Children's Books discussion
Intros, Group Business, & Chat
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Group Changes Post-October 2013: New Ideas, Missing Threads, Reviving Clubs, etc.
Mod
I really like the idea of waiting until after the holidays to do many changes to the group, though. For one, it will be a very busy time for me and many other members, I'm sure. Also, I think it might be best to wait a little longer to do too much to the group as I imagine several more members (maybe even some frequently contributing members) will be leaving GoodReads in the coming weeks and it might make sense to wait until they leave so that there aren't more holes in the discussions?
In the meantime, I am thinking if one of you (Cheryl, Jane, Jasmine already indicated interest in reviving and leading the clubs) would like to volunteer to lead a group discussion, that could be a great compromise. You could select a book (maybe one that was a runner-up in a recent poll, or one that you feel especially passionate about?) We could put up notice about the book and pending discussion and have one for December and/or January? That way we don't have all the lead time of running a poll and such during the holidays.
That said, Cheryl and Jane, it sounds like you are especially passionate about getting the clubs started up again and I want you to know that you are absolutely free to start a group up separate from the Children's Book Group if you have the time and energy to do so now. I don't feel there is any "ownership" here, especially since we'd be starting over fresh as Chandra and Abigail deleted all the discussions from before. The thing I care about is having a place for people to discuss good books! So, I would be happy to post a notice about the club(s) moving to your new, independent group and I'm sure the devoted members of those clubs would follow you there. Perhaps with the Newbery Club it might even be a better idea to do something separate from Children's Book Group because then when people wanting Newbery-specific search on GR, they will find the group rather than it being hidden under the umbrella of Children's Book Group?
Just some ideas :-)
Thanks for these posts, Kathryn. Very helpful updates!
For those of us who have been in the children's book clubs for a long time, perhaps we can rebuild what our memories have filed. For the Newbery Club I don't think that would be difficult. Themes and book collections from the fiction and picture book groups can start up again where we left off? January sounds good to me. I still have the last book selections staring me in the face so I'll probably read those and feel complete with starting new and fresh next year. I am going to miss "the girls" but with Cheryl and you, Kathryn, I know our little groups will survive and mature again. Experience and knowledge is all that we need. And that, I know, this group has! Wishing all the best for the upcoming holidays, and I look forward to fun and excitement in 2014.
Mod
Tricia, were you all in the midst of reading books for October when the Fiction and Newbery clubs went away? I would be happy to post a new discussion topic for them, if so. Please let me know. I'm sorry for being so in the dark about it, but with looking after my baby boy I've only had time to keep up with my Picture Book Club this year.
If some of you were in the midst of reading for Oct and didn't get to discuss I think it would be great to provide a thread where you could do so.
Kathryn wrote: "Thanks, ladies!Tricia, were you all in the midst of reading books for October when the Fiction and Newbery clubs went away? I would be happy to post a new discussion topic for them, if so. Plea..."
In my TBR stack I had Alice, I Think for the fiction club. I also had Heart of a Samurai for the Newbery group. I am pretty sure these were the October readings. Maybe someone else out there can confirm or deny what I'm thinking!!!
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And thank you so much for all your kind words. I was so disappointed with what happened, losing so much, but so many of you are responding to a fresh start in such a positive way, it is really encouraging. I agree that we have what it takes to make the group shine anew! :-)
Mod
Tricia, were you all in the midst of reading books for October when the Fiction and Newbery clubs went away? I would be happy to post a new discussion topic for th..."
Alice, I Think was the selection for the fiction club, not sure about what the Newbery read was.
Remember the international club too, for those who are interested.And, Newbery is obviously easy to recreate if members remember what year the club was up to. Something in the 1930s??
Or, for January, those 3 clubs (fiction, international, Newbery) or those of interest, including new, could just start anew. New monthly books and discussion threads, and shelved books.
I'm still not ready to participate much; it's been a long time since I have in any group reads on Goodreads, but maybe eventually I will again. I used to be very active.
