Divine Comedy + Decameron discussion
This topic is about
The Divine Comedy
Dante's Commedia
>
01-09 Feb.: Inferno I-VII
Mod
Nueve ensayos dantescos
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These figures, in difference to those from classical times, had encountered Christianity and one of them, Saladino, had fought it.
Kalliope wrote: "Saladin"My edition has to say to the presence of Saladin here:
"Saladin's presence may surprise: The sunnite sultan of Egypt of Kurdish origin (1138-1193), enemy of the Christians in the 3rd Crusade, although he defeated them in 1187 at Jerusalem and was then one of the greatest heroes of Islam, was regarded in European literature as epitome of "The Good Knight", of the generous and magnanimous lord (cf. Walter von der Vogelweide and Lessing's Nathan der Weise)."
Helmut wrote: "Bjorn wrote: "You can either be eaten by the symbolism..."That's what I meant when I said in my review that you simply cannot understand that text without notes. Some things can be inferred, like..."
I agree that the notes are helpful to get the historical background, though I thought that scene worked pretty well even without that specific biblical reference; if the forest is allegorical, which it clearly is, then the beasts are too, whichever shortcomings or sins they represent (one interpretation I've seen is that the leopard represents vanity, the lion pride, and the wolf greed; Norton notes them as "incontinence, violence, and fraud"). Divvy them up any way you like, the story becomes: Dante, at the height of his life and his professional career and his political troubles, comes to a point where he cannot go on without corrupting himself. And along comes Virgil and tells him he can't get around them, and he can't defeat them, even with the aid of a famous poet - he can only walk another path.
Behold the beast, for which I have turned back;
Do thou protect me from her, famous Sage,
For she doth make my veins and pulses tremble."
"Thee it behoves to take another road,"
Responded he, when he beheld me weeping,
"If from this savage place thou wouldst escape;
Because this beast, at which thou criest out,
Suffers not any one to pass her way,
But so doth harass him, that she destroys him;
And has a nature so malign and ruthless,
That never doth she glut her greedy will,
And after food is hungrier than before.
(...)
Therefore I think and judge it for thy best
Thou follow me, and I will be thy guide,
And lead thee hence through the eternal place,
(Longfellow)
In short: you can't just ignore life's perils or just barrel through them, you have to learn to understand by example.
It's all very Buffy the Vampire Slayer, really. :)
Mod
"Saladin's presence may surprise: The sunnite sultan of Egypt of Kurdish origin (1138-1193), enemy of the Christia..."
Yes, my editions also emphasize the way Saladin was viewed in the Western Mid Ages, as a model of magnanimity quality which he had shown, ironically, during the third Crusade.
My point is that him together with the other two Muslim thinkers, had been exposed to Christianity, but had not embraced it-- in difference from the other figures who had lived before Christ. But Dante includes them in "his" Limbo. A different conception from the Limbo of Christian dogma.
Helmut wrote: "That reminds me of the outcry when Raoul Schrott's German translation of the Ilias was published. He had Zeus say to Hera: "Dir hat man wohl ins Gehirn geschissen?" - a very rough and colloquial wa..."HA! I like that. But yeah, that's my point exactly: A lot of what was originally written as colloquial or even outright vulgar (all those dick jokes in Shakespeare) are often made to sound much more cultured by translations, partly because of the age of the original, but also of its status; if it's a Masterpiece Of Literature, it must be treated with a certain respect. Which it should, of course, but not to the extent that it's defanged.
(There was a huge outcry in Sweden about 10 years ago when the Bible was retranslated and all those old sayings based on either the 16th century translation or the 1911 one were suddenly turned into modern language. "Varde ljus!" ("Let there be light!") turning into "Ljus, bli till!" ("Light, become!") just doesn't have the same oomph. There's a balance between making the text understandable and non-archaic, and not robbing it of the inherent... well, magic that both religious and narrative texts are intended to invoke - Dante calling upon the muses, etc. A text is a spell put on the readers; they need to both understand it and be entranced by it.)
