Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Introductions
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Please introduce yourself~
Hi my name is Zee, or that's what they call me for short. I'm a writer who is still pottering about and reading up on her PhD subject (English, naturally). Fav genres are literary fiction, the Canon, the enlightenment/ Romantics and science fiction (very selective about that one, very) and lately South American fiction (Borges, ohhh yes...)I also like my Japanese and Chinese books too, I have this thing for all things Asian. Having said that I'm picky about what I read the way some people are picky about what they eat. If I'm not learning something new from it, I usually declare it as crap and swiftly move on (and please tell me that silly beige box will disappear after this post) and that means I rarely pick up books that are for mainstream general reading.
The harder and fatter the book, the better is my motto. So happy I've met like-minded people. I read min. 3 books at a time. I've had 6 going at one point (a sign of intelligence I'd like to think, either that or plain weirdness). Anyhow, that's enough of me... now, let's get stuck into those bookshelves shall we??
Welcome Zee! Given your interests I hope you have read Art of War and Book of Five Rings?There is also a somewhat fictionalized biography on Miyamoto Musashi that I read about 25 years ago. I don't remember the author, but it was a good read!
Hi Zee. Since I am called Zeke, it's nice to zee you here. (Ouch and apologies!)
You said: Having said that I'm picky about what I read the way some people are picky about what they eat. If I'm not learning something new from it, I usually declare it as crap and swiftly move on
I find this very interesting. We all know there will never be enough time to read all we wish to --to say nothing of rereading or studying-- but it would be interesting to see how members of the group feel about "dumping" a book that isn't working.
I confess that I find that very hard to do; especially if the book is reputed to be "important." I once heard that a rule of thumb is to subtract one's age from 80 and if the book doesn't grab you by then, dump it. Unfortunately, that doesn't leave me very many pages, so I have never followed that rule either.
Do others have rules of thumb for this?
You said: Having said that I'm picky about what I read the way some people are picky about what they eat. If I'm not learning something new from it, I usually declare it as crap and swiftly move on
I find this very interesting. We all know there will never be enough time to read all we wish to --to say nothing of rereading or studying-- but it would be interesting to see how members of the group feel about "dumping" a book that isn't working.
I confess that I find that very hard to do; especially if the book is reputed to be "important." I once heard that a rule of thumb is to subtract one's age from 80 and if the book doesn't grab you by then, dump it. Unfortunately, that doesn't leave me very many pages, so I have never followed that rule either.
Do others have rules of thumb for this?
Sounds like a good question for the Tea Room. And I have conquered my qualms about dumping books, even important ones. If it's not working at the 20-25% point, it's toast.
Welcome, Zee! If you like fat books, it's too bad you missed our reads of Les Miserables and Don Quixote -- both nice fat books.Yes, the beige box will disappear after your first post. Or at least it should; if it doesn't, let me know.
Kevin, Art of War is sitting on my shelf right now. In what I call the 'prominent position'. The Five rings I have yet to get my mitts on. Zeke, nice to meet you (I like your name, very unusual, is it Australian?) Yep... time weighs heavy on my heart when it comes to books. It almost threatens to take the joy out of reading itself. Dumping books used to feel bad, but now I have come to accept that I will never get along or see eye to eye with every author. I have come back to dumped books with new eyes only to fall in love with them. I think sometimes you have to grow into a book, you need to mature to fully appreciate what it has to say. I must find this tea room you are all talking about. Can I get some Earl Grey there?
Kate, I'm with you about the dumping of books. There is generally a little guy inside me that says 'That's it! Can't take it no more!' and I leave off.
Hi Everyman, Yes, I've noticed (bummer). Reading Les Mis on my own got me about 1/2 way (even though it was gorgeous!!) and I've never read DQ. Too bad. Have you done Ulysses yet?
