Classics and the Western Canon discussion
General
>
What do people want to read next?
message 1:
by
Everyman
(new)
Jun 08, 2009 09:30PM
To get things underway, I unilaterally selected a first read, but let's hear from people as to what they would like to read for some of our next selections.
reply
|
flag
I'm ready to begin The Divine Comedy. Also Gargantua and Pantegruel, Don Quixote, and (god forbid) Les Miserables. Will reread Oedipus. Thanks for starting the group; I look forward to the discussions.Gerry
Everyman, I may not be worthy of this group and its lofty goals, but I will attempt to be a good participant. I look forward to the discussions!
Cynthia wrote: "Everyman, I may not be worthy of this group and its lofty goals, but I will attempt to be a good participant. I look forward to the discussions!"Not worthy? Piffle! Pshaw!
Sometimes the best insights come from those who are reading these books for the first time.
Gerald mentioned Don Quixote. I've had the Edith Grossman translation sitting, unopened, on my shelf forever. Big red tome mocking me, with a Spanish accent.
Being very much a dilettante dabbler, I'm gonna go with following the more experienced readers' suggestions here. For now, anyway. Suggest away!
Being very much a dilettante dabbler, I'm gonna go with following the more experienced readers' suggestions here. For now, anyway. Suggest away!
I have Don Quixote. I have always thought of reading it because my mom couldn't get into it and she and I have totally opposite tastes. I would enthusiastically join in on that one.
I'm (finally) ready for _Don Quixote_ too. Edith Grossman's translation is on my Kindle and ready to be read. Third time's the charm.
I've just borrowed Don Quixote from the library so I'll add my vote for that.
I agree with Don Quixote - I need a break from my Kindle (I actually miss real books, especially turning pages) and have DQ in 'real book' form. I'd also like to add one comment/observation. There seems to be two categories of members - those who are extremely familiar with the Western Canon and could talk fluently about the books on the spur of the moment.
Then there are those who first need to acquire the book, and then need to find time to muscle through it at a comfortable pace. Since these books aren't skimmers, it may take awhile. I put myself in this latter category but perhaps that's obvious : )
With that in mind, my true suggestion is that whatever we read, we allow time for as many people to keep up as possible, without being overly excessive and boring those who have finished it in a few days. For example, I just acquired Oedipus Rex last night, have been taking care of a sick dog and working, and won't even look at the first page until probably 8pm tonight. I don't want to rush through these, but rather savor them as they deserve.
I also wouldn't want anyone to get discouraged about this group because they can never keep up, and end up leaving because they are intimidated and/or overwhelmed. This really seems to be a great group of people (love the diverse backgrounds!) and could be a fantastic book club.
Sorry for the long note - thanks in advance for your patience as I stumble through these classics!
I agree completely (remarks quoted below). I think we need to take a slow pace with these discussions for several reasons. First, some of us are indeed busy and are slower reader than others (I'm finishing up a long sequence of eye surgeries which have saved my sight but will leave me with greater difficulty reading, so I fully understand the need for a slower pace). Plus, these books deserve careful reading and sometimes re-reading; they are books to be lingered over, thought about, and discussed from a variety of points of view.I propose several ways to satisfy and involve all members.
First, I intend to leave every discussion permanently open. It may well be that something in a work we read two years from now raises some new perspective on, say, Oedipus Rex which deserves bringing up there. So these will be open ended discussions, giving slower readers a chance to keep participating in those discussions even if some of the group has moved on to new work.
Second, I do think we need to set a manageable reading schedule, one that understands that we all have busy lives and want to enjoy reading these books, not feel pressured to meet some challenging deadline. This will also allow those who have finished a work to go outside it to bring us the insight of some other sources -- there is a vast amount of critical analysis on virtually all the works we will be discussing, and those who are faster readers will have the more opportunity to go find some of that and bring it to us. (OTOH, we don't want to be to desultory and lose focus! It's a balancing act which I hope people will keep helping set.)
Third, there will be plenty of scope for side discussions of books. So if someone is finished Don Quixote well ahead of our schedule and wants to move on, they are welcome to go to the Other Book Discussions folder and open a discussion on some other book they find worth talking about to see whether there are others who would like to join in.
I hope that with these approaches, and maybe some others that group members suggest as we go along, we can accommodate both those with great interest but less time to commit to these readings and those who are eager to forge ahead to discuss as many of these great works as there is interest here in talking about.
Paula wrote: "With that in mind, my true suggestion is that whatever we read, we allow time for as many people to keep up as possible, without being overly excessive and boring those who have finished it in a few days. For example, I just acquired Oedipus Rex last night, have been taking care of a sick dog and working, and won't even look at the first page until probably 8pm tonight. I don't want to rush through these, but rather savor them as they deserve.
