Allegiant
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Tris taking Caleb's place..
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Jane
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rated it 5 stars
Jan 06, 2014 10:57AM
How do you guys feel about Tris taking Caleb's place at the end of Allegiant? Do you feel it should have been Caleb? Please comment your opinion, thanks! :)
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I was upset that she had to die! I didn't like the ending at all.!
It was perfectly in-character for her to take his place.What many people who liked the ending are mistaken about regarding those who didn't like it, is that we for the most part do not disagree that it was absolutely right for Tris to take her brother's place. It's so in-character that it's actually one of the book's many story flaws that she would ever have agreed to let him do the mission in the first place. No matter how angry she was at him, Tris would never let her brother volunteer to die. It was not believable that they would ever set about with these preparations for Caleb at all.
But I digress. It was completely in-character for her to take Caleb's place. But she didn't actually have to die in the story. If she was not immune to the death serum and she actually died from that instead of being shot by David, that would be different. Then her dying would be the only way; it would be the only way she could carry out this mission. But she survived the death serum only to be shot. Sorry, but once she was no longer beholden to the death serum, the plot did not require her to die anymore. Throwing David into the scene to kill her anyway was just forcing the issue for no reason.
To me, it made perfect sense that she defeated the death serum, only to succomb to David shooting her...The problem I had with that scene, where the fact that he was on to her and the plans... Beforehand there had no hints or anything about, I feel the story lacked on that point...
For her to survive the death serum only to be shot and killed anyway would be an awesome twist if her death actually meant something to the plot, if Veronica had written her story properly so that the death actually created a ripple effect in the plot - the way a real story does. See, breaking into the Weapons Lab was thought to be a suicide mission - in order to accomplish their task, someone had to die in the booby trap. But because Tris was able to withstand the booby trap, the Weapons Lab plot point no longer required her to die in order to accomplish the task. It was now possible for the character to finish the task and return alive. If another plot device was thrown into the scene to kill her anyway, separate from the needs of the actual mission, it should have been because the plot specifically needed her to be dead - because her death was some kind of instigator in the story. But as it is, her death in and of itself made absolutely no difference to the story. Nothing happened because of her being dead. The exact same outcome would have happened even if David hadn't shown up in there.If Veronica wanted Tris to die in the end, she needed to write a better story around it. The bottom line is, the story didn't need her to be dead - the author needed her to be dead just because she felt the hero should die in the end. Tris really only died because it was the author's personal preference.
I agree. If Tris had simply picked up the gun that she dropped in the hallway on the way to the Weapons Lab she could have killed David and still survived. I'm not sure why Veronica ended the book this way. I would have liked for there to be an epilogue like at the end of Harry Potter where Tris and Tobias are both alive and are reflecting on the experience.
Well, I think that Veronica Roth had Tris die, because it seemed right. Tris finally discovers what selflessness really means and what she can sacrifice for love. In the first and second book, it doesn't really seem right that Tris dies. But the third book, well, it DID make sense. Besides, it made it more unique and lasted more in my mind because of the intense ending and because it was so different from other books.
And the best part is that it wasn't contrived in the slightest!Oh, wait...
She was right to take her brothers place, but I don't think Roth needed to kill her. I hated that part
Jane wrote: "Juanita wrote: "I was upset that she had to die! I didn't like the ending at all.!"I know! The whole book she hated him, she thought of killing him several times! But of course at the end her Abne..."
Yeah! I liked the ending in the fact that Tris was true to her character and took Caleb's place, and I completely agree that the shooting at the end was out of place and should not have been in the story line.
I think it was dumb that she died by getting shot. She got shot plenty of times and was fine. I don't like how the book shouted "happily ever after" and then suddenly dropped a "REALITY" bomb.
Line wrote: "To me, it made perfect sense that she defeated the death serum, only to succomb to David shooting her...The problem I had with that scene, where the fact that he was on to her and the plans... Bef..."
