Q&A with Dave Cullen discussion
COLUMBINE Q&A w/ Dave Cullen June 10-24, 2009
date
newest »
newest »
Dave Wrote "Now whether he really fooled his mom and dad, that is THE question. He clearly fooled them some of the time, but did they also get that they were getting played a lot of the time? I don't know. Parents of psychopaths are typically very confused about what's going on with their kid. They hardly ever know what a psychopath is, or guess that that's what they're dealing with."
"I'd love to ask them. I hope to some day. Or I hope someone else asks. I'm with you on hoping they can work with some experts to shed more light on this."
Dave,
Being a mental case myself I know that when I was going through diagnosis in the beginning my parents thought well its not anything to worry about you just have to get over it. Now after a proper diagnosis about 6 years aog of PTSD and being on the correct meds for that long too my mother still tells me that I will grow out of this. When you wrote in the bok that if you go through something and it effects you and it goes untreated at the time, then you may need treatment for the rest of your life when you do finally get help. That was an "ah ha" moment for me because I knew that from the start of my treatment and I hate that I have to take meds everyday but its part of my life now and our parents who are of the generation where its not talked about if you have a mental illness because there is really nothing wrong with you need to come to terms with that.
Also, since seeking help medically I have discovered that it is hereditary in some way. On my fathers side there were boughts of bi-polar with my Grandmother, then my father, one of my cousins and also me that I know of for sure. So there you go.
They did do a scan of my brain activity and saw that I just do not produce seretonon anymore. I lived for so long swallowing the pain and terror of experiences from childhood that it just stoped. So now I take meds and am doing great in my everyday life.
This book will live on as something every parent who has a child should read so we can be thankful and also know what to look for in then when things are not going the way they should
Thanks
Jennifer
"I'd love to ask them. I hope to some day. Or I hope someone else asks. I'm with you on hoping they can work with some experts to shed more light on this."
Dave,
Being a mental case myself I know that when I was going through diagnosis in the beginning my parents thought well its not anything to worry about you just have to get over it. Now after a proper diagnosis about 6 years aog of PTSD and being on the correct meds for that long too my mother still tells me that I will grow out of this. When you wrote in the bok that if you go through something and it effects you and it goes untreated at the time, then you may need treatment for the rest of your life when you do finally get help. That was an "ah ha" moment for me because I knew that from the start of my treatment and I hate that I have to take meds everyday but its part of my life now and our parents who are of the generation where its not talked about if you have a mental illness because there is really nothing wrong with you need to come to terms with that.
Also, since seeking help medically I have discovered that it is hereditary in some way. On my fathers side there were boughts of bi-polar with my Grandmother, then my father, one of my cousins and also me that I know of for sure. So there you go.
They did do a scan of my brain activity and saw that I just do not produce seretonon anymore. I lived for so long swallowing the pain and terror of experiences from childhood that it just stoped. So now I take meds and am doing great in my everyday life.
This book will live on as something every parent who has a child should read so we can be thankful and also know what to look for in then when things are not going the way they should
Thanks
Jennifer
Hi. I'm Martha's friend April and I'm in charge of a New Jersey National Reading Group Month event. She suggested that you might want to participate in this all day event. It's for librarians who run reading groups. Not sure where you are located but if its close to NJI can give you more details if you're interested. She raves about the book although I haven't yet read it it's on my list of to reads. My email is bookdirector@yahoo.com. Thanks for your consideration-April Judge
Mod
April, thanks very much. I'll email.
Mod
Feel free to jump in at any point.
Mod
I will be here Wed, and then I'm on the road for five days, but will check back for open questions next week.
Dave,I just finished your excellent book today and I have a feeling it is going to haunt me for a while. I don't have any questions for you but I do want to encourage you to keep writing, whether it be non-fiction or fiction. Throughout the book, I was impressed by the empathy of your voice, the diligence of your research, and the sound judgment you used in presenting the information.
Based on the events that occurred before and after the tragedy, I could see how a book about Columbine could have devolved into an angry rant about so many different groups of people, i.e. the killers, the killers' parents, the police, the media, the local Christian community, the greedy opportunists (a paid tour bus to the school within weeks of the tragedy?!), and on and on. And there's no doubt that many of those people deserve such a book. Learning more about the events surrounding the tragedy certainly didn't give me the warm fuzzies about humanity as we are clearly capable of some embarrassingly cold-hearted behavior.