A great big "Hello" to all of you of the 'Classics and Western Canon'! I have lurked for nearly two years and have finally taken the plunge. I know some of you well, and look forward to meeting many more of you.I believe the overall intentions of this group to track completely with where I am headed with my reading. I am looking for the 'good stuff,' and I really want to settle for nothing less. Will I participate in every group read? Probably not, but I will firmly commit to fully participate in any that I start. I also commit to visit some of your earlier discussion threads for books that I plan to read or re-read. For example, I read Les Miserables some 30 years ago, but I recently acquired the new Julie Rose translation in the Modern Library hardbound edition. I plan to work through your discussion threads at my own pace with that most amazing novel.
Like Everyman, I really do not indulge in fiction beyond about 1940, and no pejorative is meant. I am 54 years old, and I realize that I have a finite amount of reading time left to me, and I choose to invest it rather wisely from this point forward. Having said that, I must say that I am very much looking forward to working my way through the 'The Oresteian Trilogy' with all of you.
Finally, I want to thank all of you for the opportunity to share with one another this wonderful world of literature that sits on each of our respective shelves. We are truly connected by our love of books and our joy at the interpretation of the printed word, and frankly I cannot think of anything more lovely! Cheers! Chris
Christopher wrote: "A great big "Hello" to all of you of the 'Classics and Western Canon'! I have lurked for nearly two years and have finally taken the plunge. I know some of you well, and look forward to meeting m..."We'll be delighted to have you with us actively, Christopher. Glad you decided to take the plunge. As they say, come on in, the water's fine!
Zee wrote: "Hi my name is Zee, or that's what they call me for short. I'm a writer who is still pottering about and reading up on her PhD subject (English, naturally). Fav genres are literary fiction, the ..."
I like fat books too Zeke and generally have two or three books on the go at any one time - fact, fiction and anything that takes my fancy. My TBR shelf is the floor either side of my bed, a groaning shelf by my computer and another groaning shelf on the other side of the room, plus a couple of large bags....oh! and a cupboard stuffed with books for bazaars. My bedroom is the untidiest room in my house because it is cluttered with books although I have a nice tidy library of a few thousand books in my downstairs lounge too.
Hi, I have just recently joined this group maybe a couple of months ago, but I have yet to introduce my unitl know. So far, I have enjoyed reading the classics since I have so much time to spare because of a back injure. The doctor sayes that its only a back strain because of the kind of out I do in healthcare. So while my back hills will like to follow some the group reading and may be join in some the discussions. Thanks,
MadgeUK wrote: "Zee wrote: "Hi my name is Zee, or that's what they call me for short. I'm a writer who is still pottering about and reading up on her PhD subject (English, naturally). Fav genres are literary fic..."
Your room sounds like my room. Seriously. But instead of bags I have cardboard boxes lol. My middle shelf in the cupboard is about to collapse from the weight of about 80 books. It's a disgrace!
Charlene wrote: "Hi, I have just recently joined this group maybe a couple of months ago, but I have yet to introduce my until now."Glad you stepped forward, Charlene. I'm sorry about your back, but at least you have a silver lining in the chance to do more reading. Hope you can join us for the Oresteia discussion.
Hi Everyman & everyone. I'm Ibis (my real name is Michelle, but I'm Ibis or Ibis3 or some version thereof everywhere on the net). I love classics and have been reading them on my own for years. I'm not sure how often I'll join in with selected readings, but I'm sure when I do, it will prove to be very rewarding. Do you ever revive discussions of books you did a while ago?
Welcome, Ibis/Michelle. Do join the discussions when you can --- that's really what we're all about here.We don't very often revive past discussions in any formal sense, but all those threads are still open, and if you post a comment or question or response to a post you'll probably get some replies. Which book(s) were you thinking of?
We don't very often revive past discussions in any formal sense, but all those threads re still open, and if you post a comment or question or response to a post you'll probably get some replies. Which book(s) were you thinking of?"I'm not thinking of any in particular.* I'm just considering the possible scenario of my reading a book now (or in the future) that you've already read (or will have already read)...
*Out of curiosity, I might go back and look at some of your discussion of Paradise Lost, which, coincidentally, I finished back in July.
