My Brilliant Friend by Elena Ferrante -- Discussion (Spoilers)

[Sherry, Doyenne]

Not since I first read Alice Munro or Margaret Atwood have I read an author who explores a woman’s (or girl’s) life with such honesty and insight as Elena Ferrante in My Brilliant Friend. I hope that Ferrante doesn’t get classified as a “woman’s writer” because that would be a shame. Her laser-sharp intelligence and unsparing insight also inform her male characters. Men can learn a lot about women and themselves in this book. Not just a coming-of-age novel, My Brilliant Friend takes us to the ominous shadow of Vesuvius, and makes us smell, hear and feel the heat and swelter of Naples.

I have a question. What do you think drew Elena to be obsessed with Lila as a young girl?

Here is a link to an article in The New Yorker that I think will help with our discussion:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/201...

[Ann D]

I felt like Lila was almost the missing part of Elena - adventurous, rule breaking, amazingly strong.

For Lila, Elena might not have been so essential, but her success was a standard that Lila could measure herself against.

Aside from their intellects, they seemed opposite in many ways.

[Sherry, Doyenne]

They did seem drawn to each other like magnets, didn't they? What surprised me, though, was that in the end, Elena was the one who was dubbed "my brilliant friend" by Lila. For most of the book, I was thinking Lila was the shiny bright one.

[Ann D]

That also surprised me, Sherry. I think Lila had been forced to give up so many of her own dreams by that point that she no longer considered herself "brilliant."

[Ann D]

Thanks for the New Yorker article, Sherry. After reading about Ferrante's earlier books, I well understand why she wants to write under a pseudonym. If even a portion of those characters' feelings about men and motherhood reflect her own ideas, the books could cause a lot of damage in her personal relationships.

I am anxious to read the second book. I hope Ferrante allows her characters some interludes of happiness.

We went to Naples for a day a couple of years ago to see the National Archaeology Museum, but the whole place made me uneasy - probably because of its reputation. The taxi driver who tried to cheat us right off the bat didn't help.

[Ruth]

Ha. In Naples we just grabbed a hotel. Not long before we discovered we were in the red light district.

I love the premise of this book, the struggle of the young to leave or stay, the idea that it's the feisty one that gets trapped. I loved the idea that it was Italian, even if not set in Sicily where my roots lie.

But its execution wore me down. If this hadn't been a CR book I would have given up fairly early. I was unable to connect with any of the characters, and felt at a remove from everything that was happening. The book seemed to go on forever.

I wonder if this could be the translation. Books translated from another language often have that effect on me. But then not all do. I wish I could put my finger on what causes it.

[Sherry, Doyenne]

Ruth wrote: "Ha. In Naples we just grabbed a hotel. Not long before we discovered we were in the red light district.

I love the premise of this book, the struggle of the young to leave or stay, the idea that i..."

I had the exact opposite reaction, Ruth. I was highly connected to the characters, and finished it way ahead of time, which is rare for me. The city of Naples seemed teeming with explosive, dangerous possibilities. Does having a volcano right next door have that effect? I felt I could inhabit the place without suffering any of the dangerous consequences. One of the best things about being a reader, I think.

I wish I could have seen some of Lila's shoe designs.

[Ruth]

Part of it is the Italian psyche, I think. Although I don't think it's as bad now as it once was. A male-oriented society, the idea of "disgrace to the family," of insults that must be paid back.

[Kat]

I connected to the characters so much I feel almost exposed! Though I grew up in a loving home and not in a culture of violence, my class background left me feeling exactly as Elena did in trying to enter an intellectual world others had grown up with: as though I could NEVER catch up. The way she tries to imitate others, the way she doesn't trust her own opinions--that's what my twenties were like.

I think the differences between Elena and Lila are fascinating. I think a key scene is the one in which they try to go to the sea, and it's Lila who wants to turn back. I think the reason Elena gets out and Lila doesn't has to do with the fact that Lila just can't ENVISION getting out. She knows how to be powerful within the context of her own community, but the world beyond that is too scary for her.

[Ann D]

Kat said of Lila: "She knows how to be powerful within the context of her own community, but the world beyond that is too scary for her".

