Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
Bulletin Board
>
Punctuation and parentheses...
message 1:
by
Amy
(last edited Oct 29, 2013 05:47PM)
(new)
Oct 29, 2013 05:35PM
So...I was taught that punctuation 'ALWAYS' goes inside parentheses. The professor was adamant (making certain that we all understood.) But I see it used all willy-nilly now. So I guess I am just wondering...is there a right or a wrong?
reply
|
flag
If the sentence starts inside, then it ends inside (and if it doesn't, it doesn't). (That's the only way it makes sense.)
I've always done the punctuation inside. I'll continue to do so.
According to The Elements of Style, punctuation should be done as Francis stated. Mignon Fogarty (Grammar Girl) says pretty much the same thing here:
http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/educ...
Francis, thank you! I have wondered about that. My highschool teacher taught us the opposite of Amy's, that punctuation ALWAYS goes outside the parentheses. (Of course, that was mainly stressed when we were doing research papers and having to do in-text citation).
You're welcome. :-)It's sadly inevitable that many teachers are confused about punctuation. :-(
I'm still learning...
I wondered this too, thanks for clarifying... sort of.
I guess it IS still unclear, A.L. But like Barbara, I will continue to punctuate inside. The practice is too heavily ingrained in me to change. Not to mention that the professor from the Editing In Journalism class might hunt me down and give me a good talking to!! Ha!
I have to disagree. If you do a search on that subject on the internet you will see that all of them say the same thing: Inside parentheses if the sentence starts inside, outside if not at the exception of (maybe?) things like that.I could understand if half of them would say one thing and the other half something else but it is not the case. Every grammarian cannot be wrong. Check everyone of these links and see for yourself.
https://www.google.com/#q=punctuation...
Basically, anything in parentheses is not part of the main text, it is an aside. You should be able to remove a ( ) pair and everything in between without altering the meaning of the text that includes it.Here's something I wrote in a blog post discussing dashes:
Where the dash is used for an aside - as an alternative to using parentheses (a handy way to avoid nesting parentheses, if nothing else) - then make sure the sentence still makes sense if the aside is removed (and, of course, this is equally necessary when using parentheses - also known as 'round brackets' - for an aside).
Remove the ( ) asides and you get:
Where the dash is used for an aside – as an alternative to using parentheses – then make sure the sentence still makes sense if the aside is removed.
The rules change for certain punctuation, also, depending on whether you're in the UK or the US. I hate the complications.
I'm with Lynda. and, that is why God made editors :)
Francis is definitely correct. If teachers were never wrong, the American education system would be a very different entity :).
My 70 year old father happened upon the ... And decided it made his emails look better. So now every sentence is divided by ... So emails read- hi...just got back to Florida...it was a long drive...your mom says...hello...give us a call...when you can..hope all is well...
I hope he never discovers the [ ]
Raymond wrote: "My 70 year old father happened upon the ... And decided it made his emails look better. So now every sentence is divided by ... So emails read- hi...just got back to Florida...it was a long drive..."
That's hilarious. I was once reading a novel where about a third of the way through the author discovered the very same thing. All of the sudden there were elipses(sp)all over the page for quite a few pages. That's why you always need someone else (better yet, five someones) to read your stuff before you make it public.
That cracked me up, too. I have a friend who loves the word "as" when she posts or emails. "We were making pies today. As we had too many apples. As our tree was overgrown this year."It's painful to read. As you'd imagine. ;)
@RA I purposefully didn't spell the E thing because I was too lazy to look it up lol @Lynda that is to funny, I remember when my daughter discovered literally and it literally showed up in every other sentence she spoke. And... as you'd imagine I can well imagine.
Hah! I know a couple people who talk that way, but for some reason, reading it seems worse.
Figuratively speaking, it literally drove me crazy
R.A. wrote: "Hah! I know a couple people who talk that way, but for some reason, reading it seems worse."It is! I think (in my friend's case, anyway) it's because she really doesn't speak that way. Not noticeably enough that it jumps out at you. But she does write that way, and I think it's because she's trying so hard to be proper about it.
Reminds me of The Oatmeal's poster about the proper use of "who" v. "whom." I'm not sure if I can post the link here, but I'll try. It discusses the use of "whom" adding class and a distinguished air to what you're saying, even if you're saying something really terrible.
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/who_vs_whom
Literally is one of those words...I realized I had a problem with 'realized'. My characters realized things constantly. I went back through and changed a lot of the 'realized' to 'discovered', 'understood', etc., as I thought if I had 'realized' in there too often, people would literally start smacking themselves (and then how would I feel?).
@RA - I have that same issue with realized. Also in the first draft my characters are always "trying" to do something instead of just doing it- I use the frequent word by count function in scrivener to find my favorite repeated verbs
Lynda wrote: "R.A. wrote: "Hah! I know a couple people who talk that way, but for some reason, reading it seems worse."It is! I think (in my friend's case, anyway) it's because she really doesn't speak that wa..."
Very nice. Loved the examples. Someone had fun.
In fiction writing do we really need to rewrite every sentence that ends in a preposition?
Raymond wrote: "In fiction writing do we really need to rewrite every sentence that ends in a preposition?"Then the world would be without classic phrases like 'give you a talking to' and 'let's get it on'.
