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p.d.r.lindsay - writer and tutor
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P.D.R.
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Jan 16, 2014 07:55PM
I hate being pushy but it is hard to persuade readers to read your books if you haven't pushed a little.
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I'd like to ask a question. Is it fair to give a book one star if you hated it?What if it is a well written book with a good story but you just hate vampires. Does that make it a one star book?
How do readers rate for stars?
If you hate vampires, why would you read a book with vampires?
Ah! But supposing you are asked to reveiw it. Or you are given it?Happens to me a lot with doing reviews for zines and websites and mags! NO matter that I say what I prefer to review I still get stuff I don't usually read.
Hello Kathleen,yes, I am about to start a campaign to ask Goodreads if they will start a two tier review system. One set of stars for personal POV and another set of stars for the writing quality of the book.
I think it would end this angry writers' campaign about the reviews they got if one set of stars said my personal opinion but the second set rated the writing qualities. And for readers who feel they couldn't comment on writer's qualities it would be okay just to give their POV and be noted as that.
At the moment readers are taking the low star rate review to means the book and not the reader's personal opinion. That is unfair to the writers.
Hmm. you've got me thinking about this a bit more carefully now. I don't have the skill-set to have people send me stuff for review purposes, so that's not something I would normally consider. So, we have 2 categories of "review". I would expect the vast majority of the reviews on GR are the kind I do... I read a book, and allocate stars/write a comment based on my feelings about it. Many of these reviews are from people far better informed about things like writing style, etc. than I am. I'm really not a vary critical reader.
Having said that, I've just been back and read some of my one and 2 star reviews, and I've usually been able to pick out some specific things I didn't like relating to the writing or plot. Some of those were books I hadn't personally chosen (so, fitting the idea that sometimes you can't choose not to read a book with vampires), and for those I didn't like, I 2-starred and then (in most cases) explained in the review section what I didn't like.
The other category of review would be the one where the reviewer has been sent the book for review purposes. In these cases I would expect this to be stated in the first line of the review, so that I would know that the book was not necessarily the type of thing that reviewer would have chosen themselves. I'd also hope for some more professional (for want of a better word) insights about the craft of writing; perhaps objective is the word I want here.
So, for category 1 I think it's fine to say "I was really enjoying this until it turned out the chick was actually a vampire! gah! way to ruin a good book!" whereas for category 2 you probably should go more along the lines "Although the story involves vampires which is not really my thing, the characters were interesting and well developed..." (or whatever).
I'm grateful that Goodreads has the flexibility to allow all types of reviews. For a long time I felt too intimidated to write anything much in the way of a review, cos what do I know? I glad I got over that.
Hello Darkpool,yes, it is tricky this review business. And scary because reviews do affect buyers.
Writer pals who monitor their sales more closely than I do note a fall off in sales whenever they receive poor - 3 star or fewer - reviews.
I still think, for fairness to writers, we need a two tier system.
I agree largely with what Darkpool has said. I offer a star rating based on MY enjoyment of the read, not to indicate literary merit. However, I think comment is of greater importance when awarding a low/lower star rating than others may be awarding.I don't give a star rating if I don't finish a book, but I do make a comment as to why - for MY benefit so I know why it was a DNF for ME - nobody else. This was the very reason why an author and her friends saw fit to attack me because my comment clearly stated the writing in the book was of an extremely poor standard with punctuation & basic grammatical errors, not to mention some fairly phonetic spelling, and this was the reason for not finishing the book.
Now if that makes writers angry, I don't see tiered stars are going to make them happy.
Something that makes this reader angry though, is the authors who use the review/star rating system to over inflate their book, and invariably have their friends support that with high star rating also. I have seen books where the first batch of reviews/ratings are 4/5 stars, and are followed by a large run of lower ratings. When looking at those high initial high ratings lo and behold the reviewers mostly appear on the authors 'friends' page!! IMHO that is cheating.
I read books for my pleasure not as a professional reviewer/critic, and I expect any book I pick up to read should have already been through the hands of at least a betareader, but preferably a proofreader and/or editor. I have no desire to fit any of those roles for authors, just to read to enjoy, I would suggest most readers fit this descriptor.
Seriously?? Three stars isn't even a negative rating!
Yes, Darkpool. It seems, according to all the serious research done, that readers pick the 4 and 5 star reviews books first to buy.AND
yes, writer friends can actually track sales going down after 3,2,or 1 star reviews.
