01-09 Feb.: Inferno I-VII

[ReemK10 (Paper Pills)]

"This is one of the few portraits Michelangelo ever painted. Who is it? Biagio da Cesena, the papal master of ceremonies. He is the devil Minos here in the Last Judgment picture on the Sistine Chapel wall.

Minos stood at the Gates of Hell just as St. Peter stood at the other ones. He examined the curriculum of the damned and decided where to send them—to which department.

Why did Michelangelo piant Biagio as a devil?
Biagio told Pope Julius within Michelangelo’s hearing that the big painting, with all its nudes, would be more fitting for a tavern wall than a chapel. In revenge Michelangelo put Biagio’s face on Minos."

lol- that's funny.

The Vatican has put the Sistine Chapel online:

http://www.vatican.va/various/cappell...

[Katie]

Yann wrote: "Katie wrote: "Sorry, I probably wasn't clear about what I was trying to say: Averroes definitely didn't think that philosophy and theology were incompatible, but he lived during a time when religio..."

Great, thank you for that, Yann!

[Amelia]

This has been a wonderful first week of reading and posts.

What I think is interesting about the readings so far is how the emotions of Dante the character are so varied from that of Dante the poet. Hollander refers to the continuing debate as to where we readers locate ourselves as witnesses to such scenes. A perfect example of this is in Canto V as Dante the character is brought to tears of pity for Francesca and Paolo yet the poet has assigned them forever to this level of Hell. Hollander notes the use of the words “love” and “pity” throughout this Canto and suggests “…that it does not mean that they must function in opposition to one another; they may be versions of the same emotion.”

[Kalliope]

ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "

".."

Daring...!!

[ReemK10 (Paper Pills)]

Richard wrote: "From Canto V as translated by Pinsky, where Dante describes the multitude of the Lustful:
As winter starlings riding on their wings,
Form crowded flocks, so spirits dip and veer
Foundering in the w..."

The similes associating the lustful with birds made me laugh at the bird motif I have in my home with various bird tchotchkes spread around here and there. lol

I found something interesting about the starlings, doves and cranes that Dante mentions in Canto 5. I'll only share this part, so no spoilers.

Dante and the winged motif:

"In Inferno V Dante describes lustful sinners in terms of three bird similes that parody and invert the recurring motif of the sacred poet as a winged creature who flies upward toward a goal. In the first simile he compares an unruly mob of the damned, who are driven by the winds of passion “now here, then there, and up and down,” to a flock of starlings that flies in a random, erratic pattern (43). In contrast to Dante alighting upward to Paradise on the wings of divine eros, the starlings’ impulsive ascending and descending lack a particular end or goal. The flight pattern of these birds, which were noted in the Middle Ages for “their capacity for imitating speech,” depicts the blusterous, mindless nature of lust.4 The poet also compares a more regal and dignified number of the lustful to “cranes in flight, chanting their lays, / stretching an endless line in their formation” (46-47). Dante indirectly links these birds that are “cantando lor lai,” a literary genre made popular by Marie de France, to secular poets. Unlike the mob-like, screeching starlings, the military formation of the cranes in flight illustrates the rigorous, disciplined use of speech associated with the art of poetry.5 Dante’s third simile comparing Paolo and Francesca to two doves that “float downward through the air” on “wings” that are “poised and motionless” sets the stage for the entrance of two legendary lovers who were seduced by a book (83-84).6 Her subsequent description of love, “Amor, ch’al cor gentil ratto s’apprende” (100: “Love, that kindles quick in the gentle heart”) and her repetition of the word “Amor” in lines 103 and 106 imitates the style of the stilnovisti poets that included Guido Guinizelli and perhaps Dante in his youth.7 In contrast to Dante the poet, Francesca uses language intentionally to mislead others. She is guilty of either lying or self-deception when she claims that Paolo first kissed her, reversing the roles of the notorious lovers in Lancelot du Lac.8 Although Dante the Pilgrim feels pity for Francesca, he matures throughout the Inferno by coming to terms with the divine justice of the punishments he witnesses there. Like a dove descending into a flightless prison, Francesca endures a justified fate that is the opposite of the poet’s famous flight to Paradise."


