My name is Butterfly: March group read

[kisha, The Clean Up Lady]

Oh my I'm scared lol. It should be tonight so we shall see!

Thanks for the book references. I think you have read every book ever! lol

[kisha, The Clean Up Lady]

I have finished this book. And I won't say much about the ending because we haven't really discussed it yet. So I will say while I spoke horribly of the first 2/3 of the book, I really liked the last 1/3 of the book. I loved the epilogue! Does that surprise you Beverly? haha I can see how people could absolutely hate it however. But I don't want to ruin our discussion so I will wait to elaborate.

How many of us are finished or still reading? If everyone is done then I suppose we can move up the discussion and discuss as a whole book. If not we can still break it down into half. Lulu, have you decided if you will read it?

[Lulu, The Book Reader who could.]

I'm about to start reading it now

[Beverly]

kisha wrote: "Oh my I'm scared lol. It should be tonight so we shall see!

Thanks for the book references. I think you have read every book ever! lol"

Ok Kisha - You are making feel really old :)
But I love connecting readers with books.

[Beverly]

kisha wrote: "I have finished this book. And I won't say much about the ending because we haven't really discussed it yet. So I will say while I spoke horribly of the first 2/3 of the book, I really liked the ..."

Yes and no - Not that surprised because you like BM books more than I do. And I suspect you are a bigger reader of women's fiction than I am.

But not going to say much more (well maybe at the discussion end) as want others to read with an open mind.

[Lulu, The Book Reader who could.]

50% done. Interesting concept, but the writing is coming across as though she is a novice and this is her first book. I'm looking forward to the end.

[kisha, The Clean Up Lady]

Don't feel old! You all make me feel like a beginner reader lol. You, Londa and Andrew keep me up to par with my reading and make it so I NEVER have nothing to read so I love it!

[kisha, The Clean Up Lady]

Lulu, that was a great way of describing it. That's exactly how I felt, as if this is first book material.

[Anastasia Kinderman]

kisha wrote: "Lulu, that was a great way of describing it. That's exactly how I felt, as if this is first book material."

Is it possible that it was? Like don't authors sometimes have works they write before a bestseller and those works only get published after?

[kisha, The Clean Up Lady]

Good thinking Anastasia! They do that all the time. But as an established writer she should've made some changes lol

[Anastasia Kinderman]

kisha wrote: "Good thinking Anastasia! They do that all the time. But as an established writer she should've made some changes lol"

Yeah I agree, I feel like the beginning could've used a bit more fleshing out.

[Anastasia Kinderman]

Actually, now that I think about it, I've noticed that when artists get big (including writers) and have a lot of fans an interest develops in the work they were doing before their hit work so you can have things published that aren't up to par with previously published works. Maybe that's what this was.

[kisha, The Clean Up Lady]

Thats true. Maybe that's what happened to Eric Jerome Dickey.

[R.E.]

Most people think that Ghrishams first novel was The Firm, but it was actually A Time to Kill, and it only sold a few thousand copies on it's first release. They re-released it seven years later and it sold millions. Go figure!

[Beverly]

kisha wrote: "I'm past the halfway mark and I can't stop thinking, am I really reading a BM novel? Anyone who has ever done a buddy read with me should know that I'm a pretty hard critic. This will be no diff..."

I did not necessarily think Grandma was evil - as mentioned her character was not flushed out/developed.
She had here beliefs/her culture and while it was common enough for many to believe co-believe in their traditional religion and the religion of the colonizer. She lived in the rural area so why would she not expect her son to follow their traditional beliefs that she truly believed worked.
Yes, there was tension between the grandmother and her daughter-in-law and yet again we do not know the cause of this - was it something specific between the two of them or once again could it be because the grandmother expected her daughter-in-law to respect and honor her wishes in a more traditional manner.

[kisha, The Clean Up Lady]

R.E. wrote: "Most people think that Ghrishams first novel was The Firm, but it was actually A Time to Kill, and it only sold a few thousand copies on it's first release. They re-released it seven years later an..."
Yes, sort of like Stephen King's 11/22/63. It wasn't actually published but I believe he credit it as his first novel but when he was fishing for a publisher everyone turned it down because the reference to JFK and Oswald was still to new and would possibly be considered offensive and insensitive to his family and people who cared for him.

[kisha, The Clean Up Lady]

Beverly wrote: "kisha wrote: "I'm past the halfway mark and I can't stop thinking, am I really reading a BM novel? Anyone who has ever done a buddy read with me should know that I'm a pretty hard critic. This w..."

