To Kill a Mockingbird
discussion
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Dear Naam, if you had an opinion based on anything other than relativism, I'd debate you. As you have no thoughts outside your own narcissistic realm, I'll move on to T.T, nobody is going to attack you. I think people who respond strongest to TKAM respond to its Courtroom Drama aspects. It is a big favorite among lawyers or rather, people with Juris Doctorate degrees. I personally have no issue whether one likes or dislikes a piece of material. Those are just individual feelings that we all have unless we have a persecution complex and think it all revolves around us. Its brilliance, for me, lies in its Courtroom scenes, which not everyone understands, which is fine. We all have material we don't respond to; that does not change its greatness one way or the other and is totally distinct from how we feel about it. I Noted before, I may not be able to make it through say, Moonstruck or Amedeus. At the same time, I can step out of myself and see other's reactions to it and understand it's merit lies in things I don't fully understand (Amadeus and Opera and Classical Music)
Also, pay no attention to Naami who is simply trying to use you to support her silly position that if a few people on a website claim they don't like or damn with feint praise a particular piece of art work, such statements bears relevance to anything outside those people's feelings. As if to say, if we start talking about how awful and sexist "The Godfather" is, Francis Coppola and Al Pacino will have to give back Oscars and money and the works are diminished. And frankly, overwhelming, as to any piece of art, is again a personal feeling. But certainly the best way for a piece of art to be overwhelming as a feeling is to speak directly as possible to another's life. Tough to happen if you don't fully understand the material itself.
So as long as you start from the premise that every great piece of art has had some detractors, you'll be sane and fine to understand the difference between a few people's feelings and opinions and reality. As the greeks said, there's the way some people want things to be and the way things really are. The world has already given "To Kill A Mockingbird" a fifty year standing ovation, nobody is gonna mind or notice if a few don't bother to stand.
Finally, if you're looking for TKAM to fill in your understanding of that time period in America's Southeast, sue your school district as they have greatly failed you
Mark, you are wonderfully predictable. Kind'a like my remote. Press, respond. I realize that something about me activates you greatly. It is quite evident. Breathe. I am not here to persecute you or disregard history's great moments or to threaten your self-perceived superior understanding of all things literary, cinematic, historical and so on.
It seems you take almost anything I write quite personally. Have you considered that what you see as narcissism is painted by your own brush and influenced by your mirror?
Relax (if you so choose or are capable of doing so)--I do not intend (nor ever have wanted to) to start a petition for return of Prizes, Oscars, and the like. They are deserved for what they were given, regardless of personal opinion.
Opinions which for some intractable reason seems to trigger you. Oddly, it seems that some other women's reactions did that to you (cheer-leading practice? Really???).
I'm so very sorry for that.
Take good care.
You remain full of sound of fury signifying nothing. Two days I tried to get you to offer a single idea and you simply have none but a paragraph about the effect you perceive you have on me. So I guess you're right, no evidence of narcissism there. You're blind as a bat.And to be fair, yes, Cheerleading would involve listening to others which you're too self obsessed for.
So that wouldn't apply to you. I love and respect opinions. I just can't stand stupid ones by people who refuse to admit when they don't know a subject well.
And don't listen or respond to simple logic or factual challenges placed directly before them
Thomas wrote: "In plain and simple terms the book is a masterpiece. To suggest it is even remotely uninspiring is sad."I agree !
Mark wrote: "Apparently, the success of To Kill A Mockingbird made Capote quite jealous and ruined his, up that point, lifelong friendship with Ms. Lee"Ms lee helped him do the research for his book In Cold Blood so I don't believe his jealousy ruined their friendship.
Check your sources. They certainly said so in the Documentary "Hey Boo" as it was at this time that her book came out and in the movie Infamous there are scenes where you see the two of them falling apart and him saying at the screening of the then recently released movie's premiers, he "didn't see what all the fuss was about."
The Friendship of Harper Lee and Truman CapoteNelle Harper Lee and Truman Capote became friends in the early 1930s as kindergarteners in Monroeville, Alabama. They lived next door to each other: Capote with aunts and uncles, Lee with her parents and three siblings. From the start they loved reading and recognized in each other "an apartness," as Capote later expressed it. When Lee's father gave them an old Underwood typewriter, they began writing original stories. Although Capote moved to New York City in the third grade to join his mother and stepfather, he returned to Monroeville most summers, eventually providing the inspiration for Dill in To Kill a Mockingbird.
FROM THE TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD WEBSITE
http://www.neabigread.org/books/mocki...