I also wouldn't want anyone to get discouraged about this group because they can never keep up, and end up leaving because they are intimidated and/or overwhelmed. This really seems to be a great group of people (love the diverse backgrounds!) and could be a fantastic book club."
While we haven't heard from everybody yet, Don Quixote seems to be the front runner for our next read. I'll wait a few more days to see whether any strong contenders emerge which we might want to vote about, but if not, DQ it will be. In light of Paula's concern, let's talk a bit about how long we should allow for this reading and discussion. DQ is a lengthy book; 730 pages in the large size Raffel translation, 1,000 pages in the Penguin (Rutherford tr.) edition, 950 pages in the Grossman translation.
I don't think one month is nearly enough time for all of us to read and discuss this book. So what should we allow? Six weeks? Two months? More?
I do keep in mind that the discussion will remain open when we start the next book, but OTOH we don't want to move on until everybody has had a full opportunity to finish the reading and discussion.
Thoughts, people? I think it's useful to set an initial timetable, though that is of course subject to change if events warrant -- this group is supposed to be an enjoyment, not a task, and if we're all feeling too rushed by a timetable we thought we could meet, there's no reason not to be flexible. But I think setting an initial timetable will help us keep the reading and discussion moving forward.
Comments, please.
I think that going chapter by chapter, or depending on the lenght, two or three chapters at a time is a good idea. My vote is for The Divine Comedy or Les Miserables :)
Maybe we shouldn't rush this new group into such a big fat book just yet.
I'm not sure how successful a discussion can be had about parts of the book without reference to the whole. On the other hand, I fear that people will drift away from the new group if there's a six- or eight-week gap between discussions.
Dilemma!
I'm not sure how successful a discussion can be had about parts of the book without reference to the whole. On the other hand, I fear that people will drift away from the new group if there's a six- or eight-week gap between discussions.
Dilemma!
Well, I have been in book groups before on the internet and they always had a specific time to read a specific section then everyone knew what was expected. I would definitely try not to go to fast with it.
I agree - and we can adjust as we go, especially since this is the first book we're doing and we seem to be a rather ambitious group (who starts their book club with a 1,000 page Don Quixote?) :) All I know is - this is awesome.
I can get behind Don Quixote. I actually got a copy of the Grossman translation the other day as part of Barnes and Nobels buy 2 get 1 free. I don't see any reason why we can't handle the longer works but I think it's important to break them into sections. I don't neccesarily think chapter by chapter is always the best. Maybe if we have someone out there familiar with the work they can suggest logical breaking points.
I had actually intended to read DQ this summer (can't manage such a large work during the school year). Anyone have a recommendation as to translation/version? Meanwhile I'll re-read Oedipus just so I can follow the discussion on it.
Everyman wrote: "While we haven't heard from everybody yet, Don Quixote seems to be the front runner for our next read. I'll wait a few more days to see whether any strong contenders emerge which we might want to ..."For Don Quixote, what do you say we shoot for about 100 pages a week, using the Grossman translation as the standard?
Linda wrote: "I had actually intended to read DQ this summer (can't manage such a large work during the school year). Anyone have a recommendation as to translation/version? Meanwhile I'll re-read Oedipus just s..."The Grossman translation of Don Quixote is generally considered the best. (IMHO)
Gerald wrote: "Linda wrote: "I had actually intended to read DQ this summer (can't manage such a large work during the school year). Anyone have a recommendation as to translation/version? Meanwhile I'll re-read..."There are a few comments in the reviews sections of Amazon discussing translations. (One of them compares parallel passages from Grossman and Raffel, to the benefit of Raffel, but I'm sure somebody else could come up with such a comparison to the benefit of Grossman.)
As with most translations, it's largely a matter of personal preference, whether one prefers a literal or more interpretative translation, whether one like more formal or more informal language, etc., but the four that seem to be favored are Putnam (for many years the standard, and still respected), Rutherford, Grossman, and Raffel.
What's amazing to me is the explosion in the past thirty years or so of new translations of classic works. For decades, even centuries, we made do with one or two translations of these works. Then the came a rash of translations of many works -- within ten years or so there were three or four translations of Homer, several of Sophocles, several of Cervantes, and so on.
I don't speak Spanish, and haven't read DQ for nearly 50 years, but I think you can't go wrong with any of the four I mentioned. And I think there may be some benefit to having several translations being read. (Okay, that was awkward, but the first two ways I put it were even more awkward!)
My book says: Harvard Classics, edited by Charles W. Eliot Translated by Thomas Shelton. Should I get a better one because I will if it will help me better understand. I read Faust a few years ago and it was horrible. I think I must have had a bad translation. If I can't follow I will have to drop out. I really want to follow.
Dianna wrote: "My book says: Harvard Classics, edited by Charles W. Eliot Translated by Thomas Shelton. Should I get a better one because I will if it will help me better understand. I read Faust a few years a..."I have the Harvard Classics, but I am not going to use their translation. I would suggest you get a better one. Your library may have it; our little library has two translations, to my amazement!
when will the don quixote discussion actually begin?which translation will you be using? i have so many books on my tbr shelf and i would like to be ready. i am still trying to finish "the dark side" by mayer. she seems to have started with an agenda which makes it hard for me to take her too seriously but i plod on. some of her information is based in fact but i find much to be innuendo for the purpose of proving what she thinks rather than what she knows.
I'm game to tackle DQ; I've always been meaning to but have found it a bit daunting. I once heard that Don Quixote is the highest selling book in the world, second to the Bible. Is that true?
DQ is broken into two parts, correct? Perhaps we could do Part I in one month, then Part II the next month? If we're all using different translations, then perhaps working on a page count opens us up to being at randomly different places in the book.
That should also free us up so that people have time to do whatever other reading they want, and not have to focus only on our aggressive reading schedule to stay in the loop.
When do people think they will be ready to start the DQ discussion? In one week? Two weeks? Less? More? We want to give time for people to get the book and start reading, but we also want to keep our forward movement here. And, we want to make sure that we have allowed enough time for the reading and discussion of Oedipus Rex, and for Oedipus at Colonus and Antigone if people want to go there. As to sections, I won't use specific page counts, but since the book is nicely broken up into chapters, we'll use those divisions.
I like to follow the practice of setting up sections that people can post on as soon as the section discussion is set up, but no sooner. That way we won't have to worry about spoilers -- everyone will know that a discussion of, say, chapters 1 through 10 may include information about chapter 10, so if they're worried about spoilers they shouldn't start reading those posts until they've finished chapter 10. Later sections will be cumulative, so the next section for discussion would be, say, chapters 1 through 20.
Thank you Everyman for your wonderful job of leading this group. I guess it depends on how long the sections are. I looked, and chapters 1-10 is about 200 pages. Depending on whether it holds my interest I could read it in a couple of days or a couple of years. It took me 4 years to read Faust and I still didn't get much out of it. I will probably get a good translation at the library within the week.I, personally, am not worried about spoilers because if it is difficult for me to get into the book, discussion might help pique my interest.
I am going to say maybe 2 weeks but if we want to discuss more Greek tragedies, probably longer.
July 1 is a little over two weeks from now that might be a good starting date for DQ especially if we're just discussin the first ten chapters.
Everyman wrote: "I agree completely (remarks quoted below). I think we need to take a slow pace with these discussions for several reasons. First, some of us are indeed busy and are slower reader than others (I'm..."Just wanted to say thanks for understanding, and for all the work you are doing with leading and organizing this new book club, Everyman! I feel better about taking the time now to read all three of the Theban plays by Sophocles, and will catch up on DQ as soon as I am able. These all seem like such great works that I don't want to develop a negative conatation with any of them! I'm just glad to find a group where the topics aren't all about Amazon's bestsellers to the exclusion of truly great books!
And just to clarify - are we doing the first ten chapters of DQ to start? By when? Or was this just a random proposal? That's only 82 pages in my Penguin (Rutherford) edition so certainly more than obtainable. We're supposed to have rain and cool temps this weekend so I might be able to catch up rather quickly.
Paula wrote: "And just to clarify - are we doing the first ten chapters of DQ to start? By when? Or was this just a random proposal? "That was just a random example.
But one thing we should discuss: do people want to do just part 1, or both part 1 and part 2?
My understanding is that part 1 was published independently and was all Cervantes was intending to write, but, I have read, a rival was planning to write a sequel to DQ, there being no copyright protection in those days, and so several years after publishing Part 1, Cervantes rushed out Part 2 to forestall him (or maybe he had already published and Cervantes wanted to supersede him, I forget which). At any rate, Part 1 was originally written to stand alone, and Part 2 was written in haste and I understand is not of the same quality as Part 1.
My personal preference would be to read only Part 1, since there are so many other great books I want to get to. But if there are people who think that as long as we're reading it we should read it all, or people who have greater knowledge of the value of Part 2, I will be glad to defer to the will of the members.
It doesn't matter to me either way, I guess.
I personally can't stop a book part-way through. If we don't do both parts here I'll just end up finishing the book on my own anyway. I say we get through the full book, which could make for some interesting topics about the differences between the two parts.