Excellent observation. Elena conditions us to always think of Lina as the stronger of the two, but that is not always the case.

Another difference:
Lina had the strongest obstacles, but she was also bound to the neighborhood by her love (turbulent as it was) for her parents and her brother.

Elena tells us that she "hates" her mother and that is a very strong motivation for her to escape. I wonder if we will ever find out why her mother limps and has a wandering eye. An accident? An attack? I'm guessing it must have happened after her marriage.

[Kenneth P.]

I like Ruth's comment, "the idea that it's the feisty one that gets trapped."

Sherry poses the question of who is "my brilliant friend?"

I see the bath as symbolically crucial. Naked, Lila gets into the steaming copper tub. I see it as a baptismal re-birth. Say goodbye to the feared rock-throwing, knife-wielding, bloodletting rebellious bitch. Say hello to a possession... feminist interruptus.

That's where the worm turns, where the torch is passed to the new brilliant friend. And it is Greco who does the washing from head to toe.

[Kenneth P.]

Like Ruth, I struggled with the first half of the book. Could we have more exams of Latin, Italian, Greek? More 8's 9's and 10's for grades? Who's the best, who's the smartest? Get to the point, I screamed at my kindle. Stop talking and get to the point-- who are you anyway, Rachel Maddow?

When Greco set foot on the ferry to Ischia I turned cartwheels throughout my house (imaginary ones of course). For me, that's when the book finally took off.

[Mary Ellen]

I started this on a train ride, got about 1/3 of the way through, and never went back. I will try to finish it, both for this discussion and because I actually PAID for this book (Kindle edition). I'm with Kenneth & Ruth. Endless and alien and I was turned off by just about EVERYBODY. No wonder the author publishes under a pseudonym: everyone in her home city is creepy or crazy or just generally unappealing. (Reminded me of the not-too-warm welcome Frank McCourt would get in his native Limerick: see Angela's Ashes)

[Ann D]

I got somewhat turned off by the endless analysis of feelings, but I liked both the girls and wanted to find out what happened to them.

Kenneth - interesting thoughts about the symbolism of the bath and the torch being passed to Elena. I think you have something there, but I suspect that the rebellious, rock throwing girl will erupt again in book 2.

The wedding presented many bad omens for the future of Lina's marriage - especially the gift of the shoes to Marcello by Stefano. I'm not sure what all is going on with the alliance between the Solaras and the Carracchis, but it appears that they are partners in organized crime and the loan shark business.

[Kenneth P.]

Mary Ellen, you may want to give it another shot. On Kindle, unfortunately, it was the 60% mark where things took off. Again, that's just me.

Ann, there were hints that the wealthier, more influential families (Solaras and Carrachis) were Fascists during the war years. I was disappointed that we didn't learn more because, for me anyway, that's just super-juicy. But of course the book is what it is, not what I want it to be.

[Theresa]

As you know, I loved this book and the second in the series. I have number three on the shelf waiting to be read, and I hear number four is out in September.

I think one of the reasons there are so many unanswered questions is that Ferrante tells the tale through the eyes of her protagonist, she is not pandering to the reader but telling Elena's story as experienced by Elena, through the not fully comprehending eyes of a child. This is one of the things that pulled me into this book right from the start. And Ferrante doesn't explain things that might be alien to us, but would be accepted as the norm by her characters. It's their story, not the reader's. Hence the endless tests and grades - that's what Lina was experiencing, what her life was composed of. Maybe I can relate because I was also a girl who tested well, and tested myself right into q different social milieu, an almost alien world.

Ruth, did you find the translation awkward or lacking? I thought it was wonderful, I did not have the type of "break" I often have when reading translated fiction, where I suddenly and joltingly become aware that I am not reading the author's original words.

