Miévillians discussion
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Deathless
Catherynne M. Valente
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Deathless spoiler thread 3 : Chapters 10 to end of 13
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except that he is Koschei the Deathless. It turns out that even if someone steals his death he won't die--only his death does.
Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "except that he is Koschei the Deathless. It turns out that even if someone steals his death he won't die--only his death does."Nice observation. Yes, I think this is because what Valente does is not merely retelling, she weaves, and she weaves bits of this into bits of that in her very own tapestry. She's taken two different beings, being the Tsar of life, who holds dominion over life and therefore personifies Life itself, and made it/him also Koschei the Deathless, which is a nice play with meaning.
After all, how better to describe Life than being deathless?
I had considerable difficulty defining Buyan for myself, as well as accepting much of the character interplay as normal, until I read Chapter 12. As Buyan is not (quite) bounded by either space or time (or so it seems to me) and its inhabitants are not of the same nature as humans, it can be several, seemingly conflicting things at once, as stated so nicely by Volchya. It's a fascinating place, and I shall have to devote to it more time!
Next thread continues here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...I still had a lot to say on this thread, however! What did you guys think of the dynamic between Marya and Baba Yaga, and of how Marya handled the challenges?
There's also this constant theme of history repeating itself; which is also, I think, a reflection on how themes tend to repeat in Russian folktales.
The linguist Vladimir Propp, analysed 100 Russian Folktales and found 31 similar functions or themes that are present in all the folktales. (See his book: Morphology of the Folktale )
I don't really want to comment on history repeating itself until the final thread. In short, I think Valente cheats….The first two challenges are typical of pretty much any decent fairy tale. I have some qualms about the first—terrifying an innocent old lady—but I figure Naganya would probably be doing something similar if she wasn't helping Marya, anyway.
The third was mildly pornographic, and the first real example of that casual cruelty we discussed. When Marya realizes that Yaga has tricked her and she is being expected to retrieve Kochei's death, she doesn't hesitate. She spends no time at all thinking whether there's a way to save her own life without betraying Kochei: (view spoiler).
Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "I don't really want to comment on history repeating itself until the final thread. In short, I think Valente cheats….The first two challenges are typical of pretty much any decent fairy tale. I h..."
..but that's how it happens in the fairy tale! The person on the quest is supposed to kill them! Fairy tales often seem very crude to me in that there is indeed killing to be done. But then one must also take into account that these are not normal animals, but mythical ones.
After all, many myths rely on the hero 'tricking' a creature to a certain extent. Odysseus does it, Jason of the golden fleece does it, and the Norse gods Thor and Loki and even Odin does it, so this 'trickery' seems to be a very common theme in mythology, and indeed it has been pointed out that these myths and folk tales are indicative of a portrayal of humans' ability to be analytical and reflexive; they can think out ways to trick creatures who don't have the same capacity for adapting to a situation, or who are tricksy creatures in themselves...
Regarding Koschei: but I think she didn't realize it would be Koschei's death, because remember, she knows already that it would not kill him, because she'd been told the story of the other Jelenas and how it did not kill him when they fetched it. To me it appears as if she did it to all intents and purposes to get to marry Koschei, and indeed, she was quite surprised when she found out how upset Koschei was about her fetching the egg. She quite happily got ready for her wedding; so yeah, I don't think she'd meant to harm Koshei.I think her first cruelty towards him is a more common one between couples and has to do with what she does in the next section. (view spoiler)
Traveller wrote: "..but that's how it happens in the fairy tale!"Oh, absolutely. I'm just continuing the whole line of whether Marya is cruel.
Yes, she knows that stealing Koschei's death won't kill him, but she also knows that it will be a betrayal, because this is what all the Yelenas did. She has to be feeling, at this point, that Baba Yaga has simply short-circuited the whole courtship-marriage-betrayal-death-rebirth loop.
Marya does tend to betray Koschei, but then, on the other hand, Baba Yaga was going to literally cook her up and eat her if she failed... I think I'd be pretty scared of Baba Yaga at that point and I'd be quite desperate to stay on her good side, which is what I think Marya was trying to do. She seemed more afraid of Baba Yaga than of Koschei, and I'd say with good reason....and talking of being afraid of being eaten up... whatever her plan might have been to start with - remember, she didn't know what was in that cave before she entered it - once the dogs realized she was an impostor, they would surely not let her exit the cave alive if they could help it.