I will have to finish it on my own if I start it too Paula. :)
I agree with Paula and Dianna, I cannot start a book and not finish it... I have, but it was nothing close to a Cervantes or Dante work
Okay -- we'll go with the whole book.I've set up a folder for the discussion (though on my screen it doesn't show on the first page), with the discussion to start July 1.
I'll post a more detailed proposed schedule there soon.
I have started reading the author's preface in my translation that I have available just for the heck of it and I am laughing my head off already. I think it is going to be kind of like watching the Colbert Report or something.
I'll probably read only part 1 at this time because of other obligations, but I'll follow the notes of those who continue and read part 2 later.
My personal preference would be to read only Part 1, since there are so many other great books I want to get to. But if there are people who think that as long as we're reading it we should read it all, or people who have greater knowledge of the value of Part 2, I will be glad to defer to the will of the members.Breaking the reading up into its two parts is an excellent suggestion. The first part has 24 chapters, and the second part has 16, but the length of those chapters are such that the two parts are actually about equal in size.
That said, I read Don Quixote only a few years ago, and it still might be too soon for me to want to reread it, but it is an excellent choice for discussion. I've heard it said that it is the most quoted work, even beyond the works of the great Shakespeare himself. I don't know if that is actually true, but with a little convincing I could believe it. Perhaps this is tilting at windmills, but maybe you could make it a goal in the reading to find what all those quotable quotes are? I'd be much obliged. :)
I am confused about the first part and the second part. Maybe that is because I am using the wrong translation; I had this Harvard Classics Edition available and started the Author's Preface and could not put the book down. I guess my book is only the first part; I just read that on the title page so I guess the first part is all I will be reading for now.
I am going to name the next pet I have Sancho Panza.
Gerald wrote: "I'm ready to begin The Divine Comedy. Also Gargantua and Pantegruel, Don Quixote, and (god forbid) Les Miserables..."I've read all three books in The Divine Comedy -- you could probably do an entire discussion on the numerology alone. Dante was in love with the numbers 3 and 9.
My print copies of Gargantua and Pantagruel are in the original French, I think, which would make me slow to participate in a discussion of them. But I might have the English translations on my eBookwise -- I haven't opened it yet to be sure. Would love to have more background information on these before I even consider starting them as I know nothing about Rabelais' work.
Started Les Misérables some time ago and so far love it.
Loved Don Quixote, of course. Am I the only one with the Walter Starkie translation?
I've kept kinda quiet in this matter, but I have been looking forward to this since spanish is my first language. I'm curios, beacuse most of the names in Don Quixote are very symbolic and I don't know if these reflect in the English Translations.For example, Dulcinea, the name itself evokes sweetness (Dulce means sweet, and Dulcinea is like saying The Sweet One),
Also (particularly for Dianna who wants to name her next cat), Sancho Panza, panza means belly, so this names also says alot about its character, Sancho has always been seen in our culture as a follower, never a leader, and sort of a clumsy one as well.
I don't know if I'm telling you guys things you already knew, I was just curiose about wheather or not the translations reflect this.
April wrote: "I've heard it said that it is the most quoted work, even beyond the works of the great Shakespeare himself. I don't know if that is actually true, but with a little convincing I could believe it. Perhaps this is tilting at windmills, but maybe you could make it a goal in the reading to find what all those quotable quotes are? I'd be much obliged. :)"I accept with immense gratitude your generous offer to take on that task for the group. [vbg!:]
Elky wrote: "I've kept kinda quiet in this matter, but I have been looking forward to this since spanish is my first language. ..."Excellent! I hope you will be willing to be our Virgil (or our Beatrice, or both!) for this journey. I look forward to your insights as to many of the untranslatable aspects of the work.
Everyman wrote: "I accept with immense gratitude your generous offer to take on that task for the group. [vbg!:]."LOL, sneaky! :)
Sparknotes.com lists classic books in fifteen subjects under Study Guide Categories. The website dissects characters, content, and other thematic concerns. Extra goodies like Quiz, Study Questions AND Complete Text round out the offerings. Literature includes Don Quixote and Les Misérables. Poetry analyzes Inferno from Divine Comedy.
Everyman wrote: "Elky wrote: "I've kept kinda quiet in this matter, but I have been looking forward to this since spanish is my first language. ..."Excellent! I hope you will be willing to be our Virgil (or our ..."
I'd love to help in any way I can, don't know if in the same way Virgil did... but I hope to live up to the expectations :)
Patrice wrote: "Fantastic Elky! I'm so glad you're here to help us. I knew that dulce was sweet but the rest of the names are foreign to me. ":)
