Foucault's Pendulum discussion
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Foucault’s Pendulum
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Dicussion thread 7 : Chapter 73 to end of Chapter 88
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Hold on a moment! I've been starting to become more and more suspicious... about these 'quotes' at the start of the chapters... I'm starting to suspect that these are just made up. I think that Eco is playing with us just like Belbo, Diotavelli and Causabon was playing the fool, and the kabbalistic structure of the book, is a bit like the kabbalistic structure that Belbo had built around the shape of a car...?
I've only looked up a few so far and, if I remember correctly, they all checked out. Now I am inspired to check a few more. I'll get back to you. :)
The problem might be that I'm reading an ebook which is a conversion of a conversion. I've discovered an autoscroll function on one of my readers, and that is my newest toy. :P...so in this 'converted' version I've been reading, a few of the titles seemed a bit off, for instance, "Holy blood" reads as "Holy blonde" I thought this was just a typo, but I noticed one or two more, and then wondered if Eco might not subtly be changing the titles ? I'll have to go find my tree book again and check it up there.
I think its a typo. I don't remember any holy blondes and I think I would have done.
Re Belbo's files and the shocking discoveries of historical personalities.That chapter was brilliant and hilarious, not only did Belbo point out John Dee's clairvoyant Edward Kelly as the true and secret author of the Shakespeare plays, but he also ascribed Bacon as meaning to create a false historical trail that would make it look like he wrote them. And that got me thinking that Eco shows Bacon in fairly bad light, there's an impression of an evil and power-hungry, highly manipulative man who murdered John Dee, abused Elizabeth I and tried to steal the authorship of another author. I wonder if there are some hidden intentions/criticism in libelling these characters in this fashion.
Dolors wrote: "Re Belbo's files and the shocking discoveries of historical personalities.That chapter was brilliant and hilarious, not only did Belbo point out John Dee's clairvoyant Edward Kelly as the true an..."
Yes, interesting thoughts. I've started to get the impression that in this book, Eco is poking fun at ALL types of conspiracy theories, of which the stories around Shakespeare, Francis Bacon, John Dee (btw, have you read The House of Doctor Dee ?) are examples. I'm actually surprised he hasn't said anything about Richard II yet, or is that still to come?
I wonder if Agarttha has any connection to the Hollow Earth theory, btw?
Only 17,700 Google hits worth of connection, LOL
Traveller wrote: "Hold on a moment! I've been starting to become more and more suspicious... about these 'quotes' at the start of the chapters... I'm starting to suspect that these are just made up. I think that E..."Well, the one I tried to check (I was actually just looking for a translation of something that didn't seem quite French) turned out to be a full verse of a song that I'm certain was recorded after this book was published: so it could have been cribbed from Eco! I'll dig that up when the cat gets off my lap :-) I think they're genuine, though. Certainly the names and books cited exist, so I doubt he'd make up the content.
Traveller wrote: "The problem might be that I'm reading an ebook which is a conversion of a conversion."I'm reading from the authorized e-book publication, and it's still got some odd quirks.
Yeah, I think I just picked up a typo or two. I've checked the content of a text now, (Marquis de Luchet, Essai sur la secte des illuminés, Paris, 1789, v and xi) and it does seem genuine.Gee, and Eco didn't even have Google! :o
Oh! We missed his birthday. Eco turned 82 on Sunday.There are those who claim Google is making us stupider (not my word!) but I can't help wondering how smart Google makes Eco look!
I think it is amazing that he had all that info at his fingertips without the advantage of something like Google. I've been thinking he must have had a card catalogue system that far outdid that of Casaubon's, tee-hee.
Finally found my way back to this thread to update my digging into the chapter headings. I was trying to find out if I had actually interpreted the heading to chapter 13 correctly:Li Frere, Li Mestre du Temple
Qu'estoient rempli et ample
D'or et d'argent et de richesse
Et qui menoient tel noblesse
Ou sont ils? que sont devenu?
Which I pretty much correctly translated as:
The brothers, the masters of the Temple
who were fat and filled
with gold and silver and riches
and who led such a noble life.
Where are they now? What has happened to them?
So, it's a song by a band called Ataraxia, defined by wikipedia as: "an Italian neoclassical Goth opera band" (does that have any more meaningful semantic content than "band"?) They recorded it after the publication of Foucault's Pendulum, so it doesn't mean much for it's veracity.
Eco says it's from the Chronique a la suite du roman de Favel. Any references to that seem to lead back to Eco.
But isn't it from here, Derek? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_de...See this as well : http://musicologicus.blogspot.com/200...