Bjorn wrote: "A text is a spell put on the readers; they need to both understand it and be entranced by it.."Very nice!
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"Saladin's presence may surprise: The sunnite sultan of Egypt of Kurdish origin (1138-1193), enemy of the Christia..."
Yes, my editions also emphasize the way Saladin was viewed in..."
I too was surprised that Dante included Salah al-Din al-Ayubbi in his poem:
"And Saladin I saw, alone, apart." Canto iv
"The reputation of Saladin as a virtuous, generous, and humane leader, gallant and valorous in war, is reflected in chivalric romance and other narrative of the period. Dante assigns Saladin a place of honor in Limbo, among the heroes of Troy and Rome (Inf. IV.129). Boccaccio's depiction of the Muslim king is unequivocally flattering, owing in part perhaps to a similar treatment in the anonymous Novellino. In Decameron (I.3 and X.9) he plays a central role; in the latter tale, Boccaccio describes Saladin, whose hospitality to Messer Torello was unparalleled, as a man of "courteous deeds and sterling worth." http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Ital...
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I do like your Delacroix Kalliope! Are you familiar with Benlliure y Gil?
Benlliure y Gil was a Spanish painter who became a leading member of the Spanish community in Rome - he was among a select group of artists in Rome supported by pensions from the Spanish government. This painting was prepared in 1919.
"The Barque of Charon"
José Benlliure y Gil (1858-1937)
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I found this depiction of Averroes(Ibn Rushd) "who wrote the weighty glosses":
Triumph of St. Thomas Aquinas in Santa Maria Novella, Florence
"Although Thomas Aquinas and later philosophers owed Averroës a major intellectual debt, they also fiercely criticized his writings.The depiction above of the Islamic philosopher is a detail from the Triumph of St. Thomas Aquinas in Santa Maria Novella, Florence. In the fourteenth-century fresco, Andrea di Bonaiuto placed Averroës with the heretics Sabellius and Arius in the space beneath the saint’s throne." (http://www.neh.gov/humanities/2011/no...)
ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "A 19th-century interpretation of Charon's crossing by Alexander Litovchenko.
In Greek mythology, Charon or Kharon (/ˈkɛərɒn/ or /ˈkɛərən/; Greek Χάρων) is the ferryman of Hades who carries souls..."
I think I've heard something about other cultures placing pennies on a dead person's eyes....same idea (and keeps the body from creeping people out as they sit vigil! :) )
Bjorn wrote: "Helmut wrote: "Bjorn wrote: "You can either be eaten by the symbolism..."That's what I meant when I said in my review that you simply cannot understand that text without notes. Some things can be..."
The Mandelbaum claims the leopard represents lust, which even furthers your point! (repeated vice/sin...)
It's very hard for me to get a good grasp on how Christianity and Islam related to each other during the later Middle Ages. The easiest sources to access tend to offer a pretty dire picture (because they tend to be crusading sermons or ecclesiastical teaching tools), but there also seems to have been lots of pretty cheerful coexistence on the level of reality. This was particularly true in the eastern Mediterranean - I'm pretty sure that I remember reading once that each new wave of crusaders who went east were rather scandalized by how well the older generation got along with people practicing the Islamic faith, to the extent that they had picked up some of their cultural habits and clothing. It's a theme that pops up in Boccaccio too: can you really blame a person who lives a good life, just because they were born in an area where Christianity wasn't practiced? The official answer was still yes, but by around this time or a little bit later people are at least starting to ask it, and some seemed to be saying no.
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My editions (the Italian) comment on Dante having a particularly high opinion on Averroes, and incorporated many of his ideas in his other works. Averroes was a commentator of Aristotle, even though many of his ideas created major problems to the church.
