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The King In Yellow
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DISCUSSION OPEN! - EMERGENCY GROUP READ - True Detective + The Yellow King
Mod
I think episode two spoke to this a little. They talk about how the scientists are fairly secretive, and also how the funding goes through different shell companies. So, not your typical, private / public partnership. But, fair point. I don't think you can do things like take deep core samples or run extensive DNA tests without a little help (correct me if I'm wrong).
I've also got nothing about the caribou, but we have to have some secrets!
Whitney wrote: "But, fair point. I don't think you can do things like take deep core samples or run extensive DNA tests without a little help (correct me if I'm wrong)."You probably could do both with modern technology, but these don't sound like the guys who'd (literally) dirty their hands with the scut work. You work five to ten years to get a PhD—for a good part of that doing the scut work for professors—and then likely a few more as a post-doc before you get a Research Scientist position. You DON'T want to be doing physical labor!
And for the record, the job I just retired from was the scut work :) It took ME 34 years to get a bachelor's degree.
OK I am here. I mean it takes place in Alaska....
Whitney wrote: "Excellent! Discussion now open for anything having to do with the first episode. So question to get things going. WTF? (That's it, that's the question.)
Where the first season flirted with the s..."
I go with the flow.
OK. I am liking all so far. And nothing is what it seems.
I saw shit on the internet about episode 2 and links to the first season and don't necessarily want to rewatch season one along with this season but maybe ....
I said in another group that Alaska and Iceland are pretty close along the lines of longitude / latitude. Iceland has much more warmer temps than we do in the winter, thus making filming easier and more comfortable. I suspect. (our summers are much warmer than Iceland) This week all week and into next week we are at minus 30 to 40 . (Fairbanks)
I have been to Iceland with my son and he said that it felt like home.
Also I am acquaintances with a native woman in Episode 2. I hope she is in more.
Derek wrote: "That's a ginormous research station for 8 eggheads -- and where are their staff? The 8 are all top-level researchers. Those types don't work alone. They have PhD students, they have post-docs, they..."I do agree there should have been more people and I think the village has too many white people. I get with the mine ok fine.
I will say that this would never have been handled by the VSPO and that the Alaska State Troopers would have swooped in. But its TV. (I was a little offended that the Trooper was looked down on and only for wild life stuff that bothered me ha ha )
For instance, only Fairbanks Police handle town stuff and I mean zip code 99701. Troopers handle it for everywhere else, then there is North Pole Police, they handle city limits as well.
Mod
I'm also a "go with the flow" person in terms of not trying to figure out who (or what) doneit. But I do like going down some of the rabbit holes of the show. I don't feel a need to go back and rewatch Season 1, I think it's enough to know that there are ties and both operate in the same world.
Speaking of ties to season 1, I found a super cool thing. I was trying to remember the name of a Ligotti story, and looking through TOC's found The Tsalal in the collection Noctuary. (In Season 1, Rustin's length and somewhat tiresome speech to the other cops was pretty much entirely cribbed from Ligotti's The Conspiracy Against the Human Race.)
I know this kind of information is readily available on internet sites dedicated to True Detective, but I avoid those as their infor dumps ruin the joys of discovery. At least until the show is finished.
What do people think of the Billie Eilish opening credits?
So when the delivery guy showed up at the research station, do you think the figure he saw wasn't a ghost as he said, but the missing scientist. So that takes a little bit of the mythical element away. The driver was so ready to accept that it was a ghost.
The sun rose in Utqiagvik Tuesday .
https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/top...
Also there is this thing with the moon right now : Its been really amazing.
https://www.gi.alaska.edu/alaska-scie...
Mod
It's really had to say with this show since they are showing us ghosts (Travis). At this point, I feel it could go either way.
I seem fixated on trying to make sense of the one-eyed polar bear, but I don't think we really have enough info just yet...
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Whitney, sounds like a cool Ligotti find. And now I think that even more so as I just realized how many publications he has!!! I had no idea he was THAT prolific...
