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The Waves
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The Waves - February Group Read
Karen wrote: "I am finding this book very tedious. I am at the part where they are all meeting in the restaurant- no one has a narrative vo ice, they are not speaking to each other, it's very choppy and surreal...."I'm not so far into it yet but I'm finding that they all have a voice. Loud ones at that.
It's true that this isn't a novel where we read discussions between the characters; we have to surmise that part ourselves. Like when Bernard goes to comfort Susan in the woods. They must have spoken together more than we're told in the book. But we're getting the essence of what was said between them and that essence tells us a little bit about who Bernard is and who Susan is.
Slowly, through this snippets of the essential beings, we get to know these characters.
When the one who is the "speaking" voice isn't actually speaking with another, then we're getting a peek into their innermost thoughts and beings.
I do that, too, sometimes in restaurants in a larger group and just listen. There's already so much conversation going on....sometimes two or three conversations so that it's hard to keep up with any....that listening is the best way of keeping up with all that's going on around me. I can't say if this is what's happening in the restaurant scene, though, as I'm not that far along yet.
At this point in the book, what is the general impression you get of the kids? Who are they becoming? What sort of people are they?
Percival.Let's talk about him. He plays a part in this book but we never actually hear his thoughts.
He's just been introduced at the part that I'm at so I know very little about him.
What's his appeal to each of the kids? Why does he have so much influence on them? (please, don't get too far ahead and tell me too much. I'll catch up quickly, I promise, but don't want too many spoilers....not big ones anyway. Thanks)
Throughout The Waves, the characters struggle to define themselves, which they do through their relationships with others. Bernard articulates this struggle most clearly. He realizes that who he is depends on who surrounds him — his words and thoughts change in relation to his companions.
Bernard sees the mind and the self as fluid, with permeable boundaries that enable people to “flow” into one another and essentially create one another. Bernard’s understanding of reality connects to this idea of “flow”: he sees reality as a product of consciousness. He rejects the idea of an “outer” world of unchanging objects and an “inner” world of the mind and ideas. Rather, our minds are part of the world, and vice versa. For Bernard, if there were no minds to perceive the world and bring it into being, the world would be empty.
He applies this idea to the flower on the table during the first dinner party. Since seven people perceive the flower at once, it is a “seven-sided flower.” Later, after Percival’s death, Bernard thinks that reality itself is diminished by the loss of a consciousness — the flower is now only “six-sided.”
Thoughts on the bolded (or any other parts)?
Is the world empty if we weren't here to perceive it? This is a little like the age-old question of: if a tree falls in the forest, and there's no one around to hear it, does it make a noise?
For myself: of course the tree makes a noise and something did hear it; just not "us". There was an animal around to hear, there were waves of sound that emanated from the tree, whether or not the sound was heard, it was there.
The same with the world if we weren't around to perceive it. It's still there, it still has life...it's just that we wouldn't see it.
Bernard sounds a bit narrow in his outlook. I'm going to read his development with interest now. He's kind of just been there to me. He's wordy and blabs a lot but he hasn't really stood out in any way.
Petra, my book is on the Nook, so I wasn't sure where I should stop. I stopped where they were on the train. I'm ready to discuss the kids.
I am sorry, I don't like this book-at all. It is considered a masterpiece, I know that. I can't comment on the characters, there is nothing for me to say about them, and again, it's not the interior monologue or the stream of conciousness that I don't like. I don't like the style of this novel, and I really wanted to. I can't read a book I don't like, I read Ullysses- parts of it I skipped, and you can read my review of it. I loved some of Bloom's interior monologue and stream of conciousness, parts of it I hated, I skipped those parts. I don't like any part of this book except for the beautiful prose, that's not enough for me. I can't comment on the characters, there aren't any, there is one narrator who seems to be speaking about them, I can't get a sense of any of them and I need to move on. I was so looking forward to a group read, with women- the first time for me. I wanted to read a V Woolf book, so this seemed great. But I cannot read this. I won't read any more books that I find a real chore, Ullysses was the first and last of those, but with that one at least I found a lot of humor in it. I'm sorry Petra, I really am. The next book chosen for a group read that I want to join I promise I won't do this.Karen
Petra wrote: "Percival.Let's talk about him. He plays a part in this book but we never actually hear his thoughts.