As it happens I've read your upcoming book already (Oresteia right?) and with so many books and so little time, a re-read is kind of rare (at least for right now). Do you already have the next book picked out? I might be up for that if I've not read it. My current classic is The Old Curiosity Shop which will be followed by Vico's New Science. I'm alternating, generally, between fiction (which includes epic poetry) and non-fiction. I've tentatively pencilled in Moll Flanders for Octoberish, but if your random list generator :) turns up something I'm keen on I'll be sure to join in.
Ibis3 wrote: "As it happens I've read your upcoming book already (Oresteia right?) and with so many books and so little time, a re-read is kind of rare (at least for right now). Do you already have the next book picked out? "I think you'll find that many people here see re-reading as very valuable. I do, for one, certainly, and I'm not alone. These books we read here are so full of wisdom and intelligence that there's no way one can absorb it all on a single reading.
I equate it to friendships. Yes, I always want to make new friends. But I also want to keep spending time with my old friends, because they are worth getting to know better, and they always have something new to say to me.
I certainly understand the "too many books" syndrome -- we all have it here in spades -- but there is also the "but also, I want to deepen my understanding of books which are worth re-reading." There's no right answer to the balance of new reading and re-reading, but I encourage you to think of taking a second look at books of enduring value you have read once.
No, we don't have the next book picked out yet, but it will be coming along sooner rather than later.
Everyman wrote: "I think you'll find that many people here see re-reading as very valuable. I do, for one, certainly, and I'm not alone. These books we read here are so full of wisdom and intelligence that there's no way one can absorb it all on a single reading."Oh, don't get me wrong. I love the idea of re-reading and agree with you completely about the value of it. I just feel rather guilty/anxious/regretful about doing it when I know there are a number of "must-read-the-first-time"s out there waiting for me. It's a hard choice, especially when, as you say, the classics have so much to offer even on a fourth or fifth re-read. Ah, maybe you'll convince me yet...
Ibis3 wrote: "It's a hard choice, especially when, as you say, the classics have so much to offer even on a fourth or fifth re-read. Ah, maybe you'll convince me yet... "Well, maybe I could convince you at least to re-read the Oresteia with us and see what happens?!
There's nothing saying you can't participate in the discussion, anyway, using what you remember of it . . . and of course you'll be tempted to go back to the text to remind yourself . . . and then read a little more . . . and a little more . . . Honestly, though, I bought the Oresteia this past Sunday, and I had finished it by Tuesday, even though I meant to only read Agamemmnon. It's a quick and very compelling read. It can't possibly take too much away from your other books! (And now I get to see whether my money's where my mouth is when it comes to re-reading for discussion . . . )
Thomas wrote: "I was lucky enough to read much of the "western canon" at St. John's College, some twenty-odd years ago. Since then I have mostly looked at those venerable texts, sitting inert on the shelf, and ha..."I was interested to see mention of St John's Eastern Canon Thomas because I have always thought that the original Great Books Programme (Adler & Co) was too western oriented and that we westerners ought to read more about the east. Is there any chance of you, or another Johnnie, starting a club for Classics of the Eastern Canon?
Hi,
I'm Jenny, studying English Literature at the University of Winchester. I started reading the Classics when I was writing my personal statement to apply to the University, and haven't really stopped since. I am into my second year now and have got loads of classics in my module choices - in fact all of the books I've added on here so far are the ones that I have or will be studying.
I'm Jenny, studying English Literature at the University of Winchester. I started reading the Classics when I was writing my personal statement to apply to the University, and haven't really stopped since. I am into my second year now and have got loads of classics in my module choices - in fact all of the books I've added on here so far are the ones that I have or will be studying.
Jenny wrote: "Hi,I'm Jenny, studying English Literature at the University of Winchester."
Welcome, Jenny. Good to have you with us!
