Classics and the Western Canon discussion

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message 551: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 7718 comments Welcome, Margaret. Sounds as though your tastes and background will be a perfect fit for us!


message 552: by Martha (new)

Martha (mabadie) | 1 comments Hi and thank you for starting this group and then for letting me in. I am a high school English teacher (and I moonlight-adjunct in Freshman Comp at a local Community College). I'm excited!! I don't have a classical background at all, just stumbled on them during Grad School. I'll read almost anything (even the phone book if I'm bored). My current theory: It's all in Homer, everything. All the themes I've ever encountered seem to be already nailed by Homer. Except the Holocaust -- even he couldn't have predicted that, well, and child soldiers -- I don't think he imagined that possible either. So, sadly, I guess it's not all in Homer any more. However, I do believe Socrates somehow might have expected both the Holocaust and the horrible exploitation of child soldiers.
I love my job, I'm a happy (if, silly) good Catholic, and thank you again for starting such a group and letting me in it.


message 553: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 7718 comments Martha wrote: "Hi and thank you for starting this group and then for letting me in. "

We're delighted that you found us!

My current theory: It's all in Homer, everything. All the themes I've ever encountered seem to be already nailed by Homer.

I can't argue with that much in terms of literary themes, though if I were pressed I would probably have to add in the tragedians for thematic completeness: I don't recall the Oedipus complex arising in Homer, for example.

And if you go beyond literary themes to philosophical thought, I think you have to add in Plato.

Overall, though, your general concept is entirely correct; there's very little, if anything, in Western literature and thought that can't be traced back to the Greeks.


message 554: by Margaret (new)

Margaret Langstaff (margaretjeanlangstaff) | 2 comments This kind of interchange is music to my ears. Life among the barbarians is lonely for the literary-- sigh. How good it is to know these things are still taken seriously and discussed somewhere.


message 555: by Sasha (new)

Sasha I had this whole idea that maybe Patroclus could sortof count as a child soldier, but I looked it up and my bad: he was older than Achilles.


message 556: by Poppy (new)

Poppy | 2 comments Can't provide reliable sources right now, but didn't Sparta send their boys into battle as young as possible? Not sure if they were honestly child soldiers - they may have started training as children, but not have been sent into battle until they were counted as adults.


message 557: by Sasha (new)

Sasha Good point, Poppy, but according to Wikipedia (for what that's worth) Spartan men weren't eligible for service until they turned 18. I was surprised too! But we were both thinking of military training, which was famously harsh and did start at age 7.


Susanna - Censored by GoodReads (susannag) The training started early (seven, I think), but the service wasn't until later, as I understand it.


message 559: by Thomas (new)

Thomas | 5030 comments Everyman wrote: "I can't argue with that much in terms of literary themes, though if I were pressed I would probably have to add in the tragedians for thematic completeness: I don't recall the Oedipus complex arising in Homer, for example. "

And the comedians. Unless Elpenor getting drunk and falling off the roof of Circe's house qualifies.


message 560: by Thomas (new)

Thomas | 5030 comments Elizabeth wrote: "I hope to contribute to the group, but am frankly a bit intimidated with all the St John's education that I have seen in the postings. I have learned so much in the Boethius discussion (I am reading to catch up at the moment) that I hope to add some possible insights of my own. "

No no no. No intimidation from the Johnnies here. We're very friendly and most of us graduated at the bottom of the class anyway. :)

Please feel free to join in at any time! Everyone has something valuable to contribute, and I'm sure we all have things to learn from you.


message 561: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 7718 comments Elizabeth wrote: "Greetings from a new member in southern Arizona. I am a CPA and really have no formal training in literature. In college I had taken a few literature courses out of interest, but since that is ov..."

Welcome, Elizabeth! My father was a CPA, and I was a corporate VP finance, and we were both readers and lovers of the classics, so you're in good company.


message 562: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 7718 comments Thomas wrote: "No no no. No intimidation from the Johnnies here. We're very friendly and most of us graduated at the bottom of the class anyway. :)

Please feel free to join in at any time! Everyone has something valuable to contribute, and I'm sure we all have things to learn from you.
"


I absolutely echo that. Everybody is not only invited but encouraged to participate early and often!


message 563: by Sasha (new)

Sasha I don't know what St John's means; welcome Elizabeth!


message 564: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 7718 comments Alex wrote: "I don't know what St John's means; welcome Elizabeth!"

