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Jean's Charles Dickens challenge 2014-2015 (and maybe a little further ...)
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John
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Sep 20, 2014 03:40PM
Pedant's comment: tics or ticks? Yes, we were in Nice two shakes of a lamb's tail ago - in June.
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Hmm - they're both on google, but it looks as if yours is favoured, so I shall employ it in future! As someone who is a bit of a stickler myself, I thank you :D
Jean wrote: "LOL Jamie, that's a relief! Oh, just to clarify, it's not "All About Books" as a group who is doing this challenge - it's my personal one, which was initially for 2 years rather than just one, as..."
That's good to know. Thank you so much for all of the info! And to think that for about 2 years I basically used GR just to find book recommendations! There's so much here...it's great! Well, I made a commitment to myself to read all of Dickens (at least the major works) in order, and then go from there. So I'll be happy to join you. I'm on chapter 24 or so right now, I'm not sure how far behind you I am, but I'll get there. :) I very much enjoy your insight and feel that I am learning so much more than reading them on my own. Since I am reading the majority of these books for the first time I didn't want to read too much about them beforehand and have preconceived ideas, so this works out perfectly for me. Thank you again!
I agree, Jamie - it's great to read alongside others, although please do read at your own pace, of course. You may well streak ahead of me :)And I too originally just used Goodreads to browse the catalogue, and as a sort of filing system for my books. Then I started to write reviews and it all sort of exploded!
I've just finished my review for The Old Curiosity Shop. Here it is.
Another interesting titbit, the Small Servant aka "the Marchioness" aka Sophronia Sphynx. Why is she so illtreated by Sally Brass? It turns out that Dickens made their relationship far more explicit in his original version.(view spoiler)
Jean wrote: "Here's the statue of Charles Dickens and "Little Nell" in Phildelphia, dating from 1890"any monument, memorial or testimonial, whatever. I rest my claims to remembrance on my published works an..."
We saw this statue at Clark Park while on vacation last summer. Of course we had no idea about the controversy surrounding it at the time. The Dickens family seem pleased about the statue erected at his birthplace. It is all the price of fame I'm afraid.
Wow, I'd love to see it :) How far are you on now Jamie? Leslie's reading this one at the moment as well.
Oh good. I'm starting ch. 38. Just finished what has to be one of the saddest parts of the book...at least I hope it doesn't get much worse lol!
I found the middle part pretty grim Jamie. But chapter 38 contains one of my favourite paragraphs - the true heart of Dickens:"Oh! if those who rule the destinies of nations would but remember this - if they would but think how hard it is for the very poor to have engendered in their hearts, that love of home from which all domestic virtues spring, when they live in dense and squalid masses where social decency is lost, or rather never found - if they would but turn aside from the wide thoroughfares and great houses, and strive to improve the wretched dwellings in bye-ways where only Poverty may walk - many low roofs would point more truly to the sky, than the loftiest steeple that now rears proudly up from the midst of guilt, and crime, and horrible disease, to mock them by its contrast. In hollow voices from Workhouse, Hospital, and jail, this truth is preached from day to day, and has been proclaimed for years."
In fact I love this so much that I'll extract a little bit and upload it to add to the "Goodreads Old Curiosity Shop quotes" bank right now. Thank you!
Very true! Thomas Gradgrind and his facts - nothing else mattered...
Jean wrote: "Another interesting titbit, the Small Servant aka "the Marchioness" aka Sophronia Sphynx. Why is she so illtreated by Sally Brass? It turns out that Dickens made their relationship far more explici..."The abuse she endured is unimaginable. (view spoiler)
Hi Jean,Thankfully I finally finished the book today! From the title alone, it was one of Dickens' books that I was most looking forward to reading. It sounded like just the type of book I would love. Well, you know how much I struggled with this book right from the beginning, and it only got worse lol!