MadgeUK wrote: "Is there any chance of you, or another Johnnie, starting a club for Classics of the Eastern Canon? "That's a great idea, Madge. I'm surprised there isn't a GR group doing that already, but it doesn't appear that there is one. I understand the reasons for segregating the Western Canon from the Eastern, but I agree that we have much to learn from the East. So there really should be an Eastern group, I agree! What we should do is recruit someone who really knows the Eastern tradition to start a group. Do you know anyone who would be interested?
Wow, I was just about to search for GR group for the Eastern Canon when I saw post 395. One of the problems is finding decent translations. Even when good translations have been done, they are not easy or (often) cheap to come by. I have a fair number of the important Chinese works in my library, some in traslation, some in Chinese, some in simplified retellings for Chinese school children. My chinese isn't really up to tackling much more than brief poems, which I do like to read occasionally in the original.Much of what I have would be concidered part of the canon, but I don't know enough to say whether something like The True Story of Ah Q 阿Q正傳, which was written in 1922 a "classic"? Is it "canon"?
Works like Romance of the Three Kingdoms (of which I only own vol. 1, long story) and White Snake and Journey to the West and Dream of the Red Chamber are definitely there, but what about The Classic of Mountains and Seas? Does that weird little book belong in the canon? I don't know enough to say.
I am far less knowledgable about Japanese Literature, and most of what I own is modern. I'm not sure I have any Korean Literature, folktales, yes; on second thought, I do have some modern short stories. But other countries? I know nothing of the literatures of Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, Burma and little enough about India except for the major religious texts and a few modern novelists and dramatists.
I would love to join a group like this, but I don't feel at all qualified to start one. Depressing.
Hello, I'm Geraldine Wierzbicki-Roach, also a former college teacher. I miss teaching terribly and allow the dream of returning into my head. (MS cut my career short.)My life has been reading and now, some writing. I have a PhD in English literature and the classics I have read over the years have made it difficult for me to read some contemporary literature.The classics also make me realize the numerous flaws, the stand-at-the-end-of-the-line value of my own writing.
Because of this group, I feel I've come home. Thanks for being. Gerry (But I'm envious, not jealous of our leader and his island.) I would die to be in such natural beauty.
Welcome, Gerry. Sounds as though you'll fit right in here. I know exactly what you mean about classic literature spoiling you for contemporary literature. I wonder sometimes why it seems so impossible for contemporary writers just to tell an interesting and enjoyable story. Look forward to your contributions to the Oresteia, Huck Finn, and whatever else comes up in our future here.
Hi, I'm Caleb. Began reading the classics at the University of Dallas, and it was there that I first experienced reading great works in a community. There's nothing like it. I'm more of a political philosophy and theology kind of person--especially Plato, Plutarch, and Augustine. But I'm certainly looking forward to being streched by the great novels y'all have planned.
Caleb wrote: "Hi, I'm Caleb. Began reading the classics at the University of Dallas, and it was there that I first experienced reading great works in a community. There's nothing like it. I'm more of a po..."
Welcome, Caleb! I hope we get into some of the philosophy issues myself, but we'll have to nudge some of the novel lovers a bit to get them to appreciate Plato.
Augustine, I'm not so sure about. We managed not to get into any knock-down-drag-out fights over religion during Paradise lost, but at times it was touch and go!
Everyman wrote: "Caleb wrote: "Hi, I'm Caleb. Began reading the classics at the University of Dallas, and it was there that I first experienced reading great works in a community. There's nothing like it.
I'm ..."
Hi Caleb. Welcome. Novels don't always win out around here. Really. The last pick was Aeschylus over Tristram Shandy. LOL. Do come and jump into the discussion of Oresteia. We're still working on the first play so there is plenty of time to catch up.
I'm ..."
Hi Caleb. Welcome. Novels don't always win out around here. Really. The last pick was Aeschylus over Tristram Shandy. LOL. Do come and jump into the discussion of Oresteia. We're still working on the first play so there is plenty of time to catch up.
Hi All,My name is Monique. I became interested in reading the classics because they are so often referred to in contemporary literature.