St. John's means St. John's college, which initiated the modern concept of the Great Books curriculum in the US.
http://www.stjohnscollege.edu/academi...


message 565: by Lisa (new)

Lisa (anzlitlovers) Hello, I'm Lisa and I've been reading books from these assorted lists on and off throughout my life. I live in Australia so classic books from our literary heritage form part of my must-read list too. I've joined this list because I read many of these books when I was too inexperienced as a reader to appreciate them fully, and I'm hoping that conversations here will help me decide which ones are worth re-reading. I belong to the Yahoo Reading Group which is working its way through the entire La Comedie Humaine as well as the Yahoo Classics, C19 & C20th reading groups where I enjoy discovering lesser-known classic books for The Great Conversation too. I blog (nearly) all my reading on my blog (http://anzlitlovers.wordpress.com).


message 566: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 7718 comments Lisa wrote: "Hello, I'm Lisa and I've been reading books from these assorted lists on and off throughout my life. I live in Australia so classic books from our literary heritage form part of my must-read list ..."

Welcome, Lisa. I'm glad you found us.


message 567: by Laurel (new)

Laurel Hicks (goodreadscomlaurele) | 2438 comments Lisa wrote: "Hello, I'm Lisa and I've been reading books from these assorted lists on and off throughout my life. I live in Australia so classic books from our literary heritage form part of my must-read list ..."

I learned something new from your excellent blog, Lisa; I did not know that Katherine Mansfield was from New Zealand. Welcome aboard!


message 568: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 7718 comments Laurele wrote: "I learned something new from your excellent blog, Lisa; I did not know that Katherine Mansfield was from New Zealand. Welcome aboard!
"


Also Ngaio Marsh!


message 569: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 7718 comments Lisa wrote: "Hello, I'm Lisa and I've been reading books from these assorted lists on and off throughout my life. I live in Australia so classic books from our literary heritage form part of my must-read list ..."

I was amused to see your latest entry dated July 4; it's still the afternoon of July 3rd here!


message 570: by Robert (new)

Robert (chefswieder) | 3 comments Hello everyone-

I am a classically trained Chef from Nashville, Tennessee. I love to read anything that will further my much lacking college education. I am usually reading 3 different books at a time, mostly history of some sort, but am open to anything that is interesting. I got really interested in reading through the western canon when I started looking for a more directed reading plan to follow. I will probably not have much to add to conversation, but I appreciate being able to follow the conversation and learn.


message 571: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 7718 comments Robert wrote: "Hello everyone-"

Welcome, Robert. Don't assume that you won't have much to add -- everybody comes to this group with their own unique set of experiences, knowledge, and wisdom, and we've found that everybody can have valuable things to offer. If you don't think you have much to contribute in terms of adding to the discussion, at least you will probably have some questions here and there, and I encourage you to feel free to ask them -- sometimes the most seemingly basic question -- "what do you think the author meant by ____" can spark a rich and rewarding discussion.

These books are great because they weren't written just for a specialized audience or just for scholars -- they were written for everybody. So dive in and share your thoughts and questions freely. We're a friendly group -- nobody will think less of you for knowing less than somebody else. How, after all, do people learn except by inquiry and asking questions?

So welcome! (And that little comment was meant not just for Robert but for all those people here who think they need to be lurkers because they don't have anything worthwhile to say. It just ain't true!)


message 572: by Cassie (last edited Jul 19, 2011 08:49PM) (new)

Cassie (espacesinfinis) | 3 comments Hi everyone. Though by volume I read a great deal of diversionary fiction these days, I very dearly love the Great Books, and so this seemed a good group to join. I was an undergraduate at St. John's College, am a grad student with some of the old luminaries of the Hutchins-era Committee on Social Thought who persist at the University of Chicago, and work for Shimer College, the three of which together I jokingly refer to as the unholy triumvirate of the Great Books. I also worked for an organization that accredits colleges with strong core curricula for a while, and have enjoyed a few conferences for the Association for Core Texts and Courses, which I encourage anyone who is a professor in this group to check out.