Theresa

[Kat]

I've thought a lot about whether Ferrante is unfair to the community she's writing about. I do think that most of the characters are shown as one-dimensional rather than complex, and that's usually a deal-breaker for me. I suspect it's a highly autobiographical work, and some people who "get out" of an environment that was highly destructive to themselves can never portray that environment sympathetically. Whether or not this is the case, I guess I'm willing to let there be some one-dimensional characters out there in order to bring to life these two highly complex and compelling characters of Elena and Lila. For me it's a unique rendering--nothing I've read compares with it in terms of delineating the psychological and intellectual development of intelligent young women trapped in a time period and a neighborhood in which there is no place for them.

[Mary Anne]

Mary Ellen wrote: "I started this on a train ride, got about 1/3 of the way through, and never went back. I will try to finish it, both for this discussion and because I actually PAID for this book (Kindle edition)...."

How ironic that you mention Tis, Mary Ellen, as I was thinking of that memoir as well.

I was drawn into this book mainly because of the universalities of a hard-scrabble childhood, or any childhood, for that matter. I, myself, was a goody two shoes, but I loved playing with my friend who seemed to know everything about life, boys, and what she wanted.

My husband, who is the one in our family of Neapolitan grandparents, couldn't get into this book because he prefers nonfiction.

My only quibble was the ending - or lack thereof. I understand that there are more books in the series, but it seemed more of a chapter ending rather than a book ending. Or perhaps it is more like TV season ending wedding episode. It may be some months before I read another in this series. Who knows whether I will remember what I have read?

[Ruth]

Theresa wrote: "Ruth, did you find the translation awkward or lacking? I thought it was wonderful, I did not have the type of "break" I often have when reading translated fiction, where I suddenly and joltingly become aware that I am not reading the author's original words. "

The translation seemed perfectly fine. As has the translation on other translated books to which I've had the same reaction. It just seems as if everything is at a distance.

[Ann D]

Theresa,
Just out of curiosity, in book 2 does the reader learn more about the background of the parents and the other families? How old are the girls at that point? I am definitely planning on reading book 2 in any case.

I agree that there is enough of the universal in these girls to appeal to an awful lot of readers who did not grow up in such rough circumstances.

Like Mary Anne, I was also a goody two shoes (Catholic education and the fear of sin and confession tended to produce those types - at least temporarily). I studied a lot and got great grades in high school, but my parents, like Elana's, never paid much attention. They thought I read too much.

Like these girls, every teenage girl obsesses about her body and her looks, and most have experienced some kind of alienation from their parents. I too remember worrying that I would turn out like my mother, who had lots of problems. I would never want to relive those preteen and teenage years again.

[Ann D]

Kenneth,
Yes, the Solaras and Carrachis did support the Fascists. Mussolini first took over the government in 1922 and so many Italians probably supported them, but didn't necessarily get their hands dirty like these two families apparently did.

During the World War II, after the Allied invasion there was vicious fighting between the Italian Resistance and the remaining Fascists who supported the Nazis.

In a way, I can understand the parents' attempt to bury the past and deal with their present reality.

I liked the way Ferrante explained the division between "before" (i.e they were born) and "after" in the girls' minds.

And yet Don Achille’s money had been made before. And the Solaras’ money as well. She had tested this out on her father and mother. They didn’t know anything, they wouldn’t talk about anything. Not Fascism, not the king. No injustice, no oppression, no exploitation. They hated Don Achille and were afraid of the Solaras. But they overlooked it and went to spend their money both at Don Achille’s son’s and at the Solaras’, and sent us, too. And they voted for the Fascists, for the monarchists, as the Solaras wanted them to. And they thought that what had happened before was past and, in order to live quietly, they placed a stone on top of it, and so, without knowing it, they continued it, they were immersed in the things of before, and we kept them inside us, too.

[Kenneth P.]

Great quote Ann. And thanks for the history.

Lila was reticent about her sex life, or lack thereof. I wonder about Marcello Solara and his intense sense of ownership regarding Lila. He threatened her with murder should she not marry him. Do you think they had sex? Would that explain his insane possessiveness? Or was it just your basic Italian machismo?

At the wedding reception, wearing her shoes for the entire neighborhood to see, is Marcello boasting of a certain conquest?

[Ann D]

Well, I was surprised that Stefano barely touched Lila. Was he afraid he would scare her away or was he not interested in girls/and or sex? I think I have to read Book 2 to find out, which I'm sure the author intended.

