Just Talking Showing 951-1,000 of 3,141

[Tytti]

Mickey wrote: "the actions and decisions of the Finnish are different from other eastern European countries, hinting that perhaps there were other ways to deal with circumstances than the Finnish way"

Well... Could you give an example of a country where things were handled better? I can't think of any. And I believe Finns do enjoy a very good reputation among the (older) people in Eastern Europe and most recently among the Ukrainians, probably even better than in the West, at least in those countries that had a border with the Soviet Union. As I said, they knew what we were dealing with, apparently Westerners don't, and we also understood them up to a point. And Stalin did try to install a puppet government in 1939 but it failed. People in Eastern Europe would have gladly been in the same position as Finland, and they probably also knew how it had been secured, by fighting two wars successfully.

Mickey wrote: "While the neighboring countries broke out occasionally in protests against the Soviets and strained for independence from Russian influence, Finland was safe because they were trusted to do nothing with their independence."

Against whom Finns should have protested? Against the legal government that had the backing of the people because they had just elected them and politicians who were doing more or less what people wanted them to do? There were no Soviet troops in the country (after 1956), there was no Secret Police to be afraid of. And to do nothing with their independence? Like what? Finns had the same rights as everyone else had in Western Europe, so we should have risked that in favour of becoming a part of the Communist Bloc like Poland and Czechoslovakia? It was vital to Finns that Finland didn't give any reason to invade, like they had done in 1939 (the USSR didn't even need a reason then), because then Finland would have been alone again, we learned that from WWII.

The difference is that all those countries were occupied by the Soviet Union (some twice). That's why they were puppet states, there were Soviet troops in them, they weren't democratic countries, there were no free elections, they had a communist government. That's why there were protests, that's why the Soviets were hated. There was a reason for those protests but there was none in Finland. Finland was/is a free market economy with free elections and free speech.

Mickey wrote: "it's accurate to say that Russia was only seen as a threat after 1950 in the United States or that the Americans had genuinely warm feelings for Stalin at any time."

But they still helped him. So for some reason that's allowed for Americans and they are not accused of changing sides but other countries can't do the same? And "since 1948, the USSR and Finland have had very close and warm relationship." How warm can a relationship be when the other side has to operate under a threat of a military invasion? Hardly anyone was actually stupid enough to actually believe any of the talks about peace and friendship. Everyone knew the "official liturgy" that was spoken publicly but the real thoughts were shared privately (traditionally in a sauna of course). And those thoughts were shared by the majority of the population, they were common knowledge, even the Soviets probably knew it. Men joked how the enemy will always come from the East; if it comes from any other direction, it has learned to flank.

Also there were Jews on the other side, too, committing crimes against humanity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idel_Ja... "He returned to Estonia after the June 1940 communist coup and became an investigator of the NKVD, since September 1940 leading the investigations' department of the NKVD of the Estonian SSR. Idel Jakobson was notorious for his sadistic methods (beatings, other methods of torture) during interrogations. According to the materials of Kaitsepolitsei, Jakobson took part in sentencing around 1,200 people to death and persecuting at least 1,800 people." But of course he mainly persecuted ethnic Estonians, so I guess it doesn't matter that much. Still, big numbers for a single person, though obviously he wasn't the only one.

[Tytti]

Sarah Anne wrote: "I think it's easy to judge when it's hindsight; it's a whole hell of a lot harder to make decisions in the moment."

I believe even with hindsight no one has yet figured out how Finland could have stayed out of the war and still remained independent. Not accepting help from Germany when somebody was finally willing to give it because "Stalin wouldn't invade for the second time", when he had just invaded less than a year earlier, would have been stupid. And that help tied Finland to Germany. Without it Finns would have first starved and then probably had to fight against the Soviet by throwing rocks, and the country would have been ended up as a battlefield and destroyed. At least the leadership of Finland would have been shot and the rest of the educated people taken to forced labour camps. This had already happened in Poland and in all three Baltic countries.

This is a Finnish miniseries from 1989 about the Winter War, it's quite accurate and well made IMO, and clearly shows in how bad shape the Finnish military was before, during and after the war. Any help was desperately needed. https://youtu.be/gjZWJoDeLkE?t=1h5m30s (The war has just started.) It's based on The Winter War.

