Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Introductions
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Please introduce yourself~
Thank you for allowing me to join the group. Looking forward to some interesting and stimulating discussion.
Lysergius wrote: "Thank you for allowing me to join the group. Looking forward to some interesting and stimulating discussion."Welcome. The discussion will be even more interesting and stimulating if you aren't shy, but come on in and contribute to it!
I will give this group a try as I really want to read Plato and need some encouragement. I see that I have missed the Transcendentalists, and am disappointed about that! And I also missed Herodotus. :( In my long and checkered past, I have been an editor & indexer (getting my name in the acknowledgements section of other peoples' books!), a librarian, college teacher, researcher (fact checker), and most recently a database manager. I like to think of myself as a "lifelong learner", though my mother would say "professional student". Not a bad thing to be at 65. I hate to say I am retired, but I guess I am since the market for old lady geeks is not a large one. Mostly now, I rescue critters and devote time to my avocation, archaeology. Looking foreward to being here!
Welcome, Lynne! Your career was a very exciting one.
Glad you made it over, Lynne. (She had mentioned in another group that she was getting into Greek philosophy, so I invited her over -- she's a great member of other groups and I'm sure will be equally great here.)
This thread is ages old, but I'll jump in with a comment anyways. I attended this group when you started Chekhov and I am having so much fun already! I am 23 girl with a Romanian heratige but have lived in Denmark since 1999 and I am now attending university. I am studying classical philology, which makes me the more curious and exited to start Republic in a bit.
Thank you for allowing me in to your book-club!
Hello, first-time poster Patrick Murtha here, hailing from Queretaro, Mexico, where I teach English in my semi-retirement. I'm 58, single, a graduate of Yale (BA in American Studies) and Boston University (Master of Arts in Teaching). I read widely in classic literature.
Beatrice wrote: "This thread is ages old, but I'll jump in with a comment anyways. I attended this group when you started Chekhov and I am having so much fun already! Welcome to the group.
I'm delighted that you're enjoying Chekhov, and also that you're looking forward to the Republic.
Your English is excellent for a non-native speaker (I'm assuming with Romanian heritage English wasn't your native language?)
Patrick wrote: "Hello, first-time poster Patrick Murtha here, hailing from Queretaro, Mexico, where I teach English in my semi-retirement. I'm 58, single, a graduate of Yale (BA in American Studies) and Boston Uni..."Semi-retirement at 58, and in a warm climate -- sounds ideal! I just hope you're in an area which isn't one of the dangerous parts of Mexico -- it's such a sad situation in many areas there with all the drug violence.
With your teaching background you're right at home here -- we have a number of teachers here, and my family is loaded with teachers at all levels from kindergarten through post-graduate -- my father, my wife, myself, my daughters, my mother and father in law, my uncle, among many. It's not a lucrative profession, but it's important and satisfying (usually!)
Glad to have you joining us.
Everyman wrote: "Patrick wrote: "Hello, first-time poster Patrick Murtha here, hailing from Queretaro, Mexico, where I teach English in my semi-retirement. I'm 58, single, a graduate of Yale (BA in American Studies..." Fortunately, this is one of the very safest cities and states in Mexico. But for three years I lived and taught in Culiacán, epicenter of the narcotraffic and home base to the infamous Chapo Guzman, whose children in fact attended the school that I worked at. I lived a lifetime in those three years. My Graham Greene period.
I am sure you all know how it is; the more you read, the more you know how little you know.I am a single mum of 2 now adult children living in my adopted country of Canada, born and educated in England. I love learning and reading, and challenging myself to become more educated. I wanted a better education for my children and as such home schooled them in what is 'Classical Home School' until Junior High when my health defeated me. However, I believe they had a good start with what little I could do, and unexpectedly I was raised up a level in my own education.
I struggle with an illness called fibromyalgia which causes my thoughts and ability to express myself to vary from day to day, in what are called fibro-flares. But despite this, I read everyday.