Coming from my St. John's background, I really enjoy looking at how different Great Books colleges and programs decide to pare down what is canonical, which always has to be done because of time constraints and is probably done more because of semi-intentional judgments of which things are most worth reading about. There are a mess of social science texts that Shimer uses that I hope to have time to read, eventually, which would never have been included in my own undergraduate education because they would have been utterly at odds with the rhetoric of that curriculum. But I'm pretty nerdy that way. I also firmly believe that, with every book in this category one reads, one becomes aware of five more books that one really ought to read in order to be able to convince oneself that the proper effort to be educated and to fully understand the human condition. If that makes any sense.


message 573: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 7718 comments Cassie wrote: "Hi everyone. Though by volume I read a great deal of diversionary fiction these days, I very dearly love the Great Books, and so this seemed a good group to join. I was an undergraduate at St. Jo..."

Welcome, and welcome to another Johnnie (which campus, which year? I'm Annapolis '66; Thomas was Santa Fe, but I don't know what year).

Looks as though you'll certainly fit in well here, and just in time for our reading of the Republic, which starts next week.


message 574: by Cassie (new)

Cassie (espacesinfinis) | 3 comments I may need to get the Masters Thesis under way before I get too involved here, but I'm A '03, and pleased to be here.


message 575: by Stewart (last edited Jul 20, 2011 02:32PM) (new)

Stewart | 1 comments Hello.

My name is Stewart, and I read books.

There, that gets the introduction out of the way.

I joined my first goodreads group recently - 1001 Books to Read Before You Die. Given that we are going through them at the rate of 1 per month, I'm not sure I'm going to get there.

I thought that I should up my rate, and looked around for more reading group. This group looks really interesting.

I see that the next book is Plato's Republic for the 27th July. I'm sure I have a copy kicking around somewhere.

Can I just check? Am I right in thinking that I don't need to have read the book by the 27th, but rather, that there will be a reading shedule published indicating the rate at which we go through the book, starting on the 27th?


message 576: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 7718 comments Stewart wrote: "Hello.

My name is Stewart, and I read books.


Welcome! Just add "and talk about them" to "I read books" and you're perfect for us!

I joined my first goodreads group recently - 1001 Books to Read Before You Die. Given that we are going through them at the rate of 1 per month, I'm not sure I'm going to get there."

Given that that would take more than 83 years, I'm quite sure I wouldn't get there!

Can I just check? Am I right in thinking that I don't need to have read the book by the 27th, but rather, that there will be a reading shedule published indicating the rate at which we go through the book, starting on the 27th?

That's correct. I will post the schedule soon (thanks for reminding me!), but yes, we read in one or occasionally two week chunks, and discussion on each chunk can start the day the topic for it is posted, usually on Tuesday evening. For the Republic, the first reading will be Book 1, and so people can start posting about Book 1 on the 27th. You can plan to read it before then so you're ready to start posting right away, or you can wait and read it after the 27th, but if you do, and if you read the thread, there may be spoilers.

Nothing on the later books can be posted until those threads are put up according to the schedule. We're strict about no spoilers here.


message 577: by Snævar (new)

Snævar Hreinsson (snaevar) Hello all,

My name is Snævar and I just joined the group; intend to follow along starting with Plato on 27th. I am originally from Iceland, but after attending college in the US I decided to stick around for a few more years. That was 17 years ago, and this has long since become home sweet home.
I have always loved literature, but never been much of a reader until about 2 years ago when I finally ran out of excuses not to read, and began to dig into some of the classics. I began by reading all of Proust's Remembrance of Things Past, and absolutely loved it. There are authors and then there is Proust.
I look forward to sharing my reading experiences with the rest of the group.


message 578: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 7718 comments Snævar wrote: "Hello all,

My name is Snævar and I just joined the group; intend to follow along starting with Plato on 27th. I am originally from Iceland, but after attending college in the US I decided to stic..."