I agree with you on that. David do not actually had a clue on what they are about to do except for Cara being caught putting amity serum on the drinks of someone in the control room. But still, it doesn't give him any hint what they are up to.
I felt like Roth killed Tris off just for shock value and to be the author that killed of the MC. Her death didn't add anything to the story or to the theme. I believe a major theme of the series is that thinking/being motivated by one trait is not a positive thing and that everyone should try to be influenced by all motivations when the situation is appropriate. We all know Tris is the type of person that would sacrifice herself. We have seen her do it multiple times throughout the series. She is the first person to run into battle and does so without thinking. Her rashness and need to sacrifice herself is a constant problem throughout the series. It is hard for her to step back. Tris dying is not something unexpected or difficult. She would have done the same thing in the first novel. Instead of this final act of sacrifice showing a development of character, like it would have in Caleb or Four and many others, it shows a regression of character. It would have been harder for Tris to let someone else make the sacrifice and to realize that she needs to sit back this time.
I think the death of Tris is not more of the build up of her character but more of the build up of Tobias' character. Her death established his being dauntless as he was able to face his fear of living without Tris in his life. At the end of the first book he said that he is now having a different type of bravery, whereas with Tris it was shown with her sacrifice and as for him it was living through the pain everyday and struggling towards a better life.
Kristine wrote: "I felt like Roth killed Tris off just for shock value and to be the author that killed of the MC. Her death didn't add anything to the story or to the theme. I believe a major theme of the series i..."Veronica's rationale, per her explanation, is that Tris's previous attempts to sacrifice herself were wrong but this one was done for the right reasons. Like, before she tried out of a sense of noble sacrifice but it wasn't actually going to solve the problem, and then she went to Erudite with a sense of bravado and a need to be the sacrificial hero but it was wrong and she was doing it out of guilt as much as anything. But this time, she was doing it out of pure necessity (if you actually believe that this stupid plan they were doing was really necessary) and love (for her brother). It's supposed to be growth because she's doing it correctly this time.
I see what Veronica is saying but what a weird story. So basically the entire series was about a teenage girl trying to figure out the proper way to sacrifice her own life. Great. That makes sense. I think that's part of why no one really understands the ending and why she did it - no one would have ever guessed that this was the point of the story, because it's stupid.
*facepalm* there were clear parallels between Tris and Caleb. When Tris went to Erudite headquarters to sacrifice herself she did it because she didn't want to live with her guilt anymore, but then she learns that that was wrong and that is not what sacrifice is. She then learns that Caleb is doing the exact same thing at the end (and she IS having an inner turmoil about him as well) and Tris realises that despite everything, she can't let him do that because it's not a true sacrifice. Plus her deaths as foreshadowed. What I'm saying is that there a re a lot of reasons as to why her death was the right way to go - don't get me wrong. I love Tris and bawled my eyes out but it was the right thing to do. She learnt what real sacrifice that her parents made meant. The hero doesn't always live, and if she had survived then the ending would've been done. I think that the epilogue with the zip lining is very sweet. I mean, most of the characters don't survive.
**the ending would've been stupid. Sorry about that typo.
there were clear parallels between Tris and Caleb. When Tris went to Erudite headquarters to sacrifice herself she did it because she didn't want to live with her guilt anymore, but then she learns that that was wrong and that is not what sacrifice is. She then learns that Caleb is doing the exact same thing at the end (and she IS having an inner turmoil about him as well) and Tris realises that despite everything, she can't let him do that because it's not a true sacrifice.No kidding. Yes, I did notice the parallel between Caleb volunteering to sacrifice himself for the wrong reason here and Tris doing the exact same thing in the previous book. I would have noticed that even if the book did not actually come right out and say that 14 times. Figuring out that connection is not exactly worthy of a gold star.