Raffa in his The Complete Danteworlds: A Reader's Guide to the Divine Comedy, mentions that Averroes believed "the concept of an eternal active intellect implies immortality of the human species but not the individual".
I am finding very interesting the way Dante is trying to reconcile the Roman/Greek world (and selectively some Muslim elements) with Christianity as it existed during his life.
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Katie, I agree. It is a tough topic. Remember that the coexistence of the Christian and the Muslim was also quite complex in the Iberian peninsula (for example, Averroes was from Cordoba).
Kalliope wrote: "I am finding very interesting the way Dante is trying to reconcile the Roman/Greek world (and selectively some Muslim elements) with Christianity as it existed during his life. "It's super interesting! It was one of the most important points in later medieval intellectual life and continued on into the early modern period. Way back since St. Augustine was writing (especially in his On Christian Doctrine), there was the popular idea in intellectual circles that non-theological and even non-Christian knowledge should be used as long as it was used for the proper ends (usually a greater knowledge of God and creation). There was the understanding that non-Christians could still grasp hints of divine illumination even if they didn't know to call it that, and thus it was appropriate to take their knowledge and 'baptize' it. Most intellectuals seemed to think that if something was 'true,' it was inherently Christian because in the end all truth belonged to God. Of course, things got messy when one tried to figure out what was true, and how to separate the true from the false. And yes, Raffa is right in pointing out the bit about the immortality of the collective soul. It's the thing that was most objected to by more conservative theologians concerning Averroes' thought and made some very wary of him in general.
Averroes himself was a really interesting figure. He was commenting on Aristotle during a period when the caliphate was cracking down on theological deviations. Because of this, he had to set up his thought so that philosophy and theology were two entirely different spheres of thought and operated with different rules. This caused all kinds of problems when it got imported to Christian universities and often got its practitioners (like the colorful Siger of Brabant) accused of double-think.
Kalliope wrote: "Katie wrote: "It's very hard for me to get a good grasp on how Christianity and Islam related to each other during the later Middle Ages. The easiest sources to access tend to offer a pretty dire p..."Yes! I wish I knew more about medieval Iberia. It's not something that I've studied a lot. I do have a friend who is working on a project on inter-faith relations in Spain through the lens of a multilingual Dominican friar named Ramon Marti, and it sounds really fascinating.
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"His translations and commentaries on Aristotle (in Latin) were directly responsible for renewed interest in his work in Europe and could be said to have helped pave the way for the Renaissance. He was referred to by Thomas Aquinas as ‘The Commentator’ for his work on Aristotle, and Dante’s roll-call of influential pagan philosophers in The Divine Comedy ends ‘with him who made that commentary vast, Averroes."
Ibn Rushd says, "If someone else has examined these subjects in the past, the believer should build upon their work, even if they did not share the same religion. For, just as in any subject of study, the creation of knowledge is built successively from one scholar to the next. This does not mean that the ancients' teachings should be accepted uncritically, but if what is found within their teachings is true, then it should not be rejected because of religion."
ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "What I've always liked about Ibn Rushd/Averroes is what he says about interpretation, that interpretation is relative to our own nature and intellect, and that there are different levels of interpr..."That bit about interpretation is very cool, thanks for sharing.
Do you know who is the figure on the right in that picture?
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On Iberia, there is this book The Ornament of the World: How Muslims, Jews, and Christians Created a Culture of Tolerance in Medieval Spain. But I have not read it yet.
Will check on Ramon Marti.
Katie wrote: "Do you know who is the figure on the right in that picture? "The small script next to his head says "Porfir...", so I assume it's Porphyry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyry...
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On Iberia, there is this book Ornament..."
And as a counterpoint to that book, see also David Nirenberg's Communities of Violence: Persecution of Minorities in the Middle Ages.
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And here is Celestine V again:
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyry_%2..."
Yes, it is Porphyry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averroes
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And as a counterpoint to that book, see also [author:David ..."
Kris, thank you for this book.. and I see that Katie has written a superb review...