See here as well: http://books.google.fr/books?id=mgsPA...
(Scroll down a bit for the passage)
As for your first link, Traveller, I love the trivia bit at the end: The English expression "to curry Fauvel", (now to "curry favor") arose from a scene in the Roman de Fauvel which potentates descended so low as to brush down the donkey and clean him off.
I've tried to find that passage here: http://archive.org/stream/leromandure... , but it doesn't seem to be there.However, this guy http://bishopwulfila.blogspot.com/200... also cites it as being from the Roman de Fauvel, although it is possible that he himself got it from Eco. But the problem seems exactly the same as the one I had complained about earlier; there seems to be slight spelling errors in Eco's titles. All my sources call it Roman de FaUvel, whereas Eco calls it Roman de Favel.
Could the spelling problems (I noted a few myself) be due to translation decisions?
When I have time, I'll check out those spelling niggles in my treebook.Well, I can't help feeling a bit insulted. GR recommended Essential Manners for Men: What to Do, When to Do It, and Why to me because I'm reading FP...
Ruth wrote: "As for your first link, Traveller, I love the trivia bit at the end: The English expression "to curry Fauvel", (now to "curry favor") arose from a scene in the Roman de Fauvel which potentates des..."I'd read that, and really didn't think it anything to do with the title actually cited by Eco. It's a morality play about a horse. How does that relate to Templars? Apparently, according to Traveller's references, though, it does. I'm not really surprised that the 'u' might get dropped out of Fauvel. We're talking about a 14th century manuscript. English spellings didn't settle down for many centuries after that.
I thought the "curry favour" reference seemed likely to be poor folk etymology, given that "curry" and "fauve" are given as synonyms in the wikipedia article.
Horse? Weren't we reading something earlier about collecting from a mare? Eco is right, connections are everywhere!
Traveller wrote: "...Well, I can't help feeling a bit insulted. GR recommended [book:Essential Manners for Men: What to Do, When to Do It, and W..."Don't be surprised. Afterall "The Templars have something to do with everything."
Jan-Maat wrote: "Traveller wrote: "...Well, I can't help feeling a bit insulted. GR recommended [book:Essential Manners for Men: What to Do, When to Do It, and W..."Don't be surprised. Afterall "The Templars have something to do with everything." "
I almost snorted my coffee all over my keyboard at that....gulped it down quickly and almost choked.
Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "I'd read that, and really didn't think it anything to do with the title actually cited by Eco. It's a morality play about a horse. How does that relate to Templars? ."Because a stanza contained in it:
"Li Frere, Li Mestre du Temple
Qu'estoient rempli et ample
D'or et d'argent et de richesse
Et qui menoient tel noblesse
Ou sont ils? que sont devenu?"
refers to the Templars, and is probably quite apt as an intro for that chapter in FP.
But like Jan-Maat pointed out, since the Templars were all over the place, quoting from any fourteenth century text might have been appropriate... >;D
I.m enjoying drifting through this; there are so many trails to follow and I'm reminded that I did an essay on the Rosicrucian Enlightenment in my history degree! Forgotten most of it though. All the little groupings and sects are delightfully mad. Being brought up in the religious background I was, I've come across a few of them!!
Paul wrote: "I.m enjoying drifting through this; there are so many trails to follow and I'm reminded that I did an essay on the Rosicrucian Enlightenment in my history degree! Forgotten most of it though. All t..."I've been doing the same thing Paul, and had great fun chasing a number of different threads. But at this stage (chapter 87)I feel totally saturated. I have visions of Eco quietly laughing at his imaginary reader for taking it all too seriously, just like his three heros have done. Unlike you I've had no backround knowledge about all these groupings and I'm finding it a little daunting, so I'll let them rest and enjoy the show for the moment.
Ha, remember how enthusiastic I was when we started out, how I was going to research every little thing? Well, there's just too much to research unless you're a medieval scholar and already know a lot of it, and/or it really interests you a lot.By the time I reached the end, I realized it wouldn't have made much of a difference to me if I had skimmed the history bits (with the exception of the Shakespeare bits, which I found very amusing) and had just read the bits concerning Casaubon and Belbo's lives with attention.
Traveller wrote: "Ha, remember how enthusiastic I was when we started out, how I was going to research every little thing? Well, there's just too much to research unless you're a medieval scholar and already know a..."I agree, the Shakespeare bits were hilarious! And that you can enjoy the novel just as well if you skimm over the history bits. Or you can have fun by giving yourself the excuse to research what appears interesting to you. Or you can devise a three year BA course in Foucault's Pendulum, research every single unknown item that crops up, and change your name to Casaubon while you are it! Still, I enjoyed delving into fields of knowledge that I hadn't occasion to read about before, in particular everything regarding the Sephirot and the Kabalah.
