Allegiant
discussion
Questions about Allegiant
i don't actually think that Tobias was vaccinated. if you remember the scene, he clearly named the folks that got it and it didn't sound to me like he did. that threw me for a few minutes during the story since i was wondering what that meant to it all.
Maybe the antiserum is only temporary and the effects will wear off within a few hours or something? I don't think it would be a permanent immunity. So the people in the Bureau would have to get regular vaccines, and I'm sure they felt pretty confident that nothing like what happened would ever come to pass.I'm not sure if it's ever clearly laid out (I kind of zone out during all the science talk tbh), but that would make the most sense to me.
Yeah, I assumed the vaccination was just temporary. Even in real life, you have to get the flu shot every year, you're not permanently immune to the virus after getting it once. Granted, it was much shorter of a period of time that passed between when Tobias took the vaccine and when he attempted to use the memory serum, but I think it's fair enough to assume the vaccine only provides short-term immunity.
Why did they change the cover?
Well... I don't know. This seems like a plot hole to me. We have to get the Flu vaccine every year because the virus itself is constantly changing. Additionally, there many different strands and types of the Flu virus.The memory serum would not change unless a new one has been developed. Also, there is only one. The shortest a vaccine can last outside of the Flu shot is the tetanus shot that has to be taken every five to ten years.
If the memory serum vaccine only lasted a few hours, wouldn't it be the same for the death serum? If so, why is David just hanging out in the weapons room for who knows how long, then? How would he know when Calab / Tris were coming? Unless he was tipped off by someone like Peter or Matthew.
Tobias definately was one of the people vaccinated. If the vaccine only lasted a few hours then the characters in Allegiant would have had to deal with the question of if Calab did not succeed (he's not trained like most of the rest of them) and the memory serum drop was delayed a few hours because of him. Most of the gang's memories would have been wiped. You would think that this would have been something that Matthew was aware of and something Tris, Calab or Cara additionally would have come up with as a flaw in their plan.
I think the vaccine lasted for about a day.Why would the memory serum be the Abnegation serum?
Isn't taking someone's memory selfish?
The antiserum does not last forever. It's not a vaccination, it's momentary protection.All the serums in the book only work for a limited time - the peace serum, the truth serum, the death serum, the memory serum, the simulation serum.
They last long enough to do the job they are meant to do and then evaporate or whatever. Otherwise people who were given truth serum would never be able to lie again. People given the memory serum would never be able to remember any details about their lives. People given any simulation serum would never live in reality, and the Amity wouldn't ever need to reissue the peace serum or bake it into bread. Obviously that's not the case.
So logically, the protection from the serum would lasts long enough to counteract the effects of one dose.
That's how I see it anyway. I'm not saying there aren't any holes in the plot, though. I'm finding loads of them....
But yes, Tobias did inject himself with the antiserum, but by the time he thought of taking the memory serum, it was worn off.
I think he waited a few weeks.
Can someone explain to me why they care so much about GD? I don't really get it. It's not really necessary I think. Hmm..
The way I understood it in the book was that a long time ago, people got the idea that they could improve people by messing with their genes. The plan backfired and resulted in what they now call the genetically damaged (GD) people. Which is who they blame for the Purity Wars that wiped out over half of the world's population.
The Divergent people are the ones they think are the genetically pure people - like the original people who's genes weren't altered.
They look at the GDs as a lower class of people and say that because of their bad genes, they can't help the bad things they do. But they also don't really care if they live or die since they aren't what they want in terms of genes to pass on to the future generations in their goal to attain a perfect humanity again.
I don't really get it. It's not really necessary I think.
That's the whole point of the last part of the story when they want to change things by erasing the scientist's memories. Tris and the people who want to rebel against the system don't believe that the GD stuff is true. They blame bad things on human nature and think that the experiments are cruel and unnecessary. And result in alot of unnecessary death.
Did tris and tobias ever have sex? there was that one scene where they were very intimate and shirts came off but it wasnt very clear on whether they did anything or not?
That scene could go either way, which I think was the author's intent, but personally, I don't think they did. There was some line later on that made me think that what we actually saw was as far as they went. I can't remember exactly what it was though. But considering where they came from, that much was extremely intimate for the two of them.