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"Because of this, he had to set up his thought so that philosophy and theology were two entirely different spheres of thought and operated with different rules. This caused all kinds of problems when it got imported to Christian universities and often got its practitioners (like the colorful Siger of Brabant) accused of double-think."
Katie, I don't think that this is true. Averroes did not think that philosophy conflicted with religion.
"Now since this religion is true and summons to the study which leads to knowledge of the Truth, we the Muslim community know definitely that demonstrative study does not lead to [conclusions] conflicting with what Scripture has given us; for truth does not oppose truth but accords with it and bears witness to it."
But he did think that (not my caps): "PHILOSOPHICAL INTERPRETATIONS OF SCRIPTURE SHOULD NOT BE TAUGHT TO THE MAJORITY. THE LAW PROVIDES OTHER METHODS OF INSTRUCTING THEM.]
Again, this is because the majority is incapable of coming to an accurate interpretation. You may like to have a glance at this and possbily bookmark it:
AVERROES
ON THE HARMONY OF RELIGION AND PHILOSOPHY
http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ir/fa...
Cleo wrote: "Katie wrote: "I had a question for all of you, as well: how do your translations deal with the phrase 'mi ritrovai' in line 2 of Canto I? The Durling translations conveys it as "I came to myself" i..."Wow, great resource, Cleo! Does she mind if we call on her every day?! :)
>>>Katie (katie1421) | 24 comments It's very hard for me to get a good grasp on how Christianity and Islam related to each other ... been lots of pretty cheerful coexistence on the level of reality. <<<<<I always found it interesting that many Christians living in the east converted to Islam willingly. Many were fed-up with all church doctrine disputes and politics. Islam was appealing because it was less complicated and much less political (no church hierarchy). This was the situation with Christians in the East (forgot exactly what centuries). But the situation in the west was different, and in places such as Spain, there was power and political struggle. I hate to generalize because the situation is not so black-and-white (its difficult for me to keep it straight so ignore me) but I thought it interesting. Once I finish all these general surveys, that is a topic I want to explore more.
I believe in Dante's time, many thought the church as corrupt (it varied by location blah blah blah). Historians actually call many of the popes during Dante's period "pope-lawyers"; Boniface VIII was one of them! Pope's who are lawyers, now there is concept.
Maybe Kris can chime in about this, since I'm still learning about this period and going from memory here.
ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "Katie, I don't think that this is true. Averroes did not think that philosophy conflicted with religion."Sorry, I probably wasn't clear about what I was trying to say: Averroes definitely didn't think that philosophy and theology were incompatible, but he lived during a time when religious authorities were becoming more suspicious about places where religion and philosophy did not quite seem to align. I think he was even briefly exiled for his writings. In the end, (but correct me if I'm wrong!) this caused him to present traditional theology and philosophy as separate (but not contradictory or incompatible) roads to truth. This got amplified by a certain school of intellectuals in Europe (who got called 'Averroists' by their detractors) who went so far as to say that one could hold entirely different beliefs in philosophy and religion.
(I've only read about this from the Christian European perspective though, so it's definitely possible that that interpretation of Averroes is out of date).
Does that make sense? And thank you for sharing that link! Looks like a very interesting read.
Green Troll wrote: ">>>Katie (katie1421) | 24 comments It's very hard for me to get a good grasp on how Christianity and Islam related to each other ... been lots of pretty cheerful coexistence on the level of reality..."Ooh, yes. If someone could recommend a good book and medieval Islam (particularly how it was structured) that would be awesome.
From Medieval Europe: A Short History by C. Warren Hollister"The popes humbled the Empire only to be humbled themselves by the rising power of the new centralized monarchies of northern Europe. By the end of the thirteenth century a new concept of royal sovereignty was in the air. The kings of England and France ... were becoming less and less willing to tolerate the existence of a semi-independent, highly privileged, internally controlled Church within their realms ...."