I definitely do not think Lila had sex with Marcello. She would have knifed him first. I don't understand that extreme machismo, but it exists as well among uneducated people in other parts of the world where women are viewed as possessions.

Stefano must have made some kind of deal with the Solaros, who are the ones who apparently control the neighborhood. Elena's parents "hated" Don Achille (father of Stefano), but they were "afraid" of the Solaras. In my view, being afraid is worse than hating. Stefano got the girl and the Solaras paid for part of his wedding, but Stefanoe gave up something else. Does he owe them fealty now?

The shoes were also a signal to Lila that she hadn't really escaped the clutches of the Solaras. She thought she could control her destiny, but she was a pawn in the hands of the male players.

[[deleted user]]

Kat wrote: "I've thought a lot about whether Ferrante is unfair to the community she's writing about. I do think that most of the characters are shown as one-dimensional rather than complex, and that's usually..."

I have a comment first, and then a question. For years I've been looking for a woman who wrote with an authentic voice. Not trying to please anyone, but describing life as she saw it. When I found Ferrante in The Days of Abandonment, I knew I'd found her. And I was reminded: Be careful what you wish for. I, too, understand her anonymity, and I love the mention of the "second wave of feminism" in The New Yorker, Sherry. I've been rereading many of the "first wave," and that comment helped me put Ferrante in perspective.

The question that I mentioned is in response to Kat's comments about one-dimensional characters. "I Didn't Come Here to Argue," to quote Jean Kerr, But I found Lila far from one dimensional, given her intelligence, bravery, and creativity set against her ability to bend her own will to the wishes of her father and brother (imagine the kinetic energy stored in that suppressed anger!). I think that's multi-dimensional and filled with tension. And the men, while less intimately drawn, for the most part, than the women, also have the tension of their personal machismo set against the power of the reigning tribal leader. You're going to have to forgive me for not remembering all the names; the book went back to the library long ago. I think the men are one-dimensional in the way that men can act one-dimensionally toward women, and the way young women, in particular see not just the world in one dimension, but have no idea that their true love and their worst nightmare may wear the same skin.

Honestly, I think the ritual bath and the external stillness of Lila are, respectively, akin to the suicide of Virginia Woolf and the silent rage of Emily Dickenson. (If I'm the only one who feels the latter, then ignore me.)

I think Ferrante is breathtaking. I have not yet read the second book, not ready yet, but in my heart, I doubt we have seen or heard the last of Lila. While Elena exited the wedding with resolve and anger, I felt she left a piece of her heart there with the friend to whom she owed so much. I can't help but feel.... Well. It is a trilogy. I will wait and see.

Wait, I'm editing to add a thought. I am surely putting in something that is only in my own mind, but do you remember the discussion in the beginning of the book about "Lila" and "Lena," the similarity of their familial nicknames? I can't help but wonder if they're not two halves of the same woman. Oh, of course, Sherry and Kenneth already addressed that above, the passing of the torch, one brilliant friend to the next... I do read the posts, I just get over-excited.

[Kat]

I never meant to say that Lila and Elena were one-dimensional, far from it! But I do think the men and, perhaps even more worrying for me, the parental generation, are pretty one-dimensional. I like what you say about the men, though. If their own relations with the women characters were more nuanced, they wouldn't come across as so one-dimensional. And some of them, in later volumes, do get rounded out somewhat.

I absolutely agree with you, Ellen, about the authenticity of Ferrante's voice. There's something in her that I've never heard or seen before, so for me, too, she's breathtaking. I've read the three volumes of this series that have been translated into English and am looking forward to the fourth next month.

Having read ahead, I can say that the comments above about Stefano and the Solaris brothers are on the right track.

[Theresa]

Ann, book two covers the early years of Lila's marriage and Elena's high school and then university education. Some of the questions raised in this thread are answered, at least partially, in book two.

Ellen, your comment regarding Ferrante as a woman writer with an authentic voice brought Doris Lessing to my mind. I had not made the connection before this, but while their writing and storytelling styles are quite different, I do think they are similarly authentic, and can be similarly disquieting. Though I never felt the connection to Lessing's books that I do to Ferrante's.