He's just been introduced at the part that I'm at so I know very little about him.
What's his ..."
Percival, reminds me of the high school football quarter-back town hero kid who all he is good at is playing football p20.
My favorite characters are Bernard and Jinny. Jinny is a free spirit, happy go luck kid.
Bernard is a story teller. He is comical with his phrases, comparing things that don't make any sense and twiddling a string as he tells his stories.
Karen, don't feel bad. Some books are like a that. If they don't appeal, its no fun reading them. But don't give up on this discussion. Pop in, read the comments and add you thoughts at any time. You can always participate here.
Irene, if the above description of Bernard is true, isn't he a person without a sense of self? If he needs his surroundings to find a personality for himself, isn't he a bit of an empty shell?
I don't dislike any of the children. I feel bad for Rhonda because has very low self esteem. I think it is because she has trouble doing math. When they are in school she becomes terrified when she sees the teacher close the book and write a math problem on the board. She stares at it and doesn't solve it. She only sees figures, not numbers.
So far, I don't find Percival appealing. He sounds clumsy, loud, pushy and someone who has to be the center of attention.I got the first indication that Neville is gay: when they are in Church, Neville watches Percival draw his hand across his neck and thinks, "for such gestures one falls hopelessly in love for a lifetime".
Petra wrote: "So fast, I don't find Percival appealing. He sounds clumsy, loud, pushy and someone who has to be the center of attention.I got the first indication that Neville is gay: when they are in Church, ..."
I thought Louis was gay when he is thinking about Percival. But, now I wonder if it is that these two boys wished they were like Percival.
Petra wrote: "Irene, if the above description of Bernard is true, isn't he a person without a sense of self? If he needs his surroundings to find a personality for himself, isn't he a bit of an empty shell?"I am going to review all of Bernard's thoughts, because I know he is always telling stories and using a string to almost hypnotize the others. But this spell doesn't work on Percival. Now thinking about it, when they graduate, they get on a train. Bernard disappears and reappears on the platform and has no ticket to get back on the train. He "lost" it. He gets off the train and it takes off with out him.
Bernard left them. I am trying to make sense of him not being a person.
Petra wrote: "Karen, don't feel bad. Some books are like a that. If they don't appeal, its no fun reading them. But don't give up on this discussion. Pop in, read the comments and add you thoughts at any time. Y..."Thank you Petra! I will definately participate in the Beautiful and Damned discussion,
Karen
In my introduction to this book, it said that Percival is not really a character like the others, but represents the idealized hero that we all aspire to, whether in literature or popular entertainment or whatever. That is why we don't get to see him in the same way we see the others.I don't see Bernard as empty, but as the extreme extravert. He processes externally. He understands his world, himself, as it is reflected back to him through others. His is the delight of society simply because people are interesting. There is a difference between Bernard's interaction with people and Jenny's. Jenny seems to love the beauty and excitement of society, the romantic in some ways. Bernard can leave the train and get totally caught up on the platform with whoever is there because whether he is with a prince or a street sweeper, there is something wonderful to be learned and experienced. Jenny seems more focused on herself and therefore on how the interactions impact her. She seems to need to be affirmed or loved or whatever the word is.
I did not think "gay" at all in this book.
Honestly, I have a hard time talking about, thinking about any of these as distinct personalities. There is a softness to the edges and a consistancy in voice that makes me regard them as aspects of the narrator (presumably Woolf). In a sense, we all have a bit of each of these people in us. They dominate and receed like waves depending on our situation, our life stage, the social needs of the moment, etc.
Mod
Well put, Irene. I was reading a bit more last night (the kids are almost leaving school now).
Jenny seems to me to be a real party girl. She wants to be in the limelight, have people notice her and she likes being in the light (the day). She doesn't like the night (or being out of the limelight), it seems to make her feel like she's disappeared. She needs to be the centre of attention.
Sadly, she's also looking for that man who will make her feel special and "in the light" all the time. That's going to hurt her one day.
She's going out in party dresses and lights to find more light. She doesn't have a lot of inner strength and confidence; she relies on others for that.