It is interesting how much we change as a society. TOCS was Dickens most popular work during his lifetime, but not nearly as popular today as some of his other books. Out of the 6 novels of his that I've read so far, it is my least favorite. I had to force myself to continue reading it mid chapter 1! If I wouldn't have made a commitment to myself to read all of his novels, I really wouldn't have continued. The quote that you uploaded, Jean, is as relevant today as it was in his day, and quite beautifully stated. However, the majority of the novel didn't jell for me.
Right to the very end, we are led to believe that (view spoiler)
There were many positive things about the book, but not enough to make it a very enjoyable read for me.
It was interesting, though, seeing how Dickens dealt with his deep grief over the loss of his beloved sister-in-law. This was probably very therapeutic for him. Perhaps knowing that this was so heartfelt, so deeply personal, his adoring public cherished it all the more.
Did his public know about his sister-in-law, though, Jamie? Jean will know, I think.
Jean?
John wrote: "Did his public know about his sister-in-law, though, Jamie? Jean will know, I think.
Jean?"
I really don't know, but find it interesting to think about. TOCS came out about two years after the loss, so it would seem like there was a good chance of it being public knowledge by that time.
Jamie - Sorry for the late reply!I do like your thoughts about Sally Brass. The fact that Charles Dickens altered his manuscript of The Old Curiosity Shop before publishing it in novel form, does imply that he had second thoughts about "the Marchioness" I think. The backstory I mentioned, which he originally wrote for her, as you say didn't really ring true with anything else in the book, so was probably just a loose end, that he might or might not have developed later on. When he found that he hadn't, and the serial was over, he just eliminated it.
He must have been keen to make many changes - if he'd only had the time, I should think! He didn't bother with the first three chapters, for instance, but I suspect you personally would have preferred it if he had. That seems the most likely interpretation of events. And then of course your theory as to (view spoiler) would still hold.
It's a shame you didn't enjoy the read though. I too expected to dislike this one, having remembered it as sentimental, but in fact I found far more to enjoy - the characterisation in particular. I think you found the characters a little exaggerated perhaps, but to me that was part of its fairytale charm. But I can't really put it any better than I did in my review (which I think you've already read :) ). No way would I say this novel is without faults! It does split opinion with modern audiences, and probably depends a lot on how much you are willing to forgive Dickens his extravagances and bluster in order to enjoy his quirks and wit!
Two main reasons that I forgive him:
1. It was serial fiction, with all the "quick fixes" that implies. We don't really expect our soap characters to hold up to close analysis.
2. He wrote so much, so fast. When I consider whether I would have preferred him to edit in a less slapdash way, I wonder if this would be at the expense of half his output. Would I lose one novel, to gain a slightly better other novel? And the answer for me is "No!" Jane Austen, a lot earlier, edited over and over again, apparently. Her novels are razor-sharp and superb. But there are only six that are any good.
As I say, I think this is a matter of preference, rather than a "right or wrong" issue. My favourite Dickens novels are the middle ones, but they do lose some of the wonderful humour (as far as I remember!!)
Yes, the public knew all about Mary Hogarth. They all lived together after all. But it's unlikely they knew to what extent Dickens was obsessed by her. He always presented himself as the archetypal respectable husband. He even justified himself years later, after Catherine had borne him 10 children, when he ordered a carpenter to build a barrier between their two parts of the bedroom. A little later Catherine was denied access to all but one of their children, just on Dickens's whim. The public forgave him an awful lot. Times were very different...
Jean - lovely reply to Jamie. I think the answer to Dickens' high speed, maybe flawed output is to read him fairly quickly too. One gets all the verve and gusto without wanting to nitpick (as some of us are wont to do!). But one has to concentrate as well in order not to miss the Bon mots which just tumble out.
Whatever suits you, I think, John. I think there probably are bits I read quickly, but then I slow right down to enjoy his "wordy" bits - and I'll stop and think for a bit (probably with a big smile on my face) too. So it doesn't end up very fast for me, whatever I do really. And that's just fine :)
Yes. I certainly do slow down, and re-read, too.