"Throughout the Commedia the motif of a winged creature ascending upward toward a goal serves as Dante’s principal means of self-presentation on his quest for literary fame.1 He associates his guide Virgil as well as other famous writers of epic with the eagle—a royal bird known in the Middle Ages and Renaissance for its ability to soar to great heights. Winged creatures function as Dante the poet’s signature: they provide him with suitable travel metaphors for his descent into the Inferno followed by his ascent up Mount Purgatory toward the beatific vision in Paradise. In the Inferno winged creatures that only descend, are relatively static, or use their mouths for perverse rather than salvific ends act as parodic inversions of Dante’s celestial flight and song as a poet. He aligns liars, deceivers, and defrauders with fowl that plummet or with winged monsters that become entrapped so they cannot fly."

[ReemK10 (Paper Pills)]

My Hollander edition has a note that says:" The first vast group of the "ordinary" lovers is compared to a flock of starlings, with their ragged, darting, sky-covering flight on a winter's day. (T.S. Eliot's typist and house agent's clerk in The Waste Land vv.222-248, would eventually be assigned here, one imagines.)

The typist home at teatime, clears her breakfast, lights

Her stove, and lays out food in tins.

Out of the window perilously spread

Her drying combinations touched by the sun�s last rays,

On the divan are piled (at night her bed)

Stockings, slippers, camisoles, and stays.

I Tiresias, old man with wrinkled dugs

Perceived the scene, and foretold the rest�

I too awaited the unexpected guest.

He, the young man carbuncular, arrives,

A small house agent�s clerk, with one bold stare,

One of the low on whom assurance sits

As a silk hat on a Bradford millionaire.

http://www.stfrancis.edu/content/en/s...

[Book Portrait]

So many wonderful posts already. I have to catch up!

I'm using two French translations (GF and the 1862 Hachette edition with the Gustave Doré illustrations) as well as Mark Musa's plus the Italian text online.

Dante just found himself lost in a dark wood:

Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita
mi ritrovai per una selva oscura,
ché la diritta via era smarrita.


Gustave Doré - La forêt (chant I vers 1)

[Yann]

Book Portrait wrote: "So many wonderful posts already. I have to catch up!

I'm using two French translations (GF and the 1862 Hachette edition with the Gustave Doré illustrations) as well as Mark Musa's plus the Itali..."

Wow. The Gustave Doré edition is beautifull. Thanks BP!

[Book Portrait]

Yann wrote: "Wow. The Gustave Doré edition is beautifull. Thanks BP!"

I quite like it too. :) I even prefer it to the GF edition as it has the original Toscan text as well.

The BnF also has Le Purgatoire illustrated by Doré (http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6...) but I can't seem to find Le Paradis. >:(

They have lots of different editions & translations. This one is a series of 71 XV-century miniatures:


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6...

And this 1925 edition has illustrations by Yan Dargent:


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6...

There are others but Gustave rules them alls! :)


I'd love to find the original English edition with the William Blake's illustrations but I don't know if the British Library has put its books online...

[Bjorn]

^^ Nice.

At the other end of the spectrum, I just stumbled across this:

I’ve been reading Dante’s Inferno on my subway ride to work

[Kalliope]

Book Portrait wrote: "Yann wrote: "Wow. The Gustave Doré edition is beautifull. Thanks BP!"


The BnF also has Le P..."

These are beautiful, BP. I like the Doré but also the Dargent.

[Kalliope]

In parallel I am reading Mann's Doctor Faustus an I am noww at the section on the Divine Comedy and its relation to music.

[Helmut]

Bjorn wrote: "I’ve been reading Dante’s Inferno on my subway ride to work"

Wow, that's a horrifying image! It really captures the feeling of hopelessness and sadness... of traveling by subway. :-) I love it!

[Book Portrait]

Love that subway ride Bjorn! :)

I'm slowly catching up. From what I gather, Dante's otherworld is based on Ptolemy's geography, where the Earth was the center of the universe and the sun just another planet in the sky.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy

Strangely it seems that it's the Devil that stands in the middle of it all... ^^


Sorry this is in French but the D stands for Diable (aka The Enemy or the Adversary, among other lovely nicknames...)

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_C...

[Book Portrait]

A good map:

(view spoiler)[


Big pic: http://www.twistedmba.com/wp-content/...
(hide spoiler)]

ETA: Is this spoilerish? I'm not sure so I'll put it behind a spoiler warning. Let me know if it is and I'll spoiler-tag the previous post as well. Sorry!

[Book Portrait]

Prior to Dante what was the geography of the Otherworld? I'm wondering how much he's "invented."

I'm also wondering why the jews end up in limbo, given that they recognise the same god.