Ella's Gran, can we abbreviate you to EG? My poor arthritic hands are complaining at this time of night.Yes, the indie writers who do not use a copy editor or designer for their books tend to be the newbies who scream loudest when grammar and basic writng errors are pointed out.
And yes, having all your pals produce 5 star reviews does seem a bit off
BUT
readers only buy books with lots of 4 and 5 star reviews. Sometimes it is tempting to have a couple of pals, who do genuinely like your book, to post a good review.
I think the Angry Writers who are trying to get Goodreads reviews censored might be a lot less stroppy if there were a 2 tier review system and everyone knew that tier one was personal opinion only.
Surely in even in a 2 tier system the book that needs a proofreader/editor is still going to get a bad rating?
Alas, yes. But so it should. And if that rating is in the 2nd tier stating that the book needed a copy editor to catch the many errors it is about the writing and not the writer!Mind you, if the book is that bad then the writer won't be a pro writer and will probably have a tantrum anyway whatever you put.
There is a strange and lunatic fringe which like to call themsleves writers and they know no reason or commonsense or anything less than the acknowledgement that they are geniuses. As a writing tutor I have met several of them in my classes and they will take offence whatever you say/write.
Well good luck with your campaign. It's a better idea than some of the others (mostly wanting to restrict how authors can use the site) I've heard.
Yes, you may abbreviate me to EG or you could even use my name - Lesley. I agree totally with Darkpool's comment that the two tier idea you put forward is better, although still has flaws, than 'restriction' - of authors or censorship of readers'.
Oh for that perfect world ...
Thank you all for thinking and commenting about this. I hate censorship, but I hate seeing a review which is meant to be about a book - I mean that's what a book review is - but the reviewer actually makes a personal attack on the writer or is just plain mean and spiteful. Comments like ' I think this writer is stupid to...' Or ' In my opinion this writer is just copying NAME of TV programme...' are not helpful for other readers.
AS I said before readers buying books, particularly on line, go for books with 4 and 5 star reviews. Damning a book, not because it is badly written, but because you don't like the ending or find it too highbrow for what you wanted to read, is truly damaging to the author's sales!
Goodreads is about readers and books, readers finding good books to read and that means decent book reviews, thoughtful reviews about the book!
A two tier system might just prevent author outrage. And readers unsure of what writing skills make a good read need only write a personal review.
Sadly, the prompt for the review box is "What did you think?",(not "please review the book") so if a reader thinks that the author is an idiot, or that the ending sucked, or that there were too many vampires, then they are pretty much being encouraged to write that. As a reader, I want honest reviews. I don't want to read reviews that say "well, the cover was pretty" because that was the only nice thing the reviewer could come up with to say about the book.
I don't think a single 3 star rating would put me off a book if there were other reviews that had higher ratings. A whole swag of 3-star ratings... and I'd start to think maybe there are better things to read out there.
And if an author thinks a 3 star rating is bad for sales, I can't imagine what they think an online hissy fit is going to do to fix the problem.
This GR censorship is Amazon prompted I think. Amazon can see that poor reviews affect sales, as can any Amazon author who tracks their sales.This bring me to another question. And I agree, Darkpool, that asking what we think is not a good idea for a review, inspiring too many personal comments. I have not seen the website which shames reviewers nor have I seen the reviews. There is that neurotic writers' fringe, but I do wonder why personal comments about a writer are considered a book review.
So what is a book review? What do you GR readers consider a useful-for-you book review should be?
Ah! Short sweet and to the point!I like that too.
Anyone in the Oamaru area on March 20th do drop in to our Indie Writers, Tizzie launch in the library at 6pm.I've organised a party!
Heads up writers - Jim Azevedo, Marketing Director, from Smashwords is atending the RW of NZ August conference -14th - 17th.Marvellous opportunity.
Writers alert.If you can go even for the one day writing sessions it really is worth it.Readers get a lot out of it too especially if they sign up for the social events where they can chat to their favourite authors.
RWNZ
You're invited to the Waipuna Hotel and Conference Centre in Auckland between the 14-17 August for the 21st Romance Writers' of New Zealand conference.
We have an amazing line-up of international and national speakers coming to Auckland.
We have three 'streams' of topics to choose from; craft, self-pub/hybrid, and genre. There's a whole lot of everything covered - the trick will be deciding what workshops you can't live without!
