COLUMBINE Q&A w/ Dave Cullen June 10-24, 2009

[Dave]

I have the Oprah links I referred to Wednesday. The "Summer Reading List: 25 Books You Can't Put Down" is now the cover story at Oprah.com.

She picked Columbine as one of the 25 (it's #7, if you scroll through the list). You can get to it directly here:

http://tinyurl.com/n92kyr

We gave her exclusive rights to an excerpt--the first chapter--now on Oprah.com, which you can read at the link above, if you're interested. Her site also features new Book Club Discussion Questions for COLUMBINE.

They gave it a terrific review. A taste:

". . . Dave Cullen's spectacularly gripping account of the Colorado school shooting that shocked America a decade ago. But Cullen's chilling narrative is too vital to miss, as are his myth-busting revelations."

Thanks, Oprah.

I don't know how GoodReads people feel about Oprah, but I was very impressed by her and her staff this spring. (Despite them pulling the show we taped. I didn't like the outcome of that, but they were still classy all the way.)

If your friends are Oprah fans, do let them know. There are Send & Share buttons at the link. There is also a place to discuss any of the 25 books):

http://www.oprah.com/community/commun...

I may turn up there at some point, but I'm not sure it's appropriate for authors there. Another site where I don't really know the ground rules.

[Dave]

Jennifer wrote: "What are your thoughts on the way that Michael Moore has documented the story and focused..."

I mostly enjoyed the film, though I was surprised that it didn't have a lot to do with Columbine. What was related seemed a little silly: like the idea that (is it Martin Marietta) dominates employment there (it did at one time, when the area was mostly horse ranches) or that that somehow enters the kids' consciousness and makes them pro-war or pro-violence or something. That is sort of sitcom level thinking. His films are good as entertainment, I think.

But yes, the idea of returning the bullets inside the kids to Kmart was a wickedly funny stunt. Brilliant entertainment.

---

I'm glad you got something out of the PTSD stuff. I'll post more. Someone asked up upthread about it. I basically got in way over my head emotionally, with no idea what I was getting into. I was naive, and ignorant. I learned the hard way.

And I should point out that I love writing and I love the writing life. That's why I do it. I feel lucky to be able to do it. (I am not one of those writers who says I like having written, but hate the process. I kinda love the process. It's a struggle sometimes, but that's not always a bad thing. There are patches where every night I feel like I've spent the day wrestling, and still have not wrestled it down, but oh, when I do finally get it. And when I'm on, and it's flowing--there's nothing like that. I also love rewriting. The satisfaction I get from making a sentence sing . . .

On balance, I'm a very happy person, and I'm happy now--and frankly, relieved to be done writing the book. I felt a great weight float away in Nov and Dec of last year, after it was going to press and I had to let it go. I wouldn't give up what I've learned/experienced the last ten years for the world.

I hope I'm expressing that balance: it was a rough ten years, but rewarding. I would do it all over again.

[Dave]

Keiley,

Dylan got a prom date (Robyn asked him, though they went as friends). Eric did not. He joined them at the afterprom party.

They did not plan the attack for prom. They chose April 19, but then couldn't get all the ammo in time.

(There are various references to them mentioning other times/places as ideas for when they might conduct the attack, but they had lots of ideas. Sometimes they just batted ideas around. You have to be careful when your read/listen to their stuff to separate out the passing thoughts from the recurring themes, and the ultimate plans that gelled. Staging the attack at prom is not an idea they ever settled on.)

[[deleted user]]

Dave,

I am glad that you are proud of what you do. So many in today's life just do the job and are not anywhere near happy at it. I could not see spending 90% of my life doing something that I could not stand just to pay the bills. Yes, paying the bills is a good thing but figure out what you love and do that too. Outlets are a great and positive way to redirect yourself. If you are lucky enough to be able to create and make money at it too then there you go you are doing what Gid intended. Keep on writing and we will keep on reading.

I wanted to ask, I visited your website today and looked at some of the journal entries and the IM's how did you figure out what they were talking about? I guess because you were there from the start it all made sense to you but I could not really read the journal entries and the IM"S were very confusing.

I am looking forward to reading the book so that I can make heads or tales of Eric and Dylans writing.

Also I hope that we never go to ebooks there is something about holding book in your hand and reading the printed word that I enjoy and turning the pages. I have a great respect for books personally. I never write in them or dog ear the pages and the only real book I write in is The Bible so that I can understand what the lesson is.