You let the facts speak for themselves and left the judgment up to the reader. If you had an agenda, I didn't see one. Unless your agenda was to pull back the rock and expose all of the creatures that were hiding beneath the surface. If so, then I say mission accomplished. Now go find another rock!
Chris wrote: "Dave,
I just finished your excellent book today and I have a feeling it is going to haunt me for a while. I don't have any questions for you but I do want to encourage you to keep writing, whethe..."
WEll Said Chris.
I agree 100%.
YOu said everything that I have been trying to put into words to let Dave know how I feel. I think this is an awesome book. No warm fuzzies but we did come out of it know more than we did when the tragedy took place.
Knowledge is power and the correct knowledge is unstopable
Jennifer
I just finished your excellent book today and I have a feeling it is going to haunt me for a while. I don't have any questions for you but I do want to encourage you to keep writing, whethe..."
WEll Said Chris.
I agree 100%.
YOu said everything that I have been trying to put into words to let Dave know how I feel. I think this is an awesome book. No warm fuzzies but we did come out of it know more than we did when the tragedy took place.
Knowledge is power and the correct knowledge is unstopable
Jennifer
Mod
Feel free to keep posting, if you like, and I'll get to everyone.
Have a nice weekend.
d
Hey Dave,First of all, English's not my first language so I'm sorry for the possible mistakes.
My name is Shira, I'm 18 years old and I live in Israel.
I'm just in the beginning of the book, but I have to admit that right now I am still kind of suspicious because I'm pretty sure (after studying the whole subject myself since I was 13) that Eric was NOT a "charmer", and you can even see how he's simply being ignored by the blond girl when he's sitting in the cafeteria with his friends in that obscure video you've written about in your book.
So, as I've already mentioned, I'm just in the beginning, but I have an important (for me, at least) question to ask you:
In page 40, you describe how exactly Dylan's calls out "Bye" and shuts the door.
It might sound stupid, but - well, I was just wondering... how can you tell such a small detail?
Anyways, I am very curious to read the rest of the book and admire your devotion to the whole process (without getting into the Eric-was-a-charmer issue).
Shira
Mod
In page 40, you describe how exactly Dylan's calls out "Bye" and shuts the door.
It might sound stupid, but - well, I was just wondering... how can you tell such a small detail? "
Hi Shira. Your English if fine. That detail came from his parents, who he called out the "bye" to. They told police investigators. I have no reason to doubt them on such an innocuous detail, nor did investigators. (I went over the manuscript page with Kate Battan.)
On p. 366 in the endnotes, I listed the various sources for the killers' activities that day.
Thanks for the nice words. Why do you feel Eric was not a charmer?
Mod
I just finished your excellent book today and I have a feeling it is going to haunt me for a while. I don't have any questions for you but I do want to encourage you to keep writing, whethe..."
Thanks, Chris. I do hope to keep writing the rest of my life, but I sure appreciate the encouragement. I love it, but it can be a rough life, too. (Are there any untormented writers out there? hahaha.) The outpouring of love here and elsewhere has definitely kept me going, and I expect to draw on it for years to come.
Dave wrote: "Shira wrote: "In page 40, you describe how exactly Dylan's calls out "Bye" and shuts the door.
It might sound stupid, but - well, I was just wondering... how can you tell such a small detail? "
H..."
Oh, that makes sense. I was just sure they were asleep when he left the house and couldn't hear the "bye".
I am reading the endotes every time that I finish a chapter. The so-called stoic description of the potato skins in Dylan's stomach had totally freaked me out. To think of him, Just sitting there that day, eating french fries...
Regarding to Eric - see, you're the first to understand that it's a very, very complicated issue to discuss (especially online and especially when I'm having a little trouble with the language), but I'll try to summarize my thoughts:
Even as an 18 years old girl, I can see how it is possible that an adult will see Eric Harris as a "charmer": He was extremely intelligent, really a little "smooth criminal", he was not an all-American-beauty but he was not ugly as well, he had an interest in a various of different things etc.