But yes, actually, the whole point of Tris's story in this series was, in fact, about figuring out the correct way, correct reasons, for one to sacrifice their own life. That is actually how the author explained the story. That was the whole point. For her to understand what a real sacrifice was after not quite getting it those other times she tried to carry it out. And that is a very peculiar story to tell. JMO. The Caleb thing, the blatantly obvious parallel, was a plot device to help Tris understand what was truly wrong with the reasons she was doing it before and to realize at long last what the real reasons should be.
And I also think a lot of this story suffers from the innocent fact that Veronica Roth is not a parent. She does not seem to realize that the unconditional, sacrificial love that a parent would make to protect their children is not the same thing as, well, anything else on earth. I never interpreted Natalie and Andrew's "sacrifices" as an example of the true meaning of sacrifice; it was just what any parent would do to save their child. No one could possibly understand that if they are not a parent themselves, and so I feel like Tris's whole journey in trying to figure out what her parents did is a waste of time. She's not going to get it by virtue of the fact that she is not a parent and does not understand what it feels like to be a parent and have your child's life in jeopardy. And I feel that if Veronica Roth were a parent, she would have known that, that this is not something a person who is not a parent - particularly a 16-year-old child - could ever understand, and a child seeking to emulate this sacrifice is not something a parent would be honored by. In fact, I showed Roth's blog explanation to a friend who had not read this book, knew nothing about the author, and she immediately guessed that the author does not have children. Basically, the story suffers most from the author's youth and inexperience.
But regardless of the ridiculous and immature reasoning behind it all, I wouldn't have been bothered by the end if the plot in which it took place hadn't been so obviously contrived just to force the scene to take place. Whether her decision to sacrifice in the end was to show understanding of her parents' sacrifice or because she realized how wrong Caleb's sacrifice is now or because she just has some psychotic martyr complex, it didn't really matter. There was no reason for them to even be in this climactic position in the first place. And that is the real problem with the ending. It was inauthentic and contrived. I would love to be one of those readers who just focuses in on the actual moment, but alas I must pay attention to the entire plot, the setup of said moment, and take all that into account as well. And the setup is too fake for me to take the ending seriously. However perfect in theory a plot point is, it cannot hold up if its execution is built entirely on plot holes and I can't overlook that fact here. What can I say, I am one of those accursed writers who believes in using logic. It comes in handy when trying to pull off that whole believability thing.
In a nutshell, if Roth wanted to put Tris in this position for whatever reason, could she not have troubled herself to come up with a plotline to put her there that wasn't complete bullshit?
I wish Tris had not died, but I like the fact that she took her brothers spot. I like the message that conveys. But she DYING?!?!?!?!?!?!
Emilia wrote: "*facepalm* there were clear parallels between Tris and Caleb. When Tris went to Erudite headquarters to sacrifice herself she did it because she didn't want to live with her guilt anymore, but then..."I completely agree!
I'm sad she died, but I would've been sad if Caleb died too, because in Allegiant I learned to like him. I didn't like him, but then all he tried to do was be a kind, loving brother and he wanted Tris to forgive him. I think Tris sacrificed herself for a good reason, but that doesn't meant I wasn't sad. I love her but Caleb didn't want to sacrifice himself for the right reason so I think that it was OK for Tris to take his spot.
Well I mean I don't understand what you mean when you say Celeb didnt want to sacrifice himself.. that saunds kind of selfish on his part. Plus, there was no guarantee he would have died.
Ella meant that Caleb didn't want to sacrifice himself for the right reason - his motivation was guilt and a slight suicidal mindset. Tris felt that was wrong. I agree, and I agree that it makes sense for her to take his place because she couldn't let him die for those reasons. I would have taken the story a bit more seriously if all of that wasn't so stupidly contrived.
oh ok then I agree with you about Celeb, Ella. But what really throws me off is that all she was focused on was pushing the button. Not trying to disarm or kill David, just the button. Not like it was on a time limit or anything.
