Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Introductions
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Please introduce yourself~
Everyman wrote: "BTW, Marian and others, Coursera is offering, from the University of Pennsylvania, two courses in ancient philosophy, one on Plato & His Predecessorshttps://www.coursera.org/learn/plato
and one on..."
Thanks for the links, I'll look into those!
Marian wrote: "Welcome, Borum! It's certainly never too late to discover great literature, and I would say you're way ahead of many people (me, for one) on the Greek classics. :)"Probably it's because I started from the Greek period. I'm working up the reading list and it sort of feels like I'm time traveling. I haven't read anything from the Middle ages, though.
Hopefully, I would get there someday before I pop my clogs. :-)
Everyman wrote: "Borum wrote: "I just found out about the St. John's College reading list 2 years ago from someone who said she wants to study as long as she lives. She didn't actually follow up on that dream but s..."Yes, the first two years are full of marvellous books but I fear it's going to take much more than two years (I've been reading for more than 2 years and I still haven't finished my freshman year reading list)
Interesting you've picked up on Seneca, because I was wondering why Seneca's work didn't show up on the list.
St. John's curriculum seems to offer some great courses on science or music as well, but unfortunately, most of these essays aren't available in Korea. (Probably not many people read them anywhere these days) However, since my main (though not my only) weakness and bucket list consist of the humanities, I love filing in my blanks or just cluelessly diving into the unknown. I hope I can learn more from the discussions in this group, though. :-)
The Britannica "Great Book" set has a Ten Year Reading Plan, which I started in 1975. I'm on year six.
Roger wrote: "The Britannica "Great Book" set has a Ten Year Reading Plan, which I started in 1975. I'm on year six."Aaaah, I saw the list behind Adler's book (I don't remember if it was a Ten Year Reading Plan, but it probably consists of the Great Books) and it seemed much more inclusive (and much more intimidating!). I really wonder on whose reading pace the title 'Ten Year Reading Plan' was based.
I read both the Lattimore and Fagles translation of Iliad and it didn't take any less time on re-reading it. (In fact, I think many Classics tend to take up more time on re-reading and I tend to read slower as I age! Gasp!)
But hey, what's the rush? Although there is something to be said in Duke Ellington's "I don't need time, I need a deadline". It's good for motivation. :-)
I recently found out about this group and it looks like exactly the kind of reading group I was looking for, so I just joined! I live in Vermont where I am a professor of Spanish. When I have time to read for pleasure (not often during the semester) I'm always trying to catch up on the Western classics. I'm very excited to read On the Nature of Things (which I've already started) and follow your comments and discussions, and perhaps contribute when I can. I do feel like I arrived late to the party, since you guys already read Ulysses, Faust, Moby Dick, and Don Quixote (which I just finished rereading the first part). But I look forward to reading many other classic works and participating in group discussions.
Ignacio wrote: "I recently found out about this group and it looks like exactly the kind of reading group I was looking for, so I just joined! I live in Vermont where I am a professor of Spanish. When I have time ..."We're delighted that you found us. Sorry that you missed many of the great discussions we're already had, but we'll be looking forward to your participation in future discussions.
Where in Vermont are you teaching, if you're willing to share that?
I teach in Burlington, at the University of Vermont. I teach Spanish and Latin American literature.
Ignacio wrote: "I teach in Burlington, at the University of Vermont. I teach Spanish and Latin American literature."It's too bad you weren't here for our reading of Don Quixote.
I know! And I just finished rereading the first part! I'm planning to post a review soon, but I want to look at your discussions as well. Still, I'm no expert on Don Quixote - my field is contemporary Latin American. I just enjoy it immensely.
Hi,I recently found and joined this club thanks to Borum.
I live in Seoul, Korea with my wife and a daughter and my job is financial product sales.
I'm into these classical books after I read "How to read abook" by M. J. Adler. Since then I have read a few classical books in English originals or English translations of my interest such as: The wealth of nation by A. Smith, all of Jane Austen's completed novels, Iliad, Odyssey, some Charles Dickens' novels, Machiavelli's Prince and Discourses, The Republic of Plato, etc. Now I'm reading Aristotle's politics.