BUT, and that is an important "but", when you're a kid (elementary school, junior high, high school) these things don't count. Most of the kids this age (and especially most girls) are looking on the very surface and are looking for specific things that Eric was NOT.
That is my basic, generic point when it comes to this issue. I hope that I've been clear.
I've also wanted to say that up until now, the book is just fabulous, and it's so kind of you to come here and answer the readers questions.
Shira
I just came upon this group and haven't read through the whole discussion, so forgive me if this issue has been further commented on: Dave, let me ease your mind about the longevity of books in libraries. I'm a librarian and can tell you that your book will likely remain on many library shelves for years; perhaps decades. Small libraries weed their collections more frequently, but larger ones (with lots of shelf space) keep things FOREVER (we have a book on the Columbian Exposition published ca. 1892). And, having read your book, I think it will be considered a classic on the subject which will be studied for years to come. Our copies are still going out on reserve, so word of mouth is definitely making it circulate.The strongest feeling I came away with after reading the book was the fervent wish that I could apologize to Dylan's parents: I was one who placed a lot of the blame on the parents in the early days (how could they NOT know?....). But time; having raised my own sons to college age (they were in elementary school in 1999); and especially your accounts of Dylan and his parents made me grieve for them. Eric and his parents are seemingly a different story, but it's clear that they were 2 very different kids. I am honestly newly saddened for the loss they sustained, and the circumstances surrounding that loss.
Mod
Man, I love the sound of that. That's really the bottom line: getting the book to readers. It's hard to keep books in print these days, so I don't know how long it will be on bookstore shelves for people to find, but it can live on in libraries. Thank God for libraries.
Thank you. I've been wondering how that works.
Mod
If you're on Facebook, clicking on it and adding yourself as a friend would be great:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Columbi...
(I think more fans will mean more people will find it on facebook searches. That's the goal: connecting with people who might be interested in the book, but are unaware of it. There is so much out there. Finding ways to connect is the hard part.)
Thanks.
Dave:Just finished reading your book, and I walk away with a much clearer picture of the event in so many aspects. Thanks for taking the time to put together such an amazing work, and I look forward to the revised edition in 2027 or shortly thereafter!
Stephen
Mod
BTW, former Newsweek corespondent Michael Hastings just published an in-depth interview with me about the book:
http://trueslant.com/michaelhastings/...
Dave,I finished your book a few days ago. It really was well written and very enlightening. I am a parent of 3 teenagers and I remember that when the Columbine incident happened, I followed it religiously in the media. I watched everything, read everything I could find. I wanted to understand but never really did get a clear picture of what happened.... there was so much emphasis on bullying and the Trench Coat Mafia aspect. I am really glad I read your book. It certainly reminded me of something I knew but I guess forgot... be very careful of what you believe that is being reported in the media. I have learned this is true in almost every area... Iraq war, politics, etc. Thanks again.
Hi Dave!I just finished reading your book yesterday and it was amazing! I thought I knew the gist of what took place 10 years ago from the TV reports and newspapers, but I could not have been more wrong, so I wanted to take a minute and thank you for opening my eyes. This book was a difficult read and often I had to set it down because I couldn't read through my tears, but I came away with a much better understanding of all parties involved. Congratulations and much success!
Eve :)
Mod
I'm glad you got to the book, and this discussion.
I had similar feelings as I discovered what happened over the years. At first I was stunned, then angry, then just hungry to unravel more. It was such a relief to get to a point where it started to make sense. There are still bits that frustrate and/or puzzle me, but I really do feel like I understand it and them now. I hope you did when you finished.
Hi Dave, I thought Columbine was well written and extensively researched. You bring some light and understanding to a tragedy that left a nation shaking it's collective head in pain and confusion. Though the topic is a difficult one to read about, you do not sensationalize it. I was not familiar with the details of the story, so much of the material was new to me. I was quickly draw into the story.