Ella wrote: "I'm sad she died, but I would've been sad if Caleb died too, because in Allegiant I learned to like him. I didn't like him, but then all he tried to do was be a kind, loving brother and he wanted T..."You liked Caleb? After the end of Allegiant, I heard plenty of people say they still felt Caleb unsympathetic and unlikable; I myself was "meh" on the matter.
Oh, and Caleb only went outside the fence for Tris to take his place at the end; he could've stayed with the Allegiant in Chicago, and the story would stay the same–except that there would be no one for Tris to sacrifice her life for (Not Tobias—he's in Chicago magically convincing his mother to give up her life's ambition).
i didnt like this ending AT ALL. I felt as if most of the characters in the book were all lined up for the cliche 'happily ever after' ending and the only character who had NOT resolved their issues was Caleb. Roth had it lined up to give him the way to solve most of the characters issues in him dying in the end. However, i also feel that Tris taking his place was the exact thing you would expect from this character. I can see how it worked- i just hated it!!
I completely agree, but i still loved the book.
Personally there were the good parts mixed with the bad, which in a way made it somewhat even more heartbreaking for me, because I felt that Tris belonged with them, with Tobias. If it had ended with Tris' death, and all else failed. If she'd sacrificed her life for a pointless reason, it would have been a whole lot worse, because her death would have been for nothing.
But it wasn't for nothing; she saved her brother, and the city, and Tobias, in an essence. Look at the person she created out of him. She saved him, and he even overcame his fear of heights too, and he did it for Tris. Just like when he and Tris climbed the Ferris wheel.
Okay, I need to stop, because reminiscing on their memories is actually making me want to cry.
Overall, I loved Allegiant. Though I have to admit my heart ached for Tobias at the end.
I don't know how I'm supposed to hate Caleb when ANSEL ELGORT will is portraying this character!!!!!
I have mixed feelings for Caleb. One minute I like him, but when he does something to hurt someone, I want to throttle him. You know, like when he let his sister get herself killed. I suppose it wasn't really his fault though. It was Tris' decision, and he supported her decision, and she carried it through knowng there was a chance she wouldn't make it.
Kristin wrote: "She was right to take her brothers place, but I don't think Roth needed to kill her. I hated that part"Exactly what I think!!!
While it fit her character to take her brothers place, I hated Caleb and wanted him to do it (I'm sorry if that's harsh, it's my opinion)
I don't think its very harsh, that's what I think too.
It did, actually. Tris is predictable in that way. It's as if she craves danger. Still, I was expecting her to die from the death serum, and then she survived it, and then David was there, and he was the one who killed her.
Speaking of David, I don't think it was fair that he lived at the end. Tobias should have ripped his throat out.
I don't care if he can't remember his own name. He killed Tris, the bastard!
I don't know, this part seemed too forced. If the Verónica's objective is that Tris died at the end of the books, that went wrong, like a desicion taken in the last five minutes ... I do not think correspond to the lifestyle of Tris.This last book seems very forced, full of so much new information that eventually no longer credible.
It's a shame because the first book I found amazing.
Karla wrote: "I don't know, this part seemed too forced. If the Veronica's objective is that Tris died at the end of the books, that went wrong, like a decision taken in the last five minutes ... I do not think..."I know, right? I thought some new info was good, but there was too much of it, and the part where Tris died was put into about 1 or 2 pages, which I didn't think was right.
Yeah, the first book really was great. I found myself not liking Insurgent, though. I mean, I did like it, obviously I did or I wouldn't have read it, but it just seemed to drag. The best part of that was when Tris appeared intoxicated and she was like "You have a nice voice." I just found that part hilarious!Allegiant is probably one of my favourite books. I like books with a little heartbreak in them, because if nobody dies, nobody cares.
