Classics and the Western Canon discussion
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Laljit wrote: "With regard to quotable quotes, would it be possible to set up a new discussion thread for each book we read where we can compile quotations from the book we are reading? Not just "famous quotes" ..."Good suggestion. I'll try to remember to do it, but if I don't, you can.
Laljit wrote: "Everyman: No problem. I started up the thread under "scheduled reading - Don Quixote;" however, I noted that the folder doesn't actually appear yet. Is that scheduled to become visible at a later d..."I think it just takes goodreads a few minutes to get the folders up. I see two that you set up in there. Thanks!
It's fine to start early suggesting reference materials which may interest readers as they start the reading. But let's hold off on the quotes until the official start of the reading -- and even then people should only include quotes from sections which are under discussion (no quotes from Part 2 in the first few weeks, for example!)
Laljit wrote: "certainly. I just wanted to start up the appropriate threads. Unfortunately, I wouldn't let me create the threads without text in them. Didn't meant to "jump the gun.""Not a problem. I like to see enthusiasm!
I was curious about the DQ translation question, so at the bookstore I read the first two (long) sentences of the prologue in the five different translations on the shelf. I didn't expect them to be very different, but I was surprised. Some practically didn't make any sense at all and they were all different from one another to some degree.My favorite turned out to be Grossman, so I bought it. I never thought before about how important the translation might be in making a book enjoyable; I hope my efforts to get a "good" translation mean this will be a great read.
(I'm jumping into this conversation late... I hope that's OK.)
I'm thinking now, maybe instead of re-reading my Walter Starkie translation, I should go out and buy the Grossman translation. :-\
April wrote: "I'm thinking now, maybe instead of re-reading my Walter Starkie translation, I should go out and buy the Grossman translation. :-\"I have the Grossman on my Kindle and am also listening to the Tobias Smollet translation read by Robert Whitfield and enjoying the feel and smell and pictures in the Easton Press leatherbound Collectors Edition translated by John Ormsby and illustrated by Edy Legrand.
April wrote: "I'm thinking now, maybe instead of re-reading my Walter Starkie translation, I should go out and buy the Grossman translation. :-\"I think you should look at some other translations, but don't take mine or anyone else's word as to which is the right translation for you! And maybe you can get it from the library...
Laurele: You rock girl. Three at once?!?!
I'm going to put up Plutarch's Lives. Not that I'm suggesting we read all of them at once. But reading the best known ones, possibly one pair of lives as "palate cleaners" between longer works, would be an interesting break. If you haven't read any of the Lives, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.
Patrice wrote: "I would LOVE that! I just checked next years readings in my class and there was Plutarch! Also, Thucyides. Still, I'd love to do The Republic with you!"Yes to all of the above, as far as I'm concerned!
Patrice wrote: "i thought I'd put out my reading list for the fall and see if anyone is interested in any of the books. Once September comes I won't have time to read anything else.l. Plato's Symposium
2. Pluta..."
Those are all good possibilities.
Which Plutarch lives does your program include?
What about Proust? I know nothing about him or what he's written except that he's revered by many.I can generate a long list of things I've wanted to read for a while out of a sense of either interest or duty, but I'm not sure all of it will qualify as "classic".
Well guys, I can see that many of you are head and shoulders above me but I am game to try whatever you pick and promise to do my best!
Kit wrote: "What about Proust? I know nothing about him or what he's written except that he's revered by many."Proust's major work is a six volume work usually translated either as In Search of Lost Time or Remembrance of Times Past. It's one of those books that I know I should read but have never found the time to tackle (each of the six volumes is a full length book in its own right). I agree that it would be a good book to read, but I doubt we could hold this group together for all of it.
Really, it should have its own goodreads group all to itself. Ah -- I've just searched goodreads, and in fact there are several Proust reading groups, only one of which apparently is currently active.
http://www.goodreads.com/group/show/1...
They apparently just started reading it this spring, so maybe people who are interested could jump in and try to catch up with the group.
Patrice wrote: "i thought I'd put out my reading list for the fall and see if anyone is interested in any of the books. Once September comes I won't have time to read anything else.l. Plato's Symposium
2. Pluta..."
I have read Gulliver's Travels and Pride and Prejudice and enjoyed both of them.