[Sarah]

Oh, it looks like I wasn't clear on that. I meant that in hindsight it's easy to say one side was right and one was wrong and to blame people for being on the "wrong" side, which is really just the losing side. A government has to do what's best for it's people and typically saving the most lives is a factor, I would think.

[Tytti]

Sarah Anne wrote: "I meant that in hindsight it's easy to say one side was right and one was wrong and to blame people for being on the "wrong" side"

Well, that actually happened already during the war, too. USA demanded that Finland accepted what was offered by the USSR in the spring of 1944. That peace treaty demanded unconditional surrender (during the time when Germany was also still strong enough to occupy Finland). After the summer battles the Soviets didn't demand that anymore and Finland's situation was much better, in regards to Germans, too.

And of course UK had declared war already in 1941, so it wasn't really new. But their best interests were not the same as the best interests of Finns, and of course Finns knew that.

This is a long text about the summer of 1944 from http://finland.fi/life-society/defens..., so I'll put it in spoiler tags. Also it probably explains why Ryti was voted as the second "Greatest Finn" in 2004, losing only to Marshal Mannerheim. (He wasn't even chosen as one of the "example" nominees.) As a president he sacrificed himself and his reputation for his country.

(view spoiler)[As the battle escalated, the political climate was heating up too. It is difficult for us in the age of the Internet to understand the morass of unclear and conflicting messages and rumours in which the ministers and generals and their aides became embroiled.

Suddenly, on June 22, the German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop arrived in Helsinki, uninvited and unannounced, to demand that Finland commit itself unequivocally to Germany’s side. On the very next day, a message from Moscow came via Stockholm — a demand for surrender!

Finland was now caught in a vice between two superpowers. Surrender, it was feared, would lead to Soviet occupation, while commitment to Germany to the bitter end would spell utter disaster. Now panic broke loose in political circles.

President Risto Ryti and Finance Minister Väinö Tanner tended towards surrender, while Mannerheim and Prime Minister Linkomies considered Germany’s military aid essential in repelling the Red Army offensive. The Government was split, although the majority of MPs favoured surrender. The only solution was for the President to take a personal stand. This was executed as a brilliant diversion.

Ryti sent a letter to Hitler, stating that he committed himself to continuing the war on Germany’s side to the very end. What he did not tell Hitler was that he would resign as soon as the situation demanded, at which point Finland’s commitment to Germany would be rendered null and void.

Hitler swallowed the bluff, considering the word of Finland’s “leader” a sufficient guarantee. So did the U.S. Government, who expelled the Finnish ambassador. So did the Swedes, who declared that Finland was now irrevocably doomed. So did the peace-favouring opposition in Finland — Paasikivi, Kekkonen, Wuori and Fagerholm — who began to set up a refugee government in Stockholm.

Stalin, however, appears to have called the bluff. This is the only explanation for why the Soviet ambassador in Stockholm, Madame Kollontay, sent the would-be refugee government back home, informing them that the Soviet Union would be talking terms of peace with the Finnish Government.

The political leaders of Finland, like many other leaders over the centuries, had taken a page from Machiavelli:

“…it did not appear he should avoid any procedure in order to save the country, for as the life of Rome depended on the life of that army, it appeared to him it should be saved in whatever way, and that the country is well defended in whatever way it is defended, either with ignominy or with glory; for by saving that army, Rome would in time wipe out that ignominy; but by not saving it, even though they should die most gloriously, Rome and its liberty would be lost.”

Ryti sacrificed himself in taking upon himself the “ignominy” to which the Western world considered Finland had stooped in relying on Hitler’s Germany to halt the Soviet offensive. (hide spoiler)]

[Sue]

Melanti wrote: "For a quick summary, the 3 most well-regarded modern translations are Lattimore, Fitzgerald, and Fagles. They each have their pros and cons.

Quick summary: Fagles for fun. Lattimore for learning. ..."

Thanks Melanti and Pink. I decided to go with the Fitzgerald version because I want verse and I want to switch between reading and listening, I really liked the sound of the Fitzgerald one after sampling a few. I couldn't find the Fitzgerald addition on Goodreads. Would one of you librarians be able to add it?