Theresa

[[deleted user]]

Theresa wrote: "Ann, book two covers the early years of Lila's marriage and Elena's high school and then university education. Some of the questions raised in this thread are answered, at least partially, in book..."

Yes, Lessing. As I've mentioned here, I'm sure, I just reread The Golden Notebook, which was when? 1970? That era? And I found it a little difficult, but am glad I read it. Yes, she has authenticity. I went back to TGN because I read her Love, Again, which really spoke to me, one now older woman to another. Yes, and there are others, of course there are others, but Ferrante is the first woman (that I recall) reading from whom I didn't get a sense of some scintilla of regret, or apology, or rationalizing, or, and this is so important, a complete rejection of all things man-related. I love how Elena is torn by her feelings for her gentle and intellectual male friend at school, and yet isn't old enough yet to firmly decide to throw aside the concept that a woman gains her stature from the power of the male she aligns herself with. But to her great credit, she feels it, I think, as a wrong-headed inclination, and is greatly torn.

Kat, Kat, I didn't mean to misread your comments about the dimensionality of the characters, so sorry. I do this so early and barely awake! You're r4ight!

[Mary Anne]

You make an excellent point, Ellen, about Ferrante not rejecting all things man-related. If this book were set in America, that surely would have been part of the story.

I loved that Marcello put the shoes on at the wedding, a kind of anti-Cinderella message.

I wanted to go back to the very beginning of the book, when Lila is missing, and her son calls Lena. The entire book is a retrospective on the relationship between the two girls. In the telling, we see the start of some kind of gap or "disappearance" for Lila. Are they seizures? Blackouts? Will we see the son as a character again?

[Ann D]

"I loved that Marcello put the shoes on at the wedding, a kind of anti-Cinderella message."

I love that thought!

[[deleted user]]

Ann wrote: ""I loved that Marcello put the shoes on at the wedding, a kind of anti-Cinderella message."

I love that thought!"

Mary Anne wrote: "You make an excellent point, Ellen, about Ferrante not rejecting all things man-related. If this book were set in America, that surely would have been part of the story.

I loved that Marcello put ..."

Oh, how I wish I'd bought this book, but I simply can't afford to buy books I can can get in the library. I so appreciate this conversation, even if I don't have the book at hand to refer to the parts you ask about.

This is juat a simple appreciation of my own "Brillian Friends."

[Suzy]

Oh, my! Only five days since this conversation began and what a great conversation it is. I always like seeing the diversity of thoughts and feelings about books I have read. I am squarely in the group that finds the writing thrilling and breathtaking. I am in the middle of book 3,Those Who Leave and Those Who Stay and can't wait for book 4 to come out in September!

Theresa wrote: And Ferrante doesn't explain things that might be alien to us, but would be accepted as the norm by her characters. It's their story, not the reader's.
For me this is the best part of Ferrante's writing. She is telling the story of Elena and Lila from her point of view and without explanation, creating immediacy. This includes their environment and their experiences, together and separately. I think The Brilliant Friend is Lila from Elena's point of view. Elena is the smart friend, but Lila is brilliant in how she writes, designs, manages, interacts with the people in the neighborhood. She is scrappy and street-wise; Elena is intellectual and working very hard to rise to the top and find her voice. (I relate to Lila having not been a good student, instead finding and expressing my talents through experience.) I also find that the themes of family, friendship, coming of age, etc. in this book are universal, even if we didn't grow up in Naples. I've wondered if it helps that I am the same age as these women and have experienced some of the societal changes we see throughout this series. I love that society and culture are very much present in these books, even though the story is very personal.

For those wanting more backstory on the neighborhood and families, very little is included beyond Ann's quote in comment 21 and occasional mentions of things that have been handed down through the generations, mainly businesses, family political affiliation and status in society. Again, Ferrante is telling the story going forward from when they were seven. This book ends when they are 16, book two when they are 25 and since I haven't finished book 3 . . . not sure.