I'm semi-conflicted about the Billie Eilish theme song---I actually love that song, but it feels a little main-streamish for True Detective. What do you all make of the music selection as a whole in the first two episodes? Definitely feels like a departure from the other seasons. (Songlist here: https://screenrant.com/true-detective...)
Whitney wrote: "Also, minus 30 is a hard pass from me."Wimp! Minus 30 isn't nearly as cold as it might be up there!
I forgot Jennifer was here: I was just going to invite her :)
Off to watch Episode 2 right now
Tanya Tagaq did a lot of music for the show, and I've always liked her. There's a delightful interview about her contributions on CBC (https://www.cbc.ca/arts/q/tanya-tagaq... for a synopsis, with links to the actual interview).I don't think the Eilish really does much as a theme song (not like the other ongoing series I'm watching atm, Slow Horses, which has a perfect opening by Mick Jagger).
Yes, I expect, the delivery guy did see Clark. I never watched seasons 2 & 3 (though I see my wife has just checked 3 out of the library) but a perfectly human killer, deranged by supernatural forces, seems to fit the general principle of the series.
I'm a bit confused at the episode ending. I thought there were 8 people at Tsalal, and Navarro is assuming Clark is still alive… but there are only six bodies. Did I miscount, or are we missing someone else? [I watched this one on my own, and will be watching it again with my wife, so I'll try to count better!]
Where did the crucifix come from? And why would she just throw it out the window? Obviously it has very negative memories, but in that case she wouldn't have kept it, so I'd be more than a bit curious about who put it in the truck.
I love Jodie Foster… but Danvers really is totally toxic! I guess she lost a son (who we only see being the one-eyed polar bear!) and now figures the world owes her everything.
The big reveal, of course, is when Pete runs down the funding for Tsalal (and Danvers says something to the effect of "thanks for nothing" and deliberately stitches him up with his wife). Details at the bottom of that songlist Marc posted.
Mod
There are only 6 bodies in the ice because one of the researchers woke up after getting his arm snapped off by the idiot poilice and is in the hospital (that "Seven" moment at the end of episode 1).
It may have been Clarke that the delivery guy saw, but there's no way Clarke is the killer.
The crucifix seemed to be connected to Navarro's mother. What happened to her, and why it's in the truck seem to be for us to find out later.
I get the idea Danvers lost her son and husband in a driving accident. Her and Leah over reacted to the drunk driver crashing into the pole in the first episode, and Danvers was very solicitous of Leah, who was on the verge of a panic attack, afterwards, There is also the brief flash of the road Danvers is crossing changing to pavement with broken glass, presumably the accident that killed her husband and son. I also got the idea from something that Leah said that Danver's is actually her step mother.
Danvers is toxic, but I think it's the opposite of your interpretation that the world owes her everything. I think she pushes people away because she's lost so much she doesn't want to get close to anyone.
Finally, I read the Ligotti story. It's about a "skeleton" town people are drawn to, with an inhabitant whose purpose is to bring about the annihilation of everything.
"There are only 6 bodies in the ice because one of the researchers woke up after getting his arm snapped off by the idiot poilice and is in the hospital (that "Seven" moment at the end of episode 1).""there's no way Clarke is the killer.""there's no way Clarke is the killer."Ah! I totally misunderstood that. I thought the guy in surgery was a cop, and I wasn't at all sure anyone had actually woken up ('coz, we see dead people...). I'm glad we've got THAT straight!
"there's no way Clarke is the killer."
Still clinging to the Ferris Bueller theory?
"I also got the idea from something that Leah said that Danver's is actually her step mother"
Maybe. I thought he looked Inuk, and Leah definitely is, so I'm assuming same Dad and probably same mother. I'll try to watch more closely next time.
"Finally, I read the Ligotti story. It's about a "skeleton" town people are drawn to, with an inhabitant hose purpose is to bring about the annihilation of everything."
Which couldn't possibly be significant :) I am somehow completely unfamiliar with Ligotti…
Mod
The movie was stuck on repeat during Buehler's big moment in the film, when he has the adoration of the entire crowd. The researchers were looking for the secret to immortality. I mean, pretty obvious, right?