Oh so very interesting, Jean! and well worth the wait (which actually wasn't very long lol). I did try to look at it like you said, as more of a fairy tale, but it was maybe too much of a Grimm's Fairy Tale for me! :D Although I knew that Dickens published some of his novels as serials, it is a revelation to me that all of his novels were published that way, and that he wrote hurriedly, worrying about deadlines. In my mind I envisioned him writing a book and then publishing it as a serial. I never likened it to soap operas, but that is such an accurate comparison. How little I know of one who is so well-known and I thought somewhat familiar to me. He was actually maybe a bit of a marketing genius, too, well ahead of his time. :)
Funny you should make the Jane Austen comparison. I adore all six of her novels. A huge talent. When my daughter was born I purchased a lovely matching set of the complete works of JA for her. They are hidden away until her 13th birthday. I decided that I wouldn't read any Austen again until the two of us read them together lol! I'm really very sentimental and a bit sappy! Of course, my copies are all mismatched and worn but very well loved. Only a year to go! :D
Yes, you are completely right, it is definitely a matter of preference. I hope I didn't come across in any way implying something was "right or wrong." So far the first three novels are my favorites! ;)
Too shocking! Not allowed access to nine of her own children???? Was Quilp his alter ego?? Joking, joking!! :) Quite an eye opener.
Yes, John, very lovely! Jean is amazing! I try not to fault-find, but maybe I do tend to overanalyze things. The witticisms, cleverness, and characterizations of Dickens novels make them the enduring classics that have been enjoyed for nearly 200 years. It is unfortunate for me that I read the first three novels on my own. They were great reads, thoroughly enjoyable, very much the Dickens in my imagination. Trust me, I read this one as quickly as possible! ;)
Jamie - I too am analytical by nature and by career (degrees in economics, then 40 years as a government economic analyst, thankfully now retired), and by school education ('A'-Levels in English, French, German). But I try desperately not to overanalyse my reading. So, I don't get too involved in the detailed chapter-by-chapter discussions of books as they unfold. When I'm reading, the book is MINE, and for my imagination! OK afterwards, but not too academically for me now. I love the broader picture of the flow and development of literature over the centuries and decades.Thankfully, we're all different, and Goodreads has certainly widened my interests and perceptions.
The Old Curiosity Shop was published in 88 weekly parts between April 1840 and February 1841. I didn't actually set out the parts and their equivalents this time, although the previous novels have their original publications dates in this thread. I think we usually just read however many chapters we want, though, so it wasn't particularly useful to break it down into the original chunks.The serial was part of "Master Humphrey's Clock" - his own magazine which he also wrote features for, edited, and suggested and selected contributions from others writers such as Wilkie Collins and Elizabeth Gaskell. Dickens was never one to delegate! He was between 28 and 29 years old at this time.
Another thing happening in his life was that he was visiting his parents in Devon. He had bought them a house there, but they missed the London Life and wanted to be "allowed" back. His father (famously the inspiration for "Mr. Micawber" in David Copperfield) had persisted in borrowing money often using his son's famous name, and this became unbearably embarrassing for him. This was his solution.
Before the end of the serialisation, he had an eye to the next. So at the time he was in agonies over writing the scenes about Little Nell at the end, and claiming "Nobody shall miss her like I shall", he was also writing the beginning scenes of the very different, historical novel Barnaby Rudge.
Oh, and Walter, one of his sons was born in February!
How he juggled all this I have no idea...
I do understand and empathise with where you're both coming from. In real life, never mind reading, I've frequently been told not to "overanalyse" things, but it's in my nature. I hate the feeling that there's something there but I'm not understanding it. Never have been one to let things "wash over" me. (This saying has gone down in family history, as the defence of one particular head teacher, when I suggested that the children in her school were running riot. Shouldn't she take it in hand? But that was her disgraceful reply. I did not apply for the job...) And I know there are some readers who hate my analytical reviews, for instance, because it can spoil a novel for them to "pick it to pieces".And I too like to sit back and admire the "verve and gusto" (lovely, John!) of Dickens. So it's all a matter of degree, and mood, because one of the most enjoyable things about Goodreads is that it's not formal study! We can read what we want, when we want and how we want! Nobody to breathe down our necks :)
Maybe it's a question of age and experience? As we get older we can approach reading however we like. We do not have to do anything except have a gut reaction to our reading, but if we want to, we can analyse it to death. Plenty of critics do this with Dickens, and I suppose I do if something takes my fancy. I just don't expect there to be any "right answers".