Mod
Thanks, Lisa. Yes, if anyone wants to revive the discussion for the International Club's October read, we can do that, too.
And if anyone is interested in leading that club again, feel welcome to step forward.
I'm looking forward to the new year ;-)
Mod
Thanks, Gundula and Tricia. I've got a thread going here:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Okay, here's the scoop according to me!! We did the 1933 Newbery Honor book Swift River and the award winner Young Fu of the Upper Yangtze. We had decided to rotate between the older Newbery award books and the new. Our last new one was Heart of a Samurai
October's Newbery was supposed to be Dark Emperor and Other Poems of the Night in September and Heart of a Samuraiin August. And Alice, I Think was the fiction club selection for October. There has not been a title selected for the international club for quite a few months. We certainly could start it up again, but there wasn't a book that we were supposed to be discussing that wasn't discussed.
And Kathryn, I also echo my thanks for your efforts to maintain such a positive atmosphere despite the changes and all of your hard work on keeping this group going.
Mod
I'd rather not start a brand-new group, because I do appreciate your dedication, Kathryn. (My thoughts about a new group were formed when I assumed that the missing mods had conferred with you.)
I realize I've not been checking in as often as a co-mod should - but I vow I will be more active if trusted with the responsibility. (I just need the nudge of motivation. :)
I totally agree that most* group activity would be better served if we wait until A. the dust settles and B. after the holiday season.
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'newbery' and we are the first group suggested. :)
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That did not work when it was tried previously. Basically, the group used to have a folder just for author promos but some (actually quite a number) of authors simply refused to post promos in the specific author folder, posting them instead wherever they thought their books would get or could get the most exposure.
Mod
Also, authors are getting more information about marketing now, than before. If they don't use the designated folder, it's def. willful, and a mod or co-mod can simply delete the message w/out taking time to send an educative note.
I think the idea is worthy of Kathryn's consideration, as she's the one running the group now.
Mod
Al..."
I am actually not against it, but if we do allow it, I think that it should not only be the moderators policing this (that if one sees an author promo anywhere but in the required folder to let Kathryn know as soon as possible).
Cheryl in CC NV wrote: "*most : I actually am not extra busy at all during the holidays. I'd be glad to start the Newbery gently now. My vision is to discuss Dark Emperor and Other Poems of the Night now and throughout ..."Yes, I forgot about Dark Emperor for our Newbery group. I think I was in my picture book mode, but it was definitely a Newbery book. What's your idea Cheryl? I think putting our ideas out there right now is good. Discussing Dark Emperor now (which I think I had already added a comment before it was eliminated) is good for November. That way we could count it as being completed for our Newbery read and move on. I'm ready for a new Newbery!
Mod
You could begin with a thread for Dark Emperor discussion and a thread to share your ideas with club members and get some feedback for shaping the club going forward into January. I think it's best that you confer with those most passionate about participating.
I am supportive of whatever the group wants for that. Admittedly, I never really participated in that club so I don't feel I should be the only one consulted ;-) But I appreciate your loyalty to the group and asking me before you started back up.
Mod
I was personally never against it if authors want to mention their book in an author promotion thread. I know many groups have something like this.
I also don't mind if authors want to mention their book in a relevant discussion (e.g., the themes/topics/categories discussions) as sometimes for more obscure topics it is the self-published or lesser-known titles that really fit.
What I do NOT want is "spamming" or when authors make such giant leaps to try and fit their title into a theme. That is, when it's obvious advertising and nothing that would actually benefit our members.
Thoughts??? I know that self-promotion was a problem before Abigail cracked down with the total ban, but I also feel it would be nice to give respectful authors a chance to share their work especially when it fits a subject members are seeking out already.
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Incidentally, I will have a Welcome folder and Introduce Yourselves thread up soon, once we sort out co-mods, etc. meanwhile, I'm so glad new members are feeling welcome to post here.