Yes, I imagine this book must be heaven for people interested in the Kabbala, gematria and so on.I found the political intrigue around the Templars very interesting, and when I find the time for it sometime, I think I'd like to read some more around their trial and the theories as to why they didn't manage to hold their own against the French king.
Actually, when you look at what actually happened, it makes the scenario suggested in Holy Blood, Holy Grail look a bit silly-- if the Templars were really built around the bloodline of Jesus and the French kings derived from that bloodline, why would that king try to destroy them?
Unless the king at that time was from a different bloodline than the one that supposedly goes back to Jesus. But that would actually also mean the the French kings were from semitic/Jewish origin...
That's what I mean about this book! I started reading about the Templars too and realised that it would take quite a lot of digging to get the story straight. In the end I think the orthodox historian view about how the French King was heavily indebted to them and so seized (or created)the opportunity to destroy them when he could, appeals to me a lot more than conspiracy theories about Jesus's bloodline. That reminds me too much of Classical Greece where every King or nobleman was the son of Zeus or some other god from the Pantheon.
Traveller wrote: "if the Templars were really built around the bloodline of Jesus and the French kings derived from that bloodline, why would that king try to destroy them? "Because kings in general, and possibly French kings in particular, were always quite big on things like fratricide!
Traveller wrote: "Hold on a moment! I've been starting to become more and more suspicious... about these 'quotes' at the start of the chapters..."
I finally finished the book last night. There was, in the end, exactly one chapter heading that seemed suspect (114). It's impossible to fact check, as it claims to be a "private letter". It is probably the longest chapter heading, and it seems just too convenient.
I don't feel that the historical Templars or any of the other people and groups mentioned in the novel really matter, or rather their historical reality doesn't matter. The book it strikes me is about how events and personages have this bizarre afterlife in the imagination of conspiracy theorists. Striking back and uncovering 'the truth' about, for instance, the Templars is irrelevant to the conspiracists way of perceiving the world. For them Belbo's answer/non-answer is itself prove of hidden knowledge. The historical truth doesn't set them free but convinces them that there is a hidden meaning that only the initiate can understand exists. They don't want answers - they want mysteries. And is itself poison to a rational way of looking at the world.
No, but what I meant was that I'm not so much interested in the other conspiracies and societies, but I am interested in the trial of the Templars, as a curiosity from the annals of history.
Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "I finally finished the book last night..."Congrats, Derek! I hope you found the ending worth pushing through for. I personally was glad I pushed through, because although I disliked the ending at first, it grew on me, and as you might have gathered, I really liked the Belbo part once I managed to distance myself a bit from the immediacy of the characters.
Traveller wrote: "No, but what I meant was that I'm not so much interested in the other conspiracies and societies, but I am interested in the trial of the Templars, as a curiosity from the annals of history."I'm actually way more interested in the Templars as a source of fiction :-) As a curiosity from the annals of history, it seems pretty much like history repeating itself. The generally accepted view that the Templars were destroyed because of jealousy and greed is a plot that has been played out so many times. Philip vs. the Templars sounds an awful lot like Henry VIII vs. the Catholic church.
I've read quite a few Templar based stories (I've been meaning to get to Jack Whyte's Knights of the Black and White, because I loved his Arthurian tales), but I'm not sure I really care why the historical Templars were destroyed.
Different strokes for different folks. ;) I'm a curious cat and history intrigues me. :)
Related to the above, about whether the quotes at the start of each chapter are real or not: if they were false (just made up by Eco), I don't think the novel's joke would be as powerful. By supplying us with these seeds of "truth" (real things that were written outside of the FP universe), Eco can more ably swing us into the realm of conspiracy along with his characters.
Kellyjosephc wrote: "Related to the above, about whether the quotes at the start of each chapter are real or not: if they were false (just made up by Eco), I don't think the novel's joke would be as powerful. By supply..."Oh my goodness, I'm 5 years late on this reply! But yes, think about it, propaganda too, is built on half-truths. The best way to convince someone of a lie is to feed them a half-truth!
Foucault's Pendulum
Books mentioned in this topic
Knights of the Black and White (other topics)Essential Manners for Men: What to Do, When to Do It, and Why (other topics)
Foucault’s Pendulum (other topics)
The House of Doctor Dee (other topics)
In which John Dee also plays a part.
It is also a sad-ish piece on Belbo lamenting his own obscurity.
"The Plan" is becoming even more sinister and foreboding, and we also meet "The Thing" .