To Kill a Mockingbird
discussion
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As unusual as it sounds, I actually disagree with the view this comes down to opinion. Books are not paintings. Some paintings take hundreds of years before they find appreciation, thats not true of books. Its all politically correct and nice but I do think if you don't see what's terrific about "To Kill A Mockingbird" with all its awards and sales and reviews and its sustained relevance, perhaps the problemisn't the books but yours. That's reality, deal w/it
Elaine, Mayella was no villian. She was a victim, a pathetic victim of her father's abuse. I don't see how she comes even close to being as strong a character as Atticus Finch in anyones world
Hi Mark, You disagree that it is a matter of opinion yet you place your own opinion quite strongly. I would say that maybe another reason that some do not find "To Kill a Mockingbird" to be as distinctively supreme as you do, may be because much of what it paints (sorry for the pun, I know you don't much care for painting reference here...), is a perspective that holds relevance to some cultures but not for others. You might be surprised but the US's culture is not universal. The themes in that book are not universal either, even if parts of them can be related to other cultures and have some importance. It is a good book, don't get me wrong. I never said it was not. I'd even recommend it. However, I just do not think it is as spectacular as you think (and it seems there are quite a few of us who agree). That is reality, too.(Na'ama Yehuda, author "Outlawed Hope")
Yes, it is a very American novel. But the fact that several fools on an internet web site "don't get it" doesn't quite measure a sneeze to the Pulitzer Prize For Literature, The Academy Award, The Presidential Medal of Freedom, The Brotherhood Award for the National Conference of Christian and Jews, and being voted The Greatest Novel of All Time according to the British Telegraph and uh, 150 million copies sold. Perhaps if you were a lawyer or understood the US Justice system a little better I might take more credence in your opinion. As it is, noting the above, it comes down to who cares what you think? Though I can't wait to hear your take on how "The Godfather" and "Schindler's List" are just hype too.
Finally, there are no issues in "To Kill A Mockinbird " that do not apply cultures throughout thr world unless the reader lacks the wisdom to see its application. You don't have to be southern or black to understand its heart. You may have to be wise to discern its greatness but that I cannot help you with
Finally, pu-leez. You show me a culture where injustice doesn't bear relevance and issues of the law and rape and rights to fair trials are not relevant or where there are no disenfranchised and no poor and no lawyers and no lawyer's children and no issues and I'll show you a culture thats bereft, needs change and has nothing to teach the world. That does not apply to our culture and 90 percent of the civilized world.
So no, The Da Vinci Code and Sycamore Road are good books, To Kill A Mockingbird is a timeless world renowned classic. Read it, Learn it, Live it.Dummy
I guess there is nothing more to say if this is the level of discourse you stoop to, calling those who don't agree with you fools or lacking wisdom or assuming they don't know anything about anything (without knowing anything about THEM, mind you). I respect your view, but you seem to have no respect for mine. I never said it was an inconsequential book, or badly written. Yet you seem to take the view that it could ONLY be seen as greatness incarnate with no room for any other perception. That can come across quite narrow minded, is that your intention?
I could share my take on other novels with you, but it seems you are not interested in actual discussion, only in people who already agree with you and can echo your own views. That, to me, is an intelligent conversation stopper.
Its no longer a debate, ITS FACT. The book didn't just get published, didnt just win every award it was up for, didn't just sell 150 million copies and get taught in every us school district since its publication some 50 years ago to be open for a contrived debate. Wise people recognize greatness; Should we debate Michael Jordan's greatness? Da Vinci's? Bear Bryant? Michelangelo? Paul Newman? Beethoven? Joe Dimaggio? Jonas Salk? Steve Jobs? Jerry Rice? The Beatles? Bono? Muhammad Ali?So if I "don't get" these people's greatness, are you saying it changes their greatness?
Sorry thats just dumb dumb. There are artists and works that reach a pantheon of greatness where debate over their artistic value ceases and To Kill A Mockingbird is beyond any doubt a member of that Pantheon.
So there is no debate and your take is just dumb dumb
I wasn't exactly overwhelmed. I thought it was really slow at first; there was definitely a build-up until the end. The real action started towards the middle.
Mariana, I hear you. Just comes to show, that not everyone has the same response to a book. Even a good book. What did you like the most about it?
You argue like an ape with pop culture ideas not backed by facts. The entire free world has already disagreed with you, dummy; You really are not a very bright girl.
and I'm only calling you a fool because you clearly are one. You're response to factual evidence is, well, we all have our opinions, but if there is a Court it would be a Court of experts where you lose:Pulitzer Prize. Academy Award. Public Opinion you lose again: 150 Million copies sold, Brit Telegraph lists it as greatest novel OF ALL TIME; In fact the only place/court where this stupid conversation is heard is on this dumb web site where you make your inane arguments and perhaps in mental institutions. You know nothing other than the sound of your own typical useless banter. Give me facts to make it better. Or at least discuss the book's complexity other than a typical stupid teenager you sound like saying well we all have different opinions. So lame.