And I think if it went further, there would have been alot more said about it because it would have been a really big deal for both of them.
yeah, i agree. i just wanted to make sure.
Tobias did inject himself with the memory serum vaccine, in the neck, like always. I thought that it was stated in the book somewhere that the vaccine for the memory serum would last for 4 days. When he was going to inject himself was long after that time had passed.
Oh, I must've missed it in the book when it said it wore off! But even if it didn't wear off, it is different than a flu shot. The flu virus mutates every year, if the serum wasn't changed they wouldn't have to change it. I suppose for the plot point to work they wouldn't be able to make it permanent.
It just annoys me that the memory serum can permanently erase your memory, but the antiserum is temporary!
Maddie wrote: "It just annoys me that the memory serum can permanently erase your memory, but the antiserum is temporary! "Why? If you erase something, it doesn't come back. It's a one time thing. The memory serum is just as temporary as all the others, the effects are just different.
I mean, sure, the simulation, peace, and truth serums don't last forever, but the effects can be just as permanent as the memory serum. Think about the scene where Tobias had to take it. He couldn't take back the fact that everyone knew about his father even though he was only under the influence of the serum for a few minutes.
The Dauntless can't take back the things they do while under the simulation serum.
And the results of the death serum certainly can't be changed.
They're all just as temporary and permanent as each other.
Yer Tobias injected himself in the neck at the same time he noticed peter faked injecting himself. What I didn't get they were trying to develop a stronger truth serum when that didn't work and they found out about the death serum why didn't they start working on a vaccination for that? I get they wouldn't have had time in the end but it was like they knew someone was going to die and didn't even try to prevent it
And why would they try the exact same plan in the camera room that failed the first time?
If I'm remembering right, they worked on the stronger truth serum for a few weeks and hadn't made much progress. I don't think they had much time to work on anything else. And they wouldn't really have been able to test the result of the antiserum for the death serum, since to actually see if it would work, you'd have to purposely inject someone with the death serum and know that they would probably die. "And why would they try the exact same plan in the camera room that failed the first time? "
Well, it wasn't the exact same plan....but it was similar. The only thing I can think of is that it was their only option.
But I think there are quite a few flaws in the story as it is....so I don't know....
Yer but if David had a cure surely there was more somewhere...I know what you mean though to many flaws
Kailey wrote: "One thing I was a little unclear about was if Divergence truly doesn't mean anything (which it seemed to me was the conclusion they ultimately reached) why do only the Divergents get multiple aptit..."I have no answers for you but I just wanted to ask...was I the only one who felt cheated when they said what divergence was? Also that the factions were just an experiment? I hated that! Its why I loved the book to start with
Hannah wrote: " I just wanted to ask...was I the only one who felt cheated when they said what divergence was? Also that the factions were just an experiment? I hated that! Its why I loved the book to start with."I had the opposite reaction. Divergence always struck me as being the more normal, well-rounded human, with many different virtues and personality traits. The factions based on one virtue always seemed far-fetched, and the "experiment" explanation made everything fall into place for me. I practically pumped my fist when I read that. :)
Hannah wrote: "Yer but if David had a cure surely there was more somewhere...I know what you mean though to many flaws"That's true, but David was also the only one who knew about the cure. So it's not like they could have stolen it.
Kailey wrote: "One thing I was a little unclear about was if Divergence truly doesn't mean anything (which it seemed to me was the conclusion they ultimately reached) why do only the Divergents get multiple aptitude test results?"Well, it's not that Divergence doesn't exist. But it doesn't carry as much weight as the scientists running the experiments believe it does.
Their theory is that if the people aren't Divergent, they're damaged and therefore flawed. The damaged people are second class citizens and incapable of overcoming their tendencies for violence or other shortcomings. Which is the reason they wanted to gain a large Divergent population - they wanted to weed out the bad stuff in people.
Tris knows right away that this isn't true. She saw good and bad come from both those who were divergent and those who weren't.
That's one of the points of the story - that bad things aren't the result of some flaw in people's genes, but rather human nature. That we all have to make the choice to do good or bad.
"Surely if there's no difference between the Divergents and everyone else except simulation awareness, others would've gotten multiple faction aptitudes."