Personally, I don't like when the authors promote their books on say, a Newbery discussion. It's a distraction to me. I would rather there be a specific 'author promo' site which, if and when I was interested, I could search for new reading material there. I guess if I was an author trying to promote my book to the world, I might feel differently. So that's just where I stand right now. I'm very easily changed in my position if and when someone can point out a better perspective. :)
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What I meant was for a specific thread about a theme. For example, we had one post a few months ago where an author mentioned her book about Diwali in the Diwali thread. There are so few books about that subject I felt it was a shame to delete the post when some members might have been genuinely interested.
That said, if we have a policy of promoting only in the author promotion thread it certainly makes the enforcement easier to just delete any promotion found elsewhere.
One other thought, I also feel that there are so many ways around the "ban"--like creating a fake account, having a friend post a review, etc. At least if the author posts members can take it for what it is, and with a grain of salt.
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So whether it is author self-promotion or new clubs or whatever, now is your time to make your voice heard.
When I started my family, Abigail and Chandra knew I would pretty much only be able to keep up with my Picture Book Club and lend a hand with other co-mod duties, but I really have not had the time to be universally active in the group since last year. Nor will I going forward.
My goal with all this recent activity has been to keep the group alive and I welcome member input going forward.
And, yes, we will definitely need new mods to help since I am so limited with my involvement. I know Cheryl is coming aboard with the Newbery as her pet project. :-) Jane and/or Jasmine, are you still interested in helping? Taking up the Fiction Club? Anyone else? If more than one person is interested we could alternate leaders each month or perhaps have a younger readers Fiction Club and one for older readers?
Mod
Kathryn wrote: "I was actually going to open the author self-promotion up to group input, too. Since we are going there now, here goes:I was personally never against it if authors want to mention their book in ..."
I like what you've suggested here. I guess if the spamming gets out of control one could always change the policy again.
I don't mind either having a specific folder for authors to promote their books or having them add a title in threads about a specific topic or theme (such as the one you mentioned about Diwali). However, I can live with whatever the majority of the group wants. I agree that comments like that don't belong in the Newberry Club or in discussions about a specific title/group of titles. But I also understand that many have abused this in the past. So again, I am flexible. I am unable to help as a moderator...my life is just too busy right now to we that commitment, but I am so glad that this group is not going to "die" and that the great discussions here can continue.
Thanks for all you're doing, Kathryn, and those of you who are volunteering to help out here.So, I used to be very active in this group but haven't been for a long time, and while I'd like to be again, it might actually be quite a while. So my preferences shouldn't be given heavy weight.
I have really mixed feelings. I'm friends with some authors here, and I like supporting them. Some write children's books. In groups, I've seen authors' comments about their books contribute seamlessly to ongoing conversations and also make welcome introductions are the more interesting. Then, I've had the experience of authors coming into groups and spamming/posting about their books, and those are the only posts they ever post, and they're never genuine members of the group.
If author promotions are allowed, it's takes a fair amount of work on the part of moderators to nurture the former and manage the latter: message the poster, delete the comment, move the comment, delete the poster, give warnings, etc. etc. It can get really tiring.
I personally love contact with authors, and in some groups, some are also willing to do book giveaways within groups, which can be fun, but enough people take advantage of a lack of rules to sometimes make the group space very uncomfortable.
That said, I understand why Abigail eventually set a zero post rule. And in a group I co-mod, while every once in a while things get right on the border, the group is enhanced by author member participation, as long as the authors participate as readers as well as authors.
Just spouting off some impressions here. Not making recommendations.
Mod
So, I used to be very active in this group but haven't been for a long time, and while I'd like to be ..."
I think the only way to have author promotions not create a huge amount of extra work for the moderators, and remember that Kathryn is basically on her own at present (and it would still entail a quite a bit of work and probably daily monitoring) would be to ONLY allow author promotions (as long as the books being promoted are children's and young adult books) in one specific folder and to automatically delete any and all author promotions that don't appear in the proper folders (and eject the author, publisher etc. from the group is he/she does this repeatedly or if he/she gets argumentative or in any way verbally abusive). Of course this sounds a bit draconian, but otherwise the amount of extra work for Kathryn would be extraordinary (and the policy should obviously also be written both in the main group description and the group rules so that authors, publishers etc. would not be able to claim ignorance). It would still be lots of work and likely cause some friction because there will always be some individuals who simply refuse to play by the rules or think that group rules etc. don't matter or should not affect them.