Oh I thought she was pure evil! lol. I respect your ability to look deep into her character and have that understanding that I usually have but in this case....I'm judging! Ok so I totally understand the religious factors involved. But she came in from the beginning with a snobbish attitude and wanting to take over.

Her relationship with Lemusi was clearly damaged from things BM failed to mention chose to leave to the readers imagination. But it seems like there may have been some jealousy there. As if her son, Kwasi wasn't who she wanted him to be because of Lemusi possibly. And then what she did to the baby in that tub! Merciless!

[kisha, The Clean Up Lady]

WARNING MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS FROM CHAPTER 1 TO CHAPTER 21 FROM THIS POINT

*****DISCUSSION QUESTIONS CHAPTER 1-21*****

1. Who are your least/favorite characters and why?
2. How did you feel about Kwasi sending Abebe to Trokosi?
3. What are your thoughts about Trokosi and it's organization? Do you think it was manipulation and brainwashing or do you believe the priest and Duma believed it was truly a calling and duty?
4. What were your thoughts about Lemusi forgiving Kwasi and coming back? And about her beginning to believe Grandmother and Kwasi's beliefs about the other gods?

[Beverly]

R.E. wrote: "Most people think that Ghrishams first novel was The Firm, but it was actually A Time to Kill, and it only sold a few thousand copies on it's first release. They re-released it seven years later an..."

I read it on the first release - mainly because of the subject matter :)

Actually did not read any of his books until Sycamore Row.

But yes, when an author has a "breakout" novel - the demand for their prior books increase - so much easier to do in the age of ebooks.

I know that My Name is Butterfly has been around a little while just how long I do not know.

[Anastasia Kinderman]

Beverly wrote: "Yes, there was tension between the grandmother and her daughter-in-law and yet again we do not know the cause of this - was it something specific between the two of them or once again could it be because the grandmother expected her daughter-in-law to respect and honor her wishes in a more traditional manner. "

I got the feeling that some of the tension was because the Grandma was critical of their modern lifestyle. She didn't want a TV for example and seemed to look down on the city.

[Lulu, The Book Reader who could.]

Welp....I'm done.

[kisha, The Clean Up Lady]

Lol that was quick Lulu! What's your thoughts?

[Beverly]

Anastasia wrote: "Beverly wrote: "Yes, there was tension between the grandmother and her daughter-in-law and yet again we do not know the cause of this - was it something specific between the two of them or once aga..."

That is so true - the grandmother represented the old way. She probably wanted her son to marry a village girl. :)

[Lulu, The Book Reader who could.]

She picked an excellent subject to write about. I kind of wish we got more development in regards to the girls and Trokosi. I didn't really like how certain characters just popped in and served no real purpose...like the little lady that makes jewelry. I think she threw certain parts in, like the passport, to tie up loose ends. It wasn't that bad, it just left me hungry for more.

[kisha, The Clean Up Lady]

Anastasia wrote: "Beverly wrote: "Yes, there was tension between the grandmother and her daughter-in-law and yet again we do not know the cause of this - was it something specific between the two of them or once aga..."

I agree. She is clearly stuck in her ways like many elderly people. And I agree with Beverly that Lemusi definitely wasn't an ideal wife for Kwasi and that may very well be the reason there was so much tension between the two.

[Londa]

Just dipping in to say that I have started reading (28%), and to me it reads like a novella (its length supports this), and I evaluate novellas on a different set of parameters.

So far... I love it! I don't want to see any spoilers so I am backing out of this thread with my eyes covered. LOL

[kisha, The Clean Up Lady]

I'm glad you are liking it Londa! Let us know when you are finished

[Londa]

Alright...I'm done. I don't know why it affected me so much, but this story really touched me. I read a ton of sad novels, and I normally don't shed a tear. Maybe I mist up a little, but no tears flowing. Well, this made me cry. Good thing I finished during my lunch and can stay away from people for a bit.

[kisha, The Clean Up Lady]

Amazing Londa! This book didn't quite do it for me. I think this Novella should have been a a full novel considering the subject matter. Or maybe it was my lack of knowledge of the subject.

Londa I HAVE to know how you feel about Grandmother? So far I'm the only one lacking sympathy for her lol.
I think everybody is finished so it's safe to discuss without spoilers.

[Lulu, The Book Reader who could.]

I didn't like the Grandmother...nor the mother....nor the father. LOL

[kisha, The Clean Up Lady]

Same here! Especially the mother. How can you so easily not only turn on who you accepted as your child but your religion as well? All it took was a few bucks and an expensive dress and she was convinced! I didn't want to believe she was that gullible and selfish!

