Faust Week 1 - Part 1, Dedication through Faust Study (ii)

[Tiffany]

Tristram wrote: "It's brilliant how Faust here points out how every age re-invents its own history in terms of its own values and beliefs."

Reading your comment is a bit spooky, as this is very, very true right now in China. I love studying history and visiting historical places and museums when I travel but in no other country I've been to have I experienced so much historical propaganda. For example, recently a period drama based on the Tang Dynasty got censored because women's clothing during the Tang Dynasty was more revealing than it is now. In order to stay on the air the TV show had re-edit all of the shots with the female characters to include only close-ups (from the shoulders up) or from a distance (i.e. the whole body).

I don't deny that this happens in other countries (the differences in American and British history during the late 1700s come to mind) a but it's really obvious here in China.

[Tristram]

Tiffany,

excuse my being a bit remiss with an answer but sometimes I lose track of whether I've already given an answer or not.

The Chinese example seems a good one to me, another one is being discussed in this group's thread on banning certain racist slurs from classic books. Taking this word out of novels by Twain, Conrad etc. is also an attempt at re-writing history to adapt it to our present-day spirit. It's quite another thing to show no tolerance at all to racist slurs in contemporary literature but to cleanse past writings from certain words - and thoughts - reminds me of "1984".

However, I don't even think that Faust is only referring to examples of re-writing history with a purpose but also to our tendency of just seeing history from our point of view. A 19th century historian, Leopold von Ranke, once wrote that every epoch is immediate to God - in other words only God could understand the past from its own perspective whereas those who were born later can never see it in its own right. It didn't put me off studying history, though ;-)

[Thomas]

The discussion above about history reminds me of something Kierkegaard said, that every age has its own Faust. I wonder what or who today's Faust looks like?

Apparently Kierkegaard had an avid interest in the Faust legend. It's been a while since I read Either/Or, but I remember he puts Faust in the same category with Don Giovanni. It's not hard to see the similarities there.

[Ashley]

Thomas wrote: "...though Mephisto has a role to play in God's plan, the outcome will still be determined by God."

I agree completely! Almost like Mephisto is necessary for God's plan for Faust.

[Ashley]

Genni wrote: "...So the prelude is to remind us that this is just a play so he can have a humorous devil? To provide some kind of distance, maybe to not take the play to seriously?"

I also wondered why Goethe included the play within a play (Though, I would argue there are a few plays in here...). It does provide more distance than I'm used to in something with such strong moralistic overtones. Why would Goethe create this distance? Why shouldn't we take him seriously, particularly when he devoted so much of his life to this piece?

[Ashley]

Thank you all for your enlightening comments about Mephisto's dog disguise. He wears a few other disguises in these sections as well (line 1322 as a student, and line 1850 he wears Faust's robe). Does anyone see any significance in these disguises beyond jester-like trickery?

[Lily]

Thomas wrote: "The discussion above about history reminds me of something Kierkegaard said, that every age has its own Faust. I wonder what or who today's Faust looks like? ..."

Thomas -- I haven't had a chance to concentrate on Faust until this week and only yesterday I printed out the 22 pages of comments (edited for extraneous stuff, but 12 pt type) on this section alone, without getting through them yet, so it is perhaps dangerous to respond here, but I had a similar (well, at least a little bit?) question -- what author today would dare begin a play with three (Christian?) angels conversing? How many high school students would know their Biblical roles? (Or in any other holy text.) My thoughts did go to Tony Kushner's Angels in America, but I would have to reread to see if parallels are relevant.

As to "today's Faust", I needs must ask what did Kierkegaard mean? The high-brow play or novel or ... that looked at an educated man's (woman's?) temptations? Or a particular individual? (From recognizable names, Jimmy Carter or Donald Trump or Madonna or ....) Or, in today's world, might "Faust" be that emigre fleeing persecution or that frustrated middle aged minority engineer or manager or academician caught in a stifling or corrupted organization? What is the "character of Faust" in the sense Kierkegaard is referring to him?