I'm not sure how great a test of Divergence the aptitude test would be in reality, but for their purposes, it was supposed to isolate the person's strongest tendency. Tris didn't really have one leaning. She was essentially selfless, but alot of times that means being brave. But she was also a survivor which requires a certain level of selfishness and deep thought too.
In reality, people do tend to do what is comfortable. If they're raised a certain way, they might react however they were trained to react rather than what their instinct is. For instance someone raised in Amity might have the instinct to tell the truth in a situation, but they might lie despite that instinct to prevent any conflict the truth might cause.
It's the sheep mentality. So maybe the aptitude test is a better indicator of someone willing to think for themselves or not.
"But even Four who was simulation aware but not a Divergent only got a single faction result: Abnegation. At the time, he thought he was a fluke but it's revealed he actually wasn't Divergent, so I'm not sure how this works."
If you read the Transfer, you learn that Four's result was fixed. Marcus told him exactly what to do to receive the result of Abnegation, so we don't really know if he would have received it on his own or if he would have shown Divergence.
Maddie wrote: "There were so many questions I had at the end of this book because the ending was so unclear! I'll start with one question, and people can add more too. If there was an antiserum to the memory se..."
Because the vaccination only lasts for a limited amount of time, like 24 hours so if they didn't know it was going to happen they couldn't have known to vaccinate themselves that day. The same answer may apply to Tobias although I've forgotten how long after he was vaccinated he tries to erase his memories.
If Tobias had memory serum to take into the city they had access to some version of, right? Even it if wasn't the one that just is in the air. and if they were testing the truth serum they had access to a lot of chemicals. They could have just made their own air serum based on the stuff they had access to or since Tris is in government planned an attack where they all injected them or but it in the officials coffee..I don't see why she had to die when they had access to memory serum...
Tobias taking the serum confused me too, to be honest. I also wondered if he even needed it, considering that he can resist serums anyway. Doesn't he? And also, if David had the foresight to inoculate himself against death serum when he had the password to get into the room anyway, you'd naturally assume he'd also inoculate himself against memory serum. That stuff is just as dangerous.
No one in the bureau thought to inject the anti-memory serum because they didn't think that was the goal of the perpetrators.The immunization serums were all temporary, and only lasted for a little longer than the original serums would be active.
Therefore, Tobias did inoculate himself against the memory serum before going into Chicago, but the serum would have worked later, after Tris died.
Question: If every situation can be magically fixed by a serum, and every serum can be magically canceled by an inoculation besides, then what is the fuck is the point of anything?
Lauren wrote: "Question: If every situation can be magically fixed by a serum, and every serum can be magically canceled by an inoculation besides, then what is the fuck is the point of anything?"Ugh. The serums in this book are the most overused plot device ever.
"Can't explain a plot point? There's a serum for that!"
"Found a plot hole? There's an anti-serum for that!" (but not really because half the anit-serums just created more plot holes but whatever)
I had a question about the end... why couldn't Caleb catch up to Tris and maybe break in to the Weapons Lab and kill David? Was Caleb captured by the scientists? I just feel like no one was paying attention to the Weapons Lab, and surely someone heard David shooting Tris...I mean, I just don't Tris to have died, so maybe that's why I ask...
Lauren wrote: "Question: If every situation can be magically fixed by a serum, and every serum can be magically canceled by an inoculation besides, then what is the fuck is the point of anything?"Why would anyone believe that sorting people into different groups would achieve peace when it's been historically proven time and time again that defining people by race/creed/colour/religion etc has only even led to conflict.
I found the Divergent trilogy very underwhelming. I thought the Equilibrium idea was much better: A serum that suppresses all emotion.
This may be trivial but I found all the injecting of serums a bit odd. I don't think you could inject yourself in the neck and hit a vein. Not to mention none of them had training in it. They just seemed to be suddenly plunging needles into their own neck veins. I know it is science fiction.
That always bothered me. It wasn't one of those things that would ruin a book or take me out of the story or anything, but it did occur to me that it was very peculiar to be constantly injecting stuff into your neck when you don't know what you're doing. It was one of the many things that I feel were an example of the author not knowing how stuff works.
