Wild Things: YA Grown-Up discussion
Fantasy/Sci-Fi
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Uglies series by Scott Westerfield
These books remind me of quite a few Twilight Zone episodes. It's funny how each generation needs a "lesson" in this subject! I have read the first two and really enjoyed them. Not enough that I am running out to buy the next two, but enough that I WILL get to them.I think Westerfield has a gift with language. He creates these terrifically catchy slang words that really immerse you in the world he is presenting. Because they are not now, it relly helps to suspend disbelief.
Are we allowing spoilers in this thread at all? Because as you go on through the stories, it goes much deeper than beauty...
yeah, I have just read Uglies and Pretties so far. I have Specials reserved at the library.Uglies took awhile to get going, but once it did I was pretty hooked to the story, and I did think Pretties was better April, so you should give it a shot sometime :) I think I read somewhere that Pretties is Misty's favorite too.
Yep, Pretties was my fave. I think that's where the story deepens and SPOILER ALERT!
it is revealed that the surgeries are not just to make people pretty but to make them "bubbleheads." And when I read it, it made perfect sense. People are very vain, yes, and in large groups they do some crazy things, yes. But it would be hard to get everyone to:
a) agree to extensive surgery to be pretty
b) agree what "pretty" is
c) be Utopic and happy all the time.
There are always going to be pot-stirrers, and there are always going to be people that rebel. So to make it work, you have to make them docile and the ultimate cliche: pretty, but empty. This really added a layer to the stories for me.
That's exactly right. The world would never be able to agree on what beauty was unless they were made...mentally vacant and very, very open to suggestion. Bubbleheadedness is such a perfect description of what the surgery is trying to achieve. I have only read the first two, but I don't fully understand the Specials job and the need for it. I know there are always going to be dissenters, but it seems there's a pretty large source of Specials if that's ALL they do, is round them up and either "fix" them or make them Specials too.
I can't wait to read the next two.
The only one I haven't read yet is Extras, but it is on my TBR. I liked the first book the best and Pretties was a close second, but I didn't like the third one very much.
I remember the first book, Uglies, had alluded to the part of the brain being removed during the pretty-surgery. It fascinates me that, if I am analyzing this correctly, the surgery is to force compliance. I love the ethics and philosophy that pop up. Do we only fight because we look different from one another, and our anger stems from poor self-esteem? Is compliance necessary to maintain a Utopia? Gosh, this is fascinating. Any thoughts?
April wrote: "I remember the first book, Uglies, had alluded to the part of the brain being removed during the pretty-surgery. It fascinates me that, if I am analyzing this correctly, the surgery is to force com..."That's the thing. You think it's just looks, but its not. The surgery to make them bubbleheaded makes them sheep. That's what reduces the anger and fighting. When you make it to Specials, you start to see that in places where the surgeries are purely cosmetic, there is more tension.
I really liked these books. I think Scott Westerfeld is a genius. I was fasinated by what everyone in the stories went through. I feel like the emotions in the stories were real, and considering the age of the characters, they were completely possible. I liked all 4 of the books. I thought the ending in Specials was great, and could it could easily have stopped there. I am glad that Extras isn't a continuation of Tally's story, even though Tally is still there.
I think one of my favorite things about this series was the characterization. I didn't feel that any character remained one dimensional. There were complexities to each character, and they all had something about life to teach us.
If you haven't read them, I strongly recommend them!!
I finished Uglies about three weeks ago and the ending left me intrigued enough that I wanted to read the next book in the series. I am actually reading Pretties right now and am about 100 pages in. I think that a lot of you brought up interesting points about this series. At first I wondered about the concept of being ugly vrs. pretty. Is ugly what we would consider normal and after surgery we become pretty (such as stopping the aging process or fixing a bodily part we do not find to be pretty)? Also the language and some of the concepts took getting use to like bubbly-making or hoverboarding.
Angela, I think you have the idea of ugly v. pretty down pretty well. Most of us would be considered uglies. It mentions in the books that there are those very few people who are born pretty. Being considered ugly could mean your nose or ears are just a little too large for your face, or your eyes are set a little to far apart, you have a more prominent chin, or your features are not perfectly symetrical. Any of that would make you ugly in their society. After the surgery, from what I understand, your features become perfectly symetrical, your skin is smoothed and evened out, clear skin etc. I don't think it completely stops the aging proccess, because they talk about middle pretties (the parents and older generation) and 'late'? pretties etc. So, you still age, but it will be perfect aging. I would imagine that you have little or no wrinkles, age spots etc. It's an interesting idea.
I think it is especially 'scary' because there are so many people in our society who want to be beautiful, and do go through extensive surgery to become the physical ideal.
The problem I see with the whole idea is that all that plastic surgery makes people uglier. I mean you can have perfect (plastic) skin and symetrical features and be so ugly it's hard to look at. So the idea of being ugly just because your looks are natural doesn't sit well with me.
