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What's UP with Ted Dekker books?
I'm not necessarily condemning as much as comparing. WE should all know how much evil and abuse is shown in the Bible - and we look on it with horror and disgust. God is showing us this for a reason.But should our Christian entertainment be filled with such? Maybe? It sure gets the point across. But now I just want to read a book about a little girl and her pet lamb for a break from despair.
What's funny is that a lot of Christians don't read Dekker and the rest because he is too sanitized. I mean, yeah he and people like Peretti use violence and such, but it's appropriate for the Christian market and usually not all that intense. If it's affecting you I can't help but think you have managed to be sheltered to a degree I can't help but envy at times.
My favorite book by dekker is House. Finding the light in darkness! Love it...they even made it into a movie. However, as we all know the books are always better. Three is also another of my favs from him.
The violence didn't bother me too much; I think because it's in word form and I don't actually have to see it. I DO feel uncomfortable watching blood and gore on television.I don't like how Christian fiction places "limits" on what authors can and cannot include in their stories. If a person doesn't like violence in their fiction, then they should read books that don't contain violence instead of demanding that ALL Christian fiction contain no violence.
But what does God say is good for our souls?
I believe that Christian fiction, even at its most violent, when compared to the Bible, is qiite tame. Sometimes, to understand the importance of God's Light and Love, one should understand the depth of human darkness, otherwise we may fall to the trap of believing in the heresy of mankind being inherently good.
I guess my take on the whole violence question in Christian Fiction is if it's covered in the word its ok for me. God in his divine wisdom thought it important enough to leave a written record for us to read. Everything is in there from gang rape, mutilation, prostitution, war, cataclysmic plagues. etc. It's kinda amazing to me that I can write about prayer just fine, but can't touch on sex, when so many stories and scriptures address the situation. I find that whatever standards exist in the word in its description, I feel comfortable using similar standards in describing similar issues. How did the authors of the Bible talk to the people of their day? Using the same idea I think about what language will it take for my reader to understand the message/picture I want to form in their mind. It's very hard for us authors to write for our brothers and sisters in Christ. Great subject though!
I've read two Ted Dekker books - the one really blessed me; the other I just couldn't get into. But I skimmed over some parts that were graphic - I find I'm growing more sensitive to stuff over the years, not less! But when it comes to the Bible, I think when we read it we are protected because it is God's word. I read Judges again a few months ago and that is really raw. However, I didn't get nightmares or have stuff stay with me in a way that plagued me. Fiction, even when it's Christian-themed, doesn't guarantee the same. I think it's wise to be open to the voice of the Holy Spirit in whatever we read outside the Bible, even stuff that claims to be Christian. Not all of it glorifies Christ.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things" (Phil 4:8).
Yeah Phil 4:8 Is a great verse yet context is everything.Jesus is the ultimate story teller. He's our example. When he told a story to his listeners about a man that had been beaten and robbed and left for half dead (i.e. the victim in the parable of the good Samaritan) He gave enough detail that his listeners were able to grasp the significance of that event. It makes the act of the priest and levite and Samaritan more poignant BECAUSE of the descriptive condition Jesus gave, (and other things of course)Many of his hearers would have been offended when they heard that story.
Oh don't get me wrong. I'm not into gratuitous violence myself. As an author I know we have it drummed into our heads; one of the dictum's of fiction writing is to "SHOW don't tell"
I think sometimes we writers in our zeal to follow this dictum forget that we are still "telling" a story that might not require a certain level of descriptive prose. Gosh I'd hate to give you nightmares! Now Stephen King...I'd think he think it a compliment! :-)
But seriously, sometimes the graphic nature of a medium is necessary to shock us out of our complacency. For example, we might use the word abortion. But that's a very clinical and sanitized word. It's one thing to say it. It's another to describe the procedure. It's only then does the gravity of the act really impact you. It's dirty, disgusting, bloody, but isn't that what sin is? Native Son, The Jungle, Uncle Toms Cabin, all were very hard things for people to read, and incited controversy and anger. But things got better because someone wrote a fictional work that caused people to look at themselves and society. That's redemptive. That glorifies Christ to me.
The writer has to know when that level of detail is necessary. We as readers I think should let the writer know if its warranted or not. We authors like to know what our readers think!
Phil 4:8 lets us know of course that we can choose what we should meditate on. We are the only ones that can determine what we can put into our spirits. I know I try to be careful on how I judge other Christian readings. Especially, in light of the fact that the writers of the Bible spoke to the people using the language of their day to get their point across.