Recently reading The Hunchback of Notre-Dame I became woefully aware of how little I know of the Ancients and how much those of earlier generations knew in comparison. I learnt enough during my years of trying to imbue my children with a love of learning and wisdom to recognise if the person being referred to is an Ancient Greek or Roman or Medieval philosopher, but not enough to completely get the reference.
So here I am, hoping to be brave enough to jump into these waters. I probably won't vote on books until I can discern more but I am looking forward to trying to read along with some of the choices.
Thank you Everyman, that's right my native language is romanian but I speak my second language, danish more fluently. Though, I have always had a special love for English and the literature throughout my school-years so that made me keen to learn it (still learning).
Thank you for the warm welcome.
Patrick wrote: "Hello, first-time poster Patrick Murtha here, hailing from Queretaro, Mexico, where I teach English in my semi-retirement. I'm 58, single, a graduate of Yale (BA in American Studies) and Boston Uni..."Nice to see another Newbie here! Welcome!
I find the "great books" a challenging exercise much of the time and I like the feeling of getting my brain stretched! Glad to see another Newbie here. Great way to start the new year!
Tracey wrote: "I am sure you all know how it is; the more you read, the more you know how little you know.."A perfect thought to accompany our read of Plato starting next week. That's just what Socrates would have said!
Sorry to hear about your health issues, but it's good that you can keep reading. I hope you will not only read along with The Republic, but share your thoughts actively in the discussion forum.
James wrote: "Greetings from Massachusetts (US). I'm a minister, husband, father of 4 and a foster parent. I became interested in Classical works of literature when I began my studies at Knox Theological Seminar..."I'm interested to hear that Knox has a program in their seminary to read the classics. We didn't have such a program, sadly, when I worked at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, but that was quite a while ago. In the past decade or two more law schools have been adding programs in reading great literature, though usually literature centered on the law (Bleak House and Crime and Punishment are often included).
The Republic should be a wonderful text to look at from a theological aspect. Will be eager to hear your thoughts.
Greetings from Athens, Ga. I am a writer and father of two, who happens to teach at a university in order to pay the bills. Looking forward to reading more of the classics and everyone's comments about them. Seems like a fun and very smart group.
Todd wrote: "Greetings from Athens, Ga. I am a writer and father of two, who happens to teach at a university in order to pay the bills. Looking forward to reading more of the classics and everyone's comments a..."Hi Todd--I am here hoping some of the "smart" will rub off! Just hoping I can keep up with The Republic. Those who can read it in Greek have me in awe.
Todd wrote: "Greetings from Athens, Ga. I am a writer and father of two, who happens to teach at a university in order to pay the bills. Looking forward to reading more of the classics and everyone's comments a..."Welcome, Todd. What do you teach?
Looks like the next week will be a good one to stay indoors and read -- I understand that most of the country, including Georgia, will be suffering from unusually cold temperatures. A good chance to spend some time in the sunny Greek isles of 2,500 years ago!
Everyman wrote: "Todd wrote: "Greetings from Athens, Ga. I am a writer and father of two, who happens to teach at a university in order to pay the bills. Looking forward to reading more of the classics and everyone..."Sociology and Criminology mainly. The kinds of things that aren't literature, but certainly grist for it. ;-)
Looking forward to the indoor weather here the next few weeks!
Unfortunately, reading suffered a blow over Christmas as a consequence of happenings which range from trivial to not so ...I can't wait to become reacquainted with my friends in Framley Parsonage and elsewhere. They make me laugh with heartbreaking mirth and they make me cry with equally opposing emotions. I love the characters, yes even the scoundrels. I don't see my relationship with the latter as standing the test of time though.
Hilary wrote: "I can't wait to become reacquainted with my friends in Framley Parsonage and elsewhere..."
What? Who's Framley Parsonage when he's at home?
Framley Parsonage is from The Trollope Project at Reader's Review.
Ah Thomas, I find myself compelled to talk of The Barsetshire Chronicles. They enrich lives. I have seen it. Sadly Trollope doesn't light the blue touch-paper for everyone ...Ok, the truth! I got it in my head that this was a different group so this has no relevance whatsoever; none at all. If I could I would but I can't so I won't so please delete my entirely pointless comment. I have managed to waste time - my own and that of the people who read this. Sorry. That won't come back ...