I read some of the Lives as an undergraduate. Whilst the Gracchi are interesting for late Roman Republican history, their Greek parallel is little known.Can I suggest Pyrrhos/Marius, Alexander/Caesar and Demetrius/Marc Antony. The last one interests me a lot, as Cicero hated Antony with a passion it'll be interesting to see what Plutarch and his sources made of him.
It might be interesting to re-read Pride and Prejudice with others for their input but I can think of so many other books I would rather read. Was Jane Austen spoofing her society when she wrote the book because I might need to read it again and get a laugh since the first time I read it I was trying to take it seriously and thought it was ludicrous.
Concerning the selection of future books, one group here has a practice where they have a list of every suggested book that fits into their genre, then rather than voting for all of them, the moderator takes a random number generator and randomly selects four titles which go into a poll for the one the group wants to read. It's an interesting approach that solves the problem of having to select among a large number of books and makes sure that every book suggested has a fair crack at being selected for future reading. OTOH, when there is a developing consensus on one or two books that are obvious top runners, those might well not get picked as candidates for some time.
What do folks think about this concept? Is it too gimmicky, or is it a reasonable approach to dealing with a large number of recommended suggestions?
Laljit wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Concerning the selection of future books, one group here has a practice where they have a list of every suggested book that fits into their genre, then rather than voting for all o..."I will go along with whatever the group or you decide, Everyman. I am enjoying the renewed exposure to all of these great works and the great information that is being disseminated!
Laljit wrote: "With regard to Plutarch and the Pelo. War ... would those be considered literature? I have always categorized them as history."I'm not sure whether one would consider them literature as such, that's a definitional line I don't personally consider that important, but they are certainly classics, and part of the Western canon, and therefore very appropriate titles for this discussion group.
Laljit wrote: "With regard to Plutarch and the Pelo. War ... would those be considered literature? I have always categorized them as history."One of the reasons I fell in love with Classics was that the lines we often create in the modern world simply don't exist in the ancient. Ancient 'histories' are rife with morals, rhetoric and, effectively, 'plot-lines', all of which don't really figure in our modern definition of history. I think it's worthwhile reading the ancient 'histories' alongside the 'literature' as we can really see how the two intersect.
I just came from a library book sale and happened to be looking through the classics when I overheard one of the volunteers saying he had just read Plutarch's Lives, a few months ago and loved it.
I will do anything. I will muddle along on both fronts but I am willing to do that in the interest of furthering my mind!!! ;-)
I'm thinking we might want to do one pair of lives from Plutarch and other short items (maybe other plays, a Platonic dialogue, that sort of thing) as a mental palate cleansers between longer readings. (I'm considering just exercising moderator's choice and selecting these short items myself and having the group choose the longer readings, but we'll see.)But if we're going to use the "select four books at random from our book list to vote on" approach, we need to get more books onto our bookshelves. In this group, anybody can add books to the bookshelf. It's easy! Just click on the "bookshelf" menu choice just above the "discussions" item. In the box under "Add books" type the title, author, or other finding information and click Search. When you find what you want, click on Add to Group. Be sure to click on Choose Shelves, and then mark both to-read and suggested future readings. Click close (not save, that's for new shelves), and then save group book.
It sounds a bit complicated, but it's not.
To give people plenty of time to get the books they need, or find them on line, I'll try to schedule future reads well in advance of their start date.
Eman,I think the select and vote option is a good one. We can limit the choices but have some say in what we read. And I'd be fine with you choosing the shorter works. Maybe some of us will get inspired and give you some suggestions as well.
Thanks for all your hard work.
Kit wrote: "Eman,... And I'd be fine with you choosing the shorter works. Maybe some of us will get i..."I would look forward to it. Bring 'em on!
I just added a bunch of titles to the group shelves that I've taken from the Great Books of the Western World series. I'm not done with the list (and I'm not putting in everything there - just the things that interest me). Anyway, we have a lot more to choose from now... I hope I'm not the only one interested in these!
How about we do a blend of your suggestions, Everyman? We could take the three random choices from the overall list, then add in 1-2 that pop up in discussions a bit more frequently. That way the group can vote on 4-5 and its a bit more inclusive. Also, I think the novel, as we know it, was only "invented" about 300 years ago, so most things before that are epic poems or histories. I would love to do Plutarch's Lives - I don't really feel like I've had much to contribute to discussions so far but have thoroughly enjoyed following along with other people's ideas as I'm reading!