Bernard loves his storytelling. He babbles on and on until people wander away. He holds them captive, in a way, until they make a getaway.
He does have ideas and thoughts, so he isn't empty, but he relies on his surroundings, as you say, Irene, to give him feedback and keep him going in some way.
I like Susan. She feels so constrained in a structured setting and longs for the country. She loves Nature and fresh air. She's someone who would love a simple life without too much society or glamour. She's your denim and pigtails girl; completely down to earth and solid.
I haven't figured Rhoda out yet. She feels so insignificant and empty. I kind of feel sorry for her. She's missing out on her surroundings and a lot of life because she's holding back so much. I hope she gains some confidence in this book and begins to enjoy herself for who she is.
Sheila wrote: "Very interesting reading everyone's comments. I completely missed almost all of this. The whole first part was just a blur for me, no real distinction between any of the children. It could be that ..."Sheila, hang in there. The writing style does take a little getting used to.
That is a good way to put it, Jenny likes to be in the light. She likes to have people look at her while Bernard likes to be looking at others. It makes sense that he is the story teller because stories invite us to look at others. He reminds me of any book-a-holic, every character he meets is potentially entertaining and interesting like any good character in a book for many of us. Unlike Jenny, we don't need the pretty people, just characters. And, I can understand Bernard's sense that he is better known when he knows others because I feel as if I understand myself better as I read. Stories illuminate.
"My father is a banker in Brisbane and I speak with an Australian accent. I will wait and copy Bernard. He is English. They are all English. Susan's father is a clergyman. Rhoda has no father. Bernard and Neville are the sons of gentlemen. Jinny lives with her grandmother in London." P10 HDNOOK.Rhonda, has no father. A negative conntation. Who is Rhoda? She struggles within herself. She doesn't like herself.
But Jinny lives with her grandmother. A positive connotation.
Is that how they are looked at? Is that how judgement is made?
Would you guys be ok if I joined in the discussion later this month? I have the book sitting on my shelf, and haven't had time to start it yet but would love to discuss it with you all once I'm finished!
This novel is like a puzzle. Take a close look at all the parts. Read it through and at the end it will come together.
Any time, Dee. Join us when you're ready. This thread is always open and discussion won't end.
Bernard is turning out to be quite a messy young man...and one that knows that someone else will gave to clean up after him. That made me laugh because it sounds so "frat house" like and until now I've gotten a different impression of all of their lives, which seem so structured, neat & tidy.
Percival, stopped Bernard from telling a story. I think Bernard is trying to follow in his father's foot steps. He uses phrases and tells stories.
The next 4 posts are about the 3rd section:In the section describing the sea and the sky, the third paragraph from the end that starts "Now glancing this side, that side, they looked deeper..." and ending "Now and then they plunged the tips of their beaks savagely into the sticky mixture" talks about the underside of nature. I wonder if this means that the kids (now College age) are beginning to see the seedier, nastier side of life?
The rest of the sea/sky section is still lovely and beautiful; only this one paragraph is about the unseen underworld. So our kids are still living in a nice, interesting world but they are beginning to see the nastier underside?
The saddest thing Bernard has said is "....which of these people am I? It depends so much upon the room. When I say to myself, 'Bernard', who comes?". He sounds so unsure of himself and his identity.
When Neville comes to his room, Bernard feels sure that Neville leaves because of the messy state of the room. There's no inkling in his mind that there may be other things on Neville's mind than Bernard and the state of his room. I'm not sure yet whether this is Bernard's insecurities or whether he's rather egotistical.
Neville is definitely gay. He's so torn up about it. He goes to confide in Bernard ("I am trying to expose a secret told to nobody yet") but then chickens out and leaves. He feels repulsion and shame about himself ("tell me whether I am doomed always to cause repulsion in those I love?"...."I would rather be loved....But am I doomed to cause disgust?"). The poor guy just wants to toss his life away and go somewhere where he can be a freer soul ("to be poor always and unkempt; to be ridiculous in Piccadilly").