"Boniface VIII was another lawyer-pope - proud, aged and inflexible - whose visions of papal power transcended even Innocent III's. He made it known that the pope is the "emperor sent from heaven" and "can do whatever God can do." But Boniface failed to grasp the momentous implications of the new centralized monarchies. His great weakness was his inability to bend his stupendous concepts of papal authority to the realities of European politics."
[EDIT: I think I'm a week ahead on the Boniface thing, but there it is.]
We should totally talk all about Boniface when he shows up. He's such a fun pope.
Linda wrote: "Cleo wrote: "Katie wrote: "I had a question for all of you, as well: how do your translations deal with the phrase 'mi ritrovai' in line 2 of Canto I? The Durling translations conveys it as "I came..."I'm interested in this too.
This is classic. Get the updated edition. It used to be available as an ebook in the US, but due to copyright "complications" they yanked it.
Albert Hourani's History Of The Arab Peoples. In my notes I put this covers 7th through 21st century. Don't hold me to that though.
Katie wrote: "We should totally talk all about Boniface when he shows up. He's such a fun pope."Papal history is not something I'm too familiar with, so I'm looking very forward to that.
Kalliope wrote: "Super posts, Katie and Reem... Thank you. I need to think more about them.On Iberia, there is this book [book:The Ornament of the World: How Muslims, Jews, and Christians Created a Culture of To..."
Any more recs on Medieval Spain? I'm totally lost when it comes to that area, and its usually mentioned as an after thought in surveys. I want to get a good understanding before I launch into the Spanish Inquisition.
Mod
The Medieval Spains by Bernard F. Reilly-- basic overview.
A History of Medieval Spain by Joseph F. O'Callaghan. Huge, encyclopedic, termed the standard one volume work on medieval Spain by some reviewers.
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Ooh, yes. If someone could recommend a good book and medieval Islam (particularly how it was structured) that would be awesome. "
Katie, is this the kind of focus you are interested in? Guardians of Islam: Religious Authority and Muslim Communities of Late Medieval Spain by Kathryn A. Miller?
For those of you interested in medieval Christian views of Islam: Saracens: Islam in the Medieval European Imagination by John Tolan.
I can recommend a bunch of other books too if anyone's interested -- just let me know.
Mod
Middle East & Islamic Studies Collection
Medieval History of the Middle East
http://www.library.cornell.edu/collde...
Medieval Islam A Study in Cultural Orientation
http://oi.uchicago.edu/pdf/medieval_i...
Kris wrote: "For those of you interested in medieval Christian views of Islam: Saracens: Islam in the Medieval European Imagination by John Tolan."This once looks excellent. Thanks, Kris!
From Canto V as translated by Pinsky, where Dante describes the multitude of the Lustful:As winter starlings riding on their wings,
Form crowded flocks, so spirits dip and veer
Foundering in the wind's rough buffetings
Upward or downward, driven here and there
With never ease from pain nor hope of rest.
I thought I'd just put this here - hope this link comes up for all of you
Spectacular Starling Flock.
Richard wrote: "From Canto V as translated by Pinsky, where Dante describes the multitude of the Lustful:As winter starlings riding on their wings,
Form crowded flocks, so spirits dip and veer
Foundering in the w..."
That's absolutely amazing. Thanks for the link, Richard.
Teresa wrote: "Richard wrote: "...As winter starlings riding on their wings,
Form crowded flocks, so spirits dip and veer...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vhE8S..."
"That's absolutely amazing. Thanks for the link, Richard..."
Yes, indeed. Thx! Just shared with several bird-loving, reader friends. Reminds me of scenes of flamingos in parts of Africa.
Mod
Thank you for these references, Kris.