Raymond wrote: "@RA - I have that same issue with realized. Also in the first draft my characters are always "trying" to do something instead of just doing it- I use the frequent word by count function in scrivene..."'At least' is another of my favorites.
I use "anyway" far too often in my email correspondence. And I love ellipses... but I know I overuse them... so I try to use them less. LOL I don't use them in my fiction writing at all unless someone is dying or out of breath and I need to show that there are, er, pauses between their words.Another thing my editor pointed out in my last book was that I definitely overuse "smile." My characters were always smiling. I had to go through and cut about 75% of those occurrences.
It's fun to hear about the various writing foibles that are other people's habits. :)
Oh, and things always look "almost as if" or people "seem to be" instead of just looking like or being in my rough drafts.This is why editing is important!!!!
Oh but I love "seem" almost as much as "like"- in some stories my characters do an awful lot of "nodding"...I also might be addicted to the use of quotes lol
Things happening 'suddenly' and people with 'wide eyes' or eyes that widen. I'm trying to think what else I have to watch for...Jenelle, at least your characters were happy. Some characters are always grunting or snorting.
Lynda is reading this recalculating the editing rates she's going to charge me for my next book
Raymond wrote: "Oh but I love "seem" almost as much as "like"- in some stories my characters do an awful lot of "nodding"...I also might be addicted to the use of quotes lol"I like to use quotes when I'm talking, but I like to use them at the beginning and end of the phrase, unlike most people who just double 'quote' at the beginning of the phrase. It makes more sense to me that way.
Raymond wrote: "Lynda is reading this recalculating the editing rates she's going to charge me for my next book"Ka-ching!
I've got your back, Raymond...for the right price...
(See, I can use ... too! —I had to pay your dad for copyright, though.)
R.A. wrote: "I like to use quotes when I'm talking, but I like to use them at the beginning and end of the phrase, unlike most people who just double 'quote' at the beginning of the phrase. It makes more sense to me that way."I'm not sure I understand. The only time you don't close the quotation is at the end of a paragraph where the quotation continues at the start of the next.
For example, Lynda said, "Ka-ching!
"I've got your back, Raymond...for the right price...
"(See, I can use ... too! —I had to pay your dad for copyright, though.)"
Francis wrote: "R.A. wrote: "I like to use quotes when I'm talking, but I like to use them at the beginning and end of the phrase, unlike most people who just double 'quote' at the beginning of the phrase. It make..."I mean when I'm literally talking. With my mouth. You know, that little finger flipping quote thing people do when they're quoting something. I like to open and close the quote with a finger flip, rather than simply opening with it. Maybe it's just something people do in my part of the country (USA).
Ah, okay. I don't think there's a formal convention for that... :-)
Francis wrote: "Ah, okay. I don't think there's a formal convention for that... :-)"Not that I'm aware of. Give it a few years. There may well be legislation about it at some point.
So, here's a question I came across this morning. What is the proper use in the following example?
It didn’t matter how good looking he was,—how perfectly handsome—she couldn’t stand him.
OR
It didn’t matter how good looking he was—how perfectly handsome—she couldn’t stand him.
Or are they both just bad? I don't write romance, by the way, this is totally part of a SUB plot.
R.A. wrote: "Francis wrote: "Ah, okay. I don't think there's a formal convention for that... :-)"Not that I'm aware of. Give it a few years. There may well be legislation about it at some point.
So, here's a ..."
I believe you can use either dashes or commas, but not both at the same time.
A good rule of thumb is to not use dashes when commas will do the trick. Save the dashes for the moments when they're really needed.
More on dashes here: http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/gramma...
A sub plot, eh? Sounds kinky.(The comma looks wrong.)
Yes, I think the comma looks wrong, but if you take out the dashes and content, the comma is needed. Up until this discussion about ( ), I hadn't considered using the comma. Maybe I will follow Janelle's rule and lose the dashes altogether. Or is it all together? Now I'm mixing my threads. All together is for the Alright vs. All right thread. :)(Nothing kinky going on here. Just a little innocent infatuation.)
"R.A. wrote: ...lose the dashes altogether. Or is it all together? Now I'm mixing my threads. All together is for the Alright vs. All right thread. :)R.A., rest easy. All together and altogether are both proper words/phrases to use—they just mean different things. Just don't tell the alright/all right crowd over there.
As to your other phrase, have you considered a comma and a period, separating it into two sentences?
"It didn't matter how good looking he was, or how perfectly handsome. She couldn't stand him."
Lynda, thanks for the idea. I'll add it to my roster :).Oh, and I was joking about all together. I wonder how many other things like that we could come up with?
Raymond wrote: "In fiction writing do we really need to rewrite every sentence that ends in a preposition?"What would you do that for? Makes me wonder...
@C.M.J., now you owe Raymond's dad for use of his ellipses. We can't use them frivolously or he'll notice some of his are missing.
@Lynda, he has to find me if he wants to collect... I realize that it's an altogether difficult task to engage in. But given enough luck, he may do all right (in which case I'll be literally shaking in my boots).
You people are a lot of fun. If I wasn't so tired, I'd stay up and party with you. But my brain is beyond figuring out ways to fit questionable punctuation and grammer into this post. Two hours of trick-or-treat could do anyone in, I suppose.
This was def an entertaining thread! The Oatmeal link was hysterical BTW!!