I agree about author postings in the Newbery group (unless you're the author of the Newbery book in question! Sadly, none of my books has yet won a Newbery award!). But also agree that it would be nice to have a place where people could at least introduce themselves and their books. As an author I once posted a giveaway of one of my children's books in the "announcements" thread, thinking I was being helpful. I was deleted and scolded and felt absolutely awful for having unintentionally been a jerk to the group... then later someone was asking for recommendations for particular read-alouds for her 6-year-old for which one of my books would have been a perfect fit, but I dutifully did not say a word - and felt awful again, for not being able to help this woman!As someone who posts only occasionally here and won't be helping with administration, I absolutely support those of you who are more active in doing whatever you think is best or most manageable. I really appreciate that you're keeping this group running for all the rest of us and would never complain about any policy that you feel is necessary to keep things running smoothly. My two cents, however, is to give some sort of author thread another try. I know there have been problems, but I feel sure that most of us authors genuinely want to be part of this group, and that we're here not merely for self-promotion but because we do genuinely love books!
As an author, I have primarily lurked here in the threads. I like to keep up on the discussions, but I've been reluctant to participate because of the no-self-promotion rule. I'm not interested in blasting my book titles in the discussions, but what constitutes "self-promotion" seems to be a fluid definition and I'd rather say nothing than have something I say be construed as self-promotion and be banned for it. Some would consider my mentioning this here is an act of self-promotion, but I think it's relevant to the discussion. I can't say for sure if I would participate more if the rules were relaxed some, but I might feel more comfortable to do so. That being said, having a specific location where authors can list their books, make mention of new releases, special deals, or other things would be helpful for making the group aware that books by other members of the group may fit discussion categories and draw the author into the discussion without the author fearing that mentioning their book is self-promotion.
I also would like to lightly weigh in on this thread. I too am an author, have followed the discussions because I love children's books. For every book I write, I read thousands. I have found this thread to be unwelcoming, framing authors as exploitive, rather than lovers of books and promoters of life long reading.
Well, I am an author of children's and growed all the way up people books and support the one specific here only and nowhere else folder for self promotion. Many discussion groups I joined have become buried under an avalanche of "Look at my book!" I don't take part in those groups anymore. I really appreciate reading actual discussions of books here and look forward to new Newbery discussions next year.
Kathryn, Yes I am still interested in the fiction group. l just need more info. So, of you want and when you have time you may private message me. I actually have the reading list from the fiction group. This may be a good starting point. My only issue is that quite a few of the titles are om the older side. I look forward to hearing from you.
Kathryn, thank you for keeping an open dialogue. Who knew we had so many authors among us? I think an author folder would be nice to try again. Personally self promotion is obvious for what it is & if it isn't deleted by a moderator I don't think it is viewed for anything more than that.
I am still happy to be involved, please let me know how I can be of assistance. Also I sent a pm to Abigail and she deleted the previous fiction clubs list. I was disappointed as I know I and many others had contributed throughout the years.
I would be disappointed if active authorial promotion is allowed, and I would be much less likely to participate in this group if it is. What made this group valuable is that you could trust that the posts were not self-interested. I agree with Gundula that allowing authors to promote themselves in general threads will result in a huge amount of work for Kathryn and any other moderators, as there can be a huge gray area between a relevant post and spam, and each post would have to be considered carefully, whereas before the rule was clear cut, and did not require a careful consideration of each case.I was annoyed as anyone at the summary deletion of the groups, and can't approve of that, but I do find it ironic that the heart of the issue that resulted in Abigail and Chandra leaving was goodreads putting the interests of authors ahead of readers. And as soon as they're gone, we talk about opening the doors to allow authors to promote their books here. Discussions from which one carefully has to filter out the self-advertisements would have no value to me.