In 1948 Capote published his first novel, Other Voices, Other Rooms. Around that time, Lee quit law school and joined Capote in New York to work at becoming a writer, too. Years of menial jobs followed until To Kill a Mockingbird was ready for publication. Capote read the manuscript and made editorial suggestions. She, in her turn, accompanied him to Kansas to help research In Cold Blood.
After To Kill a Mockingbird was published, Capote resented Lee's success. He could have tried harder to dispel baseless rumors that the novel was as much his work as hers. Their friendship continued during the 1960s and '70s, but Capote's drug and alcohol abuse strained the relationship. Later he would stop publishing and sink into self-parody, sponging off high society and making endless rounds of the talk-show circuit. When Capote died in 1984, Lee confided to friends that she hadn't heard from him in years.
"Kindness, I've discovered, is everything in life."Isaac Bashevis Singer
Chris wrote: "This entire thread is blasphemy!!"Took a brave one to start this. :)
I'm with you, Elaine.
Agreed, but can't we delve deeper into these books than just are they good or not? Its such sophmoric debate over books that have already been wildly successful and debate real issues that take thought and facts
I felt there was humor throughout the book. Sometimes I just had to chuckle. The image of Scout fighting in the school yard and their continual efforts to get the neighbor to come out. The Halloween party at school. and then the boy comes to visit and he is quite odd. She is quite sharp tongued for sure. I came to this book late and read twice and enjoyed it more the 2nd time.
Nora wrote: "Chris wrote: "This entire thread is blasphemy!!"Took a brave one to start this. :)"
Yes. I completely agree, Nora.
Especially as not everyone puts kindness and respect to others onto their compass. Sadly.
Nonetheless, this thread--and this website as a whole--is more than one person's monopoly of discussion by bullying or trying to belittle those one does not like.
There is room to allow all manner of opinions. Even those that may seem 'blasphemous.'
Now who's obsessed w/ who? Its never anything truly personal at all, but one gets frustrated when one's efforts to elucidate thoughts and arguments fall on deaf ears with no interest in actual discussion of a books details or facts but in simply restressing an expression of relativism. While one would never mean to hurt a fellow reader, its possible to step out of boundaries in hopes clarity of position
Apropos humor, one of my favorite quotes:"I think I'll be a clown when I get grown […] There ain't one thing in this world I can do about folks except laugh, so I'm gonna join the circus and laugh my head off."
"You got it backwards, Dill," said Jem. "Clowns are sad, it's folks that laugh at them."
"Well I'm gonna be a new kind of clown. I'm gonna stand in the middle of the ring and laugh at the folks." (22.60-64)
Na'ami, truth is, you personally are obviously adorable and educated, but you frustrate by your refusal to engage in factual and textual analysis which for me is the only way to discuss a book. I drown trying to tread water. You kept making generalized concepts and refusing to express any reasoning behind it. I am sure I went too far in trying to draw u out and for that I apologize
Nothing you did deserved that
Mark wrote: "Na'ami, truth is, you personally are obviously adorable and educated, but you frustrate by your refusal to engage in factual and textual analysis which for me is the only way to discuss a book. I d..."It is Na'ama, not Na'ami, BTW.
Apology accepted.
Maybe part of your frustration could be in what is for you "the only way to discuss a book"--this may not be the only way for others ... with some finding generalized concepts and discussion acceptable (and not a sign of foolishness or dumbness or narcissism...).
Either way, I am glad for a more civilized conversation.
Yeah, I kinda had that realization amid writing that sentence. Years ago, on a double date to see Adaptation we came out and the other guy and I started to break doen the movie and have what for me is a typical discussion when his date started to freak out and exclaimed " Why Cant We Just Say We Liked It?" it was all too foreign for her. For he and I, it was typical to our backgrounds and expected. It was tanamount to asking us to eat corn held vertical in an up and down Fashion. He and I sneaked off later and discussed it behind her back but yeah, not everyone does that
hmm... I think I actually kind'a wanna' try now to eat corn held vertically in and up and down fashion...:)
Sounds interesting. Messy, but interesting.
Probably good for brain preservation, too ... along the lines of brushing your teeth with the non-dominant hand or putting your shoes on non-routine leg first.
Adaptation--that was one odd movie. Liked it (in a general way). Not sure I'd have long discussions about it, though. I think it won academy awards and golden globe as well as British Academy stuff.
I was forced to read this book for school in 8th grade by a terrible Lit teacher(I swear I'm not exaggerating). I've read a lot of books for school, and I liked very few of them. I eventually decided "I don't like any books I'm forced to read at school". I just really don't enjoy the way teachers try to have us pick apart every little detail of the books that we read. I want to read a book and simply enjoy it without over-analyzing it.With that said I'm not totally sure whether I despised this book because I read it at school or because I just flat out didn't like it
I actually chuckled with the "blasphemous" comment. It was tongue-in-cheek, I felt. We each filter books thru our own experiences, therefore each story touches (or not) differently. I did not read TKAM in school...wonder how I got away with that? Our youngest daughter said it was her FAV, so I tried it and have read twice.