I love the way you describe the point of process that you want the reader to get a picture in their mind of what you are trying to paint through words on the page. I am glad that you did not put pictures in the book for that reason. I am looking forward to seeing this tragedy through your eyes.

Thanks
Jennifer

[Shanna]

Hi Dave,

I don't really have a question, but I wanted to tell you I really enjoyed your book. I cried many times; there was just so much tragedy in so many lives.

I was reminded that when it first happened; I was only 18 and freshly out of high school myself, although I felt very removed from that part of life already. I was surprised that it hadn't affected me very strongly when it happened, but was affecting me so strongly now, 10 years later. I realized I felt particularly bad for Eric and Dylan's parents, knowing that they were left with such a terrible legacy for their sons, and having not seen it coming. I agree with a commenter above that we are not inclined to believe terrible things about the people we love. As a woman getting ready to have her own children I can tell you that scares me to no end.

I found the book to be compelling and very honestly written, and I thank you for not sensationalizing the violence of the murders.

Oh - and I had to wait two weeks to get a copy in the Chicago Public Library system, so it's definitely in high demand here! :)

- Shanna

[George]

Dave,

Thanks for taking the time to answer all of our questions. I am a mother of two boys, as well as a teacher, and I am fascinated by the story. Like Shanna, it didn't affect me as much when it happened, but now, after reading your book, I can't seem to get it out of my mind. I have a few questions if you have time.

First, are you surprised that Dylan and Eric did not hurt/kill more people? From what I understand, their original plan was to get as many people as possible. What kept them from doing that? You stated that Dylan appeared to "lose his nerve" in the cafeteria. Eric "let others go." Why?

Second, would you say that Dylan and Eric were academically gifted? I think I read that Dylan was in a program for high ability students when he was younger. Some evidence suggests that gifted students have a higher risk of suicide. I believe the term is "existential depression." Has there been any discussion about what, if any, effect this had on the two boys?

Finally, what advice can you give parents and teachers who may be thinking that they know a potentially dangerous child? The things we've been taught to do (get help, ask a counselor, talk to the police) don't seem to be enough. Eric was able to easily manipulate and deceive people. The "professionals" were fooled. What can/should we do?

Thanks again,
Denise

[Martha]

Hi Dave and GoodReaders,
I have been eager to discuss this book from the moment I found it on the publisher's (TWELVE) web site. I do not have my copy because I let it fly as soon as I read it. My daughter has it now - she also read it in about 3 days. She was a HS Senior the same year of Columbine. . . Next it will go to a life long friend and teacher - we have already discussed it at length and then to my nephew who is a principal for a small town high school. This book begs to be discussed - I have recommended it to my LIbrary reading group. And my sister and I are the founders of National Reading Group Month (see it online) and I hope that many groups will consider it for their October when we celebrate shared reading.

As for libraries - I've worked in two lovely New Jersey libraries. They are alive and vibrant. Books like Columbine however are problematic in libraries and for this reason: In most libraries after the book comes off the NEW RELEASES shelves it then gets shelved with fiction or non-fiction and I cannot help but wonder where this book will be shelved. Probably in True Crime? It is just like Angela's Ashes - that now resides in many libraries with Irish HIstory - or In Cold Blood....So when people then go into browse the book gets lost. I think it falls in the category of Literary Non Fiction much like many memoirs and In Cold Blood comes to mind. But for now I can tell you there is a waiting list at my little library for Columbine.

But onto the book itself. Brilliant. It will stay with me as part of my living experience- which I think is what Literature is supposed to do. For a first book (it reads like a novel) it is amazing - it is the voice that you adopted that I most admire. If I had my copy I would add examples. But you are absent as the narrator (not central and not a character) and yet a voice emerges that I find consistent- informed and empathetic. Did you consider other voices such as using a reporters voice or one of the victims? Have you considered writing fiction next?

Other people have commented on this but I wonder how you were able to live with this for all these years? Did you ever think - No I do not want to live with this?

I think you handled not just the story of a tragedy but the big things: The way past impasse in every life you studied, grief and if there is any consolation and Hope. I think it is the writer's task to take help take us as readers past impasse - bravo.

And a publishing question - who found who? Did your publisher ask for the book? Did you find them after you decided to write a book?

