Beta Reader Group discussion
Writing Advice & Discussion
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Beta Reader Contracts
I've beta read around a dozen titles so far and have never been asked anything of the sorts. I guess I assumed it's an unwritten rule.I don't know plagiarism law so I can't speak on that aspect.
I could possibly see this in a publishing environment, maybe a "test market" scenario.
In the end it's whatever makes you comfortable and I'm sure there are betas that would oblige. I would probably shy away ad a beta, but I don't sign anything that could potentially affect me negatively without a lawyer.
Maybe I'm naive, but I just assumed beta readers would delete all copies of a manuscript once they have completed their review as I have. If someone is desperate and dumb enough to steal a manuscript--well, there is a place for immoral, unethical people even after they have been sued for plagerism. :)
I have never had anyone sign a contract. Just make sure they know what is expected of them, because I have had beta's leave their comments in a review on Goodreads, but that's when I got them from another group. Seems everyone in this group understands what a beta reader does.Beta readers are not for reviewing, just make sure it is clear before you send it to them.
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If a beta chose to use their comments on an unfinished book as a review, I would be surprised, but I'd say it's their right. However, I think it would be poor form for someone to do so without asking for a review copy once it's finished. Just like it would be poor form for an author to ask a beta, in addition to what they've already done, to write a review.
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If an author has concerns on these points, however, they should by all means seek confirmation from the beta before proceeding.
I don't tend to delete beta files, as often an author will ask further questions, and storage is not an issue.
I've beta read multiple items and have never once been asked to sign any contract. I also don't review anything based on my beta read. Any review I do will be based on the official published version.I don't add anyone else's book to the site unless it's an already published book that for some reason isn't on the site.
I am sure the vast majority of beta readers do it for love over anything else. However, authors are automatically protected by copyright law anyway. The fact you have a digital trail is a convenient backup. The same law also forbids readers from posting authors' work anywhere. So even if an author is nervous in that respect, it's unlikely to result in problems.
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I did make the mistake of adding a book (just the title of the book and the author/illustrator name - no synopsis or anything). I thought the entry would be private to me. I was horrified when I went to the author's Goodreads page and saw it posted there. I immediately emailed him and told him what happened. He was very nice and told me not to worry about it. I had already contacted a Goodread's librarian about deleting the post, but ended up leaving it since it was OK with the author (such a nice man!). I only added it to keep track of what I am beta reading, reviewing, and reading for the year. I'll never make that mistake again, though!
I have used beta readers for my work and also beta read for people. I have never asked, or been asked to sign anything. Personally I would walk away if someone asked me to sign something (I don't want to feel like I need a lawyer when I'm taking time out of my own busy life to help someone).
You do take a chance giving someone your work, but there are things you can do.
Check the person you are giving your work to, have they beta read before.
You can ask for references.
Keep all email contact in a file; this is your proof that you sent them your work.
If you are not comfortable, or do not trust someone reading your work then you should pay people to do it professionally, that’s my opinion anyway.
Hope this helps.
You do take a chance giving someone your work, but there are things you can do.
Check the person you are giving your work to, have they beta read before.
You can ask for references.
Keep all email contact in a file; this is your proof that you sent them your work.
If you are not comfortable, or do not trust someone reading your work then you should pay people to do it professionally, that’s my opinion anyway.
Hope this helps.
Just a note based on Debra's comment, "if they can't be trusted , the contract is useless anyway." Amen. I have dealt with people in many situations over the last twenty years and spent thousands on lawyers in the early days. I have done business for the past ten years with people I don't need to sign contracts with (very few people) or I use a boilerplate from the Internet based on an honest attorneys advice. If I can't trust someone than I won't work with them no matter how ironclad the contract.
Oh and to address the original post, don't send the entire manuscript if you are uncomfortable. Send a sample to see how you feel as you communicate with the reader. Go look at their profiles on Goodreads. If they have been long time members with lots of posts that are general sane and positive you are probably safe.
Well this is quite a response, thank you to everyone who has taken the time to post. It does seem that everyone on both sides is pretty much in agreement regarding contracts in such a situation.