As I said in my review of book 2, a testimony to the quality of Ferrante's writing is that the world falls away and I am placed in the middle of Naples, Ischia, Pisa or wherever the action is taking place, feeling as if I am right there with them. I think the writing is beautiful, but I am never aware of the words on the page. Transporting in the truest sense of the word.

I look forward to seeing more people's insights, like those of the shoes and the bath. I subscribe the Slate Audio Book Club. Here's their installment on My Brilliant Friend. http://www.slate.com/articles/podcast... More insights abound in this discussion.

[Suzy]

One more comment/question - thank goodness for the list of families at the beginning of the book!! Did you also find that you relied heavily on that? So many similar names - Rino, Pino, Nino, Gino, for example :) This was one of the things that allowed me to track with the story.

[Sue]

I am still reading the book (only ca 35% through) but I'm finding myself becoming more and more involved as I read on. This is a great discussion and I hope to be able to participate further as I read more.

[Ann D]

Great comments, Suzy! I am glad to hear that the next books are equally compelling.


I read the book on my Kindle and I had to highlight and then print out the list of families and characters at the beginning. Otherwise I just couldn't have kept them straight, and that way I didn't have to keep doing Kindle searches.

[Suzy]

Ann wrote: "Great comments, Suzy! I am glad to hear that the next books are equally compelling.


I read the book on my Kindle and I had to highlight and then print out the list of families and characters at t..."

I hadn't thought about the issues of backtracking on a Kindle - good idea to print out. I usually listen to audiobooks for books of this length. But I thought it would be too frustrating keeping track, plus the narrator had a Brit accent which just didn't jive for me.

[Sue]

I've just read the section which talks of the past, the Nazis, the Fascists, the smugglers, who is who. Very powerful section.

[[deleted user]]

Sue wrote: "I've just read the section which talks of the past, the Nazis, the Fascists, the smugglers, who is who. Very powerful section."

Isn't it? I feel that we know so little of what the Italians lived through.

[Sue]

I had the same reaction while reading The Balkan Trilogy. I had even less knowledge about Eastern Europe but Ferrante is letting me see how little I really know about Italy except that it suffered badly in the wars of the 20th century. Elena and Lila are girls only about 5 years older than me but what a difference in life experience.

[[deleted user]]

Sue wrote: "I had the same reaction while reading The Balkan Trilogy. I had even less knowledge about Eastern Europe but Ferrante is letting me see how little I really know about Italy except that it suffered ..."

I don't know, Sue, where you're from, I'm American. But we are almost alone in the world (Australia, maybe) in terms of societies who haven't suffered within their own borders the cataclysm of war (in anything approaching recent memory). Natural disasters, yes, watching people leave the country and often not return to fight wars, yes. But things like governmental terror and wars at home, no. When I see comments made on the general boards, particularly by younger people, I realize what a skewed vision of existence this gives us when we encounter literature from other countries. And sometimes from our own. I see young people reading Catch-22, for instance, and they don't relate to it at all. We are very blind, in some ways, which may be a price we pay for our good fortune. I have sitting here Philip Roth's The Plot Against America. It will be very interesting.

[Sue]

Ellen, I'm American too. I have the same observations. I recall reading of England in the 1950s and thinking how different it was from my life. All of Europe took decades to recover from the war. Then there is the recovery of Japan. And all of Asia, which has been marked by repeated wars. And Africa by revolutions and insurgencies...as have the countries of South America. I think this book has woken me to what was happening throughout Europe after the War. How these things affect everyone. Some of what we see may reflect Naples of any time, but there does seem to be an aura left, all those things not said.

[Suzy]

Sue and Ellen - to your point about our lack of experience with war here in America (since the Civil War), we also did not experience the violence of the counter culture and class struggle of the '60's and '70's as they did in Europe, especially Italy and France. So in addition to getting a glimpse of the history from WWII, we also see much of what transpired in the late '60's in Ferrante's story. Italy's class struggle and breaking up of traditional societal rules starts toward the end of book 2 and plays a prominently in book 3. One thing I found striking when visiting Italy was that the national police still today carry automatic weapons - their nickname is Carabiniari! This is in part a result of the violence in the 1970's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Bri...

