A Clash of Kings
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Is no one going to talk about Sansa and Sandor?
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Candy
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rated it 4 stars
Jun 19, 2014 12:10PM
What does the word "ship" mean? I must be lost in the sauce.
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Candy wrote: "What does the word "ship" mean? I must be lost in the sauce."I would guess it´s worship, but i may be wrong - english is my 2nd language.
I think in this context might mean "Relationship" but I'm not up on the new slang.
Candy wrote: "What does the word "ship" mean? I must be lost in the sauce."It means you root for them as a couple. Pair the two together, usually romantically.
Thanks Iris and Brooklyn. Now this thread makes sense.
I think it is hilarious that people are speculating over this in 2014 when there are 3 more books actually written that provide insight into this.. you don't have to guess at this point. (as others have pointed out previously) Read people! reaaaad! lolBeyond that. I think it is pretty sick and twisted that anyone would support or cheer on a pre-teen ending up with a much older adult that basically comes to the knife's edge of raping her at one point. Not to mention.. while no one is black or white as GRRM makes abundantly clear.. He is by no means the type of man anyone would 'hope' or 'endorse' to be in a relationship with anyone except possibly their worst enemy.
Shawn wrote: "I think it is hilarious that people are speculating over this in 2014 when there are 3 more books actually written that provide insight into this.. you don't have to guess at this point. (as other..."Possibly...but the hubbub is because, with the Hound´s character, one would not expect for him to go soft on a person like Sansa. He is a ruthless and hardened killer and no one imagined he would lower his guard over her.
And no one is condoning whatever relationship they could have had - they would only have something of that kind if they both wanted it. Rape doesn´t come to the equation.
It doesn't matter if he has moments of 'softness'.. he still is as you put it a 'ruthless and hardened killer'. To ever hope that they get together is some kind of weird form of Stockholm syndrome...If you (general 'you' since that is what started the topic) use a word like 'ship' it implies that you condone or even encourage/want said relationship to happen.
And rape does come into the equation because he almost did rape her.
Shawn wrote: "It doesn't matter if he has moments of 'softness'.. he still is as you put it a 'ruthless and hardened killer'. To ever hope that they get together is some kind of weird form of Stockholm syndrom..."No he did not. There is no 'Almost rape' in that scene. He was frustrated with her decision to stay and scared her a little bit but he did not 'almost rape' her. And if you see it that way then that should be a point TOWARDS his character because he DID NOT do it!
He even states later that he should have.. (which has been covered with quotes from the books by other posters)And you don't get points because you ALMOST do it.. but decide against it.
That is seriously sick.
If someone grabs a girl, holds a dagger to her throat, makes her sing and threatens her, is on the verge of raping her but for whatever reason decides against it.. and outside of that is a 'ruthless and hardened killer'. There is nothing redeeming there. Cool... so he wasn't 100% an asshole... only 95%
and then later, people (knowing that all happened) suggest that he should somehow end up with the girl he almost raped?
That is seriously sick.
It is that kind of talk that makes me understand why people stay with people that abuse them...
Shawn wrote: "He even states later that he should have.. (which has been covered with quotes from the books by other posters)And you don't get points because you ALMOST do it.. but decide against it.
That i..."
We've discussed that point on this forum too. He only said that to Arya because she was irritating him and he wanted to shock her into silence--Which he did.
No. You assume that is why he said it. You have no proof that he didn't also mean it -- which is by far the more likely scenario.Without even the later statement to Arya, the description of the scene screamed of rape.
Shawn wrote: "No. You assume that is why he said it. You have no proof that he didn't also mean it -- which is by far the more likely scenario.Without even the later statement to Arya, the description of the..."
Consider the context though, Shawn. Sandor was begging Arya to kill him and wanted to say something that would anger her. He would have said anything at that point if it meant she'd give him a mercifully quick end. And while I agree that the scene was not the slightest bit romantic, I don't think his words can be taken as fact.
sansa is the key for the north and little finger have her in his pants sorry hands
Actually I think that Shea truly loved Tyrion... and that Tyrion truly loved Shea. However Martin excels in writing almost all of his characters with grey areas. They are all mizes of hero and villain. And we'll never know for most which is their most true character. But that's what makes them interesting. In this case remember that Tywin vowed to kill the next whore of Tyrion's that he found.