How do you go about the process of getting the $35 copyright? Is that something you can do online?
Debra wrote: "Just spend $35 for an online copyright at copyright.gov, then your work is coverd in a way that can be proven in court.No, I don't ask them to sign contracts etc, if they cant be trusted , the c..."
Registering @ ISBN free? I have done it already...
Interesting discussion. According to me, it is primarily a matter of trust. You may take every conceivable precaution, but not that solitary step to check out on the 'reader' and his true intentions. If the reader who approaches you, is registered with a website like GoodReads, spend some time scrutinising his profile. I am sure that will be worth much more than harbouring other apprehensions!
Having said that, let me add: The question that bothers a reader like me is a writer's willingness to accept objective criticisms. There have been occasions, when I felt that the hours I spent in reading a book, and the efforts I took in conveying my findings have all been sheer waste!
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I had one author who never responded to the email I returned with my comments. She never even acknowledged receiving my email, and I know she did bc I replied to the email she originally sent me. I spent hours reading her book and a couple of hours putting my comments together to be as nice as possible. I pointed out positive things as well as things that I found inconsistent or that were negative in some way.
I don't care so much about not getting a reply from her; my issue is in knowing if what I said and how I said it came off as rude. Did I miss the mark with what I thought was wrapping it nicely? I can't imagine how hard it is for an author to put so much time and heart into something only to receive negative feedback. I really tried to take that into consideration. I've been bothered ever since doing that read since it was only my 4th one to do.
For those of you who are authors, do you not want betas to be honest? You have no idea how many times I've wished I had an author friend who could read what I sent to this author and tell me if I was too harsh. Maybe I shouldn't care, but I do. I want to help, not hurt.
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Precisely because of the sort of feedback a beta is expected to give, I feel it's not usually appropriate to also write a review, as they serve two different purposes: one is a private report to help the writer improve the work, the other a public report for readers to choose what to read.
If a writer asks for a beta read then they need to be prepared to receive negative feedback as well as positive feedback - after all, the usual purpose is to prepare for publication, and once it's published reviewers will point out issues publicly!
Surely part of the unwritten contract between author and beta reader is to be honest and specific with feedback?
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However, as someone above said, it is up to the author to make the changes you suggest or not. If he/she is v. attached to one thing remaining as it is, he may not change it. I usually make the bigger changes, esp. if more than one beta point it out. But sometimes I leave certain things, because I meant for them to be that way. So it's up to the author to decide what advice to take and what not to. If you gave honest feedback, you did your job. You can't force the author to make those changes (unless, perhaps, you are co-writing the novel).
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I like your policy of taking a few days to digest it. I also agree that nothing important to the author should be changed unless it appears to be a trend spotted by a number of readers. I've never found out if any of my feedback was ever used to make changes. Personally, that doesn't bother me. I beta read because I enjoy it and want to help. An author can take it or leave it since it is their story and only my opinion.
Thanks for replying honestly about negative feedback. I know it is a touchy subject. I don't take giving that type of feedback lightly. It is almost as hard to write as I imagine it would be to read.
Both getting and giving feedback is an art.
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I'm a beta and I always respond to the Author. I find it rude not to. I don't like to leave people hanging or waiting.
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I will say that, for me, some books take longer to read than others. I typically finish a book in two to three days, but sometimes a book just takes me longer to get through. Reading your post makes me realize that it might be a good idea to shoot my author an email once a week in those cases so they know I'm still reading. It has only happened in one case, but it is something I will keep in mind going forward.
Lots of good and bad things were said about Beta Readers. Some even wished to bind them in confidentiality clauses and copyright contracts. But honestly, how many authors are willing to pay them?
I can't even get my own family and friends to read my books! I am talking twenty plus people, people I have begged. My wife would read but like the poster Julie (which is her name too) is a wimp. If I can get a beta to read even a few pages of my book I am thrilled! Maybe one approach would be to give readers a chapter. It won't be so overwhelming a task to read and if they like it they will ask for more, if they don't you can at least get feedback on the all important first few pages.