Also, did you notice how pissed off and determined to stop the movie Danvers was? Was Bueller involved in the car accident as well? In the death of Annie K.? Did he poison the water? Give Travis leukemia? I say yes to all of these!
I am looking forward to the next episode. Tonight its minus 42 with ice fog . People are taking pictures in front of the temperature sign at the university. Only they are in bathing suits, etc. Its a whole thing here.
Jennifer wrote: "I am looking forward to the next episode. Tonight its minus 42 with ice fog . People are taking pictures in front of the temperature sign at the university. Only they are in bathing suits, etc. I..."
Clearly THEY haven't been watching True Detective and seen what happens to people who go outside, naked, at that temperature...
I love winter, and miss the cold and snowy Northern Ontario winters, but I draw the line at bathing suits.
Mod
Just outside of DC, we got about 5 inches of snow last week with some morning temps down around 17 degrees. Yesterday, it hit 80. :o
Is Ferris really innocent in all this?? We need to be on the lookout. I think I am going to rewatch the first episodes today.
I don't mind Danvers. Sure she is a bitch but you would be to I think in this police force.
I completely missed that Christopher Eccleston was the police chief until the sex scene. I like that they brought this complexity to their relationship. An ongoing affair for 20 years. who knew !
Derek wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "I am looking forward to the next episode. Tonight its minus 42 with ice fog . People are taking pictures in front of the temperature sign at the university. Only they are in bath..."
I almost asked my sister if we should finally go take ours last night.
Mod
I also think that's part of it. To be an effective female Chief of police in a macho little town, you have to be a bitch. But Danvers is also unpleasant in her personal life. Her comment that Navarro had changed where she kept her cans shows they used to be friends. Getting so angry at Leah exploring her heritage, and her extremely shitty behaviour to Darwin's grandmother, were definitely NOT part of being a policewoman.
Mod
One of the million podcasts I listen to had Joel Montgrand as a guest, he's the actor who play Qavvik (one of my favorite characters). He confirmed the main reason for filming in Iceland was indeed the temperature. Alaska is so cold the cameras wouldn't have functioned. The casting director who's a host of the podcast said that, in addition to tax breaks, Iceland also had the advantage for filming during COVID, as it's much easier to control people coming and going.
Also, which actor is your acquaintance?
Whitney wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "I said in another group that Alaska and Iceland are pretty close along the lines of longitude / latitude. Iceland has much more warmer temps than we do in the winter, thus making f..."Darwin's grandmother. She is a funny lady. She has good stories.
Whitney wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "I said in another group that Alaska and Iceland are pretty close along the lines of longitude / latitude. Iceland has much more warmer temps than we do in the winter, thus making f..."Yeah. Shit starts to break down for sure in the cold. We plug in our cars and leave them running while shopping. Like today. I turned my car on twice while inside the grocery store.
Mod
To recap the most important developments of episode 3, a veterinarian play a KEY ROLE in the case, and Jennifer's friend makes a brief reappearance in a very sad scene.
In general, I thought this episode spun its wheels a bit. There was little case development, mostly reiteration of what we already knew. There was more of a personal focus for this one, showing us some vulnerable moments from all the main characters.
Any thought or insights on this episode? I thought when they went to find Oliver Tagaq at the hunting camp that he was going to be the one who was hunting caribou in the first scene of the series, but the guy they initially met at the camp looked like it may have been him. Not sure if it even matters...
Jennifer, is there a prevalent "Alaska Take" on the series that you've heard?
Whitney wrote: "Getting so angry at Leah exploring her heritage, and her extremely shitty behaviour to Darwin's grandmother,"Yeah that was the bit that really got me angry at her. Denying her heritage just recalls entire centuries of colonial mistreatment.
Another question that's been bugging me is WHO ON EARTH wears cheek piercings in Winter above the Arctic circle? I get that I'm an old curmudgeon who doesn't understand piercings at all, but that's just an invitation to a really awful frostbite. It's bad enough having frostbit my fingertips and the tips of my ears as a kid, but those don't interfere with anything. I can't imagine!
Mod
But you kind of get the implication that Danvers is also trying to protect her, keep her from becoming a target. Danvers is glib and rough around the edges, but we get glimpses of a potentially more compassionate Danvers (making mac & cheese with the little girl, going to the memorial for the stillborn baby, etc.)