One final comment - I think Harold Bloom's list is great, but don't think we should focus just on his list either. For example, he doesn't seem to be a fan of female writers (with a few exceptions such as George Eliot or Virginia Woolf) but that might just be my hang-up.
Either way, this group seems to have great taste in books so I'm up for whatever is chosen. By the way, Everyman - great work as moderator!!
I looked up Plutarch's Lives and there are two volumes. Is that what everyone is referring to and is it on our list of suggestions? Laurele was kind enough to add my suggestions to the list for me, (The Idiot and The Trial). Maybe someone could add Plutarch. The last time I tried to add books, I wound up editing the entire list and had to put it back, a bit incorrectly. I assume Everyman set it right, though, because it was soon called suggested-future-readings, once again.
I would read Plutarch, as well.
Paula wrote: "How about we do a blend of your suggestions, Everyman? We could take the three random choices from the overall list, then add in 1-2 that pop up in discussions a bit more frequently. That way the group can vote on 4-5 and its a bit more inclusive.That's an excellent idea.
Also, I think the novel, as we know it, was only "invented" about 300 years ago, so most things before that are epic poems or histories.
Those are certainly major aspects of pre-novel writing, but there's much more than that, I would suggest. We also have the Greek drama and other plays, various books of the Bible (Job is a particularly powerful work which I may at some point bring up as a shorter read), philosophy (Aristotle, Plato, Boethius, et. al), mythology (Appolonius, Hesoid), personal memoirs (think Augustine's Meditations), essays (Addison, Steele, Lamb, Johnson, and on and on), theology (I have never read any of John Donne's sermons, but I've read that they are very much worth reading even for non-Christians), travel, to name just some. There's such a wealth of wonderful writing out there!
One final comment - I think Harold Bloom's list is great, but don't think we should focus just on his list either. For example, he doesn't seem to be a fan of female writers (with a few exceptions such as George Eliot or Virginia Woolf) but that might just be my hang-up.
I agree that Bloom is just one of many sources. About five years ago I picked up the Norton Anthologies of English and American literature just to fill out some of the holes in my library, and if I ever get time I may go through them to pick up some of the worthwhile reading that is less known than the traditional standards.
I think early on we might want to be a bit more committed to "major" classics because, after all, there is a reason they've remained major classics for so long. But it would also be fun to intersperse some of the great books that are not as widely read, at least in part because it would offer an opportunity for most of us to come at a book for the first time together.
We're getting a wonderful set of reading suggestions on the bookshelf! I've done a bit of cleaning up where the same book was suggested by several people; in those cases, I've deleted duplicates. That's not a big deal, but if you do want to check before you post a book to see whether it's already been posted, the easiest way (I find) is to click twice on the "author" column heading to sort the books by author. (Unless you prefer to sort by title, but that can be more confusing because sometimes different editions list the titles slightly differently.)
Anyhow, thanks to all who are populating the list with such great offerings.
I finished Don Quixote prior to joining the group and I found a good copy of Anna Karenina at a newly discovered independent bookstore in my town. So I have started that. Obviously have while with DQ, but that would be one vote for Tolstoy next?
Pearce wrote: "I finished Don Quixote prior to joining the group and I found a good copy of Anna Karenina at a newly discovered independent bookstore in my town. So I have started that. Obviously have while with DQ, but that would be one vote for Tolstoy next? "
AK is on our bookshelf. We're still working through the process of how to choose our next book, but initially we're going to do this. I will take the moderator's prerogative to choose a short work as a sort of interlude before our next major read. Then I will run a random generator and select four (or maybe more since we have so many books on the bookshelf) books at random on which we will vote. Or I will probably also, if I remember to do it, add in a poll choice "don't like any of these, would like a new set."
Actually, though, I'm probably going to cheat a bit for the next selection. Patrice, who is a stalwart here, is so tied up in her coursework that she can only participate actively if we choose one of the books she's already reading for her courses. So I'll probably slip one or two of those into the selection mix, in the event that any of them appeal to the group.
Her readings this term, in case people want to express a strong preference for or against any of them, are Thucydides Peloponesian war, selections from Plutarch, Pride and Prejudice, Plato's Symposium, and Gulliver's Travels. I'll probably use some Plutarch and some Platonic dialogues as short readings, since I doubt that we want to read all of Plutarch in one sitting, but the others are definite possibilities to include in the voting mix.