This is the premier event for New Zealand writers. You won't want to miss it.
Go to www.romancewriters.co.nz to register for the best conference of your life!
Come on Readers, help me. I hate the Facebook regs about grabbing anything I post as their property so I don't use it.Do you keen readers go to author FB pages and enjoy them?
Where else do you go to find out about the writer of the book you are reading?
How do you find out about books you might like to read?
I'd hate to start a FB page because all other writers tell me I should only to find readers don't use FB to find out about books and authors.
Time is so precious for me and I don't want to waste a second of what I've got.
The only author I have anything to do with on Facebook is Sharon Kay Penman. She has a very loyal following, and she posts daily & is very interactive with her FB "friends", and also in several groups that are about her books. I mostly just lurk there. Of course, she was already a well established author with a large readership before facebook, and although I suppose the FB page is part of her marketing strategy, it really feels as if she's there because she enjoys it rather than just as a way to sell more books. Hell, we're all going to buy her books anyhow! (Or borrow them from the library at least!)
Don't do it unless you enjoy it! From speaking to other author pals (mostly kids' authors admittedly), turning 'likes' into sales is v difficult. I think it's more about connecting with people who already enjoy your work and genre, and in the lonely life of a writer that is always worth doing - extra sales are just a bonus.
Pages are less effective on FB these days as they monetise everything. Many authors I have spoken to have found less than 10% of people who have "liked" their page ever see their FB content. FB demands you pay to boost your posts for visibility. G+ seems to be where everyone is moving to now.
Thank you all! Most helpful and thought provoking comments. I can sigh with relief and avoid FB then.Seems the best bet to make contacts is by improving my blogging.
Google+ has been mentioned. I hate being pushy and some of the methods of promotion I'm learning about seem downright immoral to me. I'd just like to have my books visible and well reviewed so that readers can see and choose for themselves.
Anyone got a magic wand to wave and turn me into a sweet little old lady with charisma and universal appeal? :)
I am desolute and in despair. No magic wands? Alas.Will just have to work hard and try to find a load of readers before the next novel launch who will read and review for me, posting their reviews on launch day at all the vital sites - like Goodreads!
Beta readers are so hard to find.
Now that was mind blowing! He's right and it won't ever get done.Still I will plug on with linking up with more indie writers' groups like our Writer's Choice and boosting their work and books as they boost ours.
Slowly the ripples creep out with information about us and our books.
Readers have a great choice these days. It's just a matter of picking one book from millions and I love Indie books because so often they are not what the trad pubs publish. They are often quirky, unusual and don't fit the genre boxes trad pubs like.
Like WOOL!
I find you dedicated readers a great help when I have author questions.Now the ripples are spreading about Writer's Choice and our books we are often asked for a bio. We also have several author pages in preparation for different sites.
Do you prefer to read the same author page stuff each time or would you prefer it to be different? For example on one page I could have the basics plus a chatty bit about my travels and on another author page I could have basics plus chat about farming life, or basics and writing life and so on.
What do you think? Which would you prefer to read?
Right, thank you, Kathleen, one vote for different.It's hard to get info from my colleagues and when I do chase up them up and get their pieces they are either so hilarious no one would believe them or so dull no one would read them.
Hard to sound interesting yet normal.
Oh, and do you chose books from viewing book video trailers at Youtube? I have yet to find someone who does but I have not asked the younger generations.
P.d.r. wrote: "Right, thank you, Kathleen, one vote for different.It's hard to get info from my colleagues and when I do chase up them up and get their pieces they are either so hilarious no one would believe t..."
Two votes for different p.d.r. I think everyone has interesting bits from their lives to tell, even those with perceived dull lives. A lot depends on how you tell it I guess.
I have never thought to look at Youtube for book videos! Bit old I guess (chuckle)
That's how I feel - why pictures about words?but I am being nagged by younger with-it PR people to do book trailers!They assure me they sell books to the younger generations and the techie readers!
Thank you for the second vote, Lesley. I have now got an extract from GJ re dancing the Argentinian tango. I shall use it just to 'learn' him.By the way how to you all feel about this - well I call it cyber bullying - where a writer gets a load of one star, weird comment, so-called reviews becaus they have disagreed with a poster. There seems to be a little group here going round doing this.
Here's an example I recieved for daring to disagree with this person's pals:
'My review based solely on the sample: not literary enough.' And she put one star.