Welcome! Glad you joined us just in time for the Republic discussion.


message 579: by Brant (new)

Brant | 2 comments Longtime lurker who just realized I never introduced myself on this thread. I read Moby Dick along with the group but quickly fell behind so didn't do any posting (I have two young kids (1 and 4) so my reading time can be sporadic). I'm an attorney in Washington DC who loves the classics but also likes to intersperse them with nonfiction and contemporary fiction to mix things up.


message 580: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 7718 comments Brant wrote: "Longtime lurker who just realized I never introduced myself on this thread. I read Moby Dick along with the group but quickly fell behind so didn't do any posting (I have two young kids (1 and 4) ..."

Thanks for the intro, even if belated. I do understand both the need to commit to family time and the stresses and time demands of the law. I do hope, though, that you can find enough time to read and discuss the Republic with us -- the issues of justice and the just life are very relevant to legal practice!

I have been fascinated to watch "Law and Literature" courses gradually creeping into law school curricula; a recognition that the great ideas that works that have informed the Great Conversation over the centuries also have utility and value for those whose careers will be the pursuit of truth and justice.


message 581: by abigail (new)

abigail thomas king Hello, all!

My name is Abigail, and I am delighted to discover this group! I am an eighth grade English teacher, although with my recent marriage and move to the west coast, I am currently without a full time job. I am putting that time to good use by reacquainting myself with some classics (or actually reading the ones I managed to avoid during my years of "formal" school).

I am a graduate of Trinity College (Hartford, CT) and St. John's College Graduate Institute (Annapolis), and, despite only being a "Johnny-lite", I've missed the opportunity to not only read but also discuss great books. I am thrilled to be starting with The Republic, since I somehow managed to miss it in both undergrad and graduate school.

I am looking forward to reading the ensuing discussions and getting to know everyone.


message 582: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 7718 comments abigail wrote: "Hello, all!

My name is Abigail, and I am delighted to discover this group! I am an eighth grade English teacher, although with my recent marriage and move to the west coast, I am currently withou..."


Welcome, Abigale. I don't think I've ever met a SJGI graduate, but you should be right at home here!


message 583: by Sasha (last edited Jul 25, 2011 11:32AM) (new)

Sasha Hey Abigail! I am also using my unemployment to read a few classics. Just finished Middlemarch half an hour ago.


message 584: by Colin (new)

Colin | 2 comments Hi, I'm Colin! I'm not very well read, but I love reading and I get easily engrossed in books. The first thing I noticed when I came here was that everyone is a genius. I'll be breaking that trend. I came here to discuss classics, because none of my friends have read them and I learn better if I have people to learn with.


message 585: by Thomas (new)

Thomas | 5030 comments Colin wrote: "Hi, I'm Colin! I'm not very well read, but I love reading and I get easily engrossed in books. The first thing I noticed when I came here was that everyone is a genius. I'll be breaking that tren..."

Welcome to the group, Colin. The first thing that happens when you join is you become a genius, so congratulations! Jump right into the Republic discussion if you like. We're only on Book 2, so if you haven't started it won't take you long to catch up.


message 586: by Sam (new)

Sam | 1 comments Wow, there is a huge diversity of free thinkers here. It warms my heart to see the Western Canon being read outside of an university. My name is Sam. I'm a undergraduate student at Shimer College. If you'd like to learn more about said school, or if you'd like just to fling some ideas at me, please reply or send me a message or whatever we do here. I'm sorta new. So I'll be spending the time lurking and reading. I hope to be part of the next discussion.


message 587: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 7718 comments Sam wrote: "I'm sorta new. So I'll be spending the time lurking and reading. I hope to be part of the next discussion.
"


Welcome! But you should know that just lurking and reading isn't allowed here. [g]

As Thomas said to Colin, just by joining this group you become a genius, and geniuses are expected to share their genius with others, not to hide it, so we'll expect you to join right in the discussion. Okay?


message 588: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 7718 comments Colin wrote: "Hi, I'm Colin! I'm not very well read, but I love reading and I get easily engrossed in books. The first thing I noticed when I came here was that everyone is a genius. I'll be breaking that tren..."