Shea might have had to say and do all that she did in an attempt to survive.
Likewise Tyrion had to kill her because, in his world, "a Lannister always pays his debts."
Even with that in mind.. you are making assumptions.. Read the scene again with him and sansa.. at the very least.. you get the vibes you get from the old guy in family guy... plus a dagger at her throat and rough treatment.He didn't rape her.. but he almost did.. Is he Really someone you would ever 'ship' to be with anyone?? Would you want your mom/sister/daughter/self to ever be with someone like that???
You can explain it away however you want.. and he might not be all bad (and might even become a better person later on... MUCH later on).. but I am sure there are only like 235235235236262623 better options for Sansa.
Stephen wrote: "Actually I think that Shea truly loved Tyrion... and that Tyrion truly loved Shea. However Martin excels in writing almost all of his characters with grey areas. They are all mizes of hero and vill..."I'm not sure if Tyrion loved Shea enough though. He kept going on about Tysha. He's still pretty obsessed with this girl. It actually upset me during his chapters because he couldn't let her go even though he had a (Then) great girl in Shea. (you know, before she broke his heart and mine)
Shawn wrote: "Even with that in mind.. you are making assumptions.. Read the scene again with him and sansa.. at the very least.. you get the vibes you get from the old guy in family guy... plus a dagger at h..."Who are you talking to here? Me or another poster? In case its me, I have read the scene, even posted it here as an example of how the two could never have a relationship. I'm in agreement on that point. However, I do dispute that he intended to rape her based on what he said later to Arya.
What he was doing with Sansa in that room was confused, drunken, and full of his usual ambivalent antics. But he was not an evil man in the end. Much like his relationship with Arya, his usual cynicism and brutal nature was mitigated for what seemed like genuine care and sympathy for her.
And I still disagree. While he might have been saying it to anger Arya, you are making assumptions if you decide he is lying just to get her to kill him. He could just as easily been telling the truth -- and based on the scene that seems far more likely.He might not be an 'evil' man.. because very few people in GRRM's world are 'evil'... but he is a bad man. And while he might have had some good within him... it doesn't make him worthy of being in a relationship with anyone... much less Sansa.
Shawn wrote: "but he is a bad man. And while he might have had some good within him... it doesn't make him worthy of being in a relationship with anyone... much less Sansa...."He´s not a bad man at heart - he does what he is told. And this affirmation is somewhat cruel. Maybe not Sansa, i´ll give you that, but i think that underneath that emotional and phisical armour there is a shy man.
Shawn wrote: "And I still disagree. While he might have been saying it to anger Arya, you are making assumptions if you decide he is lying just to get her to kill him. He could just as easily been telling the ..."Really, because it sounds like you're the one making assumptions here. You assume that he could have just as easily gone through with it, but that's not borne out by the scene for the simple reason that he chose not to. If he had wanted to rape her, he would have gone through with it without the slightest consequence. No one was there to stop him and every Kingsgaurd and soldier was occupied with the battle below.
Instead, he left her alone in her room and abandoned the city entirely. If anything, this scene demonstrates his usual ambivalent behavior, the same behavior he demonstrated towards Arya. On the one hand, he's convinced he's an animal and good for nothing but killing. On the other, he loves Sansa and feels genuine sympathy towards Arya, and appears to want to help them.
To me, Sandor is, probably, one of the saddest characters in SoI&F. Don't get me wrong, he's not a good guy. His response to having been brutalized is to become brutal himself, and that's not what a decent person does. But there are hints throughout the story that he's struggling with a deep-seated idealism, or a core set of moral values that he just can't bring himself to embrace. He is, ultimately, a "tragic villain" or an "anti-villain" if you will.A tragic hero is, loosely speaking, a character with any number of heroic characteristics who faces his subtle, hidden fatal flaw, and succumbs to it. Much death and destruction follows. An anti-hero (again, loosely) is a character with all the trappings of a villain, but who does the right thing in the end.