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Emily, that is definitely more than ironic. And personally, I would much rather have no author self promotion, period. I was just saying that if author promotion were to be allowed again, that the only way to do this would be to limit this to one folder and one folder only and to be absolutely draconian with regard to any and all author post that appear in any other folders (a very grudging acceptance of having author posts again). And frankly, having seen the problems that used to plague this group when author promotions were allowed (and only in one specific folder), with many authors blithely and knowingly posting their promotions, their spam wherever they felt it would get the most exposure (and often becoming downright nasty when admonished by the moderators), I actually also kind of think that even permitting authors to promote in one folder will more than likely cause similar issues and similar problems again.
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By opening this discussion, I certainly did not intend to offend group members who supported the ban, nor to try and commercialize the group. But the group is undergoing so many changes and as the topic was raised, I feel it is only fair to allow other points of view to be shared and considered as we regroup. It is good to see views from all sides being shared here.
I personally have viewed GoodReads as a place to learn about books that I hadn't heard I before -- to find a new "good read" -- and discuss them. The nature of publishing has changed so much over recent years with more self-published books and even with big publishers asking their authors to take on more marketing responsibilities due to budget cuts. Authors are looking for ways to share the news of their books, which they love, are proud of, and want to "shout from the rooftops". I think that reducing them all to mere advertisers looking to "sell" is a bit unfair (and has already made some feel unwelcome here, which is a shame). An author folder could make authors feel more welcome here and allow members interested in less well publicized new books to discover them. (I don't want to make authors the "bad guys" when it is thanks to them we can be readers in the first place!)
That said, I also don't want members to have to stumble through fly-by promotion in discussion threads or feel they are subjected to advertisement each time they check in.
Perhaps the best compromise, and easiest to manage, would be a folder for author promotion only and ban on promotion elsewhere.
I hope those who haven't yet shared their ideas will feel free to continue to weigh in and the new co-mods and I will take it all into consideration as we rebuild. Thank you all!
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I will be in touch with you both, and Cheryl, privately. Thanks for your continued interest!
Jane, I'm so excited you have the fiction list! Like Jasmine, I had contacted Abigail about the list and was so disappointed to find she had not saved it. Even if what you have is older, at least it will provide a starting point.
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I would like to made co-mod asap, so that I can make a Newbery folder for them.
As soon as I am co-mod I will be sure to check in more often. ;)
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Author promotion is welcome in their own folder, one thread per author (not per book). Plenty of reminders of rules in group description, welcome thread, etc. 'Relevant' in general threads is such a gray area I feel we'll have to firm about it - despite your example re' Diwali. That's my 2 cents.
Fwiw, I also belong to 'Great Middle-Grade Reads' and though they try to keep the group spam-free, with authors separate from readers, I still feel squicked sometimes, because the authors speak so often in their author voice ("Well, in my book, I handled that theme this way," kind of thing.)
Mod
I would like to made co-mod asap, so that I can make a Newbery folder for them.
As soon as I am ..."
I agree, if we are not firm and totally firm with regard to where authors are permitted to promote themselves and their work, it would be both confusing and give authors the idea that our rules are not set in stone and can be debated (which would likely just cause arguments as well as creating more work for the moderators).
Mod
For clarity's sake, I've gone ahead and created a folder so members can easily find all your excellent work in one place. It is currently called "The 'New' Newbery Club" but feel free to change that once you're on as official co-mod ;-)
Meanwhile, I encourage all our group members eager to participate in the Newbery Club to see Cheryl's vision for the club and/or discuss the current club read, Dark Emperor and Other Poems of the Night in the new folder. Enjoy!
And thank you so much for so swiftly reviving the club, Cheryl!
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A Caldecott group would be fun. If you think you would be able to coordinate the group, Cheryl, that would be terrific! I'm game.