Sometimes I feel it takes too long for an ordinary Korean who have learned English only in schools to read through the classical books in English(I couldn't read more than 80 pages of Aristotle's politics last december), but I dare say it pays.
I hope I will be able to share what I learn and feel in reading books and to listen to what you do.
Ignacio wrote: "I know! And I just finished rereading the first part! I'm planning to post a review soon, but I want to look at your discussions as well. Still, I'm no expert on Don Quixote - my field is contempor..."DQ was so much fun the first time around, we should do it again!
Carlos Fuentes and Gabriel Garcia Marquez are two of my favorite authors -- unfortunately, they're a little outside the scope of this group. In a hundred years I bet we'll be reading the Death of Artemio Cruz and One Hundred Years of Solitude. I will be a hale and hearty 140-something. It will be worth the wait. :)
Great to have you here, Ignacio!
Thank you! :-) Carlos Fuentes and García Márquez are tremendous authors, for sure, as are Cortázar and Borges (two of my favorites). P.S. just posted some random thoughts (I hesitate to call it a 'review') on DQ.
Hong wrote: "Hi,I recently found and joined this club thanks to Borum.
I live in Seoul, Korea with my wife and a daughter and my job is financial product sales.
I'm into these classical books after I read "H..."
Welcome! We're pleased that you found us.
We take more time reading our books than most groups here, in order to give plenty of time for reflection and discussion, so the reading pace would seem to fit very nicely with your English reading speed.
Patrice wrote: Did you read DQ in Spanish or English? I pretty much always read the Spanish books in Spanish, since it's my first language. It would be very uncomfortable to read them in English translation, so I try to avoid that unless I don't have access to the original. I wonder if it might make it difficult for book discussion, since I would always want to refer to the Spanish original.
In response to Thomas's earlier post: I would love to talk more about Latin American authors but I don't want to hijack the discussion. Maybe there's an area of the group where we can talk about canonical Latin American authors, or how some of these authors have been influenced by and in turn influenced the Western canon (for example, the obvious influence of Joyce on so many Latin American novelists - in turn, the influence of García Márquez on Salman Rushdie, Toni Morrison, etc.)
I formally joined this group a month or two back, but I intend to start joining the reading/discussion with Lucretius. I'm American-born, an English teacher at present in the Republic of Georgia with an academic background (and possibly future career) in history. I read a great deal of philosophy, folk literature, and historical theology, and am now slowly re-immersing myself in literary fiction. Basically, since graduate school, I'm lonely without someone to talk to about whatever I'm reading, and I'm pleased to see a group so active.
Patrice wrote: "Didn't Cervantes say that reading in translation is like looking at the wrong side of a tapestry..."That's a nice image! In a metaphor for our times, reading something in the original is like seeing it in hi-definition.
Canonical authors are often highly translatable, so with Cervantes, Borges, or Neruda, I don't think you're missing that much. Then there are authors considered absolute masters by Spanish speakers but who are very little known to English speakers, like Juan Rulfo and César Vallejo. That is because the beauty of their writing does not translate well (Rulfo was a master of understatement, and Vallejo experimented with words in his poem Trilce).
Hong wrote: "Hi,I recently found and joined this club thanks to Borum.
I live in Seoul, Korea with my wife and a daughter and my job is financial product sales.
I'm into these classical books after I read "H..."
Welcome!
It's much better to read slowly and absorb the book's content than just skim through it or gulp it down in such a rush that you get an indigestion. ;-) I love reading slowly. If I wanted to have a fast paced reading, I'd just pick up the most recent bestseller or just read the digest. You've came to the right place.
Rex wrote: "I formally joined this group a month or two back, but I intend to start joining the reading/discussion with Lucretius. I'm American-born, an English teacher at present in the Republic of Georgia wi..."Same here. Not many people read the classics these days (actually not many people read any books these days;;), at least not where I live (Korea). I joined an internet community reading English books but they were mostly into bestsellers. It gets lonely being a classic reader sometimes.