Sandor is neither of those things. In fact, he's the opposite: a tragic villain, or an anti-villain. He manages to escape his massive and obvious fatal flaw (fire) only to fail by bits and pieces while inadvertently doing the right thing all along and against his expressed ideas. He saves Sansa Stark... but wouldn't he just like to.... But she's an innocent as maybe he once was, so he doesn't. He wants to ransom Arya Stark, but winds up protecting her and enabling her escape from the Lanasters.
And the whole time, he can't really face that he's doing right things for wrong reasons. Tragic villainy is warped idealism, and that has a certain charm, even if we recognize, intellectually, that doesn't make a lot of sense.
I will agree with Gary. As a character.. we can appreciate Sandor. We can even root for him to find that better man that is within him.. But that doesn't make him relationship material.It is a very simple test. Would you want him with your mom? Your sister? Your daughter? If the answer is no.. (which it really should be unless you have major issues yourself).. then why would you ever want him to be with Sansa or anyone in GRRM's world?
Beyond that, Matthew.. I made no assumptions. He almost rapes her. Period. That is how the scene reads. That is how Sansa even interprets it. The very fact that he 'chooses not to' means he almost did... lol.
I would also say he does not 'love' Sansa.. and would go so far as to say that Sandor doesn't even really know what love is.. He has so much baggage that he would make a counselor rich helping him through half his issues.
Not everyone in a story has to have a happy ending. This is GRRM we are talking about..
I don't think the people expect the 'Happily ever after' with Sansan, because, as you said, this is GRRM we're talking about. We're just talking about how Sandor and Sansa evoke emotional responses in each other. The hound feels the need to protect the girl, and now that she is separated from him, Sansa does think back to how she always felt safe when he was near. Brute or not, he would never have harmed her, and that is something she knew.
Shawn wrote: "I will agree with Gary. As a character.. we can appreciate Sandor. We can even root for him to find that better man that is within him.. But that doesn't make him relationship material.It is ..."
Yes you did, and you've made it yet again. You think he intends to rape her based on the fact that Sansa feared this and because he tells Arya later that he should have. The scene only reads like this because its told from Sansa's point of view. The fact that he could have without consequence but didn't would indicate that he didn't intend to. The way the scene reads is that of a man who is drunken and lost, and of a girl who is frightened. Drawing absolute conclusions from that makes little sense.
And of course Sandor has issues, he's been horribly abused by his brother, treated like a second son by his father, and treated like an animal by the Lannisters for his entire professional life. But just because someone has issues doesn't mean they don't know what love is and are incapable of it. You're substituting moral judgment for evidence here and that hardly seems fair.
Now I'm a little curious, not counting the times The Hound talked of rape while trying to anger or intimidate people, had he ever actually raped anyone? As far as I remember, he didn't even seem to buy whores, and he definitely had to have had the funds to do so. I think he might have been averse to whores because they can't pretend to not find him ugly, and a someone who was brutalized before, I think he at least subconsciously finds rape repugnant.Also, one mustn't forget that he rescued her from being raped when he easily could have let it happen since his first job was to protect Joffrey. I still do disagree that he even considered raping her. I do however think that he was lashing out in anger at her for being too stupid to get away when she had the chance and for making him feel a softness that was alien to him. His demanding a SONG of all things, cementing my opinion. He could have demanded what many others would have. I think he wanted to punish her and scare the crap out of her.
And though I agree with Iris in that Sansa evoked an emotional response in him, I also agree with Shawn in that he is/ was probably too psychologically damaged to recognize what those emotions are.
Either way, it's fun to theorize on what could have happened. I can still hope that Tyrion gets his HEA (not with Sansa, he deserves someone smarter and better) and Arya gets some revenge.