Also, Marya seems to feel a bit disgusted with the fact that she is the one who has to complete the quests to win the hand of her lover, while usually, she feels, it should be the male who has to complete the quest(s) to win the hand of the princess--but then granted; Marya is not a princess.. :P
Or is she? :-) The naming of Marya and her sisters is intriguing…
She's something more than a princess in that she's not a Yelena. Definitely going to be something different. To me the quests, and third quest most definitely, are a vehicle in Marya's evolution. She still seems rather bumbling in that some characters - like her witch friend - still just smile and point out how she still doesn't "get it" when it comes to life in Buyan. By the way, love the color analogies, magic of colors bit and how she had to become who she's not to complete the third quest. She's being trained to be selfish, not selfless, as Koschei began. But in a way, Baba Yaga does the best job of it. And it is father interesting Valente tends to be a bit pornographic in places isn't it? Pretty sure Palimpsest (can't do links on mobile) delves deeper into that realm and I'm planning the read it next year. In this book, it's a reminder of the stark contrast between reality and fairy tale perhaps. Or, an observation by the author that Marya's a character who's being forced down a path and that one of the strongest compulsive forces is the use or denial or sex ... Just an early thought having not finished the book.
Traveler ... I too found the remarks about why isn't it the prince doing the quests and proving his worth intriguing. Making fun of tired old gender stereotypes? (anybody seen the Goldieblox commercial?) Or since we have gun imps and mortar-pestles ridden like horses, maybe she's the prince and Koschei's the princess and it's just all great fun. :)
I also loved the 'colors' part, Allen! Baba Yaga's mortar and pestle is directly from the folklore though. I quote the first paragraph on Wikipedia's article on Baba Yaga:
"In Slavic folklore, Baba Yaga is a witch (or one of a trio of sisters of the same name) who appears as a deformed and/or ferocious-looking old, elderly woman.
Baba Yaga flies around in a mortar, wields a pestle, and dwells deep in the forest in a hut usually described as standing on chicken legs, her fence is usually decorated with human skulls. Baba Yaga may help or hinder those that encounter or seek her out and may play a maternal role and has associations with forest wildlife. Sometimes she frightens a hero (e.g., promises to eat him), but helps him if he is courageous.
According to Vladimir Propp's folktale morphology, Baba Yaga commonly appears as either a donor, villain, or may be altogether ambiguous. In many fairytales she kidnaps and eats children (usually roasts them in an oven).
When were you planning to read Palimpsest? I've been wanting to read it for over a year now, and already own the book. We could always work it in as a Meivillians read, shall we? O):D
Allen wrote: "To me the quests, and third quest most definitely, are a vehicle in Marya's evolution. She's being trained to be selfish, not selfless, as Koschei began. But in a way, Baba Yaga does the best job of it."That is an excellent observation, Allen. Her selfish (but necessary so - necessary for survival, and survival is the ultimate test in the 1942 Leningrad, after all!) act was what finally won Koschei over, when he delivers his fascinating speech about selfishness:
“I will tell you why. Because you are a demon, like me. And you do not care very much if other girls have suffered, because you want only what you want. You will kill dogs, and hound old women in the forest, and betray any soul if it means having what you desire, and that makes you wicked, and that makes you a sinner, and that makes you my wife.”
What I find amazing is that Marya silently disagrees, retaining some of her kind humanity with her silent protest:
“No. I do care. I will get what I desire by all the tricks I know, and what those girls in the factory desire, too. You are mostly right, my love. But still wrong.
She could say none of it, but she saved it in her chest, where it did not need to be spoken.”
Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "Traveller wrote: "..but that's how it happens in the fairy tale!"
Oh, absolutely. I'm just continuing the whole line of whether Marya is cruel.
Yes, she knows that stealing Koschei's death won't kill him, but she also knows that it will be a betrayal, because this is what all the Yelenas did."