Some things I think might not be ok, might actually be OK with God, I know I won't profess on what totally does that Oh I've got my ideas. But so did people in Jesus's day.
Sin of course is sin. Often the glory can be found in God's victory over it, his ability to use it for good. The wonderful thing about the power of Christ is that when one looks at the cross, you see the ugliness of sin, AND the beauty of God's love. I would submit one can't fully appreciate one without the other.
Christian Fiction is one of those areas where I think we are are struggling to live out our own salvation in fear and trembling. It's definitely reflective in our literature that's for sure. It's a great. One I doubt will be resolved this side of Heaven! :-)
I haven't read Ted Dekker yet, I've heard he's a great author. I'm looking forward to reading one of his books which is on my list of too reads. I have his book Identity on my list. I'd hope that for any ugliness he puts in his book their is an equal level of beauty. Any clue on what I should expect?
I have absolutely loved what I have read from Ted Dekker so far. My first exposure was the Circle series, then I read House. What I like about him, verses most Christian stories, is (like many of you said) it is raw and real. There is no candy coating life. Hell is real, Satan is real. We get so focused on the Hallmark side of Christianity that we neglect the fact that we are in a serious spiritual battle. When people write Christian novels, it takes the view of: life is hard, but then they find God, and life turns out all right full of flowers and rainbows because God loves everyone. Yes, God loves everyone. But he is also a Holy God who hates sin. And Ted Dekker is expert at showing the evilness of sin, showing that it isn't something to be taken lightly. This is why we have so many luke-warm christians today, because Christians focus on God's love for people so their sins are "ok" because God loves everyone. Sin is never ok. But Ted Dekker also always adds the beautiful side of Christianity and Christ's sacrificial love that cleanses us from the evil sin and makes us free in Christ.
Swissysmile (Sarah) wrote: "I have absolutely loved what I have read from Ted Dekker so far. My first exposure was the Circle series, then I read House. What I like about him, verses most Christian stories, is (like many of y..."Well said.
Good responses everyone. Fun thoughts.I'm reading the Books of Mortals series now. FORBIDDEN starts out pretty good. A fair bit of gross violence of course.
It gets better. There's not just violence in that one (I think Tosca Lee was responsible for the throat slitting scene), but shows how religious rules can be manipulated by cunning madmen.
I don't like Ted Dekker's writing and have never been able to get through one of his novels, but since there is violence recorded in the scripture, I wouldn't judge a book on just whether or not there is going to be violence. How much you want to read, of course, is your buisness. But there are other Christian writers out there with violence in their fiction, including y/a. The question I always ask is, does it fit with the story and a true Christian fight or is it just there for dark thrills?
That's my worry exactly Karin: Is brutal torture there for dark thrills?Does the Bible have any slow detailed torture scenes? Most that I can think of are very quick and to the point.
I have not read any of his books and do not plan to at any time- mainly because I don't want any more nightmares, after reading the back cover of his new ones I did! :(
Rod wrote: "That's my worry exactly Karin: Is brutal torture there for dark thrills?Does the Bible have any slow detailed torture scenes? Most that I can think of are very quick and to the point."
Exactly.
I do recall the crucifixion being detailed in all four gospels and taking up more than one page each.
J.S. wrote: "Not all of Ted's books are gruesome."Sure, but I still don't like his books; my dislike doesn't stem from gratuitous violence. I have never been able to get that far in his books.
Karin wrote: "J.S. wrote: "Not all of Ted's books are gruesome."Sure, but I still don't like his books; my dislike doesn't stem from gratuitous violence. I have never been able to get that far in his books."
Have you read Heaven's Wager? It's his first novel and quite a bit different from his newer ones.
Don't misunderstand me: I'm really enjoying Dekker's books. I'm on my fourth one now.Does the Bible really give explicit gory/bloody details of Jesus on the cross? Or just the carefully accurate information?
I have never read a Ted dekker book primarily because of the book covers. They do not call my attention and the jacket covers give me the sense that they are crime dramas. I may be be wrong in my assertion so please correct me.
Jaime wrote: "I have never read a Ted dekker book primarily because of the book covers. They do not call my attention and the jacket covers give me the sense that they are crime dramas. I may be be wrong in my a..."His novel "Adam" is like a supernatural FBI thriller, but he also writes fantasy.
Are any of them based like a history or historical fiction?
To answer Rod, I believe that it is, in my conscience that Mr. Dekker claims to write that because he uses the excuse that the Bible has Violence. It does , but not graphic. The point is I feel he is either us " lying to himself" as it says not to in the New Testament, or he seeks to not reign in the fruits if the spirit, self-control.