Welcome, Colin. You're absolutely right that reading the classics is much more rewarding and fulfilling when you're reading (and discussing!) them with others. So come along in and join the discussion.


message 589: by Cassandra (new)

Cassandra | 26 comments Hello, I'm Cassandra and I'm an italian girl.
I live in Venice, where I study literature and classical studies.
I love the classics, especially Greek, Latin and Italian authors (Plato, Virgil and Dante are three of my obsessions!), Marcel Proust, James Joyce, Fyodor Dostoyevskij, Virgilia Woolf and Thomas Mann.
I hope to join you in the next discussion!


message 590: by Cassandra (new)

Cassandra | 26 comments Patrice wrote: "Venice! Gasp! My favorite city! Lucky!"

Yeah...I really love Venice(I was born and raised here), but sometimes living here, with all the tourists, the carnival, the film festival etc...is like living in Disneyland!


message 591: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 7718 comments Cassandra wrote: "Hello, I'm Cassandra and I'm an italian girl."

Welcome! You may be our first Italian (or am I forgetting anybody else?)

I know what you mean about living in Disneyland -- I live on an island which is a major tourist destination -- major magazines and newspapers keep touting us as one of the best tourist destinations in the country. In winter it's fine, not that many tourists, but in summer it's a zoo. Hundreds of people on each ferry, and small cruise ships docking at the port. At times I get very tired of going downtown in summer and trying to find a parking space -- it's a zoo down there. And there are constant boaters and kayak groups going past the house most summer days -- it's a rarity to be able to look out and see just mother nature.


message 592: by Cassandra (last edited Aug 15, 2011 05:57AM) (new)

Cassandra | 26 comments Everyman wrote: Welcome! You may be our first Italian (or am I forgetting anybody else?)

I'm honored to be the first Italian in the group...In Italy we have a great classical tradition, but often we don't appreciate it.
I'm really glad to have found this group...I always loved the classics and talk about them!

I know what you mean about living in Disneyland

Venice is a zoo for the whole year! The ferries are always full of tourists (I often arrive late to school because I can't find a place on it) and also gondolas pass costantly in front of my house... sometimes so frequently that it becomes annoying!



message 593: by Cassandra (new)

Cassandra | 26 comments Patrice wrote: "How did you learn English?"

I studied English in school and I often read books in their original language.
I'm really sorry for all my mistakes...


message 594: by Cassandra (new)

Cassandra | 26 comments Patrice wrote: "I asked because you sound like a native speaker! NO mistakes!"

Wow ... I'm flattered! But I really do some mistakes, so I prefer to apologize in advance!


message 595: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 7718 comments Cassandra wrote: "I'm really sorry for all my mistakes...
"


We'll gladly forgive you if you ever make one, but so far you haven't made any at all. I'm very impressed.


message 596: by Cassandra (new)

Cassandra | 26 comments Everyman wrote: "

We'll gladly forgive you if you ever make one, but so far you haven't made any at all. I'm very impressed."


Thank you ... I'm really flattered!My English teachers would be proud of me if they read your comments!


message 597: by Cassandra (last edited Aug 16, 2011 04:56AM) (new)

Cassandra | 26 comments Patrice wrote: "And if we ever read Dante you will be a great help!!!"

I would be happy to help you with Dante...he's one of my favorite authors ever and I pretty much read everythig he wrote!
In addition, his works, especially the Divine Comedy, are very difficult to understand, even for an Italian person: they are full of metaphors, similes, puns, neologisms, references to events and personalities of his time but now virtually unknown...but every Italian student must read all his Comedy and most of his poems in high school!


message 598: by Cassandra (new)

Cassandra | 26 comments Patrice wrote: "Ooooo! I hope we do read him soon!"


Me too! For now, this group made ​​me want to read again Plato's Republic (I had read and partially translated it for a university project a few months ago!)


message 599: by Sasha (new)

Sasha Yeah, I found the references to contemporary people and events the toughest thing about Inferno. Hard to get immersed in a work when you're constantly flipping to the endnotes.

We visited Venice a few years ago, and at one point my wife whispered to me, "This is like Disneyland for grownups." :) But not even American tourists can ruin that city. It's a hell of a place.


message 600: by Cassandra (new)

Cassandra | 26 comments Patrice wrote: "You know Greek too!!!! We need you!
Join the discussion, we're only in Book III!!!!"


Can I join the discussion even if I didn't participate from the beginning?If so,I would love to join you!


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