[Pink]

I'm glad you found an edition that works for you, I think this edition is by Fitzgerald, The Odyssey. I'm so looking forward to starting this!

[Sue]

Pink wrote: "I'm glad you found an edition that works for you, I think this edition is by Fitzgerald, The Odyssey. I'm so looking forward to starting this!"

Thanks Pink! The cover doesn't look like the the one I reserved from the Library so I didn't recognize it. I can't wait to start also but I probably won't get to it until mid month. I like to start with the short reads so I feel like I'm accomplishing more and I'm still working on The Bleak House. The Odyssey is what I'm looking most forward to though.

[siriusedward]

I liked both fagles and lattimore .of the samples i read...i dint try others though...

[Melanti]

You can look up your particular edition by using the ISBN or Amazon ASIN in the search field.

My edition is: The Odyssey

[Sue]

Melanti wrote: "You can look up your particular edition by using the ISBN or Amazon ASIN in the search field.

My edition is: The Odyssey"

Thanks Melanti! I didn't know that. Didn't even know fo ASIN numbers either.

Have you already read this addition or will you be reading it with the group?

[Sue]

I just have to say that I hate how you can't reply on the Mobile app. So annoying. I wish someone at Goodreads would start improving that app. It's horrible.

[Brina]

For those reading House of the Spirits next month, I highly suggest reading Daughter of Fortune followed by Portrait in Sepia. Even though House of the Spirits was written first, the other two books start a trilogy with Spirits taking place last.

[Loretta]

How's everyone enjoying the new Goodreads homepage?

[Olivia]

Sue wrote: "I just have to say that I hate how you can't reply on the Mobile app. So annoying. I wish someone at Goodreads would start improving that app. It's horrible."

So much is wrong with the iPhone app, I don't understand why they can't make it better. I just use the browser on my phone instead of the app.

[Melanti]

Sue wrote: "Have you already read this edition or will you be reading it with the group? ..."

I had to read it several times in school. Though, admittedly, not every page was assigned reading, so I can't swear I've ever read it all the way through. I've read the vast majority of it though.
The first time it was an older, out of copyright translation - though I have no idea which - but the last couple was Fitzgerald's.

I haven't decided whether or not I want to re-read it with the group, though.

All the talk about The Divine Comedy has gotten me into the mood to read that, and I can only read so much epic poetry at once.

[Lena]

I have been using the beta new version for awhile now. I liked the bigger icons. I agree that their time would be better spent on improving the app. Currently writing this on my iPhone web brower.

[Loretta]

I'm on an iPad and it just feels very disjointed.

[Sue]

Olivia wrote: "Sue wrote: "I just have to say that I hate how you can't reply on the Mobile app. So annoying. I wish someone at Goodreads would start improving that app. It's horrible."

So much is wrong with the..."

I have Droid and it's horrible too. Goodreads could probably increase it's users 10 fold if it had a good mobile apps for both.

[Loretta]

Sue wrote: "Olivia wrote: "Sue wrote: "I just have to say that I hate how you can't reply on the Mobile app. So annoying. I wish someone at Goodreads would start improving that app. It's horrible."

So much is..."

Agreed.

[Melanti]

Loretta wrote: "How's everyone enjoying the new Goodreads homepage?"

If it's anything like the beta, I absolutely HATE it.
I'm dreading them forcing me to switch.


I hate that the discussions are gone from the home page. If they'd put the discussion page as a main link in the top menu instead of hiding it in a drop-down, I'd be a lot happier.

It just feels like they're ignoring everyone who uses groups on a daily basis.

[Loretta]

Melanti wrote: "Loretta wrote: "How's everyone enjoying the new Goodreads homepage?"

If it's anything like the beta, I absolutely HATE it.
I'm dreading them forcing me to switch.


I hate that the discussions ar..."

That's exactly the word they used, beta. I hate the fact that they moved their ads closer to the top of the page. Guess they don't want us to miss them! I also don't like that they "showcase" the top reading group of which I have absolutely no interest in!

[Sarah]

I don't like much about the app in general.
It's fine for a quick look, but when on my iPad I just use the web browser instead.