I think the biggest thing I walked away with from episode 3 was that Annie K was the one who wanted her relationships kept private and not Clarke. And I just know that orange has significance, but I don't know what just yet...
Jennifer, are the temps you're describing average for this time of year?
Mod
I think you're right that her motive involves being protective, right after she orders Leah to wash off the tribal markings, she goes and looks at the pictures of Annie's K's battered face. Which doesn't change the fact that she's going about things completely wrong. Racism is still racism, even if she has an 'excuse' for it, and her actions are much more likely to push Leah away and into the embrace of her protester friends, while closing paths of communication.
We did see the softer side of Danvers. Also of Navarro in Qavvik's ice fishing cabin as well as at the birth, and even of Hank in his fumbling attempt to connect with his son by giving him his old skates for Darwin.
That it was Annie K. who wanted the relationship kept secret is a scant bit of progress for the episode, but this did seem to be the touchy feely episode, I expect things are going to start moving faster in the second half. It was disappointing that all we got from the big scene with Lund was basically repeating what we already knew, but with a living corpse delivering it.
I'm waiting to see if the orange makes a reappearance as well. Also the one-eyed polar bear. I assume that Oliver and the hunting camp scene is also setting up something else to come.
Mod
Whitney wrote: "I forgot, we also get to see the Wheeler cast, the source of the rift between Danvers and Navarro. The version Danvers tells has Wheeler shooting himself, while the flashback has him still alive an..."Oh Danvers killed him for sure, I feel like that was reminiscent of something from season one.
Marc wrote: "Derek wrote: "Yeah that was the bit that really got me angry at her. Denying her heritage just recalls entire centuries of colonial mistreatment."But you kind of get the implication that Danvers ..."
Marc,
we have been due for a cold snap, This one is a doozy. Its been a week already and it will continue into this week as well. But yes in general January and February can be frigid.
Whitney wrote: "Marc wrote: "But you kind of get the implication that Danvers is also trying to protect her, keep her from becoming a target. Danvers is glib and rough around the edges, but we get glimpses of a po..."I was really bothered by Danvers and that whole scene and the previous episode as well. My little sister in Inupiat (different dads) my mom always made it more of a priority than her dad that she know her native family and culture. She has thought about getting the tattoos on her chin.
Doreen told me a story ( she is the woman in kitchen putting the tattoo on ) about her own tattoos and that one time she went to a church and the pastor looked at her and clucked is tongue and gave a sermon about the detriments of native culture.
I do feel this episode was slower for sure and agree that we saw a softer side of everyone. We learn how Eve's mother just disappeared. I think that is scary news. I also think it might have been her mother in that vision in the car when she tossed the cross out the window. I am liking how they are showing the culture and also there is that Alaskan property mentality on display when they went to the camp on the ice to find that guy. My step dad was tasered by the troopers on his own property and they told him it wasn't. He took them to court and won. People are weird about it and there are lots of no trespassing signs around.
I feel though they really would not have been able to drive vehicles to the camp. I feel like snow machines would be used in reality. There are not many roads....
Derek wrote: "Whitney wrote: "Getting so angry at Leah exploring her heritage, and her extremely shitty behaviour to Darwin's grandmother,"Yeah that was the bit that really got me angry at her. Denying her her..."
Lots of people have piercings here. I know its hard, but its true. :)
Whitney, I have not seen any Alaskan feed back on the show. I am not sure if any of my coworkers are watching it. I will see if my sister might be watching it.
Jennifer wrote: "She has thought about getting the tattoos on her chin."It has become a big issue in some Northern Canadian towns, and I think in BC. Lots of places refuse entry to people with facial tattoos -- ostensibly because for most non-native people they are gang & prison related. So people trying to regain their heritage are ending up having to go through Human Rights tribunals to go to a restaurant.
"I also think it might have been her mother in that vision in the car when she tossed the cross out the window."