I regularly beta read and more for over thirty authors and have only once been asked to sign anything. When asked I explained why I believe that the contract would in the end not be legally binding unless drawn up by lawyers who know the laws in the individual states where both the author and beta reader lives and also the signatures would need to be notarized and witnessed. Because first and foremost lets face it folks anyone on these boards could be lying about who they are, and sadly some people just aren't honest. I feel these things without lawyer involvement are just giving the author the illusion of safety. My advice is ask for a reference from another author and check out the beta's profile and things they've said on GRs boards to help you find someone who has integrity.Personally, how I myself work is that I don't even name the authors with whom I work unless they name me publicly first or have givien me permission to use them as a reference. Furthermore, regarding manuscript files that I've worked on. I keep them on my computer for a short time after I've sent it with my comments to the author for the sole purpose of being able to refer back to it to refresh my memory if the author asks me further clarifying questions. Once I know we're completely finished working on it I delete it. As for the question of reviewing or rating... I absolutely don't review or rate them until or if I've read the finished, published book. It would be totally unfair to review or rate a draft of an unpublished book.
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Luke: Some betas will read a chapter or two, some prefer the whole thing at once - and you can get a much better idea of how the plot works that way. I'm sure there are betas on here who would read your work. I charge a fee for my beta reading and I'm still fairly busy with it, which means I'm having to be careful what I take on time-wise.
If anyone's looking for feedback on writing skill/style rather than on a specific story, don't forget sites like scribophile, where you can post your own writing for critique, read and critique other people's work - and also read writing/critiques by others.
Pretty cool discussion: especially since two of my betas are a part of it! LOLI love honest feedback - just want to echo that. I like it in a nice way - but LOVE HONEST FEEDBACK. But I also echo the statement that I generally don't change something unless more than one Beta comments on it OR if it was always something I was worried about.
My Betas have made my book 10 times better than what it was when I started writing it. So I can't imagine, not listening to them. In fact those who weren't overjoyed about it generally gave me the best feedback on what to fix. I think when a person doesn't like something - every little nail sticking up pokes them. LOL But I try to immediately send an email saying "Thank you" especially if the feedback is bad because I may not want to do it later. :-)
On time - I generally give betas 3 weeks to read, and honestly I use their turn around time to let me know how they enjoyed it. Someone who tells me, "I'll read it this weekend" but I don't hear from them for three weeks - it may have taken them a while to get into the book. But when I send it off and a day later I'm getting a response, means they flew through the book and couldn't put it down.
But Both Betas and Authors need to understand that it's a relationship. And like any relationship not every Author is for every Beta. I'm still building betas because I want them for the whole series. LOL And just like any book - even the best books on goodreads - there is a drop between readers of the first and second book.
I've beta read many different things, I've never been asked to sign anything and confidentiality is implied but should be both common sense and good manners. Of the titles I've volunteered to beta read I have only ever not been able to finish 2 of the titles I was sent, so a 98% completion rate.
I send my feedback, quite frequently I ask a lot of questions, these are things I think the author should ask themselves but mostly I'm curious too. I think only 1 of my authors ever answered those.
When I say "I'll read it", I tell them exactly when I expect to start and finish it. I also email them to tell them EXACTLY when I started so they know I'm on the case.
I explain my feedback and always say they can ask why I've said a particular thing.
I've stopped beta reading to concentrate more on my own writing now but I will come back to it, eventually.
If I've read for you, I hope it was a good experience and your book benefitted from it.
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Some betas charge a fee, some don't. They all seem to get plenty of work either way.
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Self publishing doesn't mean cheap publishing. It means the author takes on the risks and costs themselves but has much more control than trad publishing.
I have had only one beta reader get a copy of my book and never respond, even after repeated attempts to contact her. There are always bad ones out there, but the majority beta read for the love of helping to put out a great book. I also make sure my beta readers get credit for their work in the acknowledgments in my books.
I've beta read ones and never mentioned the book, nor did I write anything. There was a brief email chat before this arrangement where we established what the author was looking for and what I was able to provide. Since I am given a free book to read I think it is only honorable to follow the authors wishes. But a signed contract (or a digital version of it), might be a good idea.
I just think that people that have no experience about beta reading might do the types of mistakes you are describing, esp. if the author didn't make any restrictions.