I agree with Derek to a point. She knows exactly what she's doing, and she is cruel in a way that survival can be cruel - but she also knows that she has been mercilessly set up for this action, and really, as Traveller points out, by fairy tale (and common sense) logic she has little choice but to reply with cruelty to cruelty.
Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "Or is she? :-) The naming of Marya and her sisters is intriguing…"
Hmmm, until now I never even thought of that! Maria, Tatiana, Olga and Anna (which to Western ear may sound like it's similar to Anastasia). I wonder if it was done on purpose, or whether those are just some better known Russian names that spring to mind. Given that it's Valente writing, I'd bet on the former; where there's any actual significance to it besides being a literary 'Easter egg' - I'm not sure.
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To me, the end of this section is a milestone in this book: the end of a period of relative innocence, of Marya's reprieve from the cruelty of reality, of the illusion that magical fairytales are in any way safer than the world outside of the borders of Buyan. The murder of her friends for little else but the fact that they mean something for Marya, deliberately arranged in such a way that she can never mistake them for just casualties of war:
"And leaning against the rear wall of the magicians’ cafe, piled up with pale flowers and ribbons as though they were meant to be presents, rested Zemlehyed, mud trickling from a gash in his stony head, and Naganya, her iron jaw stove in, and Madame Lebedeva, a neat bullet hole blooming over her heart. She had painted her eyes red, of course, to match. Their dark stares tilted towards the dawn, but saw nothing.”
Yes, what I liked about Marya is that she always retained a speck of humanity;-clung to it even, you could say. I'm glad you guys are helping me to understand this novel, and illuminating the fine points for me. I admit that some aspects of it puzzled me. Thank you for sharing this journey.
For your convenience, I'll re-post the link to Thread 4: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
I agree. There seem to be many layers to it. I'm enjoying the fun on the face of it, as well as enjoying the other levels unveiled by reading it together. Nataliya ... I went back and highlighted that same speech by Koschei. :) And I see what you mean about Marya's fascinating comeback in her own head. What I hadn't really thought about was the need for survival - and survival as a theme, both fictionally and historically. Interesting.
But, Derek, still don't get how her sisters names are intriguing. I'm missing something there.
Allen wrote: "But, Derek, still don't get how her sisters names are intriguing. I'm missing something there."I'll take the liberty of replying here. The 4 daughters of the last Russian Tsar, Nicholas II, the one who was shot by the Bolsheviks, were named Olga, Tatiana, Maria and Anastasia. Very similar to the names of the four daughters in Marya's family. Coincidence? Who knows.
Nataliya wrote: "Allen wrote: "But, Derek, still don't get how her sisters names are intriguing. I'm missing something there."I'll take the liberty of replying here. The 4 daughters of the last Russian Tsar, Nich..."
Since you've gone there, I'll just point out that it's surely deliberate, because they all (including the Tsar) show up in Chapter 25.
Chapter 10 picks up just after Marya has had her charming meeting with Baba Yaga, and has realized that she wants to save all those Yelenas. :)
I thought this conversation between Naganya the gun imp and Marya was priceless:
"And I met the other men, too.”
“What other men?”
“The Ivans. Wherever there is a Yelena or a Vasilisa, there is an Ivan. Surely Babushka told you. About the bogatyrs? They aren’t too bright, usually, but bless me if they aren’t a handsome species. They’re always the youngest of three sons. They’re always the honest type, dumb as toenails but big in the trousers. And the Yelenas, they always fall in love and run off.
Ha ha. Dumb but handsome and big in the trousers, oi, oi!
Btw, if you guys paid any attention to the bits I posted about Koschei on the 'preparation' thread, you'll see how closely the Koschei story also follows the fairy tale in respect of Koschei's life or soul (or death) that is hidden separate from his body inside a needle, which is in an egg, which is in a duck, which is in a hare, which is in an iron chest (sometimes the chest is crystal and/or gold), which is buried under a green oak tree, which is on the island of Buyan in the ocean.
Anyone possessing the egg has Koschei in their power.
It reminds me of those little matryoshka dolls, also known as Russian nesting/nested dolls, those wooden dolls of decreasing size placed one inside the other.