Now the best PR promo sites taking Indie books weed out the dross by asking for a book to have 10 or 20 or 30 4 and 5 star reviews plus an overall star rating of 3.50 or 3.75. This is well known so by dumping a load of one star reviews which pull down the star rating means a writer cannot get access to the best PR sites.
These PR sites sell because they deliver email lists to a large group of readers and they target your book to readers. They really do make sales.
I have made formal protests about this bullying. There was a nasty example in the Authors' group the other week. Amazon is notorious for it happening. Shame it's now happening here and really rotten for writers. But it's bad for readers too who are being denied a fair chance to choose.
Well, I suppose bullies crawl out everywhere. Your poor daughter, left trying to moderate that sort of stuff. She has my sympathy.The one star business stinks.
You may already know about this p.d.r., but in case you don't -The Guardian is set to become the first national newspaper to champion self-publishing on a regular basis with the launch of a new monthly prize that aims to find the best DIY novels.
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014...
Yes, I saw it and cheered.Alas you have to be a UK resident to apply.
Perhaps I should go for one of those UK writers' residencies and try then!!!!
Which paper can we persuade to do this in NZ? I reckon the ODT might be game. I'll see.
Don't forget the Romance Writers conference coming up, well worth it for anyone into writing. They do the best conference and have some great speakers for the Friday writing sessions.
Just to share some exciting news for me in New Zealand and thus for Writer's Choice.Yesterday I received an email from a book distributor. These are the people who take books from publishers and get them into libraries, shops and schools. It is very difficult for Independent writers to get their books accepted. Self published = rubbish you know!
I was floating all day as the distributor wanted full details of all our books. Still it's orders that count so I just hoped.
Today I had our frst order for 6 books! They want to order ebooks as well, but later. It is such a great feeling as this will help us sell books in NZ but more importantly get new readers to enjoy our very different books.
Our Writer's Choice 2nd birthday comes up in October and I must have a real freebooks all day, virtual champagne popping party. We've published two books this year and 'Unforgivable' is selling steadily. Tizzie is long listed in a UK novel comp and GJ's novel has just been beaten out of winning in the Amazon novel contest. When I am feeling vengeful I want to post all that information to those agents who said 'Love to take you on but we can't sell your book because...'
Ah thank you, you kind people. Yes, it is great as it's Wheelers! They don't take Indie books! You can apply and be firmly told off. They have to come to you. Being part of a writers' co-op makes us an Indie publisher I think, in their minds. I dunno!And to add to my joy there was another order, for Tizzie this time. Going into libraries I believe.
This is pure cheek.My favourite book email list place has a comp for a new Kindle if you follow me. Ther's a cash prize for me too!
Dear p.d.r.,
We now have 2 qualifying contenders for the 3 cash prizes on offer in our author following competition, and with a sudden meteoric rise, Susan Laqueur has just taken top position on the leader board. But everything could change in the next 8 days!
Whether or not you're motivated by winning one of the 3 cash prizes, inviting more readers to sign up and support your entry is good for everyone. More readers will lead to more authors, who will add more books, which will attract more readers and so on.....
The link to your author profile, which you'll need to share is http://www.readersintheknow.com/autho... but of course they will need to click Join Us in the top right and register in order to see the orange follow button.
Please note that the competition page showing the current leader board as well as all the details for the competition is only accessible to authors, publishers and agents and will therefore result in an error message if clicked on by a reader, so please don't share that link.
Best regards,
Simon Denman, Founder.
Readers in the Know
Yep, but I actually do like the site and Simon does fit books to readers far more than most other sites. His will be around for a long time, I believe and his treatment of authors is really good as well as his regard for readers.
I'm working at it, John. The PR is time consuming as I am still learning my way around the sites and how to promote without using Twitter, (I hate tweets all the time yelling BUY my book!) Facebook (Remember the Roast Busters and how long it took FB to do anything?!)and money.The other problem is reviews. So many of the sites want anything from $5 per book to $1,200 a book to promote your book which I cannot afford (Oh for a job!) but they also want at least 5 5star reviews and an overall rating of 4.5 on Amazon.
Many of the best sites won't touch your books unless you have 20 or 25 5 star reviews and an overall rating of 4.3/4/5 on Amazon.
Sigh! I am getting used to the systems though and will be much faster at PR soon.
It's on my list but I haven'r reached there yet. Looks good though. Thank you, John.I'll return the favour for you.