P.J. It is always possible that the person realized that they are not only suppose to read but to do some work. She might have been ashamed, or something in her life might have happened.
It seems to me that this group needs a mod and the one now hasn't been active in more then 4 months.
Debra wrote: "And I'm still looking for a couple beta more beta readers who RESPOND! "That is why clear rules for this group should be made. In such cases the mod should be warned, so he can give warning to the people. If they still don't respond they can be banned from the group, so other authors will not suffer.
I think some people assume beta reading is equal to r4r.
We did have an email exchange before hand and I explained what I was looking for. She said it was exactly what she was comfortable doing.Do you think it's okay to ask beta readers the names of some authors they have read for and get feedback from the author on the beta's responsiveness?
P.J. wrote: "Do you think it's okay to ask beta readers the names of some authors they have read for and get feedback from the author on the beta's responsiveness? "Yes, why not. Seems like a good idea. I wouldn't mind.
As I'm reading all of these comments I can still think of only two reasons that a beta reader might totally disappear and never be heard from again. The first one would be of course if that person died and none of their family members knew to let the author know. Or if something else catastrophic happened in their real life and they were just totally overwhelmed.I have in the past couple of years been overwhelmed with some real life family issues,foreclosure, deaths and helping elderly parents, that have interrupted my beta reading to the point that I completely forgot that I even had them. However, once my mind calmed down enough that I remembered I did make contact and explain what had occurred and apologized profusely.
Pati wrote: "As I'm reading all of these comments I can still think of only two reasons that a beta reader might totally disappear and never be heard from again. The first one would be of course if that person ..."Well there are other reasons then death, but it can take months. Of course that it is preferable to get back to the author, but not everyone cares enough.
About informing the author, no one knows my passwords, or all the sites and activity I have online. Nor do I live with a family, if something were to happen to me, no one online will ever know.
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Agreed. I emailed him a while back asking if he'd like some help or to add me as a mod, but never heard back. It would be helpful if we had folders for those offering services, those seeking, and discussion such as this.
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Lena wrote: "Ellie [The Empress] wrote: " It seems to me that this group needs a mod and the one now hasn't been active in more then 4 months. ..."Agreed. I emailed him a while back asking if he'd like some ..."
That is what I was thinking. If you want to take over the group just flag it and explain the mod is not active and that you would like to be the mod. They will investigate and probably put you as the owner.
Lin, it is a well behaved bunch but for example, folders are needed, for authors and beta reviewers. As well people need to put the genre in the title in my opinion. Seeing 30 topics with a title "beta reader needed" is not very helpful. And a mod can kick out beta readers that don't follow any rules, such as the ones that some of author complained in this topic.
I am so glad everyone seems to be in agreement on here regarding this issue, and is pretty much the way I had originally imagined things to be, before fearing I had been blindly naïve. I know now I can go ahead without worry of doing things the wrong way.Re: Mods
Some different areas of the group would be useful, it is by far the biggest Beta reader group so a handful of mods may be needed. I would consider helping out here and there if you were looking for some extra hands.
R.L. wrote: "Re: ModsSome different areas of the group would be useful, it is by far the biggest Beta reader group so a handful of mods may be needed. I would consider helping out here and there if you were looking for some extra hands. "
I am not a mod. Someone needs to take over by the method I have described.
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Lena wrote: "I think r.l. Is the mod?"No, I'm not a mod :S
Just wanted to run something by you all to see what the general consensus is.
I read today that writers should always ensure that Beta readers sign a contract regarding mainly confidentiality, before they send them work to read.
I also saw somewhere else that some Beta readers add works to goodreads with their comments as a review. This was something else covered in the contract mentioned.
As I am new to using Beta's that I don't know. I would like to know how things are generally done in the view of both seasoned authors and Beta readers.
Do Beta readers generally sign a standard contract regarding conditions around Beta reading?
Also is it common practice for Beta readers to add books they have read in draft form (along with a review), to this site?
I am really not trying (and hope not) to incite any sort of argument about this between readers and writers. Am just generally interested in getting the system straight in my mind before venturing out.
Many thanks