[Londa]

I think the Grandmother represented ignorance and blind faith. She absolutely believed that a curse was plaguing her son's family and that a trokosi offering was the only way to lift it. She seemed to have cared for Adebe in the beginning, so her swift acceptance of such a cruelty was jarring. Then again, there are too many cultures that place such a low value on girl's lives that this didn't alarm me. Yes, she cared for her, but that love and care only went so far.
1. She was a girl 2. She was adopted

With the baby, again, she believed she was helping him.

When I finished reading, the grandmother's act of betrayal did not stick out the most. I was most affected by an entire community/mindset/religion that promotes the idea that girls are 'less than' and should be treated 'less than'. Now THAT makes my blood boil.

[Londa]

The mother... now that character was not believable to me. Her actions did not ring true after she became pregnant. I just didn't believe she would forget Adebe and move on with her life that easily.

[Lulu, The Book Reader who could.]

It was believable to me. She had gotten so caught up in living that life. What was unrealistic to me was her offering to get a job after Kwasi lost his. LOL.

[Beverly]

Lulu wrote: "It was believable to me. She had gotten so caught up in living that life. What was unrealistic to me was her offering to get a job after Kwasi lost his. LOL."

I did not think it was unrealistic that she offered to work - she was a teacher and it was Kwasi who paid her quit in the first place as he as a 'big man' and did not want his wife to work.

[Beverly]

Londa wrote: "The mother... now that character was not believable to me. Her actions did not ring true after she became pregnant. I just didn't believe she would forget Adebe and move on with her life that easily."

Both the mother and the father loved up Adebe and she felt like she was a princess. They were doing all of that to keep face in front of the neighbors.

[Beverly]

Here is a link about ritual servitude:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual_s...

[kisha, The Clean Up Lady]

You all are making me look at this book in a new light! Londa, very valid point about the value of women. It's so easy to forget the different values in other countries. A woman would be of lesser value, especially a niece I suppose.

It's funny how much environment truly effects a person. In this situation the cultural beliefs trumped their spiritual beliefs. When you think about it, it happens every day. Christian people get tattoos, have sex, etc. Muslim women in America are becoming more Americanized allowing their hair to be free and wearing jeans. I know that doesn't compare to sacrificing a human lol. Just looking at the psychological of environment vs. spirituality.

[Beverly]

One of things this story points out is not only the abuse towards females (girls/women)but also the involvement of other women to allow the practice to go on.

And it also shows how strong beliefs can be - despite knowing the cruelty of the act.
There fear of the gods either retaliating against them kept in fear of speaking or acting against it.

[Beverly]

kisha wrote: "You all are making me look at this book in a new light! Londa, very valid point about the value of women. It's so easy to forget the different values in other countries. A woman would be of les..."

But there are many laws being proposed to take away rights that women have here in the US - so it is an ongoing fight that needs to be fought.

[Londa]

kisha wrote: "It's funny how much environment truly effects a person. In this situation the cultural beliefs trumped their spiritual beliefs..."

I will go further than that. Whether you want to assign their beliefs to culture or spirituality, those beliefs were based on religion. It does not really matter what religion because ANY religion can be used for justification for immoral behavior. To answer your question above,

What are your thoughts about Trokosi and it's organization? Do you think it was manipulation and brainwashing or do you believe the priest and Duma believed it was truly a calling and duty?

Some people truly are sociopaths. They don't have any empathy or guilt when they hurt others, but most of us know deep down in our gut when we are doing something wrong. We would know this whether or not their was a rule/law/commandment for it. The priests may believe it is their right to do these awful things, but they still know that the acts they are committing are heinous. They just have a convenient excuse to do the inexcusable.

[Londa]

Beverly wrote: "One of things this story points out is not only the abuse towards females (girls/women)but also the involvement of other women to allow the practice to go on...."

Exactly. The grandmother, Darkwa the woman who was in charge of the trokosi girls, the women who watched as Juba was brutalized...time and time again women failed each other.

But there was also hope. Taylor Adams was 1 woman, yet she managed to help. I felt that McFadden was saying that we as women are going to have to be the ones who step in and say NO! That is enough. These horrors will end now.

[Londa]

Here is a very good link. It profiles a woman who was trokosi for seventeen years before she escaped.

Juliana Dogbadzi, enslaved in a shrine in her native Ghana as a young child under a custom known as Trokosi, was forced to work without pay, without food or clothing, and to perform sexual services for the holy man. She was able to escape seventeen years later, after several failed attempts, at the age of twenty-three

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/...