A lot of the time his writing was so heavily influenced by his life, his beliefs, his personality and his hang-ups. Maybe more than some other writers, because he didn't iron it out. The reason I compared him with Jane Austen was because they are such polar opposites in this way!
How exciting, Jamie, your plans for reading the novels of Jane Austen together, with your teenage daughter, from beautiful editions. I think they are especially appealing classics for young girls, who tend to identify with the heroines. Then their additional depth becomes more apparent to experienced readers of both sexes. Chris (my husband) told me once that his English master at Grammar school said to him, "If you don't like Jane Austen, then read her when you get older." I think that was sound advice ;)
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What a great challenge. I'd love to do something like this myself sometime. The Old Curiosity Shop is actually one of my favourites, in spite of all the maudlin bits about Little Nell and her grandad - I love the minor characters, particularly Dick Swiveller and the Marchioness, and their relationship and how they manage to act out their difficult lives as if they were rich people in a fairy tale whilst also being quite aware that they aren't! I had no idea about the original version though.I'm also someone who loves to analyse, and I find it increases my enjoyment of a novel, and gives me a real sense of intimacy with the novel and the characters (so long as it's a good/interesting novel, that is! I find Dickens a delightfully quirky mix of truly dreadful and truly brilliant, but never boring, and always worth reading!). But I know a lot of people who love reading but deliberately didn't go on to study English literature at uni precisely because analysing ruins it for them. It's funny how we are all so different.
Jean, have you read Peter Ackroyd's biography of Dickens? I haven't yet, but I remember it being praised very highly in the 1990s, when it was written.
When I was at uni, we had to write an essay on Dickens, looking at the combination of fairy tale and realism - I looked at Oliver Twist and The Old Curiosity Shop for the essay, and found it an incredibly interesting perspective.
Jean - your reviews aren't over-analytical, they're just right. Fawn, fawn!Whereas the preface to the Penguin Classic (I think) edition of Dombey & Son that I finished a few weeks ago was so over the top, so over-intellectual, that if I'd read it before the book I'd never have started.
Jamie - Dickens, re Quilp, did suggest that his bad male characters had his own worst characteristics. And he really was disgraceful to his wife.
Alannah wrote: "I found a lovely photo of a statue of Charles Dickens and three of his great great great grandchildren taking a picture, now for the life of me I cannot find it."Is this the one you are looking for? It's a great shot!
http://www.onenewspage.co.uk/n/World/...
Isn't it? :) My comment 133 links to that Portsmouth statue too, and I talk about why it has taken until this year for any statue to be built of Dickens in his home country of England a couple of posts later.Hello Gail - I hope you'll join us for some of these reads? And yes! That is the definitive biography of Dickens in my view. It was ground-breaking at the time, because until then nobody had written a biography of a person which was also a detailed study of the culture. It's never been in Large Print, so I had to get someone to read it to me when it originally came out. All 1000-and-odd pages. (Guess who?! At least he enjoyed it as well, although he prefers Anthony Trollope really... :) )
LOL John...who wrote it?
I've been googling for the Ackroyd book, Jean (I'd always had in mind that I wanted to read it someday) and I can only find an abridged version - maybe the original is no longer in print. Although I imagine it must be in the library. I wonder if extra long books are less likely to be published in Large Print, because of how thick they would be. That's where ereaders are fantastic (although even this abridged version doesn't seem to be available as an ebook. Maybe it just wasn't popular with the general public - only with Dickens fans, I guess.).
But yes, I'd love to join you for some of the reads. What are you reading next? Or are you in the middle of a read? Sorry, I've wandered in in the middle of things (intrigued by the idea of a Dickens challenge!) and don't really know what's going on!