It definitely was. I just couldn't figure out why she would have thrown it out the window. If she already knew it was in the truck, she must have had a reason to keep it; if she didn't know, I'd have thought she'd be waving it in people's faces asking who put it there!
Whitney wrote: "I forgot, we also get to see the Wheeler cast, the source of the rift between Danvers and Navarro... Any bets as to who shot him?"
My money's leaning towards both of them!
If Danvers did it why does she hate Navarro? I know she said she hates everybody, but she definitely hates Navarro a lot more than Pete, and apparently even more than Hank—and he deserves to be …. probably pitied more than hated. He's quite pathetic.
It would make sense it was Navarro—Danvers couldn't bring herself to charge Navarro (or perhaps even wasn't allowed to) and she hates that she crossed that line—but …. then why did Navarro say to Danvers something like "What we did with Wheeler… it was right".
Plus, though we can expect a fair bit of poetic license from the script, it's hard to swallow that either of them could have shot him from a distance, with their own weapon, and convinced a coroner it was suicide. They'd need to stage it. So, the mundane explanation is that he threatened to kill himself, and they just let him (or perhaps one of them prevented the other from stopping him). The alternative is that they staged his suicide. Neither actually pulled the trigger, but Navarro held him while Danvers made him pull it.
Now, geography (and maybe politics):
How is Ennis supposed to be under the authority of the Anchorage police? Ennis is 150 miles from the arctic circle, and given that there are some days when the sun never rises, it has to be 150 miles north of the circle. Fairbanks is about 150 miles South of the circle, and that's only half way to Anchorage. One source said that Ennis is supposed to be based on North Slope, but that looks to be another 100 miles or more north of the circle.
Mod
Derek, I agree it would not be the Anchorage Police, it would be the Alaska State Troopers in reality. I wonder why they are downplaying the role of the Troopers.
We have not talked about the last part of the episode. Where they watched the video on the cell phone. What do you think ? I am not sure. I need to watch it again.
Mod
I'm also in the Danvers camp. There was some suspected misdirection in the way Navarro manhandled the abuser and poured Bailey's into his gas tank.
Do you think we need many details? I'm thinking shoot in head, put gun in hand, turn in report and not sweat anyone giving enough of a shit about that guy to dig any deeper.
Mod
I felt like that was introducing something new in the ice caves we see in the video, so we don't know much about it. Kinda hoping it's not a secret underground facility, which would be a tad cheesy.
But, it was used in a b-movie based on the Dyatlov Pass incident, which I've seen sighted as one of the inspirations for the show. So, now I'm going with secret underground facility where the tongue was stored and the scientists were murdered. Probably with an entrance to the main facility, which would be where the shadowy figured disappeared to.
Mod
When Stumpy revives for one last outburst in episode 4, he’s going to say: Winter is Coming.
I don't think we need details of that murder. Maybe the whole Ferris Buehler thing was meant to distract us. Hard to know. I am just happy to see how this all plays out.
Mod
I am still curious why it created such a rift between them. Navarro doesn't seem the type to be too broken up about an extra judicial killing of an abusive POS.
definitely not. If Danvers had just shot him right there, Navarro would have said she saw him pull a gun.
I am rewatching episode 2 and Eve mentions the Willard thing, in a way like it was something done together and they both agreed but Danvers won't even talk about it.
Mod
With everyone having hit rock bottom, I assume that we will now get back to the case and a (hopefully) headlong rush to answers. I listened to the official HBO podcast, and comments there suggested this would be the case. Where our assorted characters end up after all this is anyone's guess.
I also wonder if the Willard case is going to have relevance to the current case, aside from Navarro seeing accusing spirits everywhere.
Any thoughts on the episode?
Boy Christmas sure did suck. I thought this was a powerful episode. I feel there by the end shit happened. Like the German dude? In that Parka? Where is Clark? Was it ever really Clark? and the German dude the whole time, maybe he laced the scientist's food with drugs? Sounds like he went of the rails?? But this horror manifests as mental illness, it is really and a truly mystical almost Shamanic thing that we have lost the ability to manage? Did we ever manage it ? Is it real. I think so.
I feel like they would have their faces covered more IRL. Due to weather. But I know its TV.