Of course Hebrew cosmology wasn't as developed as Dante's. The Sheol is where the dead went. No tiered Otherworld as far as I know:



Big pic: http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.co...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol

The universe of the ancient Israelites was made up of a flat disc-shaped earth floating on water, heaven above, underworld below. Humans inhabited earth during life and the underworld after death, and the underworld was morally neutral.

From the wiki page on Biblical Cosmology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical...

[Nobody]

Thanks Book Portrait the spoiler map is one of the best I've seen.

[Bjorn]

Book Portrait wrote: "A good map:

Oh yes, thanks for that.

Prior to Dante what was the geography of the Otherworld? I'm wondering how much he's "invented."

I'm curious about this too. The standard opinion seems to be that most of what we think we know about Christian dogma on heaven and hell was made up by Dante and Milton, but just how much of it was made up out of whole cloth and how much was based on apocrypha, church teachings, folk tales, and "Everybody knows that..."?

[Lisa]

From a recent article in The Boston Globe:

"The most famous guides to the underworld, of course, are Virgil and Dante, whose poetic imaginings of the place, written almost 1,500 years apart, both still exert a mythic cultural power. But Kroonenberg goes out of his way to show just how extensively both authors derived their ideas about the underworld from the actual Mediterranean environment in which they lived. Those famous nine circles of hell? Kroonenberg locates their source in the layered limestone deposits thrust up from under the Mediterranean when Africa and Europe collided and began closing in on each other. Those underground fires, noxious fumes, and ominous rumblings? The volcanically active environs of Vesuvius and Etna. “Who knows,” Kroonenberg writes, “perhaps the Underworld would have looked very different if classical culture had developed around the North Sea.”

Inevitably, mapmakers were asked to take stock of the various dimensions of the Inferno, as listed by Dante in his poem, and to use them to map hell onto the world.

[Bjorn]

That is interesting, thanks!

“Who knows,” Kroonenberg writes, “perhaps the Underworld would have looked very different if classical culture had developed around the North Sea.”

IIRC, most descriptions of Hel in Norse mythology picture it as a cold, barren place - basically, eternal winter. Hang on, what does wikipedia say...

In the book Gylfaginning, Hel is introduced in chapter 3 as a location where "evil men" go upon death, and into Niflhel. The chapter further details that Hel is in the ninth of the Nine Worlds.

...Huh. That's about 100 years before Dante. (Nine very different worlds from Dante's nine circles, though. Also, of course, the Eddas were written down by Christians who were probably familiar with most mainstream myths of his time.)

[Katie]

Bjorn wrote: "Book Portrait wrote: "A good map:

Oh yes, thanks for that.

Prior to Dante what was the geography of the Otherworld? I'm wondering how much he's "invented."

I'm curious about this too. The stand..."

I think there is a decent amount of debate going on about that! Jacques Le Goff's The Birth of Purgatory is a medieval history classic and he argues that purgatory (as we understand it) didn't come to be until the later 12th century. Before that there was some idea of an 'in-between' place but it was much more diffuse. I'm not sure how much in the book deals with actual topography, though. There's a little disussion of it early on (and you can read most of the work on Google Books, I think).

And I haven't read this book, but Eileen Gardiner is a great scholar so it's probably pretty good: Visions of Heaven and Hell Before Dante. It's a mix of primary sources and commentary.

The general impression that I've gotten was that Dante was original but (like most original people) he also pulled from existing ideas with which he was familiar. He unsurprisingly picks up some ideas from Virgil (Hell as a pit, the particular sense of time that comes up later). Le Goff cites this from Book 6 of the Aeneid:

When on the last day we are lost ot th elight we do not shed away all evil or all the illsthe body has has bequeathed to us poor wretches, for many flaws cannot but be ingrained and must have grown hard throuh all our length of days. Therefore wesouls are trained with punishment and pay with suffering for old felonies - some are hung up helpless to the winds; the stain of sin is cleansed for others of us in teh trough of a huge whirlpool; or with fire burned out of us - each one of us we suffer the afterworld we deserve [translation is Jacques Le Goff's]

The idea of the punishment fitting the crime is very old, going back to Virgil and probably back to older Jewish and Zoroastrian ideas. There was an Apocalypse of Ezra from the early Christian period that has some similarities to Dante (in structure of hell/purgatory and style), and the Apocalypse of Paul was pretty popular. But yeah, I think it was a mixture of all of those things + Ptolemy, as Book Portrait pointed out. Dante's afterlife is a very ordered, structured one.