Jean - you're too sharp in picking me up on my flippant criticisms! Although still in Nice, I've managed, via Amazon Kindle free samples, to find that the intro was by Prof Andrew Sanders of Durham University. Reading it again, it's not so bad- indeed quite illuminating! I need to be more measured. Ta.
Gail - I explain my challenge in full in comment 1.Yes, only the shorter Dickens novels make it to Large Print. I do have David Copperfield in 2 volumes - bought at different times in different secondhand bookshops - you can guess how I pounced on the "other half", hoping to goodness it wasn't the part I'd already got! Tatty old copies from Canada, but nice big print :) I've read some Dickens novels as complete audio books, although I don't like them that way (John does, I think). And I want to read them all in print for this challenge, as I retain it a lot better.
The Old Curiosity Shop was a large print version for me, but the next one, Barnaby Rudge, will be a kindle. I had it as a talking book from the RNIB a few years ago, and I'm ashamed to say it put me to sleep... :( Before that though, I shall read a book about Dickens - yet to be decided - but probably The Invisible Woman by Claire Tomalin.
Yes, I remember the details for the full Acroyd bio are incorrect on Goodreads. No use alerting the librarians though as they are also incorrect on Amazon! I didn't bother pursuing it with Amazon, as the book itself is sitting on my shelves, but can tell you anything (such as the ISBN) if you do want to track it down. I think I mentioned this error in my review of it.
Gail, the Dickens biography that I read recently (listened to actually, Jean!) was a newish one by Clare (or Claire?) Tomalin, which had more detail about Dickens' treatment of his wife and children, and his terrible hypocrisy in this area.
I have the book you mean, Charles Dickens by Claire Tomalin too, in Large Print, sitting on my bookshelves. Since I also have another bio by Claire Tomalin, Thomas Hardy, she may well be pushing her publishers to make her books available in accessible formats. Did she read it herself, John? Some authors do, if it's a principle they're keen on.I'd more or less decided to read her novel first, partly because I've just seen the film, and partly to give me a break from straight bios of Dickens, as I've just read the Simon Callow one.
Analytical thinkers unite lol! I can definitely understand your desire to just read for the pure enjoyment of it, John, and give yourself a bit of a break. Congratulations on your retirement! And Jean, I second John's view on your reviews. :) And it's interesting, too, how we may be a combination of the two. While I may at times analyze (or overanalyze) literature, I am the opposite at art museums. My husband will analyze a piece of art to death lol, while I shush him and say, "I just like to let art flow over me." It ruins it for me if he goes on and on about a piece when I like quiet observation. But after I have enjoyed my moment, I may be willing to listen to him lol.So I have to toss my romanticized idea of Dickens out the window and accept that although he was a literary genius, he was barbaric in his personal life. What a paradox. He so clearly saw and fought the social inequalities of the poor and downtrodden, but chose to ignore/accept/enjoy his mistreatment, abuse really, of his own wife...sad sigh...To think he knew he was Quilpish!
Jean - it was narrated by the brilliant Alex Jennings, who narrated a great Tenant of Wildfell Hall. Also a sparkling Blackberry Wine (Joanne Harris) which I have listened to in the car three times. Apparently, he has done Oliver Twist too, although I read that one!I do prefer reading, but if one has to spend a few hours a day in the garden for a few consecutive days doing dull tasks, an audiobook is magic! Or for long car journeys too.
Jamie - thank you re retirement. Best thing I've done! Paintings - my second love. Used to work 10 mins from what is now Tate Britain, and went to lunchtime lectures three times a week for a few years. I was so upset when they reorganised the collections into themes, not chronology. I had words with the staff when they couldn't tell me where some of my favourites had gone.We're back from Nice tomorrow, staying in London for five days, and will see the Constable exhibition at the V&A, and visit Tate Britain, which is back in chronological order! I, too, like to look for myself, but like to know the general background within which the works were painted. Raphael and Rothko. As with, say, Defoe and Dickens.