Na'ama wrote: ""Kindness, I've discovered, is everything in life."Isaac Bashevis Singer"
good trail to follow.
Mark wrote: "The Friendship of Harper Lee and Truman CapoteNelle Harper Lee and Truman Capote became friends in the early 1930s as kindergarteners in Monroeville, Alabama. They lived next door to each other: ..."
"Dill" I couldn't remember the name. Lee created such a vivid picture of him. What was the line, when they unexpectedly meet him? Didn't he say, "I can read ."? and Scout and Jem were quite unimpressed.
Abby wrote: "I was forced to read this book for school in 8th grade by a terrible Lit teacher(I swear I'm not exaggerating). I've read a lot of books for school, and I liked very few of them. I eventually decid..."Abby, I see a new thread here: "Books we were forced to read." For me: Canterbury Tales...hated it and did not like Red Pony.
Na'ama wrote: "Apropos humor, one of my favorite quotes:"I think I'll be a clown when I get grown […] There ain't one thing in this world I can do about folks except laugh, so I'm gonna join the circus and laug..."
T wrote: "For one, I will agree with you Michael.
That's what I liked about character Scout...She got directly to a point and often I sat up straighter and thot "whoa, that's right." I also loved her realtionship with Jem. OH, and rolling down the road in the tire.....just recalled that. FUNny, unless one is in the tire.
I am providing myself as a fresh target by saying this, but nevertheless, provide I will: I do not think ..."
I, too, read that Capote became jealous of Lee's success. Difficult to avoid that feeling, I believe, but he was not one to temper his comments. As his friend, that had to hurt Ms. Lee. I really loved the character Dill and could see TC as an inspiration.
Mark wrote: "Now who's obsessed w/ who? Its never anything truly personal at all, but one gets frustrated when one's efforts to elucidate thoughts and arguments fall on deaf ears with no interest in actual disc..."Are the ears really deaf or are the efforts to share too loud? Course, I have to admit when I love a book I feel strongly. Actually, I think this is a great discussion from such a different angle.
Hey Boo, was very interesting followup. That her book was such an unexpected huge hit and prize winner; how could TC not become jealous?friendship with Ms. Lee"
Ms lee helped him do the research for his b..."
Na'ama wrote: "Mark, you are wonderfully predictable. Kind'a like my remote. Press, respond. I realize that something about me activates you greatly. It is quite evident. Breathe. I am not here to persecute you..."
Nora wrote: "Na'ama wrote: "Apropos humor, one of my favorite quotes:
"Kinda like my remote..press, respond." Good one. Had to laugh.
"I think I'll be a clown when I get grown […] There ain't one thing in this world I can do about folks except laugh, so I'm gonna join the ..."
Nora wrote: "Na'ama wrote: "Apropos humor, one of my favorite quotes:
"I think I'll be a clown when I get grown […] There ain't one thing in this world I can do about folks except laugh, so I'm gonna join the ..."
Na'ama wrote: "Hi Mariana, Yes, I would be curious about what happened to Scout later in life, too.
Isn't this what makes much of literature a journey? You read and make pictures in your mind, form relationshi..."
OHmy, what a great idea. What happened to Scout in later life? Did she grow up to be a clown? A talented writer could make a new book w/ this premise. Intriguing. Now, I'm trying to come up with a career for Scout: well, this will take time.
Na'ama wrote: "Hi Mariana,
Yes, I would be curious about what happened to Scout later in life, too.
Isn't this what makes much of literature a journey? You read and make pictures in your mind, form relationshi..."
Michael wrote: "Just finsihed this book. Don't know why it took me so long to pick this up and read it, but now that I finally have, I enjoyed it throughly. It will take awhile for all the nuances to work into m..."Thumbs UP.
Na'ama wrote: "Mark, try to get over yourself. You don't like what I say--that's fine. You get so riled up about it that you feel the need to keep putting me down (if that makes you feel taller, go for it, I kno..."
"a perpetual market" mmm. Never thot of it that way; however, I believe books that are used in Lit classes must have truth, skill, and writing to inspire to be favored by teachers/schools.
Moz15 wrote: "I agree with Chris, it is blasphemy to not 'get' this great work. While it may be pedestrian compared to Faulkner or O'Connor, it is a true 'coming of age' novelwith great characters. The race iss..."
With ya, on this!