[Anastasia Kinderman]

kisha wrote: "WARNING MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS FROM CHAPTER 1 TO CHAPTER 21 FROM THIS POINT

*****DISCUSSION QUESTIONS CHAPTER 1-21*****

1. Who are your least/favorite characters and why?
2. How did you feel about ..."

1 The Grandmother, father, adoptive mother, real mother, priests, etc. I had a lot of people I didn't like in this book. :P They were all so self-centered.

2 Angry and disgusted.

3 I find it offensive. I'm not sure what Duma and the priest really thought about their actions. I find that if you repeat something enough times to yourself you start to believe it. It's possible they didn't originally believe they were representing the gods but overtime started to believe they did.
I also imagine that there's a bit of that ol' "I'm male so I'm superior to women and I deserve to have my sexual "needs" gratified" going on there. Obviously women aren't valued in Ghana so I wonder if they even stopped to really think about what they were doing. If you believe you're superior because of your gender do you stop and think about how your actions might be affecting someone of the opposite gender? It's very selfish.
Specifically in reference to Duma I have yet another thought (sorry, this is long as I think it over). xD It's been my observation that rich kids, for example, tend to be self-entitled and bratty because they've been raised to believe the world revolves around them and no one's given them a smack of reality. I wonder if that might not be the case with Duma, he's been raised to believe he's so wonderful and so deserving. He's a brat.
Anyway, those were my thoughts as I pondered this question. :)
4 Oh my gosh, that spineless woman! I wanted to smack her. Something terrible happened to her niece/daughter, Abebe's gonna suffer! And she comes back to her husband and even forgets about Abebe in the excitement of getting pregnant. Why are people so heartless?! :'(

On another note: I honestly found Abebe's real mom's reaction to be unrealistic. Your daughter gets given as (basically) a sex slave to a pervert and you only search three days and then give up? I would've torn up the whole country and raised hell til I found her!

I think what's really striking me about this book is just how selfish people can be. And I need to stop now cuz this is long!

[Lulu, The Book Reader who could.]

Our cultures are different though. It seems as though Trokosi is very common and obviously has been around for a long time. Although there is western influence in the country a lot of the old traditions are still in place. So where we would spend an entire lifetime ACTIVELY looking for a missing loved one, they may handle things differently. What got me was how Abebe's real mom treated her once she finally made it back to her. Maybe it was guilt.

[Anastasia Kinderman]

Lulu wrote: "Our cultures are different though. It seems as though Trokosi is very common and obviously has been around for a long time. Although there is western influence in the country a lot of the old tradi..."

That's true, I guess I just expected a different reaction since she'd been so long in the U.S. She didn't seem to be big on adhering to tradition.

Yeah I think the book mentioned her feeling guilty but I was still shocked by her behavior. Especially when after she sees Abebe's scars she was like, "Well I've had a hard life too." I know things like divorce are painful so I don't want to belittle it but at the same time.....I'm sorry, what you've gone through does not compare to being abandoned by everyone who loves you, living as a sex slave, and losing your child.

[Lulu, The Book Reader who could.]

I agree!!!!

[Carl]

Londa wrote: "Here is a very good link. It profiles a woman who was trokosi for seventeen years before she escaped.

Juliana Dogbadzi, enslaved in a shrine in her native Ghana as a young child under a custom kn..."

I just read that article. I cannot believe that this is still happening. How superstitious can people be?

Actually, it's not even superstitious, it's selfish. I would gladly go to hell to suffer all of eternity than to let my daughter suffer for one minute.

This is not a cultural issue. Protecting children, whether they are your children or not, should be as natural as sleeping.

I'm on Chapter 14. I'll comment on the book once I finish 21. So far, it's really upsetting me.

[kisha, The Clean Up Lady]

Anastasia I agree with you about her biological mother. She was a great aunt but when it was time to be a mother She failed. She was extremely selfish. I understand her not raising Abebe due to circumstances however her lack of responsibility and selfishness afterwards was appalling. And I agree she didn't search long or hard enough for Abebe.

Carl, I too agree about morality over culture or religious practice. It seems as though parental extinct would kick in in every culture. I am learning through literature and research how different cultures interpret parenting and morality. It's hard for even the most understanding and socioeconomically educated person to not judge certain cultural beliefs. I'm still not quite over Middle Eastern feminism beliefs and now this!

[Anastasia Kinderman]

kisha wrote: "Anastasia I agree with you about her biological mother. She was a great aunt but when it was time to be a mother She failed. She was extremely selfish. I understand her not raising Abebe due to ..."

Yeah, I think I would've felt more sympathy for her and been more understanding if she hadn't tried to make her pain seem as bad as Abebe's. That just ticked me off.

Not to take the thread off topic but I'm a bit curious now, mind telling me more about Middle Eastern feminist beliefs?