Jamie - thank you re retirement. Best thing I've done! Paintings - my second love. Used to work 10 mins from what is now Tate Britain, and went to lunchtime lectures three times a week for a few years. I was so upset when they reorganised the collections into themes, not chronology. I had words with the staff when they couldn't tell me where some of my favourites had gone.We're back from Nice tomorrow, staying in London for five days, and will see the Constable exhibition at the V&A, and visit Tate Britain, which is back in chronological order! I, too, like to look for myself, but like to know the general background within which the works were painted. Raphael and Rothko. As with, say, Defoe and Dickens.
Jamie - thank you re retirement. Best thing I've done! Paintings - my second love. Used to work 10 mins from what is now Tate Britain, and went to lunchtime lectures three times a week for a few years. I was so upset when they reorganised the collections into themes, not chronology. I had words with the staff when they couldn't tell me where some of my favourites had gone.We're back from Nice tomorrow, staying in London for five days, and will see the Constable exhibition at the V&A, and visit Tate Britain, which is back in chronological order! I, too, like to look for myself, but like to know the general background within which the works were painted. Raphael and Rothko. As with, say, Defoe and Dickens.
Jean wrote: "Gail - I explain my challenge in full in comment 1...."Jean, ah yes, I had read comment 1 when I first found this thread, although I thought it was a challenge you were doing by yourself, and I didn't really understand how it worked. But I guess people can come and join you if they want. I will watch how it goes and figure it out. :-)
John, I saw the Tomalin biography when I was looking on Amazon. And it is in Kindle version too, which is my preferred format, so maybe I will read that one.
Gail - I too expected it to be a purely personal challenge, as technically that's what it is - it's in the personal challenge folder. But I am overjoyed that others join in, or drop in and out. It is so fruitful :)I'm not sure I can really see the resemblance to Dickens in this illustration of Quilp though...
I enjoy analysis! And with Dickens there's plenty to analyze. On our Reader's Review group, where we are working our way through all of Dickens (currently on Hard Times), we have at least two professors and I love to see what they add. On the other hand, someone reading Dickens for the first time can also make a great contribution to a group. I'm doing the Ulysses readalong and the commentary and notes have added a lot to my enjoyment. The Tomalin biography is very readable. Someone pointed out that we get upset when a celebrity's life doesn't match his work (a contemporary example would be Woody Allen, or several football players recently in the news) in a way that we wouldn't if we found out the builder of our house (for example) had treated his wife badly.
Yes we discussed this on another thread, I remember. My personal take is that I won't read an author of whom I strongly disapprove, if they are current, and I think I am adding to their profits by buying their books. To my mind that's no loss as there are so many authors I want to read! If they are dead, it makes no difference. I would have no compunction about reading Mein Kampf if I had the slightest inclination to, but will not read Orson Scott Card.
So I don't think their "celebrity" status makes any difference to me; it's a pragmatic approach rather than an emotional one. Perhaps there were others like me in Dickens's time, although everything we read seems to tell us that he was regarded with awe - rather like the Beatles in their heyday. And of course Queen Victoria liked The Old Curiosity Shop and loved the portrayal of Little Nell.
Just to echo the comments on the Tomalin biography- really well written and interesting
Yes, I'm looking forward to it Heather. She researches things so well too :)
John wrote: "Jamie - thank you re retirement. Best thing I've done! Paintings - my second love. Used to work 10 mins from what is now Tate Britain, and went to lunchtime lectures three times a week for a few ye..."Ah, a feast for the eye! Now that's the way to luncheon. :) We have several wonderful museums fairly close by, about an hour on a good day, but you can't beat 10 minutes! The Getty Center is very lovely and probably my favorite local museum...I've got to plan another trip! We don't get to go often enough, I'm afraid. So glad the Tate saw the error of their ways and put everything to rights. ;)
Jamie - thank you. We're off to Tate Britain this morning, then to the Victoria & Albert for the Constable exhibition. Lovely.Only been to USA once, to Washington. Loved the National Gallery of Art (?). But it was 25 years ago!
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