Louis is doomed to always feel like an outsider. In school, his background and accent make him stand out and apart. In the working world, his accent makes him stand out and apart. I'm pretty sure these things are in his head only and that others accept him. He just doesn't see it. It's sad that the smartest kid in class, the one who wants the education, is the one who doesn't get it. Being from a working class family, his schooling stopped before college. He's so jealous of Neville & Bernard for their educational opportunities and the avenues this opens up for them....roads closed to himself. It's really a shame.
Susan is so at home in the country. Her sections are the most secure of all the kids. She's finding her niche and her place in life. It's a simpler place than the others. I like reading her sections. They are the happiest and most serene.
Where the heck are Jinny and Rhoda? Are they together at this party or at two separate parties? Are these debutante parties? Are they coming out to society?
Jinny is in heaven. She's right where she's always wanted to be: the center of attention, dressed in silks and looking ravishing.
Rhoda just wants to leave but feels that she must stay. This will be her life, she feels.....never happy, always wanting to leave.
Irene wrote: "Percival, stopped Bernard from telling a story. I think Bernard is trying to follow in his father's foot steps. He uses phrases and tells stories."Nice catch, Irene! I missed any reference to Bernard's dad, other than he was a "gentleman" and one of the privileged class.
Percival, as a character, is confusing. He's the jock, the popular boy. He's the one the other boys envy but he's not around much so he's not really a character in my eyes. He seems to mean a lot to these kids but I can't figure out why. He's just a popular kid from their school.
Another observation from Section 3 was that in all of the soliloquies each of them remembers some of the others, except Jinny. She neither remembers or mentions any of the others...she's thinking only of herself and her feelings.
Is each section indicated by the description of the sky and where the sun stands in relation to the earth?
I'm beginning to think so, Irene. I think the birds represent the kids. As the sun rises, the birds sing alone more but occasionally sing together, for example. In section 4, each bird sings passionately. The kids must be in their 20s now (after college), which is a passionate time of finding one's place in life, finding partners, exploring life. They are each living their own lives (singing alone) but socially get together occasionally (singing together).
What do you think about the position of the sun. I was going to reread those prose, because I wonder if it indicates their age.
I think so, too. I just read Bernard's soliloquy on page 89 of my edition and he talks about birds and snails, just like in the sea/sun section. So, I think the birds do represent the kids and the stage of life that they are in.
The sun then would represent the arch of their lives and where they are in their lifecycle. Dawn=young, on the horizon= teenage, above the horizon (separate for the first time)=college, higher up=20's.
It's ingeniously done, I think. Each section of sea/sun description gives us a description of life in as the decades pass. A day represents a life.
At some point, as the sun again hits the horizon and the world darkens, the birds must come together again to nest.
I'm really liking this book. I'm sad that so many of us aren't, though. There's something about how the story is being told that is fascinating. I'm still trying to put my finger on it.
Mod
Even though I did not like the book, I am enjoying the terrific comments on this thread. I am particularly grateful that we have another "Irene" on here who is posting comments far more insightful and intellegent than anything I have ever posted. I am hoping that maybe some people will read quickly enough to get us confused. LOL
I finished sections 1 and 2. I'm not liking it, mainly because I don't get a sense of what's happening (if anything). When the kids leave the school, are they still kids? I don't get the sense of the passage of time.
Mod
http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/waves/s...
Jennifer, it is a bit confusing at first. The sense of time comes from the sea/sun passages at the beginning. In the first part, the kids are in some sort of elementary school. I get the impression that it's a boarding school but I'm not sure.
In the second part, the kids to go high school. The boys go to a boy's school and the girls to a girl's school.
They start as a whole (one group) and then separate into 2 groups. Life is slowly separating them from a group into individuals.
In these parts, we're mainly getting to know the kids.
Bernard is all words. He likes telling stories. He notices details and people around him & likes to make up stories about them from the small details he sees.
Neville likes order. He's pretty staid and proper.
Both Bernard & Neville come from money and their fathers are gentlemen.
Louis is from Australia. His father is a merchant or something but not money or a gentleman. Louis feels this class distinction and feels that it & his Australian accent set him apart. He's also the smartest of the bunch in school.
Susan is very emotional and feels anger and love very deeply.
Jinny likes attention, to dress up and to sparkle. She's the party girl.
Rhoda is withdrawn and uncertain about everything. She copies the actions of others so that she knows how to behave. She's very afraid of everything.
Hang in there. In the introduction, Virginia's husband, Leopold, stated that the first 100 pages are the hardest to get through.
Hopefully, this little summary will help you in the next part (where most of them go to college but some further separation happens).
I just finished Part 4 (the restaurant scene). I can't say I got too much more out of it.Bernard feels as if he's only a person or a being (not sure which) when he's around people. Solitude is uncomfortable for him.
Neville loves Percival and is delighted to see him again, even if only for an evening.
Louis is still feeling like an outsider.
Susan is the Earth Mother of the group. She loves the country; hates the city. There's a bit of a lecture/sermon about having children and protecting & defending them above all other things, even if she has to lie. I'm not sure what to make of that. It seems a bit one-sided. If she does have children (which I'm sure she will), she's in danger of losing herself in them. Or maybe I'm reading too much into it. Most mothers will defend their children through almost anything.
Jinny is the party girl still. She loves that attention and the finer clothes. She's very much a surface person, where the exterior is important and will move her forward. How does this bode for her old age? Will she become despondent as her looks age?
I'm worried about Rhoda. She's so withdrawn and just can't relax & enjoy. She's afraid of everything; nothing fits well with her. I'm worried about her future. She sounds deeply depressed or something.
Petra wrote: "I'm really liking this book. I'm sad that so many of us aren't, though. There's something about how the story is being told that is fascinating. I'm still trying to put my finger on it."Me too, there is something here a message. That is what I am looking for.
I am also thinking about who's personalities are these in relation to Virginia Woolf. Are they her thoughts from different views? Siblings? They are very different people. What brought them together?
My edition has an introduction that says something about this, Irene. I haven't read it, though, but did skim the part about the kids quickly.Louis is based on T.S. Eliot. Susan is based on Virginia's sister, Vanessa. I don't remember the rest but will look it up.
This is the one thing I'm not fond of in this book. I haven't had a classical education and I'm not sure that its taught anywhere anymore so many of the references in this book are completely lost to me. I've occasionally looked in the footnotes and, if I find the phrase I'm confused about, it will refer to some poem (T.S. Eliot's The Waste Land is mentioned fairly often) or some classical book or something that Virginia seems to think is normal and basic, while for me it's unknown. So, it seems that Virginia is expecting her readers to have a different basic understanding of some classical pieces than is normal in today's world.
That makes sense to her, because she is referring to authors of her time. While authors of our time, will refer to objects and people of this time.
Exactly....which makes it harder for us to understand what she's trying to say and/or do with this book. It's not a big complaint....but it's the only one I have about the book so far since I'm enjoying it so much. :D
How's everyone keeping up with the schedule? Too fast? Too slow? Just right? According to the schedule, this week (Feb 8-14) we're reading & discussing Sections 3 & 4, which is up to the restaurant scene.
Is this about where people are in their reading? Should we hang tight or keep trucking along?
Please ask any questions about the book and/or the characters as you read along. It makes for great discussion when a question is posted and it keeps the discussion focussed on your points of interest.
I'm on track, I'm starting section 4.
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Books mentioned in this topic
Ulysses (other topics)Ulysses (other topics)
Mrs. Dalloway (other topics)
The Waves (other topics)
Cain (other topics)
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I like Susan. She is who she is. Her feelings are right there; she doesn't hide them. I think this makes her life hard but others will always know where they stand.
She took refuge in the trees when she felt angry, which seems to me to mean that she takes solace in nature and the outdoors.
She's a natural person. Rather like an early hippy.
I'm not really fond of Neveille. He seems like a prim & proper kids who always follow the rules, who always does right and who probably rats on the others for some brownie points with his superiors. He's too stiff and proper. But he's young, so maybe he'll change.
How old are they?
They seem awfully young, yet their language is older. I think the language is mostly Virginia Woolf and not the kids. There's that scene (view spoiler)[where Louis is masterbating (I almost missed this but checked it in my footnotes and...yup....that's what he was doing) when Jinny came and kissed Louis (hide spoiler)], which leads me to think that they are a bit older but still pre-teen.