I didn't find the situation in and of itself particularly in-character. I did not believe that she would have ever suggested such a plan, and I did not believe that she and the others would be so dumb as to not recognize all the thousand other better options they had available to solve their dilemma besides sending someone to die in a suicide mission. I couldn't much take it seriously since it was so obviously contrived by the author just to be an excuse for Tris to have an opportunity to see true sacrifice. The end scene itself was not any less contrived. I would have much more easily believed that Tris did not bring a gun with her at all than I would believe that she would just oh so conveniently have it and then drop it right before she goes into the room where the guy in the wheelchair -- who was too weak to even make it to his staff meeting before but somehow has no problem getting to the Weapons Lab to wait for an intruder that he supposedly didn't think was even supposed to be able to live through the death serum but he's waiting there for him or her anyway -- happens to have a gun. And then rather than try to use any of the skills she was supposed to have learned in Dauntless training to subdue and disarm the gimp with the gun, Tris chooses to just dive for the button knowing full well that she's basically putting a bull's eye on her back.Yes, the ending was completely in character. I would expect nothing less from Tris than to take her brother's place and spare him a dishonorable death. Unfortunately I did not buy at all that there was any reason for them to even be in that situation in the first place, and I didn't buy what happened afterward. In the future, when they teach plot contrivance in creative writing classes, they are going to use this book as their main example.
I agree with most of these comments. It seemed pretty obvious to me at least that Tris wouldn't let Caleb follow through with sacraficing himself. So Tris throws herself into this death trap and ends up being immune to the death serurm, just to be shot? It was just a let down. After all she had been through to be shot dead. I think Roth was going for drama and ended up hindering the book. I couldnt believe Tris actually died from a gun wound.. Not to mention this book is set in the future with advanced societies that have worlds within worlds, and weapons like a damn death serum yet they couldnt heal a gun wound?? Its just ridiculous. I'm okay with excepting the death of a main character if it really adds to the story but I think it was unnecessary and ultimately done for shock value. In the end, I still love the books but I was very disappointed with the ending.
I just saw the trailer for Divergent!! Can't bloody wait!!
OK this book had me so mad for the longest time. UGH just the whole ending seemed so rushed. But I obviously knew she was going to try to save Caleb because it's who she is. BUT WHAT DID SHE DIE FOR?! she didnt save anyone's lives.... It just seemed like a waste and I thought the book could have gone somewhere cool but the whole "genetically impure" thing was just weird and stupid to me. But whatever that's where the author went with it. I think the best way for it to have ended was by Tris volunteering in the first place and then last minute Caleb taking her place and redeeming himself. It would have shown that he learned from Tris what it really was to love someone and how self-sacrifice and love was something that he had in common with his sister. It just seems like a dumb way to end the series and I was really upset with how rushed even Tobias dealing with her death was. It really didn't cover that as well as I was hoping it would. So all in all I was just disappointed.
I guess she wouldnt have left him to do it, thats not tris. but, there was many other ways the book could have ended and not that sad by killing her and damaging four. I guess veronica roth would have had other alternatives and still made the book sad and ended it dramatic. i was very upset and annoyed from the ending, tris death and tobias grief made me cry alot. wished it had a better end for such an amazing trilogy
Jane wrote: "How do you guys feel about Tris taking Caleb's place at the end of Allegiant? Do you feel it should have been Caleb? Please comment your opinion, thanks! :)"I obviously was reall upset in the ebd when tris died, but i think the reason she did that is to give us the realisation that there saying "faction before blood" may not be neccesarily true. Anyway, comparig it with the hunger games ending of the trilogy, i think this was miles better, as it gave you more emotion and thought about the book.
That ending was stupd i hated it
I DID NOT like how Tris took Caleb's place in the end of the novel. I felt as if this was his way of saying "Hey, I know my mistakes and I take responsibility." It was his redemption, and I felt like Tris took that away from him just so she could be the hero. Sure, she "thought" she could survive the death serum but she didn't know that for sure. She took a chance, and left her brother alone and hated.
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