We see the scene. It reads as a rape scene. No. We do not know what is in his head. But his intentions aren't what are important. It is the victim's perception of what is happening. (with sexual harassment.. perception of actions is more important than intention) You can justify it however you want.. He was in her room, drunk, had a knife to her throat, and the girl -- the important one for how SHE feels -- felt worried about being raped. There are no assumptions there. It is in the text. You even posted the text.Also.. he tells Arya that he should have. Assuming he is lying there, when the truth works just as well -- and is far more likely, is the assumption.
The fact that he didn't do it gives more credibility to Gary's theory of him being an anti-villain.. he does good despite his intentions.
I am also not substituting moral judgement for evidence. The evidence is in the text. He has issues. His relationship with Sansa and Arya is at best slightly less abusive than he is with others. You want to redeem him when he really hasn't earned it. He has potential... but he hasn't done much with it yet. (I will even admit that I want to see what might come of him) but you are underestimating the kind of trust and love issues he would have because of his past. I feel sorry for any woman that ends up with someone like that. It screams domestic violence.
Shawn wrote: "We see the scene. It reads as a rape scene. No. We do not know what is in his head. But his intentions aren't what are important. It is the victim's perception of what is happening. (with sexu..."Actually, what's in his head IS important. If he doesn't intend to rape his victim, and doesn't, it doesn't make sense to say he's guilty of it. And since we're addressing the issue of rape here, which is an act, it makes no sense to compare that to sexual harassment, which is all about perception.
And what "truth" are you referring to? Are you claiming that the possibility that he intended to rape her is more likely? If so, then you're going being assumptions here, you're presuming in the extreme. Otherwise, please clarify, I'm not sure what you speak of.
And no, the fact that he did not rape her does not show that he does good despite his intentions. I think you've misread Gary's post entirely if you think this is what he meant. If anything, it shows that his intentions are not villainous. He talks a good game, being cynical and acting like a brutish villain. But when the chips are down, he keeps doing the right thing. He saves Sansa from being raped and beaten in King's Landing, he saves Arya from being murdered.
You keep claiming the proof is in the text, but you only have the text from Sansa's point of view and are not giving any credence to the fact that he walked away, or the fact that he prevented bad things from happening time and time again. So really, it sounds more to me like you're condemning him unfairly than that I am trying to redeem him.
Oh, and for the last time, I am NOT arguing for them being a couple! I am against any such notion of that. The only thing I am contesting is your notion that he wanted to rape her. I'm also taking issue with you imposing modern morality on him, which also makes little sense.
They are both very similar.Both deal with the uninvited actions of one person impacting another. Sexual Harassment can also easily lead to rape.
If you do x -- regardless of your intentions -- and it is interpreted by the person you are doing it to as y instead of x, then you are the problem, not them. Especially if they didn't ask you to do it, and didn't want you to do it, and tried to get away from you while you were doing it.
You want to argue this all day long.. when it is really simple. (this is all based upon the morals of the story FYI.. nothing modern about it):
He was in her room at night, uninvited. He made inappropriate demands of her. He made her fear for her safety. He made her fear for her body. He held a knife to her throat so that she wouldn't cry out... and then later used it to encourage her to sing. All of that screams as rape.
If you were Sansa in that situation, you wouldn't walk away going.. huh... yeah.. maybe he is a good guy after all. To try to justify it into anything else.. is honestly pretty sickening.
No, he didn't rape her.. but a lot of rape victims will tell you the sexual portion isn't the hardest part to get past, it is the ripping away of control.. and that he definitely did. I am not trying to split hairs here, but rape is more than just the guy sexually assaulting someone.. and even referring to purely sexual rape, he was close enough that if anyone had come in (hence preventing her from crying out) that even by the morals of the story people wouldn't have been okay with it.
Based on her perception of the event.. she felt like she narrowly avoided being raped. That is good enough for me. I am not going to make assumptions beyond that. Because her perception, as the one in the situation, is what is important. His intentions don't matter at all.
It isn't an assumption to believe him when he says something. It is taking him at face value. To see a lie there, to want to see a lie there to make him a better character, is the assumption. If you want to classify that as 'assuming' then anytime you listen to anything anyone says you are assuming.. so then we all assume all the time.. wooo! its fun!