Thank you Rosemarie for your straightforward answer!
I am sorry that you did not have such a good Christmas. I am almost finished FP and have to be careful not to give anything away. I am really enjoying it.
Hilary wrote: "Ah Thomas, I find myself compelled to talk of The Barsetshire Chronicles. They enrich lives. I have seen it. Sadly Trollope doesn't light the blue touch-paper for everyone ...Ok, the truth! I got..."
Aha! The truth! At last! I'm so glad. We can dispense with Plato now and move on to Finnegans Wake. :>)
Bwah ha ha, Thomas!So NOT Ulysses then. Sad face. Ok ok, Finnegan it is. Or is that a different group?
Thanks Rosemarie. You're too kind! My Kindle breaks and then a family bereavement all on the same day. Then I had to reschedule a hair appointment. (:D)I cannot wait to hit the pages of FP again. What better way to deal with grief than to wrap one's head around the words of Trollope?! Well yes, there is Dickens. Just to laugh out loud when there's no one else around ...
Oh Patrice, you are always too kind. When you say that you didn't necessarily understand, that makes two of us! Really it's merely drivel attempting to look smart and failing dismally.I always admire your thinking patterns. There is such depth of insight that I crave. As for Trollope, you just have to taste and see. The Barsetshire Chronicles (I haven't yet read them all) are often known for their humour. If you are seeking something that is intellectually stimulating and soul searching, Trollope may not be your author of choice.
Sorry, Thomas, that I have shamelessly, well no not shamelessly, clogged up this thread with Trollope. Must do better.
More Trollope...
Hilary wrote: "Thanks Rosemarie. You're too kind! My Kindle breaks and then a family bereavement all on the same day. Then I had to reschedule a hair appointment. (:D)."So sorry to hear of your family bereavement. I know how important family is to you.
Kindle breaking is regrettable (I've had two doing that), but must pales in comparison with losing a family member.
Don't know how important hair appointments are to you -- they were the highlight of my Great Aunt by marriage's life. Me, I avoid going to the barber as long as I possibly can. [g]
Thomas wrote: "Hilary wrote: "I can't wait to become reacquainted with my friends in Framley Parsonage and elsewhere..."
What? Who's Framley Parsonage when he's at home?"
I finally found a classic I've read and Thomas hasn't. Amazing. Astounding. Celebratory!!!
I'm expecting fireworks to go off tonight to celebrate that astonishing accomplishment -- surely there's no more important reason for letting off fireworks!!
Hello All,When Harold Bloom's Western Canon came out, I was a bookish teenager, and aside from my dad, I didn't know anyone else who read 'serious' books, and he only reads non-fiction. My high school English teachers tried their best, and I did read some important young-adult classics at that time, but I didn't have a bridge into the wider literary world, so I'd go to the library and find random books that I thought might be on the list, but I had no actual plan.
Alas, it never occurred to me that I could also borrow that book from the library until I was in my mid-20s. Before that, I would find it in a book store and dismiss its obscene price tag of 40 dollars or more. That was good beer money, or at the very least a college textbook. When I finally did think to look in the library, it was also the time that I discovered that his list had found its way onto the internet, so I also had a way of keeping track of what I had read.
After reading the book and finding the list, I decided to divide it into 4 sections: one 'hard' book like Shakespeare or Dante or luckily for me, Plato's Republic, one novel, currently It Can't Happen Here by Sinclair Lewis, one book of poems, essays or short stories, currently Shelley's complete works, and one book in French.
In case you can't tell, I have a history of learning about things, then taking years to actually follow up on them. I've been meaning to search and see if there was a book club on Goodreads for readers of the canon, and I only searched for them on this day of resolution-making. However, now that I'm in, I'm in, and I look forward to reading with all of you.
Jen wrote: "Hello All,When Harold Bloom's Western Canon came out, I was a bookish teenager, and aside from my dad, I didn't know anyone else who read 'serious' books, and he only reads non-fiction. My high s..."