Haven't seen the new homepage yet. Doesn't sound like it is an improvement.

[Tytti]

No, I don't like the homepage. I tried the beta and switched it back, but now it's here for good, it seems. I already sent a message to my group members in case some can't find the group discussions anymore. I also changed my bookmark. I will probably check my homepage less often now.

[Melanti]

They've changed the survey questions for the new home page. Even if you took the survey during the beta test, take it again.

It's very group discussion centric, so they're obviously trying to get feedback specifically on group discussions.

so, spread the word to take the survey if you're not happy:
https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/MWN8LVZ

[Katy, Quarterly Long Reads]

Melanti wrote: "They've changed the survey questions for the new home page. Even if you took the survey during the beta test, take it again.

It's very group discussion centric, so they're obviously trying to get ..."

Thanks! Done.

[Pink]

Melanti wrote: "They've changed the survey questions for the new home page. Even if you took the survey during the beta test, take it again.

It's very group discussion centric, so they're obviously trying to get ..."

I've just taken the survey as well.

[Maarit]

I took the survey, too. And I hate the new layout, it's very ugly and looks like Facebook now :(. The bigger bookcovers are neutral to me (or a bit hate) but I absolutely hate the forced book descriptions on every review and all the book updates. No it doesn't make me want to read the book if it doesn't interest me and even if it's a book I'd maybe like to read I still hate the fact that it's force-choked in my face every time I look at my feed if one of my friends has interacted with the book in anyway.

[Sarah]

Melanti wrote: "They've changed the survey questions for the new home page. Even if you took the survey during the beta test, take it again.

It's very group discussion centric, so they're obviously trying to get ..."

Just did the survey too and made my dislike clear.

[Katy, Quarterly Long Reads]

I don't believe the survey will make any difference however. I think GR has the new home page designed and it will be forced upon us.

[Brina]

I haven't gotten the new homepage yet. I am trying to ignore it. Even with the changes goodreads is much better than Facebook and eventually once we get used to the changes it will be old news.

[Melanti]

Kathy wrote: "I don't believe the survey will make any difference however. I think GR has the new home page designed and it will be forced upon us."

I think the new layout is here to stay, but if enough people vote for the discussions, they might put it as a main link in the top menu or do the discussion/updates toggle again.

[Steve]

This is totally off-topic for the group, but I binge-watched Season 5 of Homeland last couple of nights. Wow! Some of the best writing and acting coming out of Hollywood. Every season they make the right call as to how the series relates to the current world situation.

[Sue]

Steve wrote: "This is totally off-topic for the group, but I binge-watched Season 5 of Homeland last couple of nights. Wow! Some of the best writing and acting coming out of Hollywood. Every season they make the..."

My son loves that show. I'm currently on a Showtime free trial so I may have to check it out but now I'm getting too addicted to reading ; )

[Loretta]

Steve wrote: "This is totally off-topic for the group, but I binge-watched Season 5 of Homeland last couple of nights. Wow! Some of the best writing and acting coming out of Hollywood. Every season they make the..."

I did this too Steve, but I binge-watched seasons one and two which were really excellent! Couldn't wait for season three to start up and then, to me it just got too unbelievable and I stopped watching.

[Steve]

Sue wrote: "My son loves that show. I'm currently on a Showtime free trial so I may have to check it out but now I'm getting too addicted to reading ; )"

I hear you, Sue. Lots of choices.

[Steve]

Loretta wrote: "I did this too Steve, but I binge-watched seasons one and two which were really excellent! Couldn't wait for season three to start up and then, to me it just got too unbelievable and I stopped watching. "

You're right, Loretta. In Season 3, the whole Brody thread unwound, but they got back on track with a great Season 4. As for Season 5, it was all shot on location in Berlin. Fantastic!

[Loretta]

Steve wrote: "Loretta wrote: "I did this too Steve, but I binge-watched seasons one and two which were really excellent! Couldn't wait for season three to start up and then, to me it just got too unbelievable an..."

I did hear Steve that it got better again but I had really lost interest in it and never went back to watching it. Glad you're enjoying it though! What about Ray Donovan?