I think you put way too much good into Sandor. And no.. walking away doesn't excuse all the other things he did do. And preventing bad things doesn't make him a good man. It was him doing his job. You are again.. building up this fantasy that Sandor is this great guy deep down. I see him as a guy.. that is fucked up.. that is trying to find a way to get away from the shithole his life has put him in.. He might want to be a better person.. but he is who he is. There is no unfair condemning.. but he doesn't get a pass either.
Shawn wrote: "He was in her room at night, uninvited. He made inappropriate demands of her. He made her fear for her safety. He made her fear for her body. He held a knife to her throat so that she wouldn't cry out... and then later used it to encourage her to sing. All of that screams as rape."Technically, I think it'd be classified as a sexual assault or sexual battery. (Depending on the terminology and definitions in any particular jurisdiction.) It is the threat of rape that makes it "sexual" there rather than just "assault and battery" but generally there has to be some sort of penetrative act for it to be rape.
That's a legal/intellectual distinction, of course, but it is an important aspect of the character in this case. Why can't he bring himself to do it, even though he later expressly says he should have? He'd just saved her from a mob with that exact intent. I suspect the reason is that Sandor relates his own scarring by his brother to that kind of violence. So, even though he expressly says later that he should have, he's not psychologically there... but he's struggling with it.
You know, it occurs to me that there's a comparison to be made between Sandor and the Batman villain Two-Face in more than a few ways. That scene could have gone either way. Flip a coin.
Shawn wrote: "They are both very similar.Both deal with the uninvited actions of one person impacting another. Sexual Harassment can also easily lead to rape.
If you do x -- regardless of your intentions -- ..."
No one is attempting to justify his action, Shawn. I am contesting your interpretation of Sandor's intentions, which you are basing entirely on your own moral judgments of the man and not his actions or the text. And yes, you are basing this on modern interpretations and not the morals of the text.
I say this because sexual harassment is a non-existent entity in the story. And we can go round and round about intentions versus interpretation, but that's irrelevant since the entire basis of your argument is that he easily could have done it. This is not based on anything in the scene, just your own interpretation of it and what can be concluded about his character. But since we can't agree on that, discussion is moot.
And it seems odd you'd say others are seeing too much good in him or are trying to absolve him when you're seeing the absolute worst in him and refuse to be open to any discussion on the point. Again and again, you've said that your word is the final word on it and is based solely in fact. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but believing it doesn't make it an irrefutable fact.
But we're just going around in circles here and its become pointless. Think what you want about him and claim it's based on the text, period.
I think the main deal here is that both os them provoke emotional responses on the other, and why is that? I beleive, like someone said earlier that the Hound is too emotionally battered to think straight, to allow himself to feel something for someone else - he sees himself as damaged goods, and the brutality that his brother did to him scarred for life: he thinks he is a killing machine, and not good for anything else. But then, he struggles with ambivalent beahviour, a sense to protect that girl, to ptotect Arya, despite his worst wishes.Sansa, on the other hand, who is all about love and knights and the sutff also finds herself baffled for feeling secure around this man, that horrifies her both phisically and psycologicaly. But he protected her against the mob, not doubt! If it were for Joff, she would become like Lollys and passed around some 50 men.
Relationship material? Nah, no way. But the fact that they both respond to one another is funny and warm, i think.
I am basing it ONLY upon the text. Sansa fears he wants a kiss. She closes her eyes and hopes it doesnt hurt and ends quickly. Those are signs of rape. I am not sure if you are just that out of touch or if you just refuse to see that from her perspective, rape is a huge possibility and something she feels like she is about to endure.Damn man.. you babble on about how I am putting my modern morals into the story.. when I am giving you specific, within the story, examples to prove to you that it isn't just 'my' morals that scream that what he did was wrong.
Beyond that.. by the morals of the story.. No one likes the hound. At all. Some tolerate him.. but no one likes him. they all think he is a bad dude. You keep wanting him to not be. You are the one infusing him with something outside. Not me.
Sexual harassment is existent within the story. perhaps not as a legal definition.. but it exists and rape does as well, and they as a society do react to it. Especially between class differences. Don't act like they don't. He wouldn't have prevented her from crying out if it had been a non-issue.