I am looking forward to reading Huck Finn as I have never read it. I'm not sure how that happened since I thought it was a staple of required high school reading. No offense to those who were looking forward to the Morte, but I was a Celtic Studies major and now 7 years later I am still burnt out on Arthurian motifs. However if we do decide to read it later I will gladly take up the challenge.
As for some of the oldies but goodies that I have made it through: The golden Ass, The Aeneid, War and Peace, The Oddyssey...
One I COULD NOT get through: Don Quixote (I'm chalking it up to a bad translation and I have a different one I am going to attepmt at a later date.)
Anyway, that's sort of it for me. I must say up front that I may lurk on here for a while as I am finishing up my Master's Degree in Library Science (Dec. 2010) but after that I should be good to go, meaning that I will attempt to make insightful comments.
Monique wrote: "Hi All,My name is Monique. I became interested in reading the classics because they are so often referred to in contemporary literature. "
Welcome, Monique! Sounds as though you'll fit right in.
We read Don Quixote here a while back, and the posts are still available if you're interested. I had never read it before, and found the reading and the discussion fascinating. I had gotten the Grossman translation, which I found considerably more accessible than the older Putnam translation.
I suspect we'll get to War and Peace and the Odyssey here eventually, but it may take awhile. The Golden Ass wasn't on our bookshelves, so wouldn't have been available as a possible reading, but I think that was an oversight, so have added it to at least give it a chance of making it into the reading list.
Yeah it was the Putnam translation that I was reading. I'll check out the discussion posts. Thanks!
Everyman wrote: "The Golden Ass wasn't on our bookshelves, so wouldn't have been available as a possible reading, but I think that was an oversight, so have added it to at least give it a chance of making it into the reading list."I read it last year and really enjoyed it. It would be a fun one to read with this group.
Oh my god I think I've read as much (well almost) as the entire canon after reading all these descriptions of such rare and beautiful people. I say rare becaue not all people take very well to the classics and look, we have people from the U S and other countries, other continents.I'm new here and don't want to be overbearing but I was looking at your selection of books and saw Edith Wharton listed there. And Everyman mentioned that he thought it would be wise to read something shorter after accomplishing DON QUIXOTE. Well, there are two heavy (in theme and thought) but short-in-length books by Edith Whharton,either of which would answer that need. Ethan Frome|5246] orSummer. Nothing by Wharton is slight but these are slight in weight. My vote is cast. Geraldine Wierzbicki-RoachThus Bound: the story of Tadziu and Marysza
Hello, I'm new to goodreads and still learning my way around. I see that you're in the middle of a group read. What's next on the list?
Nemo wrote: "Hello, I'm new to goodreads and still learning my way around. I see that you're in the middle of a group read. What's next on the list?"We've really just started the Oresteia, and you can catch up with the reading of Agamemnon in a matter of two hours, so don't feel you have to wait! But after the Oresteia will come an interim read that will be announced at the time (always something available on the Internet and fairly short), then we plunge into a reading of Huckleberry Finn, including a discussion of whether and if so why it deserves consideration as The Great American Novel.
Everyman wrote: "We've really just started the Oresteia, and yo..."
Thanks for the info. I might be able to catch up then. Which edition is the group using? Has there been a discussion of the merits of the various translations?
Nemo wrote: "Thanks for the info. I might be able to catch up then. Which edition is the group using? Has there been a discussion of the merits of the various translations? "Everybody uses whatever edition they want to. There has been some discussion of translations, but no recommended one. Lattimore tends to be preferred by academics, but some of the newer translations are a bit smoother and easier to read, though not perhaps quite as consistent with the feel of the original Greek. I read the plays first in Lattimore, but I am coming to like the Meineck translation more recently. I have tried Fagles, and for some reason he doesn't quite do it for me, though others like his translation. Thomas did a post in the Agamemnon thread comparing several translations of a particular passage. You could find that if you scanned the Agamemnon thread for his posts.
If you don't have a copy and want to start reading right away, Johnston's translation is on line, at
http://records.viu.ca/~johnstoi/aesch...