Patrice wrote: "I think it would be a great asset to a discussion to have someone who understands the original language. Didn't Cervantes say that reading in translation is like looking at the wrong side of a tape..."That's a wonderful expression! Everytime I read the footnotes in the Greek classics where the translator is not so sure of the author's original words or refutes the former translation(or interpretation), it's really frustrating. I'm reading 'L'ecume des Jours' by Boris Vian in French and English right now and I know the difficulty of translating such an unorthodox work (it uses neologisms and metaphors that remind you of Lewis Caroll or Marquez) but the translations are, like Plato's shadows in the cave, just traces or images of the original brilliant light. I wish I could read Marquez's works in Spanish. That would be awesome.
Ignacio wrote: "Patrice wrote: "Didn't Cervantes say that reading in translation is like looking at the wrong side of a tapestry..."That's a nice image! In a metaphor for our times, reading something in the orig..."
Juan Rulfo and Cesar Vallejo. Nope, never heard of them, but am dying to find out. Thank you for the introduction. It's a shame that the authors with the most spectacular flair for their native language are usually the ones who are most undervalued internationally because of the difficulty in achieving a comparable translation.
Borum wrote: "Patrice wrote: "I think it would be a great asset to a discussion to have someone who understands the original language. Didn't Cervantes say that reading in translation is like looking at the wron..."Wow. We're so lucky to have him with us, and I've heard he does children's parties as well :-)
Ignacio wrote: "I wonder if it might make it difficult for book discussion, since I would always want to refer to the Spanish original. ..."Almost all the books we read are available free to read in your browser from gutenberg.org, so even if you read in Spanish, if you wanted to quote a passage you could open the book in a separate browser tab and probably fairly easily find the passage and cut and paste. I do that all the time to quote from books. Even if I'm reading them, as I usually do, in hard copy, I usually have a copy open in a separate tab as I'm posting so I can cut and paste passages, remind myself of events, check the spelling of names, etc.
Rex wrote: "I formally joined this group a month or two back, but I intend to start joining the reading/discussion with Lucretius..."Excellent. Will be delighted to have you join us. You're right that with this group it's hard to be lonely -- there's always something interesting going on, and if there's a momentary lull, all you need to do is make a post or raise a question about the book to get the action reignited.
I'm sure there's a story in how you wound up in the Republic of Georgia. It's not, or at least I think it's not, a place that most Americans would think of going to.
Thank you for your warm reception, Everyman :-DAlthough my reading speed is slow, I think I can begin to read in advance the books and take part in discussions.
Thank you for introducing me to this nice group, Borum.I agree with your expression, "the right place" ^^
Ignacio wrote: "Patrice wrote: "Didn't Cervantes say that reading in translation is like looking at the wrong side of a tapestry..."That's a nice image! In a metaphor for our times, reading something in the orig..."
Unfortunately I couldn't find any e-books by Juan Rulfo (I live in Korea so it's hard to get any paperbacks in Spanish) but I found some books by Vallejo in kindle format. They are bilingual so I hope I can compare them in both languages. I got the Malanga Chasing Vallejo. There aren't any customer reviews yet, so I'm a little worried but maybe I'll be the first one to review it!
Patrice wrote: "Luckily we have our own Greek translator, Thomas! From what I hear from people who know Ancient Greek there is
something very special about the language."
You are too kind, Patrice. I'm more of a long-suffering student than a translator. As for children's parties, I'm still available. The schedule is wide open if you need someone to lead a dithyrambic chorus in a bounce house.
I took a year of Koine Greek in college, but I barely remember anything of it, whereas I'm sure my wife is still fairly competent. She's also far ahead of me with Georgian. I only took a year of Latin, but that's proven much easier to maintain.The story of how I ended up in Georgia isn't particularly extraordinary. I mentioned I was into folk literature; I read quite a few national epics and listened to music from around the world and that sort of thing, and the Caucasus region got my interest. Later I looked into teaching English overseas, and it turned out that Georgia has a government program for bringing in native English speakers to co-teach without requiring TEFL certification. That immediately went to the top of my list, and after I got married, I persuaded my wife to join me overseas. One reason I love the job is there's so much time to read after school. We're in our second year now, but my wife's pregnant, due in June, so it looks like we'll be headed back to family in the USA (Mississippi) this summer and looking for jobs that actually pay us something.