You are so focused on being right that he had no intention of raping her.. that you refuse to admit that you have no fucking clue what he intended. Because Martin never tells us. All we have is what Sansa's viewpoint gives us.. and she is afraid of being raped.. and it is her viewpoint that matters.. what he intends doesn't matter at all.
Read what I have written. I don't see nothing but bad in him. But I don't excuse the bad away either like you are doing. Learn to read bud.
Also.. just to toss additional fire onto this ;) One of Sandor's more popular quotes is "Hounds will die for you, but never lie to you" I can't remember off hand Sandor being much of a liar in general. But you are so quick to assume that he had to be lying to Arya.
You are right though. You want to ignore the text and any possibility of a rape.. so there really isn't a point in continuing the conversation with you.
'Lying' is a strong word. We've said he spoke out of anger to her. Out of desperation. You distort things in those states. So to say he was 'lying' to Arya there is a bit harsh. Maybe in that moment when he was speaking to her he thought he should have done it, but in the moment where he was shut up in that little room with Sansa he felt he shouldn't do it. Hell, we don't even know if that particular thought crossed his mind then...
Shawn wrote: "I am basing it ONLY upon the text. Sansa fears he wants a kiss. She closes her eyes and hopes it doesnt hurt and ends quickly. Those are signs of rape. I am not sure if you are just that out o..."Okay, you keep claiming in one breath that you're basing your arguments on the text. But you also admit here that you see no good in this man and that's your stance. I already knew this latter part, it's obvious that this is your opinion in a nutshell and you're not willing to entertain any debate on that. So why then do you contradict yourself by claiming you are basing it on fact? Is it mere arrogance, or the knee-jerk defense of all people who like to claim they are only speaking the truth?
And it's ironic you'd talk about knowing his intentions when it is you who has not only discounted Sandor's intentions by saying they're irrelevant, and then assuming what they were by saying he was telling the truth when he told Arya he "should have raped her". Which is it? You're not only inconsistent, you're being hypocritical by saying I've got a closed mind when it's clear you're the one who doesn't care what others think.
You've also categorically ignored that I'm only taking issue with your own broad-based assumptions and that we actually agree on the fact that he's a terrible match for Sansa. You've said over and over that they are a bad couple in your arguments to me, never noticing that we don't disagree on this point.
And sexual harassment may be happening in the story, but that in no way supports your claim that you're basing your opinions on the morals implied in the text. Rape is an act that is clear and unambiguous, despite what rapists try to claim. Sexual harassment is all about perception, about comfort and reception. And our understanding of it emerges out of our modern sensibility of professional behavior. So saying you're getting it from the text is ridiculous.
But if you want to keep going on with your condemnation to the point that you start dropping f-bombs and being childish, then you've effectively become useless here. Perhaps you'd be more comfortable in a Youtube comments section?
I love how you ignore half my posts. especially all the various parts where I explicitly say I don't think he is all bad. Reading helps in text conversations. Try it sometime.The truth is the text. If I refer to the text and point out specifics... in the text.. there is no other truth. The text is the only thing that matters because anything else is pure conjecture.
I don't say I know his intentions. I said that the perception of Sansa, who is the one we are viewing through, shows that she is afraid of being raped. We have no clue what is going on in Sandor's head.. and it doesn't matter. His actions made Sansa think she was about to be raped. That is what matters. Also, later, the guy who rarely -- if ever -- lies, tells Arya bluntly that he should have raped Sansa when he had the chance. It doesn't matter if he was saying it to get Arya to act. He doesn't seem the type to lie even to have her finish him.
I am very consistent. You just want to paint Sandor clean of ever having wanting to rape Sansa. You can't even admit that the scene reads as a rape scene -- especially from the almost victim's viewpoint.