In Philip 4:8, it says to focus on that which is pure. His material isn't and doesn't qualify as
half of the things or guidelines in Philippians 4:8 . As well, in proverbs, in several places for example:prvbs 11:1," The Lord hates dishonest scales..." I personally and unfortunately admit and since repented that His work is no different than Stephen Kings work.
The violence and measure we use to " not feed on trash as fools" ( proverbs again). I know his work can not differ from secular fiction. He feels not including sex covers the " Christ" part but he feeds violence. God says to " guard your heart AND mind".
Ted Dekker is in a position of leadership type influence and will have a greater responsibility because he has a gift and chooses it to not bring Glory to Christ.
We are sorely limping with Christian fiction because I have literally read just about everyone out there and I can honestly say that most are " Zeal without knowledge is not good". ( Can u tell proverbs is my favorite book?). That verse as well came from it.
In closing, we need to examine our hearts and research Ted on the Internet. He has a tough back ground and we are to not read violence or be around there influence lest we be like them.
As far as Christian fiction, I'm am sick of books that don't include vocabulary , knowledge beyond common sense and sits on the fence.
We need talented authors to win the battle of the influence the worlds books pose on us. We can't be circumcised in our hearts and return to
books that cause us to want anything other than Christ. Can you honestly say the Christian book market follows one question that Bible says "to follow anything that makes you do good" or " Taste and see that The Lord is good"
Personally , I am sick of the Amish and sublime books that are cranked out. ( btw- the Amish do not believe as we do-they speak German and are assiduously following the Bible. What bible I'm not sure. But I have personal knowledge that they don't preach the Spirit of Christ and his ways.
No, I can not.
In Philip 4:8, it says to focus on that which is pure. His material isn't and doesn't qualify as
half of the things or guidelines in Philippians 4:8 . As well, in proverbs, in several places for example:prvbs 11:1," The Lord hates dishonest scales..." I personally and unfortunately admit and since repented that His work is no different than Stephen Kings work.
The violence and measure we use to " not feed on trash as fools" ( proverbs again). I know his work can not differ from secular fiction. He feels not including sex covers the " Christ" part but he feeds violence. God says to " guard your heart AND mind".
Ted Dekker is in a position of leadership type influence and will have a greater responsibility because he has a gift and chooses it to not bring Glory to Christ.
We are sorely limping with Christian fiction because I have literally read just about everyone out there and I can honestly say that most are " Zeal without knowledge is not good". ( Can u tell proverbs is my favorite book?). That verse as well came from it.
In closing, we need to examine our hearts and research Ted on the Internet. He has a tough back ground and we are to not read violence or be around there influence lest we be like them.
As far as Christian fiction, I'm am sick of books that don't include vocabulary , knowledge beyond common sense and sits on the fence.
We need talented authors to win the battle of the influence the worlds books pose on us. We can't be circumcised in our hearts and return to
books that cause us to want anything other than Christ. Can you honestly say the Christian book market follows one question that Bible says "to follow anything that makes you do good" or " Taste and see that The Lord is good"
Personally , I am sick of the Amish and sublime books that are cranked out. ( btw- the Amish do not believe as we do-they speak German and are assiduously following the Bible. What bible I'm not sure. But I have personal knowledge that they don't preach the Spirit of Christ and his ways.
No, I can not.
The first books of his that I have read were "The Martyr's Song" series. Then the "Blessed" series. These are really different from his other writings. I just couldn't get into the "Circle" series or any of his thrillers. I understand how he tries to teach basic theology through his allegorical stories. But they are not my cup of tea. Didn't care for "House." It was too dark for me. I am glad he writes how he does. We need people with different perspectives in order to connect with people we may not connect with otherwise. He grew up with missionary parents in the tough mission field of New Guinea dealing with animism and cannibalism. So there is where some of his story ideas come from.
I agree with you Lisa. And I have yet to meet any Amish.thanks for informing us of his mission field experiences Michelle. That does explain his fascinating knowledge in his book: "Outlaw".
I'm halfway through it.
Donovan wrote: "Gosh I'd hate to give you nightmares! Now Stephen King...I'd think he think it a compliment! :-) "LOL.
I just went to the library and got Ted Dekker's "SAINT" book on C.D..It sounds like it's about an Assassin who finds love...hopefully God's love as well as that of a woman and friends. I'll comment later. Driving my transport truck to Salt Lake City Utah next week. This story ought to take up about 10 hours of travel.