Knowledge of the history and culture of this part of the world is not likely to be useful in this group unless we pick up Lermontov, but I'm very happy to talk about it at any opportunity.
Let's try this again. Technically, I did already join this group two years ago but l just couldn't find the time (hint: motivation) to do any of the readings. And so I left the group, my metaphoric tail dangling between my legs. But now I'm back, and this time, I'm sticking around!
I did make a post to this thread two years ago, but I should probably reintroduce myself. My name is Kristian, I'm 24, and I currently live in San Francisco, which is also where I work for a small startup as a software engineer. Just like everybody else in the city around my age (and gender).
I used to read a lot back in high school but I lost my way entirely in college, and I'm only just recovering. If you ever take a look at my shelf, you'll probably be amazed at the sheer number of books I've read. It's 24, also my age. I made up this dumb rule in my head when I first joined Goodreads that if I couldn't remember any details from the books I've previously read, I couldn't honestly say that I've actually "read" them. Such a dumb rule.
The thing is, I hadn't read a book in so long when I joined this site that I just couldn't recall anything I've read back then. I decided to start out my Goodreads career with a nice clean slate of having zero books read. That explains the 24 books I've read since then.
The 24 also tells me that I should probably read more. And that's why I'm here, to read more good books.
KG wrote: "Let's try this again. Technically, I did already join this group two years ago but l just couldn't find the time (hint: motivation) to do any of the readings. And so I left the group, my metaphor..."
Welcome Redux!
We'll certainly be very happy to help make sure that you don't fall off the wagon again. At least, that is, as long as you do your part and participate in the discussions!
KG wrote: "Let's try this again. Technically, I did already join this group two years ago but l just couldn't find the time (hint: motivation) to do any of the readings. And so I left the group, my metaphor..."
That's a really interesting rule, actually. The reason I started actively recording the books I read in Goodreads this year is because when I looked back in December, I couldn't remember what books I read in 2015, not to mention the details in the books!
I could remember up to about 20 and then I had to look up my blog or other notes I took. 24 would be a good start, too, because in about a hundred books I read in 2014, only about 30 were really worth re-reading. Classics seem to renew themselves everytime you read it so don't worry about the numbers!
Though I DO envy the number age-wise.... Sigh.... 24.... Even if I was 10 years younger, I would still be in my late 20s.. It's even more depressing because in Korea they add another year on New Year's Day, not on your birthday. (My birthday's in September so I feel cheated)
Everyman wrote: "Ignacio wrote: "I recently found out about this group and it looks like exactly the kind of reading group I was looking for, so I just joined! I live in Vermont where I am a professor of Spanish. W..."In yours classes about LatinAmerica Literature, do you include brazilian literature? I am curious because I am from Brazil.
By the way if you like latin authors that have been influenced by Joyce you will probably like Guimarães Rosa, ever heard of him?
Ignacio wrote: "Thank you! :-) Carlos Fuentes and García Márquez are tremendous authors, for sure, as are Cortázar and Borges (two of my favorites). P.S. just posted some random thoughts (I hesitate to call it a '..."I haven´t read any of those, but they all seem wonderful. I will probably read A Hundred Years of Solitude this year. What book by Fuentes would you recommend?
Thank you for these questions about Latin American authors - as you can imagine, I love discussing Latin American literature. BUT since this is the "Introductions" thread, I'm going to move this discussion to the Tea Room and create a thread on Spanish & Latin American classics. I will answer these questions there and it can be a place to talk about these authors and works.
Everyman wrote: "KG wrote: "Let's try this again. Technically, I did already join this group two years ago but l just couldn't find the time (hint: motivation) to do any of the readings. And so I left the group, ..."