Hi,I'm a systems librarian for a group of medical libraries. I got my MLS via a BA in English (anyone heard the Avenue Q song about a BA in English...it's all true). After four years of British Lit, American Lit, Greco-Roman Lit, and "world classics" I couldn't stand the thought of reading anything published before 1950. 12 years later, I'm just now feeling like I can crack the door on the vault...and I already have a "pile" of books on my Nook waiting to be read.
Welcome, Lesli. This is the perfect place to crack those pre-1950 books -- that's all we read!You're just in time for our read of Huckleberry Finn, starting Monday.
Hi, Lesli, I have a B.A. in English, too. It prepared me for book clubs!
Hi everyone. I am new here. I just read Huck Finn last month so I am looking forward to seeing what everyone has to say about it.
Been a lazy lurker in recent months . trying to get back into actually posting again . Glad to be back .
Julie wrote: "Hi everyone. I am new here. I just read Huck Finn last month so I am looking forward to seeing what everyone has to say about it."Welcome. And equally, we're looking forward to hearing what you have to say about it! Don't be shy, it's more fun when everybody joins in.
Natalie wrote: "Been a lazy lurker in recent months . trying to get back into actually posting again . Glad to be back ."It'll be good to have you back from lurking. I've been wondering whose eyes those were peering out from under some of the posts -- now I know!!!
Hi all, glad to be here.I got the License to Slum known as a liberal arts degree (B.A. in Honours English - wink wink, nudge nudge) and had it awhile before I discovered this website, and I joined this group to assuage my fears that goodreads merely revolved around NYT bestsellers and niche fiction.
I have to state apologetically that I may not engage your reading list unless it intersects with mine or you feature a text I absolutely am guilted into reading. I have read Huck Finn at some hazy point in the past, but will hold my peace about I suppose. However I do look forward to engaging in whatever discussions occur here, and from what I've seen they are all very interesting.
About myself there is not much to say. I'm the classic dissolute aspiring writer type, except that I don't use a laptop, never write in cafes or in public (unless I'm in transit), and have a perverse inclination to write longhand - even though my handwriting is illegible and not nearly as efficient as typing. Hope I haven't made myself unwelcome already, and cheers.
Caleb wrote: "Hi, I'm Caleb. Began reading the classics at the University of Dallas..."Hey Caleb! I worked at UD for two years as a librarian. Small world!
Kate wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Caleb wrote: "Hi, I'm Caleb. Began reading the classics at the University of Dallas, and it was there that I first experienced reading great works in a community. There's nothing..."Hi Lesli, great to see a fellow UD-er part of the group.
Hi, I am a junior conference interpreter who would like to expand her knowledge of English and American literature. I would like to start with the classics - usually everyone knows about them but has never read them.
I thought this would be a good place to start.
I am also interested in French literature, and other majors works from Europe and Asia.
Nice to meet you all!
Marie
Classics and the Western Canon
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Yes I remember the match-ups. The first was "Love in Excess" by Eliza Haywood (non-canonical) and "Emma" by Jane Austen (canonical). The second was "Uncle Tom's Cabin" (non-canonical) and ..."
Yes, it's extremely interesting what comes and goes from the Canon. Some contents are pretty solid, particularly the core Greeks (Homer, Plato, Aristotle, the tragedians), Augustine, Aquinas (definitely in the canon though little read today), etc. But Shakespeare was for about a century not highly regarded, and some books that were viewed as critical a hundred years ago are virtually unknown today (The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin is one such).
Sometimes it's fun to go back and look at old winners of major prizes and see all the books that have faded into virtual nonexistence -- has anybody, for example, read Ten North Frederick by John O'Hara -- the National Book Award winner for fiction in 1956? At the time he was right up there with Hemingway and Faulkner. Or how about the 1957 winner -- The Field of Vision by Wright Morris? (That's why I'm so dubious about the phrase "modern classic" or "instant classic" -- I'm sure those titles were considered as such when they won the prize.)