Very pleased that you finally made the search and found us, just in time for the Republic discussion. But don't take years to decide to join the discussions here -- keep that resolution intact and start as soon as the discussion threads are posted!
Hello everyone,I have recently begun reading what most refer to as "the classics" and am making up for lost time now that I am in my 30s. I had almost quite literally never completed a book until college. I absolutely hated reading for the first 18 years of my life until something "clicked" mentally.
Now I read whenever I can get away with it. I have begun to enjoy poetry as well. (Poetry used to be such a drag!) Analyzing and reflecting on a book is probably my favorite part about reading. I am looking forward to the discussions here.
I'm an 18-year old college student, a lover of books, many of them great classics like Homer, Shakespeare, Melville, Hawthorne, and others - I am moved by the best that literature has to offer. I want to read more classic novels, not just more famous ones like War and Peace and Anna Karenina and others but even more quirky works like Decameron and other masterpieces like Hawthorne's non-Scarlet Letter novels and more.Among my classics I will include philosophy and even some great old histories.
Taryn wrote: "Hello everyone,I have recently begun reading what most refer to as "the classics" and am making up for lost time now that I am in my 30s. I had almost quite literally never completed a book until..."
Welcome to the wonderful world of reading classics! Although at my age I'm somewhat amused by someone only in their 30s needing to make up for lost time. I thought that was a province of we aged ones!
Anyhow, glad you found us.
Anand wrote: "I'm an 18-year old college student, a lover of books, many of them great classics like Homer, Shakespeare, Melville, Hawthorne, and others - I am moved by the best that literature has to offer. I w..."I think you'll find us reading plenty of both major classics and the lesser known ones, such as the Consolation of Philosophy and Apuleius.
I hope you can spend some time here sharing your thoughts without having to take too much time from your official studies.
Everyman wrote: Although at my age I'm somewhat amused by someone only in their 30s needing to make up for lost time. I thought that was a province of we aged ones! Ha!! Ok, I don't blame you. I guess I was referring more to not having read any literature during my "formative" years, which are the times most people are required to read whether they like it or not. So let me say "missed reading experiences" rather than "lost time." Thankfully I have plenty of time going forward.
And thank you for the welcome!
Everyman wrote: "I think you'll find us reading plenty of both major classics and the lesser known ones, such as the Consolation of Philosophy and Apuleius. I hope you can spend some time here sharing your thoughts..."
Thanks a lot. Currently I'm reading the Paradiso. Alongside Suttree, Crime and Punishment, Rabelais' Gargantua and Pantagruel. Lot of big works. I intend to get to Faulkner, Tolstoy. Maybe I'll read Plato and/or Aristotle soon.
Anand wrote: "Currently I'm reading the Paradiso. Alongside Suttree, Crime and Punishment, Rabelais' Gargantua and Pantagruel. Lot of big works. I intend to get to Faulkner, Tolstoy. Maybe I'll read Plato and/or Aristotle soon. "Well, if I can make a plug, I think you won't have a better chance to really read the Republic with understanding than right now with the group, because you have some very knowledgeable posters here who love to be helpful.
We did Dante some time back; the comments are still available if you have any interest in reading them as you read Paradiso (Laurel led that discussion, and she is incredibly knowledgeable about the Comedy.) We've done both Anna Karenina and War and Peace, but none of the others you mention so you'll be ahead of the game when they get selected.
I have been lurking for a few weeks. I did not have time to get to Plato, but your list of past reads enticed me. How I regret missing Chekhov, TS Eliot, the Henriad, and the discussion of War and Peace. They are precisely the kinds of readings I enjoy. I am at that stage in life where most of what I read is a rereading. While the words on the page may remain the same, my interpretation is always fluid. I divide books into those worthy of a reread and those who are forgettable--with no prejudice to anyone else's judgments.
I work part-time as an adjunct lecturer and teach (almost exclusively) "Introduction to Poetry". I have taught "Introduction to Shakespeare" a few times, but there are many who want to teach Shakespeare and few who want to teach poetry. While I have come to better terms with contemporary poetry than Everyman has, I still lament each new edition of a textbook that removes Milton and Keats in favour of lyrics from rockers and hip-hoppers.