Katie wrote: "Sorry, I probably wasn't clear about what I was trying to say: Averroes definitely didn't think that philosophy and theology were incompatible, but he lived during a time when religious authorities were becoming more suspicious about places where religion and philosophy did not quite seem to align. I think he was even briefly exiled for his writings. In the end, (but correct me if I'm wrong!) this caused him to present traditional theology and philosophy as separate (but not contradictory or incompatible) roads to truth. This got amplified by a certain school of intellectuals in Europe (who got called 'Averroists' by their detractors) who went so far as to say that one could hold entirely different beliefs in philosophy and religion."In his book, he is very clear: 1)Coran is the only certain truth, 2)Philosophy helps intelligent people to better understand it with interpretation: they have to do it (and only them), 3)These interpretations may cause social troubles, so no one should talk or write about it: it's strictly forbidden.
In the coran, the world existed before God created it, so there is no contradictions with Aristotle's opinion. This question of contradiction, or differents paths to truth, is only a problem for Christians.
Mod
Yann, I am glad you posted this. I was about to include a link to your review.
Perfect.
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A couple of samples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hyI2a...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dauBN...
So, cantos IV-VII. Have to say I'm a bit surprised at how quickly we're burning through the circles here; I was expecting each circle of hell to be a substantial part of Inferno, and now we're already done with heathens, horndogs, gourmands, embezzlers and anger management class candidates. I'm really curious about what happens next now.
The irony of Ciacco:
But when thou art again in the sweet world,
I pray thee to the mind of others bring me;
No more I tell thee and no more I answer.
(Longfellow)
...and yet, at least according to the notes in my copy, the real identity of Ciacco is still a bit of a mystery. In other words, he's mostly remembered as a character within Dante who begs Dante to help him be remembered.
Also, Virgil is really getting sick of Dante's questions, isn't he?
And he to me: "O creatures imbecile,
What ignorance is this which doth beset you?
In all seriousness, though, Dante's attitude towards the doomed is interesting: He has compassion with them (well, some of them), he vaguely questions their fate
Wherefore I said: "Master, these torments here,
Will they increase after the mighty sentence,
Or lesser be, or will they be as burning?"
and he names them. In a sense, it's a resurrection, or at least an exemption from eternal damnation - for all that they're referred to as "shadows", they still get to be remembered as who they were.
Also, how neat is Francesca's story, hmm? I love the parallel to the Arthurian legend there, just like I love that Dante is greeted by poets in the first circle (and has them elevate Dante himself to one of them); the Commedia really believes in the power of poetry.
It's worth noting how Dante ends up swooning out of sympathy for the damned Francesca da Rimini in Canto V, but in later section of Inferno becomes sufficiently hardened to change his attitude to contempt and anger.Here are more Youtube links for that section, which has contributed inspiration to many classical composers:
*Francesca da Rimini by Tchaikovsky
*Dido (and Aeneas) by Purcell
*The overture to Semiramide by Rossini
*Prelude to Tristan and Isolde by Wagner
*Elizabeth Taylor is Cleopatra to a score by Alex North
These are amazing discussions. It's my first encounter with Dante so I have much to learn. I'm reading the Ciardi translation and find the author's notes very helpful.
Divine Comedy + Decameron
Books mentioned in this topic
Invisible Cities (other topics)Magic and Superstition in Europe: A Concise History from Antiquity to the Present (other topics)
Enchanted Europe: Superstition, Reason, and Religion, 1250-1750 (other topics)
Fearful Spirits, Reasoned Follies: The Boundaries of Superstition in Late Medieval Europe (other topics)
A World Lit Only by Fire: The Medieval Mind and the Renaissance: Portrait of an Age (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Euan Cameron (other topics)Michael D. Bailey (other topics)
Darren Oldridge (other topics)
Kathryn A. Miller (other topics)
John Tolan (other topics)
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In Greek mythology, Charon or Kharon (/ˈkɛərɒn/ or /ˈkɛərən/; Greek Χάρων) is the ferryman of Hades who carries souls..."
Great painting, Reem. I did not know it.
The one I am more familiar with is this one by Delacroix: