Editio Self-Publishing discussion
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Self editing: please help!
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For dialogue punctuation this site gives a good basic rundown. http://storysensei.blogspot.ca/2008/0...Honestly, I would strongly suggest getting an editor though, even after you self edit the best of your ability. Other people will find things that you would have never noticed, because you are just too close to the story.
If your looking for an editor Amanda Hough https://www.goodreads.com/author/show...
Offers rates for Selfies - though you'd have to ask her what they are. I've briefly worked with her, and she was extremely helpful in giving me a critique.
Hope this somewhat helps!
What's handy is that you can directly look up most of your questions and get answers online. It would also be useful to get a solid college level grammar book to help you learn as well as referencing as you go along.
Thank you so much tianna! That website was wonderful in helping me confirm how to write dialogue.
Ie also have another question. I notice I start every sentence with either he, she, I, or we. Are there any alternatives to that?
The best thing you can do for yourself is to get a copy of The Chicago Manual of Style, 16th Edition. It's the industry standard for publishing, and will answer pretty much every question you have that's related to editing.You can also use the online site for it, and get a free one-month trial membership to see what it's all about, but I'd still recommend having the physical book in your hands.
Hiring a professional editor after all is completed on your end is almost essential, especially if you're having trouble with basics like sentence structure and dialogue. Self-editing is self-defeating in many cases, because you know your story and will "see" what you meant to write, whether it's actually written or not.
As far as someone publishing behind your back, I'm sure it must happen here and there, but I don't know that it's all that common. If I were you, I wouldn't let that fear stop me from hiring a professional. The key is to look around a LOT and not look for the lowest price only.
You mention that it will "cost too much," but if you haven't gotten sample edits or quotes from a variety of editors (seriously, get at least 3-5), you don't know how much each person will charge. Editors should provide a free edit of 2000-3000 words for you, so you can see what they will do to your manuscript (and what it needs). This is how they'll come up with the price of your edits, and this is where it really pays to do as much self-editing as possible prior to that step. Bottom line: the better shape your manuscript is in, the less costly your edits should be. If you don't know whether the sample edits are good or not (if you're really struggling with basics), ask someone to look at them. I can't tell you how many prematurely published books out there could have benefited from even one set of objective eyes.
I'd offer to take a look to give you advice, but I don't edit erotica. Sorry! Good luck with your work. I do have a few other books I use and can recommend, but for editing, Chicago is your best bet.
And you may wish to head over to the "Editors" thread to see about the free evals. I hope this helps!
Camryn wrote: "Hi. I'm writing a trilogy in the erotica romance/suspense genre. My first book is completely written, only it needs editing. I really want to edit myself since: a)I wouldn't know where to find a tr..."Hi Camryn,
I think the fact that you have all these concerns says you really need to consider an editor. Editors will also look for things besides punctuation and grammar errors. Overuse or misuse of words, tense, story flow, etc. You wrote it so the chances of you seeing these issues during editing are slim. If you are concerned about the cost, do as the others say and get quotes. Like AV said, even a program will occasionally miss things or try to correct things that don't need correcting.
And just as an FYI, I work for a publisher so I'm not just being bossy. We love seeing Indie authors succeed!
Sherri needs a twin wrote: "Camryn wrote: "Hi. I'm writing a trilogy in the erotica romance/suspense genre. My first book is completely written, only it needs editing. I really want to edit myself since: a)I wouldn't know whe..." thank you. I noticed that I had plenty of reptititous words as I had mentioned earlier. Would an editor suggest words to substitute "he, she, I, and we?"
They would, or at least the ones I have worked with do. Ask around for suggestions from fellow authors.
Camryn wrote: "Would an editor suggest words to substitute "he, she, I, and we?"Camryn, I apologize if this sounds insulting, but if your question is sincere, you seem to need an awful lot of writing help, as your concerns deal with some the basics of writing. The pronouns he, she, I and we are already substitutes for the proper names of your characters. You may wish to hire a beta reader/content editor to read through for generalities, rather than specifics, before you go any further.
Since you seem to be new to Goodreads, I suggest lurking around some of the author boards and seeing what others are discussing. There are a few good threads which specifically deal with self-publishing and how to raise the quality of self-published books, and you may benefit from those.
Lynda wrote: "Camryn wrote: "Would an editor suggest words to substitute "he, she, I, and we?"Camryn, I apologize if this sounds insulting, but if your question is sincere, you seem to need an awful lot of wri..."
I've been so focused on fixing the big issues like not rushing the plot and other more relevant things, that I haven't been paying much attention to the minor things like word choices and dialogue structure. I have some people who are willing to be beta readers which is definitely helpful. I've also found a few books on helping edit the smaller things.
Camryn wrote: "I've been so focused on fixing the big issues like not rushing the plot and other more relevant things, that I haven't been paying much attention to the minor things like word choices and dialogue structure.Betas will definitely help you with the overall scope of things, then. One of my author friends goes through her manuscript several times after finishing the first draft, focusing on something different each time. Word usage, verb tense, real-sounding dialogue, character voice, background descriptions, timeline, physical descriptions, and more. Each gets its own run-through.
It might help, also, to give a list of questions to your betas (if they're inexperienced) to make sure they look for the issues you are unsure about. That way, their feedback will be constructive and helpful in the long run.
Good luck!
Thanks for all the help from everyone. I figured I'd just let everyone know that this is my first draft. I was told it would be a good idea to write it and forget about it for a few months. Look at it with fresh eyes. In the mean time, I have a beta reader taking a look at what doesn't make sense, and I'm educating myself with books and websites to help me edit. I think my book will probably not be ready to publish for longer than I expected, unfortunately. I won't publish it until I run through it ten times to make sure of no errors. If I'm editing it myself, I'm going to need to make sure there aren't any errors. I'd hate for that to detract from the story.
Pretty much all of my questions got answered. The only one I still wondered about was substituting words for "he, she, me, or I". Most of my sentences start with that. I'll look into that more, but if you had any suggestions of how to fix that, I would greatly appreciate it. Here's an example of one of the lines. If you have any suggestions to substitute "his", please comment it.
"His nearly black eyes rake over me from across the room. He walks with such confidence, I can't seem to look away. His voice is like silk when he finally speaks."
Again, these examples are more exaggerated than what's actually in the text, but I couldn't find an exact example. I just wanted to make sure you could see exactly what I meant.
To get ideas for other things to start sentences with, just pick up a book you like in the genre you're writing in. See what they do. :) This is also helpful for dialogue - pick up a book where you like the dialogue and see how it's written.Something I find helpful for self-editing is to get a text-to-speech program which will read your book out loud to you. There are a lot of things you can't see when reading that will immediately sound wrong when you hear them.
The things you're using to break up your dialogue are called 'beats', and in my opinion having one after every piece of dialogue is too much.
There are a few books I'd recommend -
Self-Editing for Fiction Writers - $5.74 used (http://www.amazon.com/Self-Editing-Fi...)
This points out some common mistakes that beginning writers make, and how to fix them.
The Elements of Style - $0.49 used (http://www.amazon.com/Elements-Style-...)
This is a quick (66 pages) rundown of basic grammar and writing rules.
Another thing you might find useful is Pro Writing Aid. It's a free program that will analyze your text for you and give you a lot of useful information, including overused words, grammar, cliches, etc. It's not perfect, but it's useful and free.
http://prowritingaid.com/en/Analysis/...
Adding to Jonahtan-David's post... I have been in recording sessions recently to have audiobooks of my first two novels, and speaking the words out loud and then hearing them in playback has brought to light a few things I wish I could go back and tweak... and this is after professional editors hacked both books! From now on, I will DEFINITELY record the audiobook prior to publication, which will also parallel as a "final edit." Highly recommending it. Good luck!Cheers!
Hi Camryn. And indeed, hi anyone thinking about the question of self-editing vs getting an editor. I was at the York Festival of Writing last year, and the question came up in a similar vein about whether you should get an agent (if trying for traditional publishing), or try and sell your book privately. The advice was that you can do it privately if you have a full understanding of the business, the economics, the process and the publishing world.
To some extent, the same is true of self-editing. Sure, the Chicago Manual will help you, but it's pretty hefty reading and it only really helps if you know what you're looking for - if you think to look for rules on periods and semi-colons, it'll give you the rules on them. If you don't think to look for those rules, it can't help you out with them.
The market for editors is fluid and potentially full of sharks. Which is why you should be very careful if you decide to go that way.
This is probably considered spamming, and if so, I apologise in advance, as it's not my intention, but I run an editing house and the question seemed apposite. We offer completely free, no obligation sample chapter edits. That way, nobody hands over cash for an edit without being confident they're getting a service that's useful to them. That's not some special offer, but a cornerstone of our business model, because we exist to help writers. Things like that - or indeed the special rate for self-publishers that was mentioned earlier - hopefully help to separate the field into editors who are just in it for the money and those who can be of some genuine assistance to writers.
Oh and a sample chapter edit would probably help answer your question about substitutes for "he", "she" etc. In the example you give: "His nearly black eyes rake over me from across the room. He walks with such confidence, I can't seem to look away. His voice is like silk when he finally speaks." - I think the use of "His" and "He" to start these sentences is fine, as it helps build a charged, erotic atmosphere within this context; it feels almost breathless, and it draws the focus directly to the man, which is where the speaker's focus would be. The wider context of the scene would help to determine whether these usages become overkill when read. I'd have more of an issue in these lines with "nearly black" and particularly "like silk" which is cliched. (Shrugs) Hope that's of some help.
Again, I hope this isn't considered spamming, but anyone interested in the free sample chapter edits, take a look here: http://jefferson-franklin.co.uk/2014/...
A.V. wrote: "Michael wrote: "Adding to Jonahtan-David's post... I have been in recording sessions recently to have audiobooks of my first two novels, and speaking the words out loud and then hearing them in pla..."Golden piece of advice, this. If you read your work out loud, you'll very often find where the words don't work, or the punctuation's wrong by virtue of where you breathe, and you'll also find more spelling mistakes because reading as if for performance, you tend to skip ahead less than reading in your head, you you "see" more of the words. If you can, always read your work out loud.
Wonderful advice everyone! Thanks so much for helping and I will definitely try reading it out loud. All of these are great.
I really think you should bite the bullet and hire an editor. Even if it's just someone you know who is good with proper grammar. I'm going to be honest,here: I don't think you will be able to self edit.
I DO have an excellent grasp on grammar and proper English and I still hire an editor. For many reasons, but the main one is that I do not believe one can properly edit one's own work. You know what you are trying to say, so you will frequently miss places where you need to rewrite. I cannot catch everything. And my grasp of language is not perfect. I miss stuff. I miss typos, I miss grammar, I miss unclear sentence structure. I even miss anachronistic speech and issues with story details and flow.
I go over my stuff with a fine tooth comb, rewrite, proof, spell check, obsess over...and THEN I send it to my editor. She sends it back all covered with red pen. I fix everything, send it to print, get a copy back, and THEN go over that book AGAIN with another fine tooth comb and fix the hundred or so problems I still find with it due to human error, code problems in the document that happen during the data transfer, formatting errors, and straight up stuff we both managed to miss (granted, my editor misses very, very little).
If you are asking these basic questions that you are asking, you're not going to be able to self edit. You need someone to help you out on this, even if it's just a friend who's good at grammar.
I'm not trying to bust you down, but I think you should be realistic here. Don't short change your work. Do the best you can on it.
Also, I don't think anyone's going to publish it behind your back. I mean, maybe it happens, but the way copyright works now, you're probably safe.
You know what? My first draft is online right now. Yeah, you can go to my site, read it, copy it, whatever. I don't care. It's terrible and full of typos. Nobody's gonna steal it. You know why? Because I can prove I had it first. And because it would be less hassle for someone to write a novel than it would be to steal mine. And because someone reading my stuff and stealing it is so unlikely as to be laughable, simply because getting someone to read my stuff in the first place is like pulling teeth. :-DDDD
If you're that worried about it, email it to yourself or something so you can have a date stamped copy. Email it to someone else so you have a witness. Go to a notary with it. But I believe you are worrying for nothing.
Regina wrote: "I really think you should bite the bullet and hire an editor. Even if it's just someone you know who is good with proper grammar. I'm going to be honest,here: I don't think you will be able to se..."
Thank you for your advice as well. I have a beta reader so far helping me with edits, and I'll be getting a few more. Do you know of a good editor who is affordable?
I don't. Sorry. I got really lucky with mine, and she's not taking any more work on at the moment. Otherwise, I'd send you her way. I think the beta readers are a good place to start. That will probably set you on the right path.
Also, I will share with you that when you are getting ready to sit down for a writing session, it may help to pull out a well-written book from an author you like that you have noticed does something really well. For instance, when I was starting out, if I knew I was going to be writing a lot of dialog, I'd read some Joe R. Lansdale, who is good at dialog. If I needed some inspiration on good descriptions, I'd pull out some Tony Hillerman. Pay attention to how the writing is constructed. You can learn a lot from this sort of thing.
Good luck with it!
Camryn wrote: "Do you know of a good editor who is affordable?"Sigh...I'm affordable but I don't do erotica.
However, if you go to the "Editors" threads here, there are plenty (go to the most recent posts) who are available. The trick here is to make sure you get evaluations of your manuscript (about 2000-3000 words' worth) before deciding. Evals should always be free, so it costs you nothing to get a sample and an estimate of costs from a variety of people. Check them out first. You don't want to throw your money away on a hack.
Thank you Regina. I notice that certain books are good influences on my writing, just like you had suggested. Anyone writing in the erotic romance or erotica genre looking for a good influence on their writing, I would recommend Sylvia Day. Everything is so beautifully done in her books, and I as well as my beta readers actually noticed a good change in my writing after reading her books.
Camryn wrote: "Thanks for all the help from everyone. I figured I'd just let everyone know that this is my first draft. I was told it would be a good idea to write it and forget about it for a few months. Look at..."That's a great idea. I've worked as a freelance editor with authors for a little over five years now, and there comes a point where each one of them has had to take a step back. I've done about forty projects, only six of them were erotica, but if you haven't found someone to help edit yet, I'd be happy to take a look. We can do a sample chapter together and try to eliminate some of those repetitive words. nataliewestwriting.com
-are there any books to help people edit? Things that show you what to look out for and how to structure sentences? If so, please recommend some.
-dangling participles, incomplete sentences, and other things like that. I can tell if a sentence doesn't feel right, but I really have no idea how to fix it. I started learning about dangling participles and figure that I have a lot of these. Unfortunately, I don't fully have a grasp on what those are and how to fix them. Can someone give an example of what it might be and how to fix it?
-Structuring dialogue. I can't figure out how to do that either. Do you need to press enter for every new pice of dialogue? I think so, but I'm just double checking. Here's an example of something I'm curious about:
"When writing dialogue, we are supposed to use commas after," I said.
"Or is it better to end it with a period and then write the inflection." I asked quizzically.
This comes up a lot in my writing, so any information you can offer is much needed.
I understand they are both questions, so ignore the lack of a question mark. Which leads me to my next question. If I am writing with questions marks, how is that done?
"Is it like this?" I asked.
"Or like this," I asked.
I hope that made sense, I'm trying to explain it best I can. It confuses me terribly to not know how to structure the dialogue, so any help that you can offer in the comments or a helpful website that teaches me to do this would be greatly appreciated.
-next, I noticed that I had a lot of broken dialogue. Basically, I'm describing the inflection in which it was said, or what they did after. Let me know if this is too broken up:
"How was work?" Sally asked while hanging up her raincoat.
"Still awful," I replied while taking a bite of food.
"Why don't you just take the new job?" She pulled up a chair next to me.
"Because I can't afford to relocate right now." I answered her somberly.
Okay, do you get what I'm saying? It seems a little too broken, but does that bother anyone else?
-lastly, I wonder if anyone has ever self edited before and actually became successful. I'm afraid I won't be able to edit myself and actually do well. Are there any websites that help teach basic and advanced editing skills? Also, how much are editors? Where can I find a good trustworthy editor that knows what they're doing that won't cost a fortune, if I decide I can't do it myself.
Thanks so much for helping. I feel like I have a really good story on my hands, and if I could get it edited right, it could do well. I don't want to ruin the story by not editing it properly. Thanks so much for your help, it means a lot!