As high flung as Goethe's language is, at this point the play is coming across to me as being, as some levels at least, an "Everyman's story" -- not "our Everyman," more the Chaucer "everyman." That point in life where no matter how great or how lowly, or how realized or how thwarted, one's aims and ambitions, a sense exists of the possibility of so much more that should have, could have been done or acquired or ....

(Three links for those who might be interested in following up on archangels Raphael, Gabriel, and Michael: (view spoiler)[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raphael...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael...
(hide spoiler)]. I see no particular obvious evidence that Goethe used these angels in any except a general way.)

[Thomas]

Lily wrote: "As to "today's Faust", I needs must ask what did Kierkegaard mean? The high-brow play or novel or ... that looked at an educated man's (woman's?) temptations? Or a particular individual? (From recognizable names, Jimmy Carter or Donald Trump or Madonna or ....)
."

Apparently for Kierkegaard the issue wasn't temptation but doubt and despair. Faust gives up his quest for knowledge out of doubt that absolute understanding of the universe is possible. Despairing of this, he takes up the pursuit of sensuality and immediacy. It is an intentional choice rather than a moment of weakness. (It also has a way of coming around again, with a "leap of faith" after the life of immediacy leads to yet further despair.)

So I suppose a modern Faust (in this sense, anyway) would have to be someone who gives up on his or her ideals and instead pursues some kind of worldly success or pleasure. No celebrity figures come to mind, but a lot of ordinary people do. Maybe there are a few on that Ashley Madison list...

[Chris]

The Ashley Madison list....HA! Very funny.

[Lily]

Thomas wrote: "...So I suppose a modern Faust (in this sense, anyway) would have to be someone who gives up on his or her ideals and instead pursues some kind of worldly success or pleasure...."

Hmm..m. Does anything here qualify? I don't know these well enough to judge:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_b...

I feel as if I have encountered a book description in the past week that would qualify as exploring that loss of idealism and hope and "settling" for life day-by-day. But, can't reconstruct, at least this afternoon -- feels as if just lost to the ether.

[Jeremy C. Brown]

Thomas wrote: "Faust gives up his quest for knowledge out of doubt that absolute understanding of the universe is possible. Despairing of this, he takes up the pursuit of sensuality and immediacy. It is an intentional choice rather than a moment of weakness. "

Was this really an "intentional choice" rather than a moment of weakness? Maybe it's just the way the audio version is being read and I'm getting a feeling or vibe that's not meant by the author, but I thought it was weakness? Would you mind elaborating on this point? Thanks!

[Lily]

Jeremy C. wrote: "Thomas wrote: "Faust gives up his quest for knowledge out of doubt that absolute understanding of the universe is possible. Despairing of this, he takes up the pursuit of sensuality and immediacy. ..."

Jeremy -- I am bouncing between a couple of translations and a third narration. My own sense is that I am encountering Goethe attempting to describe a very, very human Faust who wavers and moves back and forth between conscious, knowledgeable decision and the very human condition/affliction of sometimes being pulled hither and yon by circumstances, aloneness, encounters, mood, and world-weariness. Like my own scripture reading, to which I do find myself comparing Goethe's poem/play, all this is via English translations!?

[Lily]

@26Genni wrote: "I also found the Prelude in the theater humorous. I also wondered what the purpose of the prelude was? ..."

I'm sorry to be trailing so in reading this. I am enjoying it greatly, especially the language and the twists of insight into/observation of the human psyche.

Genni -- I too, enjoyed the description of the theater goers. I laughed at your question as to whether we should be offended. Hadn't thought of it myself, but agree with your suggestion that the presentation as a play creates a certain distance between the reader and the action, almost the way Shakespeare's characters sometimes use a play-within-the-play to safely convey what might not be received if delivered directly.

For contrast, here is Walter Arndt's (Dartmouth College, Norton Edition) translation of the passage about the theater goers you quote:

Lines 111 -133
"Just look for whom you will have striven!
This one may be by boredom driven,
That one is comatose from overfeeding,
And what is most reluctantly forgiven,
A lot arrive here fresh from journal-reading.
Mere curiosity will spur their paces,
They come with scattered wits as for a masquerade,
The ladies show their get-ups and their faces,
Each plays an extra, though unpaid.
Why daydream on your poet's eminence?
Why should a full house gladden you?
Look closely at your patrons, do!
One half is cold, the other dense.
One, when the show ends, looks to cards and booze,
Another to a wild night with a trollop;
Would you spur Pegasus to gallop
For this, poor fools, and plague the Muse?
I tell you, just give more, and ever, ever more,
And you will never stray off-target.
Endeavor to confuse your human market,
To sate it truly is a chore --
What's come upon you? Ecstasy or ache?"