Say anything new besides that dumb argument. A least Mariana says it feels like a slow start to her; she's totally wrong, but at least it has veritable thoughts
Every time you try to argue any facts, they are absurd -- doesn't cross cultures? C'mon. What else? The truth is everything you've thrown out in desperation I've demonstrated to be false. So please, make a real argument. So far you are absolutely pathetic with facts as I've heard none yet. Certainly not credible ones.I am the one interested in reasonable discussion, but all I get from you is well I didn't like it so much.
That's not a thought, that's a feeling. You call yourself a writer, go a little deeper into the book and earn some respect; so far you're vapid of real ideas.
Mark, try to get over yourself. You don't like what I say--that's fine. You get so riled up about it that you feel the need to keep putting me down (if that makes you feel taller, go for it, I know how tall I am without stepping on others)--that's not so fine, but it only reflects on you. And not too kindly. Can you try to have a conversation without calling the other person a fool or a dummy? It will help people take you more seriously.
If you've even bothered to look, I rated "To Kill a Mockingbird" at four stars. This is not exactly a negative review. I am not negating the facts that it got many awards (sale, by the way, are also affected by making a book mandatory for school-and by that basically creating a perpetual market, whether of appreciative reader or not, but that's a fact you may not like looking at). What I say is that not everyone who reads it connects with it, and that to some it feels slow, and some are underwhelmed with it.
Does everyone like Picasso's work? No. Some don't connect with it. Some think it is ugly looking. Some won't want it in their living room even if it is the work of a trend setter genius. The fact that not everyone likes Picasso's work (or appreciates certain songs, even of the Beatles--not all their songs speak the same to everyone), does not make Picasso less of a brilliant painter. Literature is also a matter of taste and connection. Not all of us connect to the same books, or literary voice, or the characters, or the pace. It is a fact, too.
The author may be brilliant. Even the book may be a unique contribution to mankind. It does not mean that everyone OUGHT to be bowled over by it or WILL be bowled over by it.
If that makes them all fools in your eyes, so be it, but it does not make their experience any less real or valid (or their IQ inherently less than yours--believe me, I know what I'm saying).
Whether you have respect for me or not says more about you than about me. Hopefully you can have a discussion without stooping to ad hominem attacks. If not, there really is nothing more to discuss.
You bore me because you keep returning to a sense of artistic and I guess aesthetic relativism. If that is your whole point, it's not worth typing the words. Who cares if everyone is smart enough to be bowled over by a great work. That bears no reflection on its greatness which is factually beyond debate. Yes, if you don't know know the story behind Michelangelo's David, you may not see the sculpture as great but should an artist or piece of work be punished by a viewer's ignorance just out of some sense of personal feeling? And certainly yes, if I met someone and we were discussing The Godfather, Schindler's List and To Kill a Mockingbird, The David or The Last Supper and they came back ho hum on any of them, I would doubt their intellect and their opinions on any other piece because the skill levels and impact on all of those are beyond reasonable debate. You still have never given me reasonable debate just talk about feelings and relativism. I would expect much more of an alleged writer. As Neil Simon once said -- You have to choose sides. Bowled over is an emotional reaction. Understanding greatness is wisdom. The first time one watches "The Insider" it is easy to not be bowled over, yes that's a feeling. But an enlightened viewer who understands the legal and political ramifications behind it understands why it's such a great and important film.
From your POV, I have never been bowled over by the following: Some Like It Hot, Moonstruck, A Clockwork Orange and have always been disgusted by Lolita. Those are my own personal feelings and that bears nothing on the greatness of those works. All you have to do is read the first few pages of Lolita to see how skilled its writer is ... and so on...
I am sorry you are bored. No one forces you to respond. If you do, it is probably because you are interested enough--or just enjoy picking a fight. What you consider 'reasonable debate' seems to be limited to your already perceived ideas and opinions, because you refuse to entertain (or even weigh as worthy) other views or perspectives. So maybe this is as deeply as you can go with this, and that is okay. We shall have to agree to disagree (or if you don't agree, that is your prerogative, as well). I think you confuse the notion of genius with liking the genius' product. I don't doubt the writer's facility with words, but I can appreciate not everyone being overwhelmed by the story. You seem to be taking an all-or-none view (i.e. that if someone has anything to say about To Kill a Mockingbird, other than to completely agree with you, than they are be definitions fools and ignorant). I don't think it has to be that way, and I don't agree with the 'sides' you claim that have to be chosen. I think we can have an and-and discussion. Maybe not everyone can.