Amanda wrote: "So... I was reading Stephen King's book "On Writing," which talks about the craft of writing. He said something very profound about the importance of being truthful about your characters. I think w..."You make some very good points, Amanda.
A very interesting conversation.
As more than one of you have said, there are different types of writers for different types of readers. I often come back to an observation I made some time ago that that best people to witness to a certain group of people are people who have come out of that group by finding Grace and Salvation. That is to say, a person who comes out of the porn industry after finding Christ (or being found by Christ) would have a lot more credibility with others still in the porn industry than I would.
On the flip side, I would have a lot more credibility with readers who have always lived a careful (call it "good" if you like) life and haven't made serious mistakes, but still need the love of Christ and Salvation to be saved.
Every writer is told he or she needs to find his or her target audience. That's true.
I'd say it's just as true for every audience to find the author who speaks to them best and out of a context and life experience with which they can relate.
I can't judge the work of one servant (Christian writer). That's the Master's job; not mine. If there are people Ted Dekker (or Beverly Lewis) can reach that no one else can, then that's their assignment from God and the work they do is between God and them.
Having said that, I have yet to read Ted Dekker and probably won't because the covers tell me the type of book they are and I'm just not interested in that type of book.
But then I don't expect everybody to be interested in my type of book, either. Humans just aren't put together that way.
So while it's been an interesting discussion, I think it's a bit on the "negotiable" side. The real questions authors face are these (as stated by Amanda).
Every writer needs to figure that out for themselves.
Every writer also needs to figure out what information/details are necessary and what are gratuitious.
As more than one of you have said, there are different types of writers for different types of readers. I often come back to an observation I made some time ago that that best people to witness to a certain group of people are people who have come out of that group by finding Grace and Salvation. That is to say, a person who comes out of the porn industry after finding Christ (or being found by Christ) would have a lot more credibility with others still in the porn industry than I would.
On the flip side, I would have a lot more credibility with readers who have always lived a careful (call it "good" if you like) life and haven't made serious mistakes, but still need the love of Christ and Salvation to be saved.
Every writer is told he or she needs to find his or her target audience. That's true.
I'd say it's just as true for every audience to find the author who speaks to them best and out of a context and life experience with which they can relate.
I can't judge the work of one servant (Christian writer). That's the Master's job; not mine. If there are people Ted Dekker (or Beverly Lewis) can reach that no one else can, then that's their assignment from God and the work they do is between God and them.
Having said that, I have yet to read Ted Dekker and probably won't because the covers tell me the type of book they are and I'm just not interested in that type of book.
But then I don't expect everybody to be interested in my type of book, either. Humans just aren't put together that way.
So while it's been an interesting discussion, I think it's a bit on the "negotiable" side. The real questions authors face are these (as stated by Amanda).
1. How can an author authentically show what grace looks like, using perfect characters?
2. How can authors relate to imperfect people (yes, that's all of us. Even Christians), without imperfect characters?
3. Aren't we supposed to GO FORTH and teach the Gospel? How can we do that, if we never enter their world?
Every writer needs to figure that out for themselves.
Every writer also needs to figure out what information/details are necessary and what are gratuitious.
...Then I get the occasional well-meaning preachy Christian who sends me a list of the Beatitudes and tells me this is what I should be writing about, because this is what our high school students need to hear.
Don't be too hard on these people. I used to be one and I know my motivations in those days. I was acting out of the level of faith that I had at the time.
Since then, I've come to see that there are different ways to serve God and minister to people and that no two servants of God are given exactly the same job. Even those who appear to have the same job (such as writers) are not given the same methods for doing that job.
I strongly believe that each one of us has a unique role to play in the Kingdom of God and that He provides the tools to do that job. As I said before, if the fundamentals are correct, it's none of my business how the job is done.
...as Christ-followers [we] should be encouraging other believers to reach their audiences, instead of picking apart the way they do it.
You are correct. It is always best to tend to our own work and walk than to pick apart what others are doing.
But this is a matter of faith, too. We grow in understanding the longer we follow Christ so it behooves those who are stronger in the faith to encourage those who are weaker, as Paul also tells us.
Rod wrote: "But what does God say is good for our souls?"Philippians 4:8 (KJV)
8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
Rod,
How would you approach people who can be reached only by the type of books Ted Dekker and others are writing?
How would you approach people who can be reached only by the type of books Ted Dekker and others are writing?
God didn't write these things in His Word gratuitously, with an eye toward a market. He didn't write to try and appeal to our base nature or to make things titillating for the sake of appeal. He wrote to save our souls, show us the wretchedness of sin nature, to show us His love and to glorify Himself. So, using the scenarios in the Bible as a yardstick of "where we should go" -or are allowed to go isn't really comparable when it's measured against a "for profit" novel. His purchase is emblazoned in all of His pages...The price of His love letter, His blood.