We had so many people pulling for so many favorite books they wanted to read that a random lottery of all the books people wanted to put on the list seemed a reasonable idea to try.
As a reminder, though we already have 120 plus books on the list, there's still room for people to add any favorites they really want to see considered.
Everyman wrote: "We're still working through the process of how to choose our next book..."My only remark is that as for me I'd prefer some rhythm in the readings as for length: after 1000+ DQ pages a short text would be nice. But again, it is just my taste (and I have to admit this is the way - quasi - I read outside this group too).
Kinga wrote: "My only remark is that as for me I'd prefer some rhythm in the readings as for length: after 1000+ DQ pages a short text would be nice."We are planning to intersperse short readings between full length works.
Elky wrote: "I've kept kinda quiet in this matter, but I have been looking forward to this since spanish is my first language. I'm curios, beacuse most of the names in Don Quixote are very symbolic and I don't ..."The names in my translation (John Rutherford) are untranslated, so I fear we're missing out on those jokes directly (though quite a bit of those sorts of things are explained in the 2 introductions).
edit: apparently I didn't quite see that there were 3 pages in stead of 1 in this discussion already :P
Reading The Peloponesian Wars sounds good to me, or how about Herodotus' Histories?
Peregrine wrote: "Reading The Peloponesian Wars sounds good to me, or how about Herodotus' Histories?"Both good options. But very different approaches to history.
Which one would you be more likely to participate in a discussion of?
Everyman wrote: "Peregrine wrote: "Reading The Peloponesian Wars sounds good to me, or how about Herodotus' Histories?"Both good options. But very different approaches to history.
Which one would you be more ..."
I'd be there for either one. I've never read either, know little about them, and would be encouraged in my reading by the certainty of discussion about them. Also, they're both remaindered at McNally Robinson, so I'm going to pick both of them up anyway.
Thucy is more of a cynic (and tells stories of war), whereas Herodotus plays the part of the tourist (who realises he is being 'had' by the locals, esp. in egypt, but doesn't mind so much) who has lots of good stories to tell, some of which he believes, and others he does not (note passages where he says things like "it is said" etc).If you want a more modern Thucydides (with lots of normative conclusions attached that Thucydides leaves up to the reader), read Hobbes's Leviathan. A lot of the psychological insights in there can be traced back to Thucydides, and they're fairly comparable. (Though I'd recommend skipping Hobbes's explanations of Mechanical Man, etc.)
Foppe wrote: "Thucy is more of a cynic (and tells stories of war), whereas Herodotus plays the part of the tourist (who realises he is being 'had' by the locals, esp. in egypt, but doesn't mind so much)..."That's pretty accurate. Thucydides is a much more rigorous historian who wants to be very sure of any fact he offers as true, whereas Herodotus was more of a social chronicler, a sort of traveling vacuum cleaner picking up all sorts of odd bits of information and retailing it with, as you note, often very appropriate skepticism. Frankly, I think he's a lot more fun to read, but if you want straight history, T is probably going to appeal to you more, at least as long as you're interested in the Peloponnesian War.
Everyman wrote: "Herodotus was more of a social chronicler, a sort of traveling vacuum cleaner picking up all sorts of odd bits of information and retailing it with, as you note, often very appropriate skepticism."I haven't read Herodotus since college, but I do recall the scene where Xerxes whips the Hellespont. I remember we nicknamed the dorm shower after that episode because the water pressure was set way too high and it was almost unbearable. I read Thucydides again a few years back, along with Donald Kagan's Peloponnesian War, which I found highly engaging. The Iraq War had started the year before, and I couldn't help but draw parallels. I'd be interested in either one, but Herodotus a little more because it's one I'd like to revisit.
Just a quick For What It's Worth: from my own personal experience---not necessarily that of others----I found that I got so much more out of the readings if I struggled with them, and tried to determine what they were saying to me before I would take a peek at resources such as Sparknotes.
Sparknotes, Cliffnotes.com, GradeSavers, etc., are wonderful...but oft times, I think, if you look at them too early in the game they almost preclude one from coming up with one's own thoughts on the subject.
The questions though, I'm with you on that. They can serve as a point at which to start getting a handle on the material.