Have a good Sunday and a happy new year, whatever you choose to read, admire, or dismiss.
Because you can't discuss facts, only feelings and you can't read carefully either. I gave you great examples which you simply chose to ignore. You keep talking about liking, "liking" has nothing to do with greatness. Again, overwhelmed is a feeling, nobody cares about that.
Until you get past that mental block, you'll sound like a silly school girl. And btw, YOU HAVEN'T SAID ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT TKAM. ALL YOU HAVE SAID IS YOUR FEELINGS. YOU HAVEN'T DISCUSSED A SINGLE FLAW WITH THE BOOK.
How can you be even a good writer if you can't read carefully?
Just finsihed this book. Don't know why it took me so long to pick this up and read it, but now that I finally have, I enjoyed it throughly. It will take awhile for all the nuances to work into my mind, but I have a feeling this book will be one of my two favorites, the other being A Separate Peace
How about this list of movies:Godfather, Schindler's List, Bad News Bears, Ordinary People, Cuckoo's Nest, The Sting, Annie Hall, Godfather 2, Kramer v. Kramer
I have always LOVED Ordinary People. I think Equus was quite remarkable as well.
Thanks for the tip, i've not seen but soon will
Na'ama wrote: "Mariana, I hear you. Just comes to show, that not everyone has the same response to a book. Even a good book. What did you like the most about it?"Hmm, well, probably how Dill and Scout felt about each other. There is no sequel, or way of knowing what happened after the end of the book; but I do hope that they got married eventually.
Hi Mariana, Yes, I would be curious about what happened to Scout later in life, too.
Isn't this what makes much of literature a journey? You read and make pictures in your mind, form relationships, of sorts, with the characters, build stories within a story about the story... :)
Whatever happened after the end can often be a mystery--sometimes solved by a sequel, sometimes living only in each of our imaginations.
I wasn't exactly overwhelmed by the story, personally, though I do think it takes a snapshot of a time in history in the South in a way that maybe many people--even in the US--did not know. Or would not today without reading about it. And "To Kill a Mockingbird" has become almost a standardized way of learning about it.
There are some other books that left a bigger impression on my life, but I am still glad I'd read it.
Well Dill was based on Truman Capote so I doubt much happened between he and Scout; But, Naami, Capote was mocked in a movie where he foolishly commented on TKAM's release and fanfare. " Frankly, I don't see what all the fuss's about."
PS: Naami you are way too self absorbed with what you feel about this book. Are you usually this narcisistic. A little more reading a little less blabbering unfounded opinions
Lastly, here in America we have places where we are given extensive information about the south and its racial issues. Theyre called schools
Itd be nice if you knew more about it
In plain and simple terms the book is a masterpiece. To suggest it is even remotely uninspiring is sad.
Thank You, Tom. Have you met Naami?
Mark wrote: "No?"In answer to the question: 'Was anyone else a bit underwhelmed by this book?'
Mark wrote: "Well Dill was based on Truman Capote so I doubt much happened between he and Scout; But, Naami, Capote was mocked in a movie where he foolishly commented on TKAM's release and fanfare. " Frankly,..."
Oh, way to crush my spirits.
I take it from your response you know who Truman Capote (In Cold Blood, Breakfast At Tiffany's) was and that he played a major role in Harper Lee's being able to finish and publish To Kill A Mockingbird and was a gay man.
Apparently, the success of To Kill A Mockingbird made Capote quite jealous and ruined his, up that point, lifelong friendship with Ms. Lee
If you saw the movie, you really see him as young Capote. It's a very faithful and well done adaptation. You'll love it
I think movie helps alot of people understand the book better. Maybe we can get our friend Naami to see it. :)
For one, I will agree with you Michael. It was not "a bit" either--I was very underwhelmed. I am providing myself as a fresh target by saying this, but nevertheless, provide I will: I do not think TKAM is a brilliant book. There is nothing really intellectually stimulating about it, compared to books I truly think are absolute masterpieces. However, I do see the appeal--the idealistic, heartwarming, nice, albeit moralistic appeal. And I also think Harper Lee did quite an amazing job of Scout--most authors tend to heavily distort children characters, but Harper Lee came close to reality. But I am afraid I cannot squeeze out anymore praises apart from this, and I do not at all like the factors I believe are "appealing" to others.
The Capote movie where he shows his jealousy of TKAM's success was called Infamous.
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A Separate Peace (other topics)
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Raised by Hand, Lifted by the Tides: A Southern Child's Memoir (other topics)A Separate Peace (other topics)
To Kill a Mockingbird (other topics)
with great characters. The race issues are only a subtext as part of a fascinating story of growing up in the South. Seeing life and especially Atticus through Scout's eyes is one of the most unique perspectives in literature.