SciFi and Fantasy eBook Club discussion
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A Question about the Authors section
I'm not fond of any marking but as long as authors keep their sales pitches to specified threads I suppose there won't be a problem. However, I would not like to see the group become just authors selling stuff. That is sort of what happened to Kindleboards.
I think if authors knew how egregiously ineffective making and maintaining threads in some of these Goodreads groups can be, they really wouldn't bother. Many of the threads in the author area here get 3-4 views (probably almost all the author).The biggest development in ebook publishing over the last year or so has been the increasing dominance of the "pay-to-play" model of ebook promoting. Not that it ever worked that well to begin with, but there's nowhere an author can just show up, make some posts, and expect any kind of real traction for free.
So how about that Locke Lamora?
I never (What never? No never. What never? Well, hardly ever) look in the authors' forum. Same thing with KBoards.com: I never (...ditto...) surf the authors' area, either. I have zero interest (what zero?...) in knowing what every self-published author in the world wants me to read of theirs.However, I do know some people who seem to love reading mostly self-published fiction. I don't know if those readers get an extra something from knowing (on-line, at least) the author of something they're reading, if they're less picky than I am and just like the cheap prices, or what. (Sorry, authors, but there is a reason that in the old days most submissions never got past the slush pile readers.)
Personally, if we were to institute a no self-promotion policy and abolish the Authors' forum, I'd be perfectly fine with that. I'm more than fine with authors joining us here purely as readers, but there are plenty of other places -- including here on GoodReads -- where they can hawk their wares and discuss the challenges and angst of self-publishing with their compatriots.
PS: Check out this screenshot I posted here not too long ago: https://www.goodreads.com/photo/group...
I do read indie authors; just like I read from smaller, mid-sized and the large publishing houses. I like the variety I can get from delving into each. As I said earlier, I don't mind the authors participating here - especially given that some of our active members are authors. I tend to agree that advertising in this sized group may not be effective but then again, I've never tried, so who am I to say.
I'm a little underwhelmed by authors who join, come by every week, month, whatever simply to post a promotion and leave. Personally, I'm more likely to look at an author in a forum like goodreads who I've seen around and not someone simply advertising because then I'm curious about what they write.
I'm a little underwhelmed by authors who join, come by every week, month, whatever simply to post a promotion and leave. Personally, I'm more likely to look at an author in a forum like goodreads who I've seen around and not someone simply advertising because then I'm curious about what they write.
I don't mind when they are in their own section. If something catches my eye, then I'll click on it. And sometimes follow to Amazon to read the first page. I view Goodreads as a giant book shelf. You never know what you might come across. For the stuff that comes across as 'used car salesman' like, I just don't click on the link. It's all about presentation but doesn't take any energy to ignore a thread.
I'm an author but I deliberately do not continuously post links to my books. If you want to know click on my profile. I'm a reader first. I try to participate in several forum discussions on a variety of subjects. I hate seeing notifications for the groups I follow which turn out to be just another advert for a book.I do tend to post mostly in author sections but they are mainly about publishing in general, i.e editing, marketing, writing not please buy my latest.
I'm not perfect by any means, but I want to interface with readers and get their opinions not just other authors.
I feel...dirty. I've posted here, and promoted in the Authors thread. It's a compulsion. A few members viewed the promo...probably other authors sizing the competition. Like I said..."compulsion". (Dirty, dirty, dirty!)I don't comment on books I haven't read ( don't read much when I'm busy writing), and rarely comment on "writer's angst" threads. Unless I feel strongly about the subject. Or it pricks my butt.
I do always check out the topics list, though. And usually move to another group or discussion of a book I've already read. Know why?
90% are Author promos! Maybe 98%.
And those pricks don't buy books! (Dirty! Dirty! Dirty!) :}
I mostly ignore the authors section, but as long as they keep over there, I'm good. It does sometimes tend to fill up the space given for the group on the front page, but then, that's true of every group.