I wish you had used footnotes and not just notes at the back of the book. It would have made things clearer. But that may just be a pet peeve of mine. :)
I think a non fiction book requires photographs. I would have liked photo's of the people mentioned in the book. I think a diagram of the school would have helped. I would also have liked to seen a picture of what the journals the boys wrote looked like. I know you have some of these on your web site, and CNN has a lot of good photo's and links. But when I read a non fiction book, I don't want to have to go to the Internet to get a complete picture of the subject. I know photos are expensive and this your first book, but I think the publisher should have sprang for it.
You chose to use the boys thoughts verbatim without quotation marks. I think this was a mistake. I was left at times wondering why you were was lapsing into colloquial speech. For example, calling girls "chicks" on page 136 and a few other times in the book or on page 278 "the jerk ratted him out to his Eric's dad" or 279 "Man he was good that night" On another page "bastard". It would interrupt the flow as I had to re-read sentences because on the initial read I thought these were the your words.
You paint a glowing picture of the principal. Did he try to prevent bullying at the school?
And when it comes to the two boys, Eric gets the most heat from the you. I have to say the chapters where you discusses Eric as a psychopath are riveting and informative. But you're unsympathetic to this mental disease. Even though Eric was on meds from his Dr. at the time of the killing. Did you think Dr. Albert should have seen this coming and done more? Dylan's diagnosis of depression gets a much more sympathetic ear. I am not clear why. They both were mentally unstable. Perhaps Eric's disease was worse.
I did wonder about (page 55) a boy who was shot said "Ned Harris" did it. A cop didn't have paper/pen so wrote the name on hood of patrol car. Who was Ned? Was that a nickname for Eric or someone else?
I like that when it came to the actually killings you didn't get too graphic. It's done in a respectful way. Though you do go into graphic detail with the boys suicide. I wish you hadn't done that. You brilliantly shed light on the police cover up, the church's use of the tragedy as a recruiting tool, and bust the myth of Cassie being shot for professing her faith to one of the killers. You clearly explains how that poor teacher was left unnecessarily to bleed to death. And even though the parents didn't grant you an interview, you were able to shed light on them and how, perhaps unfairly, they were made to feel that they did something wrong. I can't imagine their pain. Before I read the book, I thought the parents must have been in part to blame. How could they not have know of the arsenal their kids were creating? Now, after reading the book, I have more sympathy for them. However, when Dylan wrote a story for class that almost foretells their plans and the teacher contacted the parents, maybe they should have done more.
Sorry for this long post, I tried to edit it down from a post that I did elsewhere.
The bottom line is this book is thought provoking and well done. I would highly recommend it. Thanks for a great read and I wish you continued success as a writer.
I've dealt with a lot of troubled teenagers while working in the acute psychotic intervention unit at the Camarillo State Hospital. Most of the problems were precipitated by drug use, even "harmless" marijuana was a culprit. These boys drug use didn't seem to be a major factor in the book but I believe it was. In fact, the tragedy would not have happened but for the drug use.
I am not sure I necessarily agree with that. I know that the drug use does affect your mental stability but given that Eric has proven that he was a class "A" psyopath I would have to say that unfortunately this terrible incident would have happened regardless of the boys smoking "pot" or not. I would have to compare Eric to all the other people that have reaked havic on us in some form or another. Some of the other men that took psyopathic actions were not on pot or other illegals and they still committed things to our world that I hope I never have to explain to my kids. What would have stopped this tragedy is if the cops really did look closer at Eric the year before when the one kids mom talked to them that the search warrent was requested but never obtained. I think the whole thing would have been blown open and we would not have lost 13 great kids to useless gun vilence.
Thanks
Jennifer
Thanks
Jennifer
If you are privy to the inside information of psychopathic behavior you will find that drug use is so common that a non-drug using psychopath is so rare as to be statistically irrelevant. I've worked with some very angry and anti-social people who, after some months clean and sober, reveal themselves to be halfway decent. If these people were to relapse they would be just as disturbed as ever. The deciding factor in the negative behavior was drug and alcohol use.
Mod
Thanks, Alias. Numbered footnotes definitely help a scholarly reader or a really diligent reader who wants to check into each item, but they really get in the way and annoy most readers. They also set a certain tone--that this is like a thesis or research paper--which is at odds with what I wanted to do of immersing the reader into the story, and transporting you away. It's a tradeoff, but for this type of book I would never want to go the footnote route.