Oh yeah, I'm extra motivated this time around and bought my copy of Lucretius before the new year rolled in. I guess we're starting our reading today! I'm pretty excited about that.
Borum wrote: "KG wrote: "Let's try this again. Technically, I did already join this group two years ago but l just couldn't find the time (hint: motivation) to do any of the readings. And so I left the group, ..."
Hey Borum, it's a pleasure to meet you here.
I definitely agree with you about rereading the classics and unearthing new insights every time we read them. I do a reading of my favorite book, To Kill a Mockingbird, every couple of years, and in my latest reading, I only just realized how funny and sarcastic the book was! I'm not sure why I never picked up on this detail before.
And I wouldn't worry too much about age. If anything, I still lack the requisite life experience and wisdom to appreciate books at their very pinnacle.
Hello everyone,I was thinking for good 20 minutes this morning how to introduce myself to this group. To me, it's almost impossible to describe anyone in a few words... but, here we go.
Being a reader and being a mother is probably that best defines me.
My husband and I have two beautiful Eurasian children. My son's name is Aristotelis (the poor thing had such a hard time learning how to spell his full name, which totals in 27 letters), and My daughter is Sofia. I am a proud Korean living in the States with a husband who is Greek. So, you can guess where our children's name came to be that.
I have ALWAYS loved to read. My mother who often forgot to turn the stove off, or pick up her two children imparted a love of books.
I have received my second Master's degree a few years ago. My appetite for learning new things seems never cease, and I have actually wanted to attend St. John's College. but, I have put that plan away for another ten years until my younger kiddo goes off to college.
Anyway, I just want to say that I am so happy to be here reading your thoughts and hopefully reading along with you all.
(please overlook any misspelled words, grammatical errors, and etc. It's been one tough night receiving 58 phone calls from my mother-in-law who has alzheimer's disease)
Nicole wrote: "Hello everyone,I was thinking for good 20 minutes this morning how to introduce myself to this group. To me, it's almost impossible to describe anyone in a few words... but, here we go.."
Welcome to the group. It sounds as though in addition to reader and mother, you should have added lifetime learner your list of what defines you, especially if you want to tackle St. Johns in ten years!
What are your Masters degrees in?
Everyman wrote: "Nicole wrote: "Hello everyone,I was thinking for good 20 minutes this morning how to introduce myself to this group. To me, it's almost impossible to describe anyone in a few words... but, here w..."
Actually, you're right about that!
I will definitely use that term to describe myself in future (smile).
I have M. Ed. in children's development and early education, and second M.Ed. in special education with learning therapy certification for Dyslexic. I am about to start third master's degree in library science, and pursue one of my dreams, which is being a school librarian.
Nicole wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Nicole wrote: "Hello everyone,I was thinking for good 20 minutes this morning how to introduce myself to this group. To me, it's almost impossible to describe anyone in a few wor..."
Very impressive. And I love librarians!
Nicole wrote: "Hello everyone,I was thinking for good 20 minutes this morning how to introduce myself to this group. To me, it's almost impossible to describe anyone in a few words... but, here we go.
Being a ..."
Hi, Nicole~
Wow, you sure took your time! I've been waiting so long for you to join in the fun! It's probably because you're such an impressive person! ;-)
She's the one that introduced me to the St. John's Reading List and being a lifetime learner who is much older than I am, she was my inspiration to keep studying no matter when (or where).
Thank you so much for that.
Wow! 10 years~ Actually, I've reading for more than 2 years and I still havent' finished half of the freshman reading list...sigh... I guess it's probably going to take a slow reader like me 20 years or more to get through the whole 4 year curriculum. :-)
But why the wait? Join in the fun now! We started reading Lucretius this week and there's a lively discussion there. I think you'll love it! I'm reading it for the second time and it's much better than the first time because now I have lots of people I can share it with!