Linda Grace wrote: "The problem I see with the whole idea is that all that plastic surgery makes people uglier. I mean you can have perfect (plastic) skin and symetrical features and be so ugly it's hard to look at. ..."I think that is part of the point he is making with his series. The beautification surgery is not just symetrical features, but that is part of it. The idea here is the government studied what people thought beauty was, and made everyone into that so no one is beautiful any longer. In a distant sort of way, it is similar to making kids wear school uniforms. If everyone dresses the same, clothes are no longer a distraction, or a status symbol. If everyone is beautiful, beauty no longer means anything.
This series does make the point that just because your features are not perfect, or just because you are not the classic example of beauty does not mean that you are ugly. They were taught to believe themselves ugly all growing up because they weren't a pretty, but it's just a label.
It's been a while since I read the series, but I remember coming away with the idea that Westerfeld is making a point in these novels. I thought they were very well done, well written, and they did not leave you with the idea that I have to be beautiful to be something in life. Quite the opposite actually. They give the idea that life could and will be ok even if I am never considered absolutely beautiful, instead I can find beauty in my own self and that is not only good enough, but definitely to be preferred and desired.
My problem wasn't with the books. I liked them quite a bit actually. It was just the concept of ugly that I didn't like. I guess without that though, the government would not have seemed so corrupt.
I just finished Pretties and I did like this one better. The whole concept is really disturbing, but also intriguing at the same time. I just love the language they use: happy-making, bubbly-making and there were a couple time where I chuckled at something Tally said. Thanks Ashley for your perspective on the series. Very insightful:)
Thanks Angela. I really like them, and I'm glad that what I said made sense... :) Linda Grace, I agree that the concept of 'ugly' is annoying/upseting, but the way that I thought/think of it is a control mechanism. There are a lot of people who have certain features (nose too big, mouth to small, age lines etc) that they would be ok with having plastic surgery to remove, or change. However, most people are not willing to go under extensive plastic surgery to completely change their entire appearance. In order to make an entire population willing to undergo an incredibly extensive surgery, they need to make the entire population extrememly uncomfortable and unhappy with their own physical appearance.
To convince people of this, you must start when they are small. So, if you begin telling a child they are 'ugly' before they are even able to understand what the word means, eventually they will begin to believe it too. This child not only beleives they are ugly, they live in a town called Uglyville (or something...), and they are constantly shown pictures of what pretty people look like. They are also exposed to computer type programs that allows them to play around with, and experiment with what they will look like beautiful. By this point, not only do they believe that they are ugly, but that everyone else around them is ugly too, and the only way to not only be pretty, but also to be accepted into society is to undergo surgery to become 'pretty'.
Although I agree that it is a flawed definition of pretty and ugly, it is the only one that would work for the control purposes the government desires. That is why it's dystopian ;).
They needed the plastic surgeries to control the populus, and who would volunteer for surgery like that unless they had been coached and brainwashed from birth into believing it was a necessary part of life, and the only way they will ever be beautiful. My guess is that the people at the head of the corrupt government probably don't view the majority of people as ugly. They simply tell everyone that they are in order to gain that level of control over them.
I dunno... Maybe it's just me who feels that way, but oh well. Linda Grace, I am glad you liked the books! I think they are great too!
It reminds me of the experiment that the teacher did when she said that all the kids who had blue eyes where special and to treat the brown eyed kids as unspecial. They did not play with the brown eyed kids, called them stupid, and overall just gave them low self-esteem. This happened in one day!!! When I watched that video, I was amazed at how easily (I think they were in second grade) they turned on their friends because they had brown eyes just because someone in authority or control (like the government) told them so.
Angela wrote: "Linda Grace, I agree that the concept of 'ugly' is annoying/upseting, but the way that I thought/think of it is a control mechanism."That's exactly how I feel. You can get people to do what you want -- a lot of things they wouldn't otherwise do -- if you prey on their insecurities. And what better way to make sure that everyone, an entire society, an entire world , is manageable and controllable than to create the insecurities adn then prey on them. Brilliant and creepy.
I know! I think Westerfeld is a little bit of a genius...
Angela, I've definately seen that video you are talking about several times (for classes) and it truly is fascinating how easy it is to condition people into prejudice, simply because they want to please others.Reading this discussion has been fascinating for me, and I definately want to make the effort to read the others of the series soon.
April, I definitely recommend reading the rest of them! They are great reads! Go for it!
The whole ugly/pretty thing, I think, is a commentary on our current society-we are supposed to be annoyed that he would dare say what is ugly or pretty. All over TV, in book descriptions, on the cover of magazines, etc is the "example" of beauty. There are few people today that don't have body issues because they don't live up to a made up idea that is being marketed everywhere. More than creating this distopia of mindless clones for the sake of the story, Westerfield is challenging teenagers thoughts of who defines beauty and why it is valued above other more long lasting attributes.I loved how thought provoking these books were on many levels and would love to revisit them. This is a great discussion, I enjoyed reading all the input and ideas. Thanks.