Similar with photographs: please see the discussion on it and diagrams above. It was not a matter of expense--it was my choice.
I'm unsympathetic to Eric because he knew right from wrong and enjoyed making people suffer and die.
Yes, Mr. D has worked very hard to create a positive environment in the school, including bullying.
I don't know what went on in Dr. Albert's sessions, so I can't assess what he should have foreseen.
Ned Harris was someone's slightly jumbled version in the chaos: they got one name right, not the other.
Mod
Gary, what makes you think that? I saw no evidence of it whatsoever.
And do you mean Eric's Luvox, or the drinking and using pot? Eric rarely drank or used pot. Dylan did seem to drink quite a bit.
I would agree more with Jennifer, though I don't know what the cops would actually have found. (We can never know whether Eric had any pipe bombs at the time. At most there would have likely been a few, as he had not yet started production for several months.) Also, unless Eric was put away for good--unlikely--we probably would have just delayed the problem.
That's the problem with psychopaths. Until we come up with an effective treatment, we are powerless against them. Where is that research money?
Gary, Something to think about that came to mind. Do research on Adolph Hitler. He is a class "A" psychopath and mental case without question. Hitler was not into drugs he thought they were a weakness and he felt that he needed to stay in complete control of his senses at all times. I am not sure how you view that drugs and alcohol are the thing that draw a person to committ these acts. But gasing 6 million Jews and 11,000 others just because you want to make to earth clean of a lesser race is pretty much in the same mind set that we see Eric. Even though it failed his plan was to blow up and or kill everyone on that campus that day. He did not like anyone who in his view received something more than he did there was no remorse in the action even though he knew it was wrong. That was why he ended his life because he wanted to make that final decision for himself. Hitler did the same thing. Actually there are people all through history that have committed the same type of violence and you are really going to have to prove to me that they were strung out on drugs or alcohol at the time.
As a woman once said "We are alcoholics we are generally happy just hurting ourselves"
Ok off the soap box now
Thanks
Jennifer
As a woman once said "We are alcoholics we are generally happy just hurting ourselves"
Ok off the soap box now
Thanks
Jennifer
Yeah, you may be right, I don't know that much about psychopaths. The people I met that were hospitalized for psychopathic behavior were all adolescents and they all seemed to have a history of drug and alcohol use. I've seen some incredible transformations when those substances were removed from the experience, along with counseling and 12-Step Program work.
Mod
I did not seem it come up as a major factor in the later literature. Certainly, there is no evidence that taking away substances cures psychopathy: no cure, and no treatment has been found, except for one recent study which showed promise.
Gary, from what you have written here, I doubt the teens were psychopaths.
I also think it's important to look at this case from two angles: 1) the history of behavior among people with similar mental conditions (psychopathy and angry depression), and 2) the particulars of these two boys.
#1 tells us a great deal, because people with each condition do act similarly in many respects. More importantly, it opens a great window to understand WHY these people tend to act a certain way. We'll never understand them without the vast research that's already been performed that allows us to see unmistakable patterns.
But you can't start and end with #1. that's only a framework. Each person is unique. You start with the general and work your way through the massive evidence left behind on them as individuals.
When I look at #2, I see no evidence of drugs or alcohol playing any significant role. Whether or not lots of boys are affected by them is not really germane to this case. That reality raises the issue that we should look at it in this case, but no more.
I appreciate your response Dave. My big question is how does one become a psychopath? I doubt they are born that way, so somehow, they got into wrong thinking, misperceiving. Eric had a habit of seeing everyone as stupid, and believed stupid people didn't deserve to live. He saw himself as separate and superior to the human race. I think that this kind of thinking can be changed because it obviously doesn't lead to happiness or peace of mind. If a person thinking this way can be shown that it doesn't work, and is presented with alternatives that do work, his life would turn around. There are alternatives.
Mod
Unfortunately, they have proven nearly impossible to have their thinking turned around. They enjoy a lot of the way they are.
Thanks for the response, Dave. I've recommended your book to my GR group.
Mod
I'll be in Longmont, CO at 11:30 a.m., then LA (Northridge and West Hollywood) Wed/Th, and an editor's conference in Portland Saturday. (Thursday night is at Book Soup in WeHo.)