Hi, I am Kerstin, I am married with two grown sons. I've slowly been making my way through the western canon off and on, and I am hoping in joining this group I will be enticed to pick up the pace :)
Kerstin wrote: "Hi, I am Kerstin, I am married with two grown sons. I've slowly been making my way through the western canon off and on, and I am hoping in joining this group I will be enticed to pick up the pace :)"Welcome to the group. We're delighted to have you join us. Though I'm not sure we'll help you pick up the pace -- we tend to read the canon fairly slowly in order to give plenty of time to discuss and re-read as we go along. We may only do five or six major works a year, but we do them in depth and with some outstanding discussions. But the pace does mean that you can fairly easily catch up with our current read, Lucretius's On the Nature of Things (or On the Nature of the Universe) since we're only on week two of a six week read.
If you don't have the book, while you're getting it there are several copies online you can read on your computer or download to an e-reader, tablet, or smartphone.
We look forward to having you join us!
Hello, I am Kate from Utah. Now that I am in my forties, I have become more selective in my reading ( wish I had started earlier in my life). I gravitate towards 19th century classics and I am half way through Our Mutual Friend and loving every moment of it.
Other favorites are The Woman in White, Far From the Madding Crowd, and Les Miserables.
I look forward to exploring other authors here and expanding my library.
Other favorites are The Woman in White, Far From the Madding Crowd, and Les Miserables.
I look forward to exploring other authors here and expanding my library.
Kate wrote: "Hello, I am Kate from Utah. Now that I am in my forties, I have become more selective in my reading ( wish I had started earlier in my life). I gravitate towards 19th century classics and I am half..."Welcome, Kate. Actually, your forties aren't too bad a time to get into reading the classics -- I find that they read quite differently as I age than they did in my younger years.
You named novels in your post -- are you equally into non-fiction? We do read a fair amount of other genres here, as you can see if you look at the "read" shelf on our bookshelf. If you haven't yet ventured far beyond classic fiction, I think you may be pleasantly surprised.
Everyman wrote: "Kate wrote: "Hello, I am Kate from Utah. Now that I am in my forties, I have become more selective in my reading ( wish I had started earlier in my life). I gravitate towards 19th century classics ..."
I enjoy non-fiction as well and hope to read more this year as the past several years I have concentrated on 19th century British authors.
Some of the non-fiction I have enjoyed were Ava's Man by Rick Bragg, The Professor and the Madman by Simon Winchester and Reading Lolita in Tehran by Azar Nafisi.
I enjoy non-fiction as well and hope to read more this year as the past several years I have concentrated on 19th century British authors.
Some of the non-fiction I have enjoyed were Ava's Man by Rick Bragg, The Professor and the Madman by Simon Winchester and Reading Lolita in Tehran by Azar Nafisi.
Kate wrote: "The Professor and the Madman by Simon Winchester "I quite enjoyed this one, as well as Winchester's book about Krakatoa. Glad to have you here, Kate!
Hello! In college I went on a date with this girl who introduced me to the idea and history of classical education. About a year later I asked that girl to marry me and we've been building a life together ever since. We have one son, Calvin, who is approaching his first birthday and couldn't be cuter. While a native to Southern California we just moved to Upstate New York to seek a cost of living conducive to a single income. I currently work in Inventory Control and love the company I keep.
My undergraduate education is in Biblical Studies and I desire to pursue a master's degree in the Western Canon (soon?).
I have recently realized how pretentious I have acted in the past and hope this group will encourage me in the habit of reading and listening well, while engendering a sense of wonder and humility.
Here's to a great year!
Classics and the Western Canon
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Authors mentioned in this topic
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John Ciardi (other topics)
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https://www.coursera.org/learn/plato
and one on Aristotle and His Successors,
https://www.coursera.org/learn/aristotle
They both start in January, according to the course descriptions, though no specific date is given, and they don't look as well developed at this point as most Coursera courses, which usually have a timeline and video introduction by this point. Don't worry about the "financial aid" comment -- the courses are (unless their policies have changed) free unless you want a Certificate of Completion, which does cost something. Some people like to have these for their resumes, and some feel an obligation to support the site by buying one, but I never bother personally.