Children's Books
Books mentioned in this topic
Abraham Lincoln (other topics)Animals of the Bible: A Picture Book (other topics)
Mei Li (other topics)
Dark Emperor & Other Poems of the Night (other topics)
Dark Emperor & Other Poems of the Night (other topics)
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Those of you who may have missed the discussions that happened in our Group Business thread in mid-October might be noticing some rather significant changes in the group, including the deletion of our Fiction, International and Newbery clubs; missing discussion threads; and the disappearance of co-mod Chandra (and lack of comments from co-mod Abigail).
Sadly, no, you are not imagining all this.
Due to the changes taking place at GoodReads, Chandra and Abigail did not feel they could remain and have chosen to delete their accounts and will no longer be part of the Children's Book Group. I'm sure I don't have to tell you what a huge loss this is to our group. They have been amazing over the years and brought so much to the discussions!
Unfortunately, when they left they decided to take the clubs they ran (as well as other discussion threads they started) with them. There was not very much notice about this and some members were quite unpleasantly surprised when they realized that all their own comments made in those discussion threads were also deleted. I wanted to let you hear the responses from Chandra and Abigail in their own words as they tried to explain their reasons. This was copied from the Group Business thread a few weeks ago before their departure from the group:
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From Chandra: "Hello all! Sorry it has taken a while for me to weigh in. I have been very busy with company and my daughter's violin recital. Anyway, I understand that many here are upset and bothered by all of the upheaval. I really truly do see your point of view. None of this is any fun and none of the decisions were reached lightly. However, my understanding is that once a member leaves goodreads *all* of their content goes with them - including comments, etc. There would be big gaping holes in many of the threads here - particularly in the groups that Abigail and I created and led - the fiction and Newbery clubs - making them virtually incomprehensible. However, I absolutely support anyone who wants to start a group elsewhere. I feel particularly bad leaving Kathryn behind to deal with the mess (and any backlash). I am still in the process of moving everything over to booklikes so I'll be around a bit to field any questions/concerns. I sincerely hope the group here can move on and that Kathryn won't have to deal with too much backlash."
From Abigail: "I am the one who has been deleting threads, after consultation with Chandra. We felt that leaving the group as is, with just Kathryn at the helm, would have been unmanageable. We also felt that, as creators of those book-clubs (and various other threads and folders), we wanted to take them down. There was some talk about turning this group into a Picture-Book Club only, but Kathryn prefers to leave up some general discussion as well.
"I can understand that this is an unpleasant experience - we are not enjoying it ourselves - but given the involvement of multiple moderators, one of whom is not leaving, we felt a piecemeal approach was better than deleting everything. Which, as Lisa mentions, is happening in some other groups.
"Like Chandra, I am sorry for the disappointment that many feel, at the deletion of book-clubs and folders. As Chandra noted, we felt that leaving them up, after a great deal of the content had been deleted anyway, would be counterproductive. Speaking now just for myself, and the clubs I ran, I also felt that, as personal projects of mine, that represented a great deal of my time and effort to create and maintain, I didn't want to leave them on goodreads, or for goodreads to profit from them.
"Hearing now from some of you, I can certainly see your point of view, and understand your feelings. I have been a member of groups in the past that were deleted, quite unexpectedly, and it certainly can be jarring. Despite that experience, I was not looking on group discussions in the same light as reviews (for instance), although obviously some feel differently.
"I will (again, like Chandra), be present for a few more days, as I finish transferring some final content to other sites. If anyone has any questions for me, please shoot me a PM. I wish all our members the best, and want to extend my heartfelt thanks to both Chandra and Kathryn, whose presence really made moderating this group a pleasure. I wish Kathryn the very best with the group, going forward." -- Abigail
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With all due respect to Chandra and Abigail and the amazing work they did here over the years, I want members to know that the decision to delete the clubs and threads was *not* unanimous and I had no control over what they took with them. While they had every right to take their own comments, I wish they had left the clubs in tact so that others could take over and that other member comments were not deleted.
However, what's done is done and I feel certain that we can rebuild a thriving group here. Already a few members have stepped forward about becoming co-mods and/or reviving the Newbery and Fiction clubs.
So, please stay tuned!