[Steve]

Loretta wrote: "I did hear Steve that it got better again but I had really lost interest in it and never went back to watching it. Glad you're enjoying it though! What about Ray Donovan? "

You know, I haven't seen Ray Donovan, but I hear it's great. I'd also like to try House of Cards, but there's only so much time I'm willing to spend watching TV. Reading comes first.

[Loretta]

Steve wrote: "Loretta wrote: "I did hear Steve that it got better again but I had really lost interest in it and never went back to watching it. Glad you're enjoying it though! What about Ray Donovan? "

You kno..."

I've heard good thing about House of Cards but I haven't seen it either. I agree, I'd much rather be reading. In fact, most television bores me senseless!

[Lena]

There's a customize button I just used to eliminate everything but reviews, that's really cleaned up my updates. It was getting crazy and annoying getting updated on who friended who and who liked what. Now just books and what my friend thought about them - pure goodreads!

[Wreade1872]

Lena wrote: "There's a customize button I just used to eliminate everything but reviews, that's really cleaned up my updates. It was getting crazy and annoying getting updated on who friended who and who liked ..."

Yeah i'm sort of switching back and forth between the options depending on how overwhelming the updates are.

[Sue]

Steve wrote: "Loretta wrote: "I did hear Steve that it got better again but I had really lost interest in it and never went back to watching it. Glad you're enjoying it though! What about Ray Donovan? "

You kno..."

I love House of Cards. It's very dark. There are so many well produced and acted shows out there. That it's hard to choose. I tend to especially love the British ones. They have shorter seasons and don't keep them going forever which is good for me because I like trying new things, plus I lose interest after awhile.

I'm excited to watch Bleak House now that I finished the book. I'm going to watch And Then there Were None when I finish that also. I love to watch films of books I've read and TV can only be better because they'll have more time to get into it. I wish they would do a TV series of East of Eden.

[Sue]

Loretta wrote: "Steve wrote: "Loretta wrote: "I did hear Steve that it got better again but I had really lost interest in it and never went back to watching it. Glad you're enjoying it though! What about Ray Donov..."

I used to feel like that about television but it's really come a long way. I can't watch anything as it's happening because I don't want to rearrange my life around it. I watch Amazon Prime and Netflix on my own time in between reading and baseball. I'm a big movie buff but I'm finding that I'd often just assume watch a good series now rather than go out to the show. When work gets really busy and I'm too tired to read or go out, it's perfect.

[Emerson]

Yesterday I put up my Hero-actress as profile picture, today I just cut off her breasts, I was getting a 150% increase of attention... Not what I expected on a books forum...

[Brina]

Those shows sound interesting but I rarely watch tv. The only thing I still watch on tv is live sports.

[Loretta]

Emerson wrote: "Yesterday I put up my Hero-actress as profile picture, today I just cut off her breasts, I was getting a 150% increase of attention... Not what I expected on a books forum..."

Emerson, I am so sorry you had to be hassled by obvious morons! Your profile picture is lovely either way! Semper fi!!!!

[Loretta]

Sue wrote: "Loretta wrote: "Steve wrote: "Loretta wrote: "I did hear Steve that it got better again but I had really lost interest in it and never went back to watching it. Glad you're enjoying it though! What..."

Sue, I don't watch anything on Amazon Prime or Netflex. I like watching the Turner Classic Movies channel, HBO or Showtime, the news and the Yankee games! Mostly though, I'm in a book! :).

[Wreade1872]

Emerson wrote: "Yesterday I put up my Hero-actress as profile picture, today I just cut off her breasts, I was getting a 150% increase of attention... Not what I expected on a books forum..."

yeah... there's really no place on the net where my sex is capable of restraining itself :( . On the up side this is a clear sign that more people are reading, not just the intelligent ones :P .

[Loretta]

Wreade1872 wrote: "Emerson wrote: "Yesterday I put up my Hero-actress as profile picture, today I just cut off her breasts, I was getting a 150% increase of attention... Not what I expected on a books forum..."

yeah..."

Wow! :)

[Lena]

They were feeling your inner hotness Emerson. Truth though, I saw your profile photo yesterday on chat and thought that was a lot of cleavage for profile photo. There have been some hookers on here and weird scams.