Oct. 3, I have a homecoming event to my hometown of Elk Grove Village outside Chicago, just before my high school reunion.
Later in October I'm doing the Texas Book Festival, the Southern Book Festival and Grand Rapids' library festival, and a school safety conference in Indiana.
All the tour details are here (and you can see the book trailer there, too):
http://davecullen.com/tv-tour/tour-sc...
If you come, take pictures and post them on facebook and twitter, and send to me and I'll add to my tour-pictures page:
http://davecullen.com/tv-tour/tour-ph...
Mod
http://www.goodreads.com/award/goodre...
My category is #3.
Your votes determine the winners.
Mod
Thank you so much to everyone that voted. This made me very happy.
Dave,That is super. I think you really showed us all and Goodreads what an author/book discussion can be. It was a real pleasure to be able to converse with you and it expanded the experience of the book and the event for me. All best with your writing career.
Martha Burns
Mod
Me too and now I have to get busy and update my reading list! This motivates me.
Mod
I was stunned by how many readers I had this year through libraries. They are a wonderful gift to readers and writers. Mostly, I want readers. Libraries open the boundaries wide.
Mod
I'm reading Faulkner's Light In August now. I only seem to find time for it on planes. But it's amazing.
Mod
"The Last Columbine Mystery"--Eric's parents speak.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-an...
It's adapted from one part of the Afterword in expanded paperback edition of COLUMBINE (which will be in most bookstores by Monday).
The Afterword is mainly about "Forgiveness"--in quotes, because some of the people involved dislike the term: and how you label it is essential to how you deal with it.
Two families actually met both the Harrises and the Klebolds. I tell Linda Mauser's story in the Daily Beast piece, but Bob Curnow also met with both and had a completely different reaction.
Mod
"How to launch a paperback? My expanded edition of COLUMBINE"
http://open.salon.com/blog/dave_culle...
Mod
I have made so many friends in the Columbine community over the last eleven years. There are some extraordinary people out there, and it is one of the great pleasures of my job to get to know them. I'm thinking about you all today. I'm picturing your faces right now.
It's a rough time every year for some of the survivors, and others stopped even paying attention. (I consider everyone who lived through it a survivor, even if someone close to them did not make it--you did.) I wish each of you well.
I think the biggest thing I learned about grief and recovery is that everyone handles it differently--radically differently--and everyone has their own pace. The most frustrating thing we can do for those guys is to try to force them onto some schedule in our heads, or try to make them conform to what we think they should be thinking, feeling or doing. They want to be left to work it out themselves.
Good luck this week folks.
Mod
http://davecullen.com/watch/videos-on...
I just relaunched the book trailer on youtube. It provides a concise summary of the book and killers in 3 minutes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA22SK...
Q&A with Dave Cullen
Books mentioned in this topic
Wildfire (other topics)Columbine (other topics)
"I'd love to ask them. I hope to some day. Or I hope someone else asks. I'm with you on hoping they can work with some experts to shed more light on this."
Dave,
Being a mental case myself I know that when I was going through diagnosis in the beginning my parents thought well its not anything to worry about you just have to get over it. Now after a proper diagnosis about 6 years aog of PTSD and being on the correct meds for that long too my mother still tells me that I will grow out of this. When you wrote in the bok that if you go through something and it effects you and it goes untreated at the time, then you may need treatment for the rest of your life when you do finally get help. That was an "ah ha" moment for me because I knew that from the start of my treatment and I hate that I have to take meds everyday but its part of my life now and our parents who are of the generation where its not talked about if you have a mental illness because there is really nothing wrong with you need to come to terms with that.
Also, since seeking help medically I have discovered that it is hereditary in some way. On my fathers side there were boughts of bi-polar with my Grandmother, then my father, one of my cousins and also me that I know of for sure. So there you go.
They did do a scan of my brain activity and saw that I just do not produce seretonon anymore. I lived for so long swallowing the pain and terror of experiences from childhood that it just stoped. So now I take meds and am doing great in my everyday life.
This book will live on as something every parent who has a child should read so we can be thankful and also know what to look for in then when things are not going the way they should
Thanks
Jennifer