Could as well be said by a director before a modern pop concert?

Excerpt from Genni @26: (view spoiler)[

"The director also seemed a bit cynical:

'Do not forget for whom you write!
They come when they are bored at night,
Or gorged on roasts and relish, spice and capers,
And - this is the most wretched plight -
Some come right after having read the papers.
They come to us distracted, as to a masquerade,
Propelled by nothing more than curiosity,
Their dresses and their jewels, the ladies would parade,
And act without salary.'"
(hide spoiler)]

This line particularly caught my ear: "Or gorged on roasts and relish, spice and capers,..."

I happen to "like" both these translations and find the two together compliment and enhance each other. Each leads me to read the other slightly differently and more richly.

[Lily]

@35Wendel wrote: "I can think of three reasons why Meph. chooses the poodle as his disguise: one: it’s a black, two: it has a lot of hair (smelly sometimes), three: it’s clever. However Goethe’s poodle may not be the sorry creature we see in dog shows. He may instead have thought of a traditional shepherd-poodle..."

I liked the shepherd-poodles picture. Both they and the presentation of Mephistopheles as a black dog reminded me of Cerberus, guardian of the gates of Hades. Cerberus may be three-headed (more or less), but he is a dog, it is the Underworld he guards, and for any academician seeking eternity for self, or more likely, his/her work, as for which Goethe himself was probably striving (along with Dante, Shakespeare, Cervantes, Milton, and a few others we could name), somehow a creature guarding entry seemed an appropriately malevolent beast and ambivalent symbol.

(In modern literature, such as Caryl Churchill's plays, this sort of behavior is referred to as "shape-shifting." Is that terminology also used for earlier classical literature such as "Faust"?)

[Thomas]

Jeremy C. wrote: "Was this really an "intentional choice" rather than a moment of weakness? Maybe it's just the way the audio version is being read and I'm getting a feeling or vibe that's not meant by the author, but I thought it was weakness? Would you mind elaborating on this point? Thanks! "

I guess there are two things that lead me to believe that it's not weakness. The first is Faust's "curse." In the second Study scene (lines 1530-1865) Faust wakes up in a serious funk. Part of this must be the influence of Mephistopheles and the Spirits that afflict him in his sleep, but the mood in which he awakes is one of depression, and he gradually becomes frantic and furious. He winds up cursing patience, hope, and faith. It's almost as if he wakes up with bipolar disorder. In any case it doesn't look to me like temptation. It's something else.

The second thing is what Faust wants. He doesn't want what I would have expected -- knowledge or wisdom. He wants passion, the rollercoaster of life:

Let's hurl ourselves in time's on-rushing tide,
Occurrence's on-rolling stride!
So may then pleasure and distress,
Failure and success,
Follow each other as they please;
Man's active only when he's never at ease....

Frenzy I choose, most agonizing lust,
Enamored enmity, restorative disgust...


He doesn't slip into temptation exactly. He chooses passion over the quiet and disciplined life of a scholar.

That's the way I see it, for the moment anyway. I am finding this a difficult play both to read and interpret, so I could probably be persuaded otherwise.

[Clarissa]

Tiffany wrote: "Also, something that I'd like to consider, is 'Wie nennst du dich?' the standard/common phrase for asking for someone's name? (I don't know enough about German or Faust to answer my own question.) And if it is common, then wouldn't the more colloquial version of English (while less accurate in word-to-word translation) be better as it matches the feeling of the language?"

Sorry I am so late to the discussion, but I am enjoying reading all the comments. If you haven't got an answer yet, Tiffany, in current German, you more or less ask 'how are you called?'
I think as you discussed yourself the role and decisions of translators are very difficult, from the translations of Faust I've glanced over they seem to choose rhyme and rhythm over literal meaning.