[Katie]

Bjorn wrote: "That is interesting, thanks!

“Who knows,” Kroonenberg writes, “perhaps the Underworld would have looked very different if classical culture had developed around the North Sea.”

IIRC, most descri..."

That's really cool! I'd like to know more about the Nordic Nine Worlds. I know in Christianity 9 can be an important number because it's essentially The Trinity x The Trinity (3x3). Though, to be fair, most numbers from 1-10 were sometimes considered important. Medieval monks liked numerology.

[Bjorn]

Katie wrote: I'd like to know more about the Nordic Nine Worlds.

This site seems to have a decent summary. But again, the problem with Norse mythology is that there is very little contemporary written material; most of what we know was written down about 200 years after christianisation, and there's some debate over just how well the sources reflect what people actually believed. But the idea that ancient Scandinavians pictured hell as a world of eternal cold, right on the edge of the Void... Yeah, I have no problem buying that. :)

[Katie]

Bjorn wrote: "Katie wrote: I'd like to know more about the Nordic Nine Worlds.

This site seems to have a decent summary. But again, the problem with Norse mythology is that there is very little contemporary wr..."

Thanks! That's very helpful to me, most of my Norse mythology knowledge is filtered through pop culture.

It's so interesting that so many different world cultures have some sort of tree of life as the center of their cosmology or philosophy.

[Kalliope]

Katie wrote: "B
Prior to Dante what was the geography of the Otherworld? I'm wondering how much he's "invented."

I'm curious about this ..."

I am very tempted by Le Goff's book... Yann and may be BP have also been considering it.

[Yann]

Kalliope wrote: "Katie wrote: "B
Prior to Dante what was the geography of the Otherworld? I'm wondering how much he's "invented."

I'm curious about this ..."

I am very tempted by Le Goff's book... Yann and may be..."

I will try to read it before we start the next volume!!

[Katie]

Kalliope wrote: "I am very tempted by Le Goff's book... Yann and may be..."

I actually haven't read the entire thing, just selections from it for classes I've taken. But those sections were interesting. Le Goff is a 'big idea' kind of historian, where he tries to capture people's mindsets and how they thought about things. If you like that sort of thing, you'll probably enjoy his work.

[Linda]

Book Portrait wrote: "A good map:



Big pic: http://www.twistedmba.com/wp-content/...


ETA: Is this spoilerish? I'm not sure so I'll put it behind a spoiler warning. Let me know if it ..."

I love this! I'd seen the one that BP posted, but this is good, too!

[Linda]

Bjorn wrote: "Book Portrait wrote: "A good map:

Oh yes, thanks for that.

Prior to Dante what was the geography of the Otherworld? I'm wondering how much he's "invented."

I'm curious about this too. The stand..."

Related to the geography--One of my colleagues has published a book called "The Birth of Satan", which studies the images of Satan. How much of what we imagine as the Devil was actually present in the O.T., and which images can be attributed to literature, etc. that came later?

Here's the link:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/363506.The_Birth_of_Satan?from_search=true

[Kris]

Kalliope wrote: "Katie wrote: "B
Prior to Dante what was the geography of the Otherworld? I'm wondering how much he's "invented."

I'm curious about this ..."

I am very tempted by Le Goff's book... Yann and may be..."

I highly recommend Le Goff's work -- he's one of my favorite historians.

I think Katie is on the right track with her descriptions of Dante's significance in helping to create this picture of Purgatory -- as well as in developing a very detailed picture of the topography of hell. I'm writing from work, so I need to break off now, but I'll try to catch up with this wonderful thread tonight.

[Kris]

Bjorn wrote: "^^ Nice.

At the other end of the spectrum, I just stumbled across this:

I’ve been reading Dante’s Inferno on my subway ride to work

"

I love this image!!

[Kalliope]

Kris wrote: "

I highly recommend Le Goff's work -- he's one of my favorite historians. ....."

I am also a fan of Le Goff...

Dante's Limbo was already different from the one defined by Christian dogma.

[Lily]

Katie wrote: "...The idea of the punishment fitting the crime is very old, going back to Virgil and probably back to older Jewish and Zoroastrian ideas...."

It is my understanding that one of the "new" ideas of the Book of Job was the possibility that "punishment" could be independent of "crime" or wrongdoing. ("It is generally agreed by scholars that the book comes from the period between the 7th and 4th centuries BCE, with the 6th century as the most likely date..." Wiki entry)

I don't know when the concepts around actions carrying their own consequences became foundational to human self understanding. Some might say with origin stories such as Genesis.

[Lily]

@126 Katie wrote: "...There was an Apocalypse of Ezra from the early Christian period that has some similarities to Dante (in structure of hell/purgatory and style), and the Apocalypse of Paul was pretty popular...."

Katie -- I find descriptions two versions of the Apocalypse of Paul, believed unrelated; do you refer to a particular one here?

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/ascp.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalyp...

[Lily]

Richard wrote: "It's worth noting how Dante ends up swooning out of sympathy for the damned Francesca da Rimini in Canto V..."

Blake's view of the Francesca da Rimini story:

http://www.blakearchive.org/exist/bla...

Here is the most complete archive of Blake drawings associated with The Commedia that I have found. Unfortunately, they are not always clearly linked with a specific canto. (Some are marked on the illustration itself.)

http://www.blakearchive.org/exist/bla...

There is also a supplementary collection at an Australian site which includes at least a few not found above:

http://www.ngv.vic.gov.au/col/tools/c...

(I will add this to the art resources thread as well.)

[Lily]

Crisper image: http://content.ngv.vic.gov.au/retriev...



Here is Blake's second version of Cerberus for Inferno Canto VI.

(Which figure is Dante, which Virgil?)

Here is Dore's drawing of Cerberus:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia...

Ivo David:

http://www.ivodavidfineart.com/images...

[:-)] For a very different view, try:

http://sydwiki.blogspot.com/2011/07/c...

Overcoming Cerberus without weapons was the twelfth labor assigned to Hercules. As watchdog of Hades, Cerberus guarded the entrance the Underworld, permitting only the Dead to enter and no spirits to escape. The traditional three heads have been considered to symbolize or "see" birth, youth, and old age or sometimes past, present, and future.

[Kalliope]

I have also just finished Canto VI, and here is Dalí's version of Cerbero..

[Katie]

Lily wrote: "@126 Katie wrote: "...There was an Apocalypse of Ezra from the early Christian period that has some similarities to Dante (in structure of hell/purgatory and style), and the Apocalypse of Paul was ..."

Ooh, good catch! The version looked at by Le Goff is the one discussed in the Wikipedia link.

[Darwin8u]

Cleo wrote: "Katie wrote: "I had a question for all of you, as well: how do your translations deal with the phrase 'mi ritrovai' in line 2 of Canto I? The Durling translations conveys it as "I came to myself" i..."

Clive James:
At the mid-point of the path through life, I found
Myself lost in a wood so dark, the way
Ahead was blotted out.

This all is reminding me of the first time I listened to Pinksy's Inferno. I figured I'd just listen to it on the way to work every morning, two kids in the back. By the time I got to Canto VI, my wife insisted I stop terrorizing our children on their way to school. I think Dante ended for my kids when they started referencing a 'reptile body aquiver'*

*Canto VI, line 22.

[Linda]

Darwin8u wrote: "Cleo wrote: "Katie wrote: "I had a question for all of you, as well: how do your translations deal with the phrase 'mi ritrovai' in line 2 of Canto I? The Durling translations conveys it as "I came..."

Best Dante story so far! :)

[Lisa]

Just for fun, I'd like to share a bit of an Annie Proulx story I happened upon last night, "Fine Just the Way it is," from her collection Wyoming Stories 3.

The Devil is thinking of doing a little redecorating. He's driving his golf cart around, looking Hell over with his personal secretary, Duane Fork:

"It was not until the Third Circle that the Devil came alive with inventive eagerness. Cold rain and sleet hammered down on soil the consistency of a decayed sponge. Figures writhed in the mud. The Devil paused to hear some of the latest gossip, which came in a hundred languages. The hoarse, desperate howling of Cerberus echoed from the black cliffs.

'Bad boy! Bad boy!' shouted the Devil encouragingly as he tossed the creature a handful of meatballs. Multiple heads snapped at the flying treats, none escaping the triple throat. Cerberus barked out thanks and a bit of news.

'Did you know that about Sarkozy?'

'No sir,' said Duane, taking a note.

'We can do something here,' said the Devil. What we need are all those things that made New Orleans so great-- slippery car tops, floating boards with protruding nails, a lot of sewage in the water, conflicting orders. Or maybe a tsunami once in a while. The place seems made for a classy tsunami. And I would like a heavy miasma to hang over everything. This ground fog is almost worthless.' He looked at the Stygian rock slopes streaming with black water. 'Hell, the view alone is worth billions. Breathtaking. I've always loved this place.'