Are novels an effective witness tool?
I suppose the way that Jesus did...love and with the power of the Holy Spirit guiding. Corrie Ten Boom brought her prison guards to Christ.
Are there any bounds beyond which a novelist shouldn't go to reach people who are also murderers, rapists, or jihadists (or any other behavior you care to mention)?
I think that it's always the forgiving and merciful love of Jesus that draws all sinners to repentance. Always point to Jesus. More darkness doesn't conquer dark. Light conquers dark. The ultimate sacrifice of love is enough.
The ultimate sacrifice of love is enough, but people have to hear that message in a context that has credibility to them.
And that gets right back to the boundaries question. Are there boundaries that should never be crossed?
And that gets right back to the boundaries question. Are there boundaries that should never be crossed?
Jesus told Nicodemus, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6). I think maybe the confusion lies in comparing apples and oranges. Sometimes when the goal is to try to make something relevant to people, it means we're appealing to their soul (mind/will/emotions/intellect) versus their spirit. Some pastors take this "seeker-sensitive" approach and try to make the Bible "relevant" to newcomers or a younger generation; the result always will be, as someone said, "a church full of tares" (i.e. Matt. 13:24)
It took me years to realize that God does not need our soulish help. Paul said, "My message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power" (1 Cor. 2:4). That is what awakens a dead spirit - the Holy Spirit. Not our best wisdom or creative efforts to bridge a gap.
That said, I do believe Christian fiction can be life-changing when we are tuned in to His Spirit. I know if HE has given me something to write, it will indeed bear spirit fruit. But even if the content is more mature, He will never tell me to write something that does not glorify Jesus.
Jesus did all that ever needed doing. The worst sinner seeking God is answered by His love and forgiveness.
...I think maybe the confusion lies in comparing apples and oranges. Sometimes when the goal is to try to make something relevant to people, it means we're appealing to their soul (mind/will/emotions/intellect) versus their spirit....
Is there a difference between the soul and the spirit? I'm not so sure.
My only point in this discussion is that there is a risk to judging the work of other people by our own standards, preferences, or understanding. I can just as easily see the same debate over whether or not there could be too much sweetness in Christian literature.
There is a place for both so long as the content is not gratuitous. It is, at its core, the same debate that raged in Paul's time over whether or not it was acceptable to eat meat offered to idols.
Is there a difference between the soul and the spirit? I'm not so sure.
My only point in this discussion is that there is a risk to judging the work of other people by our own standards, preferences, or understanding. I can just as easily see the same debate over whether or not there could be too much sweetness in Christian literature.
There is a place for both so long as the content is not gratuitous. It is, at its core, the same debate that raged in Paul's time over whether or not it was acceptable to eat meat offered to idols.
Good point about meat offered to idols Carrie Lynn. I love a good B.B.Q..I think you summed up the whole argument with that: some people should NOT be reading Ted Dekker novels. The same as some people should not visit the liquor store or go to the Ice Cream shop.
You asked me:
"How would you approach people who can be reached only by the type of books Ted Dekker and others are writing?"
I doubt Ted's books are really reaching anyone. (it would be wonderful if they are - keep writing them Ted.)
Personally I think any situation that gets people talking about Jesus and the Bible is a worthwhile venture. But often these things will just as easily push people away from Salvation. That's NOT our problem. I recall Jesus and Paul (and Stephen etc.) upsetting numerous crowds.
If anything Ted writes has the effect of the Narnia Chronicles then that is awesome. Personally I love how Stephen King's books bring up Biblical issues (hint: they never offer it as truth, but it is a worthy issue.)
So If it's on a Christians heart to write a certain kind of book: DO IT! But glorify Jesus at the same time.
I wouldn't exactly label Ted's books as ministry material. But just maybe they will open the door to a worthwhile conversation - especially if Ted himself gives some great interviews about deeper Christian essentials.
I love Ted Dekker and I am only twelve..........
Seth W wrote: "I love Ted Dekker and I am only twelve.........."That's pretty cool. Personally, I still think his older stuff (from Thr3e to Boneman's Daughters) were his best material, but haven't checked out his Outlaw Chronicles yet.
I read the outlaw chronicles......it was good besides one scene in the first one Outlaw
HOWEVER?
Is there a limit to how much violence, murder, well explained torture, and human cruelty/evil is necessary in Christian entertainment and literature?