Na'ama wrote: "Elaine, I think that this is where literature becomes like any other art--a matter of opinion and view--not everyone likes the same paintings, and some may find a painting a masterpiece while other..."I believe that at the time Harper Lee wrote this book, it was a brave stand to take and a presentation not seen prior to that. Other books add to America's race issues: Black Like Me, writings of Fredrick Douglas, books about Freedom Riders and Soldiers Don't Cry ( I think that's the title of book about little black girl who walked into Alabama school at 6yrs of age...
Can anyone think of a better Courtroom Drama?
Nora wrote: "Mark wrote: "Now who's obsessed w/ who? Its never anything truly personal at all, but one gets frustrated when one's efforts to elucidate thoughts and arguments fall on deaf ears with no interest i..."I may have overstated my position, much in the way, the Texas University Tower Sniper did.
TX Tower Sniper. Wow, there's some history. We've always had crazies.
I actually like this internet book club.
No, subtlety is undervalued.
You're not the only one. I just didn't have the same effect on the book as other seem to be, but then again I had to read it during freshman year of high school for the first time. If it were under different circumstances I may have like it a bit more but not much. I thought the book was ok, but that's about it.
Michael, I think that there are some teachers who can ruin books in how they try to teach them (try, being the operative word here)--some of them dissect the book to death, or have a specific way of viewing the book that does not allow for other interpretations or does not let the students form their own imagery of the story and how it makes THEM feel. Sometimes teachers slow down an already slow story, and make it dull and tedious. Even the best work can be corrupted by bad teaching, or too-early-reading (though at least the latter can be remedied by re-reading the work later in life).I've had marvelous teachers for Camus' "The Plague", for "Madam Bovary", for "Old man and the Sea", for the works of Moliere, for "Uncle Tom's Cabin" and for "Oliver Twist", "1984", "Animal Farm", "Lord of the Flies" and "Fountainhead." I still remember those and have re-read them (well, not "lord of the flies"--once was plenty enough... ;))
I've had less marvelous teachers for "War and Peace" for "Moby Dick" and for Austin's works. I never did like those as much after.
Luckily, we were taught a wide variety of literature, from around the world, from varied languages of origin. So maybe there was something for everyone there.
To Kill A Mockingbird was not part of my school's literature requirements, so I don't know if it would've been among the better taught or lesser ones...
Jenny, I respect your opinion. I do. but please, rather than generalities, can you or anyone else give us specifics. Its just that on a sight dedicated to literature, writing requires specificity and I've yet to hear a single person who had problems with this novel communicate what those problems were with any specificity. this isn't American Banstand, we're not gonna judge you nor are we looking for particular answers; just something to discuss. Like, say this were the book A SeparatePeace. in that book, theere was a particular relationship of note. Some people thought it was one type of relationship, others thought not.
It would just be so nice if we could talk about the plot structure character or motifs of a book beyond "It had a nice beat and was easy to dance to"
Anyone? Please
Last night, SNL ran a hilarious news bit about the original review of Lincoln's Gettysburg Address. The reviewer felt very underwhelmed by the speech, then when onto attack Kennedy's Inauguration, MLK's "I Have A Dream" and Jesus's "Sermon On The Mount" where he took aim at Jesus's fan base of "prostitutes on one Sid and lepers on the other,". I recommend everyone hear view as it applies well. M
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Whether others agree with your review of the book or not, there is room (or at least ought to be) for all readers' opinions.
The original query itself shows that there are those who may have found the book to be important, even good, but not overwhelming.
I gave the book 4 stars--I really liked it, but did not necessarily love it. I recognize the importance of it, and good writing, but I did not find it to be perfection. Nor need it be so in order to be a book that highlighted part of US history in a meaningful time and way.
Reviews of books need not reflect what others think is the 'right' way to review it (whatever their needs reflect), but what YOU thought and felt and experienced reading it and your impressions of it.
I agree about Scout--probably the strongest and most compelling character in the book for me, though Atticus comes very close second.
I know people who grew up in that area, some in close proximity in time and experience to what the book touches on. The views in the South are still evolving in quite a few places, and contrary to some people's idealistic view of our educational system, there are many schools where the history of the US--especially that of post-slavery segregation, fear and degradation--are only superficially taught and in the moralistic, idealistic flair you mentioned. TKAM is certainly a book that can be used as part of a comprehensive look at the US's history and the foundation of some social and cultural perceptions and characterizations that continue to this day. It may not be the most compelling to everyone, but it is still a good book--by now an institution, almost--with important messages.
The movie's quite good, too. Though personally I prefer the book to the movie.
In any event, regarding views on this website--some may try and bulldozer their way to shut down any opinions other than their own, but bullish does not wise or truly knowing make.
Take good care!