The first three books of this series are, and I think will remain, three of my favorite books ever. I think they're genius and look forward to reading more Westerfeld. I saw the whole ugly/pretty theme not only as itself but also as symbolic of widespread government/corporate manipulation of opinion and values. On top of all the thought provoking things that existed in these books it was also an amazing story with real and interesting characters. I've enjoyed hearing what everyone has had to say about these.
Angela,A similar experiment dealt with black dolls and white dolls. It made me cry to see children reject the black dolls.
I had a lot of trouble with Extras. It just did seem to fit in and the writing felt different. I did not enjoy it nearly as much as I enjoyed the first three, like Inoli said.
Lydia wrote: "Angela,A similar experiment dealt with black dolls and white dolls. It made me cry to see children reject the black dolls.
I had a lot of trouble with Extras. It just did seem to fit in and th..."
I watched that video when I read the Bluest Eye, because I remembered a teacher saying something about it. It was so crazy, because it was all children rejecting the black dolls, black children included. I cried, too.
Lydia wrote: "Angela,I had a lot of trouble with Extras. It just did seem to fit in and the writing felt different. I did not enjoy it nearly as much as I enjoyed the first three, like Inoli said. "
I liked Extras. I thought it was very good. It was just a different story - revisiting the same world. The story itself didn't captivate me nearly as much as what I consider the original story. As a standalone book it wasn't really bad at all. It was, after all, an afterthought. I thought Westerfeld's dedication was pretty funny: "To all those who wrote me revealing the secret definition of the word trilogy".
I did not particularly enjoy Extras either. It was just such a different story, and I didn't WANT to finish reading it, but felt that after three good books in the series, I owed it to Westerfeld. I wasn't impressed.I guess the books are so good because people are already so obsessed with "pretty" or different (me included). It's scary because it can happen. (Or should I say, it is happening already?)
When I started readin Uglies, I thought omg, what kind of book have I got here. I heard loads of rave reviews about this book, so I thought this might help me get back to readin again. WELL, what can I say about this book. It certainly gives you an insight to what we wanted to see of kids at the age of 16 and havin operations to be made like a supermodel. I can't wait til I read more on how Tally changes and her life.8/10 for me on this book and series so far.
I loved the series. I loved the character development, even though I was sad for Tally at times.
I've only read the first one so far but loved it and am going to read the rest!!
They are all great. I didn't like the last one as much. I also read the Bogus to Bubbly which explains the series which is good too.
Did you read the Bogus before after or during the series?? I hate reading out of order! LOL
I read Bogus after I finished the entire series. I didn't want them to explain things that I hadn't read yet.
Okay thanks Amy!! That is what I'm going to do too.
Late to this discussion, I know, but I just had to say that I absolutely LOVED Uglies! If I had teenage children, this book would be a must-read for them. The issues it makes you think about are relevant and essential to who we are becoming as a society. I haven't gotten my hands on the others in the series yet and I want to read them in order. But what's Bogus to Bubbly?
Bogus to Bubbly is just a book explaining how Westerfeld wrote the book. It talks about the research he did for the series and technologies in the book, like hoverboards and nanotechnology. How far we are from them today. It's interesting and just quick fun read. I would recommend reading it after you have read all of the other books because he talks about all of them in Bogus to Bubbly.
I enjoyed Bogus.I would definitely recommend reading if AFTER the whole series. Otherwise there are things that you get kind of confused about.
Thanks for the info! So many books, so little time...
I tried to read it but it said the page was cancelled.
Heather, thanks for posting that. It was a very interesting essay, something I had never thought of before! Thanks!
REading that post http://www.smartpopbooks.com/1290I have, but haven't read Bogus to Bubbly: An Insider's Guide to the World of Uglies cover to cover yet. I don't think I ever will. There is something sad with a road map to a fictional world. I like thinking of The Uglies World the way I imagined it when I read, re-read and will re-read it again. :D
“I’ll remember this, I swear. No matter what sweet things I say to you, trust me, I am not your friend” (Pretties).
And here's my comment on the Essay "Team Shay" http://bit.ly/a7ZXgE
I really liked bogus to bubbly. Haven't read all of the essay but it does make sense, the parts I did read.
I finally read the first in the series and really liked it. Although it ended with a TOTAL cliffhanger. Of course, I don't have the second book! *pout* Will get it sooN!
Yes you definitely need to read the rest of the series!
Just finished Pretties finally! So glad I decided to reread Uglies first to refresh my memory; plus you just pick up so much more on a second read. I liked Uglies better, but was better prepared for the cliffhanger-ending of Pretties.
Personally, I've only read Uglies which was okay. I wouldn't mind reading the others, but I haven't made it a priority. I think if the following books are better, I may read them.
To get the ball rolling with discussion pertaining to the novel, Scott Westerfield's world is based around beauty and surgical enhancement. I feel like beauty is such a valued quality here in America and surgical enhancement is becoming more and more valued. Do you think we could someday in the future we could wind up living like the people of this book. empty-headed, but beautiful?