Ok this is killing...What was the purpose of the code that Tris typed in after deploying the memory serum in the Weapon's Lap? How did it automatically erase everyone's memory in the compound? And why would the Bureau create a code that erases their own memory? Seemed way too easy to me.
Dominique wrote: "Ok this is killing...What was the purpose of the code that Tris typed in after deploying the memory serum in the Weapon's Lap? How did it automatically erase everyone's memory in the compound? An..."
Oh my goodness, don't even get me started on that. I haven't read the book since the first day, and I never intend to open it again as long as I live, so I may not remember correctly, but the place was already set up this way? The entire compound was wired so that they could be gassed by their own weapons at the push of a button? Entering a code allows airborne memory serum to be dispersed through the vents or something in every single corner of the facility? Yeah, that makes sense.
Does anyone think he may have ended up with Cara in the end? I have a feeling the book was hinting to that. Was that just me??
Abigail wrote: "I don't think he would betray tris like that, I think he would feel guilty"Yeah I get what you are saying. But I'm talking like you know in a few years or so because in the book it showed some qualities that something might happen later on. Do you see what I'm saying? Like in like ten years or so.
Does anyone else think it was Cara who shot Tris? I deleted (ARGH!!) my copy of the book permanently off my Kindle so I cannot get the quote, but during the final scene in the lab, it says something about Tris being shot and seeing David "slumped over in his wheelchair with Cara behind him."Why is he "slumped over?" What's she doing there? No explanation is ever given.
She also bad-mouths Tris later in the book, calling her a "rebel" and Four gets MAD. She backpeddles and says that's not what *they* think of her, that's what the government considers her.
Tris caught her and Christina talking junk about her in Insurgent. Christina finally forgave Tris, but I don't think Cara ever did.
Food for thought.
Cara wasn't in the room. David was slumped over because Tris just released the memory serum as she was shot, and so the gas knocked him out.
Does anyone know the timeframe from when Trish first went to Dauntless to when she made her final sacrifice for Caleb?
Rose wrote: "Does anyone think he may have ended up with Cara in the end? I have a feeling the book was hinting to that. Was that just me??"I was so afraid of that, as well! I know a lot of people liked Cara but not me. Since Roth has been writing prequel's in Tobias' voice do you think she'll have a sequel? If so, Cara better not be with Tobias!
Tracy wrote: "Does anyone know the timeframe from when Trish first went to Dauntless to when she made her final sacrifice for Caleb?"Six months, give or take; the epilogue takes place on what was formerly Choosing Day two and a half years later.
What I don't understand is what happened when Tris was shot in the end. Did David kill her? Or the soldiers?
Matthew wrote: "Tracy wrote: "Does anyone know the timeframe from when Trish first went to Dauntless to when she made her final sacrifice for Caleb?"Six months, give or take; the epilogue takes place on what was..."
Thanks! That makes sense, since the Epilogue is 2.5 years later and takes place on a Choosing Day.
Emily wrote: "What I don't understand is what happened when Tris was shot in the end. Did David kill her? Or the soldiers?"David did. In a wheelchair. Why she had no gun or no bulletproof vest on is beyond me.
I do not understand why Tris's only thought was to dive for the button. If this story was to take place anywhere in the land of logic, realistically she would have made some attempt to disarm David or knock the gun out of his hand or something. Anything other than just rush to the button, knowing full well that David would shoot her instantly if she made that particular move. Was the button on a timer? Did she have only three seconds left or something to enter the code before the system shut down and she would not be able to release the serum at all and so she had to save the mission before herself because she would not be able to do both? No? Then there was no reason for her to throw herself into certain death like that. No believable reason, anyway. The only reason she did that was to serve the author's contrived purpose of having her die for the sake of dying. This story sucks. Veronica's creative writing teachers must be black and blue from facepalming their way through this whole book.
I agree with the first part, but I still love this book. The ending is the only part that was terrible.
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If there was an antiserum to the memory serum available, why was nobody at the Bureau vaccinated against it?
(Also, wasn't Tobias vaccinated against the memory serum before he went to Chicago to talk to Evelyn? So wouldn't it have been pointless for him to take the memory serum after Tris died, even if Christina hadn't talked him out of it?)