[[deleted user]]

Suzy wrote: "Sue and Ellen - to your point about our lack of experience with war here in America (since the Civil War), we also did not experience the violence of the counter culture and class struggle of the '..."

I've read of the Carabinari, years and years ago, don't remember where. I'd forgotten the Red Brigade.

Interesting, too, that you mention France. The breakdown of society there following WWII came up in our short story read this month, The Country Husband by John Cheever. Devastating. There's so much that happened shortly before I was born and during my childhood, so many news stories heard and photographs (you may or may not remember "Life" and "Look" magazines) that are buried deep in my mind, ready to emerge unbidden, images, recountings of retribution, all printed not only as news, but "lest we forget." But I believe we have forgotten, nonetheless.

[Sue]

I finished the book last night. That last paragraph was so devastating. I really want to read more.

And thanks for the reminders about France and Italy society.

[[deleted user]]

Sue wrote: "I finished the book last night. That last paragraph was so devastating. I really want to read more.

And thanks for the reminders about France and Italy society."

Oh, Sue, yes, I need to move on, also, to more. Maybe somewhere in a parallel universe I'm reading everything I need to read, all at once. That's a comfort.

I also have somewhere in my stacks here Italo Calvino, several. I'm told, by a young Italian friend, that I'm going to love him. It feels like worlds are opening up.

[Sue]

I have Calvino waiting too, Ellen, and I've heard the same about him.

[Suzy]

Ellen wrote: "Sue wrote: "I finished the book last night. That last paragraph was so devastating. I really want to read more.

And thanks for the reminders about France and Italy society."

Oh, Sue, yes, I need ..."

I love this idea of the parallel universe where we're reading everything that has piled up!

[Kat]

I was very interested in the following quote, from p. 43 of my Nook e-book. The narrator speaks of the “discovery” that the phrase used for childhood excuses, I didn’t do it on purpose, “…contained something true, hence uncontrollable, hence dangerous.” Then, after outlining what had and had not been done deliberately in the oral exam/demonstration, the narrator says, “The conclusion we drew from this convinced us that it was best to do everything on purpose, deliberately, so that you would know what to expect.”

Do others see this as an ongoing theme in the book? The question of agency, of acting on one's own behalf rather than just letting things happen? I asked myself which of the two girls is more "active" in this sense but couldn't decide. They both seem to go along with the tide to a certain extent, but the tide carries them different places.

[Kat]

(Just back from a six-day trip and hoping to be more active myself in the rest of the discussion!)

[Sue]

That's an interesting thought, Kat. And it does seem to pass between the two. I initially tended to think of Lila as the one who primarily acted for herself, but Elena won her ability to go to school and continued to manage the support needed.

[[deleted user]]

Sue wrote: "That's an interesting thought, Kat. And it does seem to pass between the two. I initially tended to think of Lila as the one who primarily acted for herself, but Elena won her ability to go to scho..."

Kat wrote: "I was very interested in the following quote, from p. 43 of my Nook e-book. The narrator speaks of the “discovery” that the phrase used for childhood excuses, I didn’t do it on purpose, “…contained..."

Yes, yes, Kat, I can feel Lila ticking off the possibilities for her life, the trade-offs, the small gains, what feels like a fatal decision (but I don't know yet) to give up her mind for an escape from her home, from the devils she knows... Lila is active in her decision making, maybe, as you say, choosing insofar as she can, which tide to allow to carry her away. She can't, in my reading, see outside the neighborhood.

While Lena can, somehow she can see that there is another life, the views she had of the streets where the wealthy strolled, shopped, displayed themselves one to another. A minor horizon, but a horizon. My guess (this is the only one of the four books I've read in the series) is that her education will eventually widen her horizons. But I do feel her constant march toward the horizon she can see is a choice.

They have limited choices, they drift, because they have limited exposure to the possibilities, do you think? (I'm asking myself if this is why we lose so many children, by not bringing them to someplace high and showing them even a glimpse of what they don't know is there -- yes, like the devil tempting Jesus in the desert -- we need to tempt our children more.)