I'm pretty liberal with my use of the block list though. Anyone with even a whiff of spamming goes in it, my TBR list is plenty big enough, it won't miss them.
The Goodreads SciFi and Fantasy Book Club takes a harder stance on authors posting - blatant promotional posts are generally deleted (even sometimes from the 'Authors' section!). Their policy is that every post has to either start or contribute to a genuine discussion topic, which I think is fair enough. I confess that I do plug my own new releases now and again, albeit in the appropriate place!
I will admit that I do have two individual book threads in the Author's section where I've been promoting my new sci-fi series. There are a few readers from this group who took interest in the threads, and have posted in them.But to be honest, I hate promoting anyway. So if anything, this thread reminds me why I don't usually bother and won't update my promo threads anymore.
I do love a good book discussion, so I'll just stick with posting in the regular threads. As some members have indicated already in this thread, that's the way they want it anyway. So if that keeps an author member like me from wearing out my welcome, I'm fine with it.
If anything I think the future holds more authors promoting more books. Blogs like Teleread encourage authors to consider marketing their books as an equal part to writing to it. I strongly disagree but the indie bandwagon as some loud players trumpeting for marketing and social networking and it seems like it's up in the driver's seat.
For now I would say to keep deleting book promotions outside the author's corner. But I wouldn't complain if there were a zero tolerance policy for book promotions. And full disclosure for nominations if the reader has a relationship with the author: "I nominate Gnaw! By Billy Bob for Killer Animals theme. It's about rabbits turning into meat eaters. It was written by my brother in law ." Or something like that.
For now I would say to keep deleting book promotions outside the author's corner. But I wouldn't complain if there were a zero tolerance policy for book promotions. And full disclosure for nominations if the reader has a relationship with the author: "I nominate Gnaw! By Billy Bob for Killer Animals theme. It's about rabbits turning into meat eaters. It was written by my brother in law ." Or something like that.
The more I think about it I wonder why we need any book promotions in the group. It seems like there are better places for that, maybe a group that is just for promoting books that people can join if they want to. I know I am tired of seeing book promos, it's like having a constant stream of people knocking on your door trying to sell you something or going out to your car and finding it completely covered in flyers.
Blake wrote: "Perhaps the Authors section would be best used as an advice article section, where authors help one another up the ladder of visibility and marketing. Otherwise, all you will ever end up with is a bunch of talented, in most cases, but clueless self-marketers begging to be seen."I'm not sure "clueless" is an accurate term to use to describe all of the authors who use the Author section. Some authors are, indeed, desperate for sales and like to spam groups with promotional posts. Others have made a calculated decision to use the section moderators have created to promote their works to see if there is any interest there.
The one thing I have noticed is that people like to assume that everyone shares their opinion and figure since they feel a certain way, everyone else must feel the same way too. Some members could care less about self-published books, consider them drek, and avoid them like the plague. Others enjoy reading works by unknown authors, especially the ones who take pride in their craft, are professional, and produce a top notch product. I, for one, like to read books from across the publishing spectrum and do read books by independent authors. So promotional posts, when restricted to the appropriate areas don't bother me.
With that said, I absolutely agree with everyone that this is a site for readers, first and foremost, and anything that interferes with that is a problem.
Have I used the Author section to promote some of my books? Yes.
Would I be upset if the all promotion in this group were banned. No.
I joined this site as a reader and use this site primarily as a reader. However, I do love it when people take interest in my books. I'm not a vanity author. I don't publish books just to see my name in neon lights. I am a career author who publishes books to entertain readers, and cut no corners to produce books of the highest possible quality. It's the least I can do to present a professional product for my readers.
The moderators gave authors permission to promote their books in the Author's section and I met some wonderful members who chose to engage me about my books there. But I am more than happy with my decision to cease any and all promotion in this group to avoid ruffling any feathers, regardless of the fact that I only promoted in the places where I was permitted. As I mentioned earlier, I hate promoting anyway, so it's no big loss to me.
Thanks for making your post more clear, Blake. Personally, I don't think this group is the place for authors to talk shop, and based off of the response of some members, it's also the wrong place to promote books as well. In my case, I used the author section, because I'm of the belief that if nothing is risked, nothing is gained. So it was worth a shot. Again, I had fun talking with readers about my books there.There are plenty of other groups where authors can talk shop and learn the business. In fact, a better place to do that than Goodreads would be to visit the Writers Cafe at www.kboards.com. Hands down, the best site on the internet for self-publishing authors. Do yourself a favor and check it out.
Regardless of how things shake out, or if the Author section will remain, this group will always be centered around book discussions of SF/F and that's the way it should be.
Other GR forums here have a section called "Self-Promotion" rather than "Authors." Perhaps that's a more self-evident categorization. I can see the Authors section used for things other than just self-promotion, but since that's the approved place for self-promotion, it's naturally going to get swamped with just that.IMO, as long as there's an enforced rule (moderators moving or removing promotions posted in inappropriate sections) that self-promotion be relegated to one location, I don't see an issue. Most people don't look at those sections (myself included, though of course I've posted self-promo there as well). BUT, since it's all in one place, what's the issue? Ignore it or not as you like.
I never expected new readers to flock to my work from self-promotion in that section, but if/when I ever gain a following from members here, it's nice to have a section wherein I can post notification about new work coming available.
That being said, I wouldn't abandon the group if it went away or if the group's policies were more restrictive.
I think the big problem that some members of this Group have is that they can't ignore the self promotion posts. If you are subscribed to the Group's general alerts, you will end up seeing the posts. Also, even if you aren't subscribed, you will still see the promotions from your GR feed. If there are a lot of promotional threads, it will knock the group discussion posts off of the feed and that makes it difficult to monitor the group's non-promotional discussions. I think this is probably at the heart of why some members don't like the promotion even if it is restricted to one section. That's just my take.
Kevis wrote: "I think the big problem that some members of this Group have is that they can't ignore the self promotion posts. If you are subscribed to the Group's general alerts, you will end up seeing the post..."Couldn't agree more. Fed up seeing my notification bar full of adverts for the same book in every topic. Sure I want to sell my books but there is a time and place.
Good points, though that's the flaw of GR's UI.Other (non-book) fourms I participate in have a UI that allows you to restrict what you see by sub-forum or allow you to do searches on threads you've participated in. Makes it far easier to ignore what you're not interested in.
Kevis wrote: "I think the big problem that some members of this Group have is that they can't ignore the self promotion posts. If you are subscribed to the Group's general alerts, you will end up seeing the post..."Yes, this is exactly the problem I have. Book discussion gets drowned by a sea of promo posts.
Donna wrote: "The more I think about it I wonder why we need any book promotions in the group. It seems like there are better places for that, maybe a group that is just for promoting books that people can join..."Quite honestly, the reason you have authors trying to promote books to you in these groups is because you're a group of readers. You are the target market, so we are scolded by our publicists to get in there and SELL SELL SELL! But to be honest, most of us don't like doing it, and we're not particularly good at it. Worst of all, it's obviously not very effective. So I made my obligatory post about my fantasy series in the Authors section, and I've just participated as an author and as a reader in the various interesting threads that pop up.
Like I said elsewhere, for small press and indie writers and apparently even for big press authors who don't have the Martin or Rowling marketing machine behind them, there's a lot of shouting our narcissism into the silence while everyone else does the same. Bakers selling to other bakers, butchers selling to other butchers. There has to be a better way.
Also, if you think goodreads is bad, check out book blogs. Holy moly. NOTHING but ads there. You try to start an interesting thread, and you just get bombarded with ads for other people's books and their blogs about their books that they're trying to sell.
Jordan wrote: "Bakers selling to other bakers, butchers selling to other butchers. There has to be a better way."I'm thinking joining a cult dedicated to the God Zeus and sacrificing a few plump goats. Might just do the trick. ;)
Kevis wrote: "Jordan wrote: " Bakers selling to other bakers, butchers selling to other butchers. There has to be a better way."I'm thinking joining a cult dedicated to the God Zeus and sacrificing a few plump..."
I'm in. :-)
Jordan wrote: ...Bakers selling to other bakers, butchers selling to other butchers....I've often wondered what the typical ratio of self-published e-book sales is in terms of purchases by other self-published authors versus non-authors. :-)
As a reader I don't think I've ever been swayed into reading a book from a book promotion. In this group I've read a few books from the failed to win category, but nothing from the authors section. I think the books suggested in the nomination threads are much better way to discover different books. For example, I bought and read Probability Space by Nancy Kress from a nomination a few months ago.
What that means, I guess, is there is an over emphasis in our culture for marketing and promations, but it's mostly background noise.
I also agree that a large part of the indie sales to go other indie authors or readers who don't want to pay a lot for ebooks.
At this stage in my life I've got more to spend on professional books than time to sample lots of samples in the indie slush pile.
What that means, I guess, is there is an over emphasis in our culture for marketing and promations, but it's mostly background noise.
I also agree that a large part of the indie sales to go other indie authors or readers who don't want to pay a lot for ebooks.
At this stage in my life I've got more to spend on professional books than time to sample lots of samples in the indie slush pile.
Greg wrote: "As a reader I don't think I've ever been swayed into reading a book from a book promotion. In this group I've read a few books from the failed to win category, but nothing from the authors section..."This.
I've read quite a few because I a) won them in a giveaway (that I CHOSE to enter) - I got sent a couple of books unasked in return for reviews, and didn't feel right about those, or b) The reviews from people I know and trust, both positive and negative, made it look interesting. Some of my friends don't share my taste, but their reviews are usually clear enough I can tell they didn't like a book because of things that dont' bother me, or things I even enjoy.
However, I have clicked through to the profiles of more than a few interesting people in threads, only to discover their authors and then check out their books. Based on their actual discussion, and in ignorance of the fact they even had books to check out.
Greg, you are right. A promotion is the same as a stand in a store. The cover may get your attention, but the overleaf and a glimpse inside are needed to close the deal. As a teen, I could be swayed by a pretty cover - not so much anymore.I don't buy books very often, usually only if the library won't carry it (or can't afford it). I'm more likely to look at a book, because a friend recommends it, or I like the author.
I do enter the giveaways and pick up a few free ebooks to check out the authors and their styles. I've also had a few authors approach me offering me free books for review - which is way cool.
If I'm really bored and don't feel like reading or writing, then I may browse the promotions or even the GR recommendation.
Kevis wrote: "There are plenty of other groups where authors can talk shop and learn the business. In fact, a better place to do that than Goodreads would be to visit the Writers Cafe at www.kboards.com. Hands down, the best site on the internet for self-publishing authors. Do yourself a favor and check it out."
I may be biased, I'm a moderator on kboards, and I tend to agree it's a great resource site for authors. I do think that's a much better location than this group and it would take goodness quite a bit of work to build up what's already there.
As for this group, I'm happy that many of the authors participate in other areas, I really understand how ducky selling is since I'm not a salesman either and I certainly don't want you all to feel unwelcome.
1. I modified the self-promotion statement in the header to mention drive by promos without participating .... and I deleted some recent book posts from yesterday ... maybe that new statement needs to be clarified further.
2. We can certainly rename the Authors section if you think that is a good thing.
3. We could add a special promotions thread for sales or freebies if you think those are better in a single place ...
I may be biased, I'm a moderator on kboards, and I tend to agree it's a great resource site for authors. I do think that's a much better location than this group and it would take goodness quite a bit of work to build up what's already there.
As for this group, I'm happy that many of the authors participate in other areas, I really understand how ducky selling is since I'm not a salesman either and I certainly don't want you all to feel unwelcome.
1. I modified the self-promotion statement in the header to mention drive by promos without participating .... and I deleted some recent book posts from yesterday ... maybe that new statement needs to be clarified further.
2. We can certainly rename the Authors section if you think that is a good thing.
3. We could add a special promotions thread for sales or freebies if you think those are better in a single place ...
Geoffrey wrote: "3. We could add a special promotions thread for sales or freebies if you think those are better in a single place ... "Better for the readers who would prefer to ignore the promotional posts en masse, certainly. But for the writers and publicists who are relying on those posts to try to garner some attention on their work, honestly, it's the kiss of death.
New entries sink to the bottom very fast in the "promote your stuff here" threads, and people's eyes glaze over when they're just looking at a sea of promotions and freebies. As someone mentioned elsewhere, most authors' posts in those threads get one or two views, mostly from the author himself.
Is it any wonder that authors do look for opportunities to slide in a mention of their work in the discussion threads and maybe link their profiles or books? And even when we don't, just the merest mention of our work draws eyerolls and people accusing us of it.
So let's be honest. This present model isn't working very well for the writers OR for the readers. Writers want to find the right audience for their work, readers want to find new authors they enjoy. So how do we hook them up without all the hype and bruhaha and frustration on both sides?
Maybe the answer really is not to let authors self-promote or participate in the threads as authors. But in that case, goodreads loses a lot of its value for authors and publicists...
Jordan wrote: "Maybe the answer really is not to let authors self-promote or participate in the threads as authors. But in that case, goodreads loses a lot of its value for authors and publicists... "It might be worth keeping in mind that every single page of every single thread has an authors' section. They're the "sponsored links" ads on the right column and the various banners.
Yes, of course. But as I said several posts above, publicists tell their authors to "make a presence" for yourself, and SELL SELL SELL, even beyond those ads. We are expected to promote our work. My initial evaluation of goodreads and book blogs was that marketing that way would be one of two things: A huge annoyance to the readers to sift through the sales pitches, or a bunch of salesmen hawking to each other and nobody buying much of anything. I haven't been here long, but my observation has been that it's a bit of both and not terribly effective at generating sales. That's why I asked how we could more effectively hook readers up with writers.
I can see how readers might equate authors promoting here with morticians handing out business cards in cancer wards. However, a site that exists for readers to "find" books...c'mon. Do turd piles draw flies?End the Author Thread. Mod out posts that promote. Most writers will go somewhere else. Some will try to circumvent. Wait.., MOST will. They'll just keep coming.
Does anyone else see the irony in the fact that most responses to this thread are from authors? :}
Let me reiterate: I don't hate authors. I sometimes even count them as people. I dislike commercials and spam. It's a pretty big difference.
The authors I can't seem to 'embrace' are the ones who never say a word other than to try and sell me something. It's intrusive and sometimescreepy. It has a certain door to door salesman aspect feel to it that I dislike.
The authors I can't seem to 'embrace' are the ones who never say a word other than to try and sell me something. It's intrusive and sometimescreepy. It has a certain door to door salesman aspect feel to it that I dislike.
Blake wrote: "'Indie Authors' should still be counted with the same respect and creedance as Traditionally published. If I built a castle myself, or I paid other to build it for me, the castle still exists. What does it matter 'how' the book got into print/ePrint? The fact that a book exists is a merit to the author who wrote it. They should convey as much respect from everyone as any other author."And yet the fact remains that there is a stigma for self-publishers that hasn't gone away and won't for the foreseeable future. There's a reason why people tend to scoff at self-publishers and it's not just because many of them aren't any good. It's also the way they promote their books.
Granted there is a double standard. You can't turn on the TV, go to the movies, read a magazine, or even watch a YouTube video without being drowned in advertisements. But different standards are held for self-published authors which may be unfair, but that's just the way it is. The fact that the average self-published author doesn't have a marketing budget only adds to their desperation to get the word out about their books whenever and wherever they can.
Jordan made a great point earlier. Most authors, in general, aren't marketing specialists and hate self-promotion. This means that they will, by necessity, bumble their way through promos, trying to take advantage of the few places where they think they can promote their books. Unfortunately, the average Joe doesn't care if you wrote a book and would rather you not interrupt their regularly scheduled discussion (understandably) with you hawking your wares. To be honest, if an author is irritating the very people they are trying to connect with, it defeats the whole purpose of whatever promotional technique they are using.
This is why most social networking sites and media venues have a pay-to-play system called "paid advertisements". It's one of the only real legitimate ways to promote your books without being too intrusive and ticking everyone off. Members of this site have a reasonable expectation to use the Group without being harassed to buy an author's book. Truthfully, the author's feelings really doesn't matter. The fact that he or she doesn't have the money to pay for advertisements doesn't matter either.
Authors, especially those with no marketing budget, have to be especially creative in order to find effective ways to connect with readers. This thread, as much as anything, proves that if you are irritating readers with your promos, then you're wasting your time trying to get them to buy your books anyway.
As for the stigma of self-publishing, that's something every self-published author has to deal with. Best way to combat the inherent bias that people have against you via your publication methods is to put out a damn good product and market it in a way that doesn't make people want to pick up pitch forks.
Blake: Literary criticism and book clubs have been going just fine for centuries without the authors input. I don't see WHY we should "embrace authors" in order to read books, despite how much I'd like to give Neil Gaiman a hug. There are hundreds of book groups here that never have any author presence (dead authors, classic books, focussed on best seller trad pub genres where the authors aren't ever here beating dead horses and spamming threads). They manage in depth discussion and dissection of books quite fine.GR is a book database, and doesn't in any way need authors permission to have a book listing here. So there's no danger of authors en masse removing their books, there never has been, talk about a straw man argument.
That said, there are also groups where authors are definitely present, and we've even discussed their books in the group - and they've stayed out of it (or discussed with readers and answered questions in a separate thread). It is perfectly possible for authors and their readers to coexist in a group and get on fine. It's just not necessary.
So yes, whether you want readers or buyers, you need an audience, unless you'd like to play ring-around-the-reciprocal-shining-review with other authors, and I suspect you don't. But readers don't need author presence to get along just fine.
To Promote or Not to Promote, that is the question.There are some very good concerns and comments here about self promoting your book.
Personally, I try to review each book I read. That said, if I win a giveaway, or an author has a 1-day free for all, or the author approaches me off-line (this is the best) - I will read the entire book and post a review (favorable or not). I've read one of Kevis' books and it was ok. It wasn't "Dune", but it wasn't "Oh my why did I pick that one up.
That said, there are ways to promote your work, without clogging up on going discussions. If there's a forum for doing it, all the better. I've started hating my yahoo email, because of the advertisements (not including spam).
Now, if you've read someone's book and you want to discuss it in a forum - great. The author should be pleased that people are reading. They should also have a thick skin - some people (incredibly) won't like it. Try comparing your books to someone elses. I do that and find the strangest things. We agree on some books but are complete opposites on others. We can still discuss the book in a friendly way. As an aspiring author, I know that some people will hate what I write, so be it.
So, in a nutshell - promote in the correct forums, but don't clog up the conversations. And please don't get defensive if someone doesn't like your book. As for the reader, say what you like and dislike.
(Can you start a sentence with "And"?
E.D. wrote: "Does anyone else see the irony in the fact that most responses to this thread are from authors?..."Irony? The thread we're in is "A Question About the Authors Section." You know, the ONLY approved place to put self-promotion in this group.
And this group is the "SciFi and Fantasy eBook Club"...So what more logical place is there for authors who write SciFi and Fantasy, and publish eBooks, to go to looking for people interested in things like, um, dunno, maybe SiFi and Fantasy eBooks?
There's no irony here.
I'm unpublished (still), however I am a omni-reader (98 books this year). I read just about anything as long as it's good. I'm not afraid to stop reading after 50 pages and say (in my opinion) the book is a dog. The best Sifi book I've read this year is Freedom Club by Garnell. It actually caught me off guard with one of the reveals near the end of the book. Has anyone else read it?
I would not promote a book I wrote in this forum. That's like writing a glowing review of your own book. Of course you think it's a masterpiece. However, I think it's fine to comment on someone else's book. I think that's the goal of this forum - to create discussions and spread the word about books you've read (good or bad). Also, I would take comments on my book under consideration, but not get drawn into a debate on the merits or lack there of. I might answer very specific questions. I know I would love to ask Shakespeare, if and when did Hamlet go around the bend.
BTW since it is so easy to self-publish (smashwords.com), just about anyone can publish - thus being an author on GR. Also, the best authors are avid readers. How can you write well, if you don't read good books? I follow several authors to see what they've read and liked. Some of these go on my to-read list. Some make me go out and find it.
Kevis wrote: "I think the big problem that some members of this Group have is that they can't ignore the self promotion posts. If you are subscribed to the Group's general alerts, you will end up seeing the post..."This...
As a nonauthor reader, I like this forum, but don't keep up nearly as much I want to, because I like to follow by email, but 90% of my email updates are promos, so I stop reading the emails all together.
Someone made the TV ad analogy earlier, but just imagine 50 minutes of ads for 10 minutes of show....no one would come back and that is why my experience with forums that are unregulated that way tend to devolve to a lot of authors selling to each other while the readers have left.
It's hard to admit, but I'm one of the people that has posted about my novel in the promotions thread without really participating in the community as much as I would like. I'm not making any excuses, just stating the fact that I haven't been involved as much as I would like. I hope to remedy that.Regarding the subject of paid advertisements being the best method, my research has shown that most paid advertisement is largely ineffective. However, on the other side of the coin, promoting in the self promotion threads obviously is not very effective either because people tend to avoid them as much as possible. I think paid advertisements work for better known, more established authors from major publishers because the person looking at the ad either recognizes the author as one that they like or they recognize the publishing company.
Authors, like pretty much any other artist, want their work to be seen. I understand the way things are currently being done here is not palatable to the reader though. I'm honestly not sure what the best way to do it is. Currently, it would be like going to an art gallery and having thousands of artists shove their painting in your face at the same time. Seclusion turns it into thousands of artists shoving their paintings in the face of thousands of other artists.
I'd be fine with the self promotion area being removed. Honestly, I don't think many people really look at it anyway. I don't know if there is a way that authors can put there works in front of readers without sounding brash and overwhelming, and even if a method of doing that was developed then I think it would be quickly swamped with people trying to exploit it. Oh well, I guess I have just babbled incoherently, but I thought I would add my two cents on the subject...and try to participate in the community more ;)
I don't know about people not looking at the author section. I do look at it every so often. Primarily because there are authors that I like on GR (especially in SciFi) who post there. It's kind of like going to the store and browsing the shelves. Does anyone do that anymore?I even check the postings of upcoming freebies. To misquote Forest Gump, "Life is like a big book store, you never know what you'll get." Who doesn't like a surprise. I just finished a book that is a paranormal romance. When I got it in the mail, I thought "not another paranormal romance". Surprise it was pretty good. Since it's not SciFi, ask me off line if you want the specifics.
BTW this is a pretty good discussion for new authors to listen too. Tips on what works or doesn't.
The elephant in the room here might be the question as to which aspect an (aspiring) author should spend more time on: improving their writing, or self-promotion. This, of course, is almost impossible to prove empirically -- at least I can't imagine how you would. You could possibly prove that increasing self-promotion increases sales (and that makes sense), but it would be way too subjective to try to measure how actual product quality affects sales.I would like to think that if an author has the requisite talent and skill, something meaningful to say, and sweats like hell over every word to get it just right, that the result would sell itself once some certain minimum amount of marketing was done. But then it's not always easy to tell why one book is a hit and another isn't, so that part still seems a bit of a crap shoot, while marketing and advertising will always have some effect.
I'm not sure that actually added something to the conversation, other than to illustrate that I do share your pain, authors, at least a bit. But I still have an aversion, logical or not, to seeing people I imagine sweating and agonizing over their art being reduced to sales[wo]men. I don't envy you, but I still don't like seeing it.
Joe wrote: "Regarding the subject of paid advertisements being the best method, my research has shown that most paid advertisement is largely ineffective."I'm not going to invest too much energy debating the merits or effectiveness of a paid ad campaign. I'm also not a marketing guru, but I'll say this much. Advertising has much more to do with building brand awareness than it does getting immediate sales. Too many authors take out an ad and think it's supposed to translate to downloads of their ebook. Actually, that's not how it works. Advertising is about establishing a long term relationship with a consumer. It's also why advertising is so expensive. It takes time to build up a brand name (the "Rule of 7" comes into play here). Advertising helps to speed up the process. So anyone who buys an advert and thinks they are going to end up with a lot of book purchases is sadly mistaken.
A promotional spot, such as advertising a sale, however, is different and, like an advertisement, usually involves a specific call to action, but is more immediate. An example of this is buying a promo from a site like Bookbub or Kindle Fire Department to promote that your book is on sale. If an author doesn't understand the difference between buying ad space and a promotion, it's no surprise they will think that paying for advertisements doesn't work. Anyone who has paid to advertise their books on Facebook, or even here on Goodreads, waiting for the cash to come rolling in has learned that the hard way.
I understand. It makes perfect sense. You are very correct, anyone who expects vast amounts of sales from a paid twitter or Facebook ad is definitely naive. It's not going to happen. I honestly have not done much research on paid promotions through book blog sites and the sort as of yet. They are definitely something that I have on my radar to look into. I also understand the concept of brand building. Until you become a recognizable brand you are just another face in the crowd. My current strategy is to do guest blogs and get reviews for free copies. I plan on researching what my next plan of action should be from there. Anyway, sorry, I'm diverting from the original topic of the thread. Like I said earlier, I don't really see much problem in removing the promotional thread because I don't really know how useful it is in the first place.
Micah wrote: "E.D. wrote: "Does anyone else see the irony in the fact that most responses to this thread are from authors?..."Irony? The thread we're in is "A Question About the Authors Section." You know, the..."
Ummm..,dunno. Does a thread concerning authors promoting their work dominating the Topic listings garnering the majority of it's responses from authors that joined to promote their work not reek with irony? :}
E.D. wrote: "Does a thread concerning authors promoting their work dominating the Topic listings garnering the majority of it's responses from authors that joined to promote their work not reek with irony?"No.
Not by any definition of irony I've ever read. Look it up. It doesn't mean what you think it does.
Blake wrote: " Instead of the strange insistence to segregate authors from their readers, what is a more constructive way of accomplishing the goal of having an Author section? "Indeed, as I think I asked before, either here or perhaps on another thread, if the goal of the author's section is not to allow authors either to talk to each other about writing OR to promote our work, what exactly IS the point of it?
And to repeat the overarching question, since the existing model of new authors finding readers and readers finding new authors here doesn't seem to be working, what can we devise that will work better?
I don't think the issue is that authors are posting in the "author" section.I think it is, that some authors are not contributing to other topics and joining reads.
There are some authors, however, who only ever come into the group to post updates about their book in the author section but are otherwise not active participants in our little community. These are the authors I've been watching.
Not wishing to start a witch hunt or otherwise vilify any sub-group of our members, do we need to put some restrictions on author advertising here? Some want to hear about sales or new releases or freebies and I don't want to take that away. And, do we want to ensure that authors are also actively participating elsewhere in the group? Is that weird to even ask of them? Is there some other arrangement that would make everyone happy? Is everyone happy with the group as is?
I haven't taken a reality check of what the membership is thinking on any topics recently, so I thought I'd ask. Tell me all your opinions (well, not *all* your opinions, but at least your on topic opinions) as readers, as authors as interested bystanders ....
What will make the overall membership happiest?