather creepy in the way in which he is attempting to remake Esther to fit into the vision of what he determines will be a suitable companion for Lucian. And the two maids which are under his power Asia and Europe are rather unsettling.
Yet at the same time though his methods might seem to be distributing he does seem to be doing things to help give people better lives. He rose Lucian up from nothing and his helping him advance his ambitions, and instead of simply finding a way to remove Esther from Lucian's life altogether he is helping them be together in his own way.
But as in dealing with the devil it makes one wonder what the ultimate cost in the end will be.
I think the hold he has over people is in his ability to manipulate their lives and the fact that after he helps rise them up out of the gutter, if they do not fall in line he can just as easily cast them out again.
As he said of Asia once, she dreads returning back to her old life and he holds Lucian over Esther's head and before him Lucian was nothing. So he holds the fate of all their lives within the palm of his hand.
I thought it was quite apt that Blazac made a reference to Richelieu and Mazarin, who where the villainous Cardinals in the Three Musketeer books.
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I'm still working on the first week's reading. Part of what is slowing me down is that I still keep comparing two translations. Someone asked for an example of how they are different. Here is one sentence from p. 72 of the Penguin edition and location 1120 of the other edition:Penguin:
"The Italian genius may recount the tale of Othello, the English genius put it on the stage; but it is nature's right alone to express jealousy more magnificently and completely than either England or Italy in a single glance."
Other translation:
"The genius of Italy can invent the story of Othello; the genius of England can adapt it to the stage; but nature alone has the power of being more splendid and more perfect than England and Italy in the expression of jealousy."
Both translations say roughly the same thing, but to me they feel very different. I like each in different ways, which makes it hard to choose which to read.
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Robin, I agree the second one is more colloquial and modern. I think it is also reads more like poetry. But I wind up reading both translation of a lot of sections, because each gives me slightly different information, and when I put the two together I feel like the text makes more sense.
Robin wrote: "To me the 2nd one seems more colloquial and modern. The first one seems a bit more formal and classical."Casceil wrote: "I'm still working on the first week's reading. Part of what is slowing me down is that I still keep comparing two translations. Someone asked for an example of how they are different. Here is on..."
I asked for some of the differences you are noticing, and thank you for posting them! It's so interesting how both translations convey the same information, while leaving dissimilar impressions...I too would be in a pickle as to which one to read. Thank you, again. :)
Well, I am late, I know... hahahaAbout the different translations... I was going to read the french version but I was too slow to read it and I ended up choosing the portuguese one as it is my native language. I know it's not the exact same thing but I am ok with it as long as I can understand the context of the book.
Like most of you, I had some difficulties but now I am amazed with the characters. Specially Esther. She is growing on me. She seems sensual and yet delicate and innocent... A harlot and an angel. That must be why everyone is in love with her.
I found so beautiful that part where it says:
‘None of the feminine powers you name ever picked pockets,’ said Finot, ‘and this pretty rat paddled in the mud.’
‘Like the seed of a lily in leaf-mould,’ Vernou replied, ‘she took up nourishement there, it brought her into bloom. Whence her superiority…’
And then they also talk about her ability to laugh and make others laugh too.
She went through hard times and that made her who she is now (in that moment of the story). And she still laughs. These characteristics are the reasons, in my opinion, why Esther has such a power over everyone, which kind of answers question #2.
I have many others favorite parts so far but I would write too much if I shared them all… lol
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About the different translations... I was going to read the french version but I was too slow to read it and I ended up choosing the portuguese one as it is my na..."
Rose you can't write too much in a discussion thread :)
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It does feel as if we have dropped into the middle of a longer story-is the reason for Herrera's hold over Lucien ever revealed in this novel, or does one have to have read the earlier book?
Thanks Ami for printing the information about the translation of "the Torpedo". I don't think, given what you've written, that it was a particularly good choice of translation-the nickname seems much more vulgar and brash than Esther is in reality-Torpedo suggests something that chases down it's prey, while the original was much more something that you brushed up against and were stung (much as happens to the Baron in the last part of this section).
I was surprised, after Esther spent 18 months being "groomed" into the appearance of a society Lady, that she is then cloistered under guard for Lucien to meet only in private. I assumed the whole point of the grooming was to transform her into someone unrecognizable by her previous clientele so that she could take her place by Lucien's side in some fashion. Then, despite her conversion, she is set up as a Jewish widow.
I was also surprised that everyone assumes that a man in his 60's who begins to waste away is lovesick-surely people died back then of a variety of wasting illnesses other than lovesickness!
Frances wroteI was surprised, after Esther spent 18 months being "groomed" into the appearance of a society Lady, that she is then cloistered under guard for Lucien to meet only in private. I assumed the whole point of the grooming was to transform her into someone unrecognizable by her previous clientele so that she could take her place by Lucien's side in some fashion. Then, despite her conversion, she is set up as a Jewish widow.: ".."
Yes that surprised me as well. I thought she was going to be transformed and then renter society with a new identity and presumed respectable lady who could be acceptable for Lucian.
The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910
Books mentioned in this topic
The Aeneid (other topics)The Aeneid (other topics)
This week we are reading from A View of the Opera Hall - Moneybags in despair.
Pages 17 - 88
Last line: "Like all men who are desperately ill, he accepted anything which held out hope, and he promised himself to have Lucien watched, by other minions than those of Louchard, the cleverest Commercial Guard in Paris, to whom, during the past fortnight, he'd had recourse.