And if you are paying for a college education for yourself or your children, I should warn you that most teaching is done by adjuncts, like me, and that we all have various bees in our bonnets that buzz about in no accordance with anyone else's bees.
I have less affinity for 18th century works--speaking very broadly--than for other centuries of the past 500.
Yeah, I wish I had read "The Wasteland" with this group.
Natalie wrote: "I have been lurking for a few weeks. I did not have time to get to Plato, but your list of past reads enticed me. How I regret missing Chekhov, TS Eliot, the Henriad, and the discussion of War and ..."Glad you came out of lurking mode, at least for the moment, and hope to have you more active in future discussions. I'm sure we'll get around to other works that you will appreciate participating in to make up for your missing some. And we've just started a process of occasionally re-reading books (personally, I'm a devotedly committed re-reader), so we may get back to some you mention eventually.
Thank you for the welcome. Do you have a master list of the books you consider or is that the group bookshelf? Did you get your list from Bloom or Hutchens? I would love to see the larger list from which you culled the applicants for reading in the near future.
Natalie wrote: "Thank you for the welcome. Do you have a master list of the books you consider or is that the group bookshelf? Did you get your list from Bloom or Hutchens? I would love to see the larger list from..."We work from the bookshelf. Many sources have been used in deciding what works to put on the bookshelf, including the Great Books series, the Harvard Classics, Bloom's Western Canon, the St. John's College seminar syllabus, Clifton Fadiman's The Lifetime Reading Plan, and others.
The basic criteria are that the work must in some way fit the overall concept of the group, which is books which have at some level been associated with, in the phrase of Robert Hutchins and Mortimer Adler, the "Great Conversation."
In general we try to include those works which have been of value in the development of Western intellectual thought. We exclude books of too technical or too narrow an interest for a general readership (the Great Books series contains a number of such works in the scientific and mathematical fields, for example). We do not include works which do not seem conducive to a general discussion of the work as a whole; collections of poetry, short stories, or essays, for example, though we do include works which contain separate episodes within a unified whole, such as the Canterbury Tales or Decameron, particularly when they are central works of the Western Canon. We also do not address Eastern or African classic works; there are certainly many such works of great intellectual value, but they do not fit within the parameters of this group. We include only works which have endured and stood the "test of time"; we consider the phrase "modern classic" to be oxymoronic.
The bookshelf is, undoubtedly, incomplete, as any such list must be. The moderators are always open to suggestions for additions to the list which are within the parameters of the group's purpose and which we believe would be of value for this group to read and discuss.
Natalie wrote: "I have been lurking for a few weeks. I did not have time to get to Plato, but your list of past reads enticed me. How I regret missing Chekhov, TS Eliot, the Henriad, and the discussion of War and ..."Hi Natalie,
Welcome to this group. I'm excited to see a fellow English faculty here.
I got my Ph.D. in Brit. Lit. Like you, I started as an adjunct and then became a full professor. Taught English for about 18 years before moving to the dark side and becoming a dean and then VP for Academic Services. I retired in 2013.
I grew up in England, attending school from Kindergarten through high school where I was fed a regular diet of Shakespeare and Keats and Shelley and Blake and T.S. Eliot. I loved it and loved teaching Brit. Lit. I still swoon when I recite Nightingale.
My new passion is reading and writing about mythology, especially women's role in myths.
I'm glad you're in this group and look forward to reading your comments.
Classics and the Western Canon
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Thanks, Theresa.
I love the Demeter/Persephone myth. It's the only Greek myth that privileges the female position and marginalized the male characters. The myth's fundamental concern is with its female protagonists, primarily with the mother and daughter and how they cope with the trauma of the abduction. We don't hear Persephone's voice until after she emerges from the Underworld, but Demeter encounters a series of females, each of whom assists her in her progression and eventual emergence from her own underworld. An example of strong female bonds and a network of support.
I would love to discuss it with you further if you're intersted.