I thought it was a sad episode too. And that just makes us feel bad for everyone more. I know Danvers is a bitch, but I don't think she was always that way. Losing a child is the hardest thing to recover from. I don't think that people ever really do.
I felt bad for Hank. He knew better, but loneliness is hard, and here in Alaska, I think its harder. (his name is Hank right ? I mess up names in my head)
And Eves sister. No words.
Mod
I thought this was a powerful episode. I feel there by the end shit happened. Like the German dude? In that Parka? Where is Clark? Was it ever really Clark? and the G..."
Yeah, it was a rough episode, especially Navarro's sister.
As you say, there were a few more WTF things, like the German, Clarke, whatever Navarro is seeing in the boat. I do think that, to quote Gandolf, "The board is set, the pieces are moving. We come to it at last,"
Introducing anything more at this point would be a serious narrative mistake, IMHO. Time to head for the end game.
I felt bad for Hank, too. He's a jerk, but when he was waiting at the airport, I was still hoping she'd be on the plane (not expecting it, but hoping!)I thought it interesting that the voice calling to Navarro called her "Evangeline". Her sister called her Angie, Qavvik calls her Eve. Everybody else calls her Navarro. Probably only her mother called her Evangeline.
For Marc's satisfaction, there was a one-eyed polar bear. Or was there? Danvers drove off the road, but did she just imagine the bear? For the record, a typical polar bear life span is 20-25 years -- no doubt less for a bear with one eye! And that bear was apparently around before Holden died (but I'm not sure how long ago that was). In any case, it may make it highly unlikely that there was a real bear. otoh, the show plays somewhat loosely with reality anyway.
Apparently a lot of people are more annoyed than I was with the idea that somebody could walk off the ice into the ocean (in the dark!) and be found, identified, and next-of-kin notified, all within a matter of hours. I just thought "Well, that's not very believable, but convenient." Others (seemingly egged on by Nic Pizzolatto who doesn't seem very happy at not being involved this season) thought it was indicative of the general stupidity of the writers.
Derek wrote: "I felt bad for Hank, too. He's a jerk, but when he was waiting at the airport, I was still hoping she'd be on the plane (not expecting it, but hoping!)I thought it interesting that the voice call..."
It was a stretch. But it was convenient and maybe we will find out that someone reported a person on the ice. Hard to know. Its dark. But no one seems to mention the Moon. The Moon can be so bright that it's almost like daylight. For instance, in December 2023 at Christmas time, the moon was Full on the 27th.
Chaos Reading
Books mentioned in this topic
The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket and Related Tales (other topics)Pym (other topics)
The Tsalal (other topics)
Noctuary (other topics)
The Conspiracy Against the Human Race (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Ernest Hemingway (other topics)Marion Zimmer Bradley (other topics)
In brief, we get confirmation that ghost Travis is indeed the father of Rustin from season one, and the yellow sign from season one also makes a return. We find out that the murdered Annie K. was having a secret affair with one of the scientists, who was apparently a little off his rocker, and was not in the corpsicle. We learn a little more of what the scientists were studying, find out Danvers maybe wasn't always so horrible, and get a shout-out to a classic scene from the movie "Seven".
Marc wrote: "Did you all put any stock in the looping Beatles song (“Twist & Shout”), the copy of Blood Meridian, and the dead girl’s nickname (Annie K, which immediately made me think of Tolstoy but I haven’t read it so I don’t know if that’s significant)?
I also read somewhere else that the whiteboard writing (“We are all dead”) might be a lyric from another Beatles song.."
I didn't put much stock in the repeating "Twist and Shout", but now that you mention it, it captures how they found the frozen scientists (and also points to Ferris Bueller as a suspect). My thought on "Blood Meridian" is that it's a story of the white people slaughtering the natives, and it also has a deep, cosmic horror undercurrent. I hadn't thought about a possible Anna Karenina reference, nice catch! Now that we know about the affair, that may play out somehow.
I also don't know about a Beatles reference to the writing on the board, but the main question it raised for me was if it referred to the scientists, or to all of humanity.
Why is the kid Darwin? Reference to looking for the origins of life?