I have listened to the other viewpoint. That he didn't 'intend' to rape her.. though that is backed up by very little.. Only one thing supports it and that is the fact that the sexual assault doesn't end with actual penetration. And yes, I will give you that does help your opinion -- especially if you use a very limited definition of rape.. but the way he reacts to her, and abruptly leaves.. says that he changes his mind during the assault. We again, have no idea what is going through his head. But all his actions, up until the point she sings, screams of rape about to happen. If you can't see that.. I don't know what to tell you bud.
Also, the only other thing you have to go on.. is that you want to assume that the hound, who rarely -- if ever -- lies.. was lying to Arya to get her to act. That is pure assumption. Especially when it goes against Sandor's personality.
The comments about sansa and sandor are not just to you bud. other people are commenting in the thread. Perhaps I need to make that more clear. sorry.
You also seem to be confused. When I talk about sexual harassment, I was pointing out why Sansa might feel she is about to get raped. I was not referring to any legal standing within the aSoFaI. And you clearly don't know anything about sexual harassment if you think that women have only figured it out in 'modern times'... Rape is not always clear and unambiguous.. It isn't always as simple as asking if there was penetration.. and sexual assault and sexual harassment are nothing new either.
Also, f-bombs when used correctly, serve to emphasize what is said. To cry about that, and then turn around make your own insults is funny. But hey man. Its okay. Your feelings were hurt or something.. and even though you said you were done.. here you are again.
Yomarly wrote: "SanSan
(??"
It's the 'shipper' name for Sansa and Sandor. 'Sansan', because they both have San in their name, get it?
To anyone who may be interested in this topic:http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?...
Plenty of in-depth analysis of the text and lots of discussion about character development.
Holly wrote: "To anyone who may be interested in this topic:http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?...
Plenty of in-depth analysis of the text and lots of discussi..."
Oh yes, I LOVE the analyses on that site. And thanks for posting the link. I was trying to find the perfect thread to share to support my perspective, and this is among the best.
Julia wrote: "Please, no "SanSan", no "shipping". This is an adult book, please refrain from talking like a 12-year-old (get enough of that crap in the youth section).Moving on, this is a good topic. I do like..."
Um wow that was rude. She has a right to ship couples if she wants. And it is not childish. What is childish is making fun of people who ship.
I however don't ship them. I ship her with Edric Storm. He has all the qualities Sansa is looking for and can be the Prince Charming she wants.
Iris wrote: "Yes! That's what I want (and believe will) happen. Everyone thinks Sansa is stupid and useless, but being the perpetual damsel in distress is a very powerful thing in literature and film, and she'l..."Yes! Sadly every discussion about Sansa seems to end in her being patronized. *sigh*
It's hard not to believe that they do have can connection. In the ASOS when Sansa is at the Fingers she has a connection with and Old dog that barks when the singer tries to come on to her and force himself on her but she hears a voice that at first she thinks that it is The Hound coming to rescue her but it's just one of Littlefingers people but yet she was hoping that it was the Hound because she says he can't be here or is he. All sign continuously point to a deep connection between them I hope that they do but this is GOT so who knows just my observation. Love reading these books!!! So good they are!
Charles wrote: "It's hard not to believe that they do have can connection. In the ASOS when Sansa is at the Fingers she has a connection with and Old dog that barks when the singer tries to come on to her and forc..."It would be an odd partnership but not an unwelcome one from the fandom. I really wish George R.R. Martin would hurry up and finish The Winds of Winter!
Ellen wrote: "There is a connection with the Starks being wolves and the Cleanges being dogs. It has been presented to GRRM that Sandor (since his sigil was a dog) was a replacement for Lady after she died. Howe..."When did he state that? That was my preferred theory as well. Since they have this very weird relationship, that gets interpreted by so many people so many different ways. I always thought this was an interesting theory and would explain a lot imo
Iris wrote: "Actually, I don't think that she and he will be together. And personally I want her to work things out with Tyrion. It will give Tyrion a much deserved reward (in that she is the prize of the North..."Yeah, but then there is this thing where Tyrion molested her on their wedding night, when she was just 13 years old. If it has to be a creepy older man than better the hound. And "giving" her to Tyrion as a reward that he deserves- that's just gross- sorry she' s still a human being. And he doesn't deserve her. You treating her like an object.
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