[Lily]

Lisa wrote: "Just for fun, I'd like to share a bit of an Annie Proulx story I happened upon last night, "Fine Just the Way it is," from her collection Wyoming Stories 3...."

[g] Thx, Lisa!

[Lily]

Katie wrote: "The version looked at by Le Goff is the one discussed in the Wikipedia link. ..."

Thx, Katie!

[Richard]

The sin of acedia (end of Canto VII) is receiving some recent attention, by authors who can understand the condition under modern psychological theory. Is it simply sloth, a creeping lethargy, anxiety over a planet in peril, or is it something closer to what we term clinical depression?

Acedia, Bane of Solitaries
Norris writes 'Acedia,' finds God's joy again
Acedia and the fear of an overpopulated planet

Maybe the sinners sunk in the mire of the river Styx had a really bad case of slackerdom. Or maybe those are the ones we're going to encounter later, on the fourth level of Purgatorio.

[Richard]

ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "The good master said:"Now, my son,
we approach the city known as Dis,
with its vast army and its burdened citizens"

I think this properly belongs with the Week 2 readings.

[ReemK10 (Paper Pills)]

Richard wrote: "ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "The good master said:"Now, my son,
we approach the city known as Dis,
with its vast army and its burdened citizens"

I think this properly belongs with the Week 2 rea..."


Thanks Richard, I'll move it over. Sorry, I jumped the gun.

[Lily]

@150/151 -- No wonder I couldn't find the msg of ReemK10 to which Richard was referring! (Didn't turn the page until I had searched a couple of times!)

I know msg #'s can change if something is deleted, et al. But, I will make the perhaps unreasonable request that with so many and so many long messages, if a response or question refers to a comment some considerable distance away, the commentator consider including an @msg# indication.

[Megan S]

Hi all, just one of the quiet ones who is following along; I wanted to express gratitude for the thoughts, links, and artworks. Loving this read, and looking forward to more. :)

[[deleted user]]

Sorry I'm so far behind.

I just got the Ciardi translation, and so now I'm catching up on last week's reading. (I have previously read the Sinclair facing page edition, which is quite literal and thus very useful for parsing the Italian.) Ciardi's poetry is amazing. I especially enjoyed his translator's preface, where he worked through one example and gave four possible translations. Coming up with his faux terza rima is brilliant! The narrative comes through so much clearer than any other translation I've read. It's an absolute pleasure to read.

There are a few things I've been paying more attention to on this reading. For starters, I'm curious about Dante's goal. What is he after? He's trying to get up a hill. He doesn't want to be lost. He'd love to see Beatrice again, we can guess from "La vita nuova" and Virgil's story about her to encourage Dante. Then there's the mystical experience of seeing God--seeing God before the afterlife that is. So he wants all those things--they're all reasons why he says yes to Virgil's proposal. And the Virgin Mary wants it (and who says 'no' to the Virgin Mary?)

But I'm curious if whatever Dante is after is the salvation that most Christians talk about. I'm not sure it is. The limits of reason and the need for divine revelation--most Christians would probably agree with those things. And the way Dante's sin gets in the way of him reaching God...I imagine a lot of contemporary Christians might relate to the metaphor of trying to get up a hill. Now different sins as animals impeding your progress...that might be a stretch.

But there's something beyond just reaching heaven/seeing God/overcoming sin. In a later canto, Virgil defends Dante's presence in Hell, saying he requires "full experience" ("esperienza piena"). And as Dante the character goes along his path with Virgil, he really enjoys talking to people and figuring out their stories, using his unique position to get them to talk. He's the journalist meeting with the guerrillas in the jungle, trying to get a good story. A good story or a great poem, as it were. But something to make Dante the writer famous, to allow him to produce a work of great writing--something worthy of allowing him to truly join the Greatest Poets of All Time Club we see in Inferno IV.

In any case, I'm really curious about that tension between Dante the sinner seeking God and Dante the poet seeking great material. I hope to be following it as we continue reading.

[Teresa]

In one way, I was wishing for a 'facing page edition' to read, but I'm very happy to be reading the Ciardi for my first-time reading of TDC.

I too am very curious about the tension you mention in your last paragraph, Chris. (And the dynamic of the sinners Dante purports to have sympathy for along with those he has no pity for whatsoever, which always pleases Virgil.) An author using himself as a character is something we see today and might consider postmodern, a la Coetzee and others, and the reason behind an author doing it is always interesting to me.