Martha

[Ryan]

I went to my fiance's 10 year HS reunion last night. They had the video yearbook playing on loop on all the tvs. I couldn't help but think what the Columbine class of 1999 will be going through at their 10 year reunion. I'm sure there will be times of joy in rememberance like any HS does, but the tragedy will play such a difference to them. Just a thought. Great book, Dave.

[Dave]

Thanks, Ryan. I've been thinking about them, too.

I owe you guys several answers, and I'll be back tomorrow with more.

[Kathy]

Dave,
I was one of those that did not buy your book but read in by borrowing it from a friend... In fact it traveled through about six of us at work..( a small liberal arts college library no less.. our copy was immediately taken by the director to read) I had just read the updates about the school administrators in American School Board Journal so I was fascinated by your portrayal of the principal. ASBJ also highlighted his dedication to his students and community still. I borrowed it from one of my students who is a communications major. She did one of her final projects highlighting your road to discovery.
I think it is unfortunate to have to say that even 10 years later and after schools and school boards across the nation have tried to make their schools safer, if a troubled student or person is intent on killing or maiming others it is very difficult to stop them. Because so much of the bizarre behavior or clues are not all together in one place it is not until after the fact when you sit down and look at everything that it comes to light how troubled they were. Similar to same problem of terrorists plots.. Various agencies do not readily share the information with each other in order to get the big picture. So here is my questions now that I have rambled--- Do you think communication between agencies is any better now?

[Dave]

I'm sorry about a few days away. I'll try to catch up today.

It also looks like it's easier on you guys if I repeat the question, so I'll go back to that format.

---

Shanna wrote: "I was surprised that it hadn't affected me very strongly when it happened, but was affecting me so strongly now, 10 years later. ..."

I've seen a lot of that. It seems like a lot of things, we deal with them when we're ready. Sometimes my mind isn't prepared to deal yet, or I'm just not that interested. But later, new experiences force me to reckon with it.

[Dave]

Denise wrote: "are you surprised that Dylan and Eric did not hurt/kill more people? ..."

Very. Eventually, I started hearing that even the victims' families. The plan was to kill hundreds, but they really blew it with the bombs, thank God. Then, they were apparently flummoxed. The could have just advanced on the building and opened fire, but they didn't. We can't be sure why, though with a more aggressive partner, I think Eric probably would have. The physical evidence is that Dylan was slow to get involved.

Second, would you say that Dylan and Eric were academically gifted? ..."

Yes. Dylan was in the gifted program (CHIPS) in grade school, and both were A students when they tried, but they often didn't make the effort.

what advice can you give parents and teachers who may be thinking that they know a potentially dangerous child? ..."

You can read the FBI report, which gives you very thorough criteria to evaluate in risk assessment. I have it linked on this page of my Columbine Guide, under #1:

http://davecullen.com/columbine/colum...

It's complicated, though, and I agree with the FBI that every parent and teacher is never going to get fluent in this. I agree with their rec that every school should get one person trained (beyond reading the report), who others in the school can turn to for help. Do you have someone like that designated in your school? Ask. You might.

[Dave]

Hi Martha. I'm glad to see people are finding it on the TWELVE site. Thanks for recommending it to your reading group--and for starting that program. We need more people encouraging reading.

Martha wrote: "Did you consider other voices such as using a reporters voice or one of the victims? Have you considered writing fiction next?..."


I tried out several voices before I got it right. I restarted it from scratch about five times. Maybe "tone" would be a better word than "voice." They were all my voice, but the tone and pace were very different. I'm not sure how to differentiate them.

I did not seriously consider using the victims' voices. I'm not sure what a reporter's voice is. If you mean like AP wire copy, blech! I hate that--I hate reading it--and don't even write news stories that way. One thing I loved about writing for Salon was that they encouraged me to write in my own voice, so I built on that.

Martha wrote: " how you were able to live with this for all these years? Did you ever think - No I do not want to live with this?..."

I think I should have said upthread that some of what got me through was finding joy in other places. I have a lot of good friends, and for the most part, made sure I kept an eye on keeping up those friendships. They really helped me. And I kept going to the gym, mostly, getting outside on my bike, and going dancing, which I love. You have to find joy other places. And writing also gives me great joy.

Yes, in the early years, I thought about stopping several times, and thought I had stopped. But in April 2004, I recommitted to doing the book, and never looked back since then.

Martha wrote: "And a publishing question - who found who? Did your publisher ask for the book? Did you find them after you decided to write a book?..."

Kind of both. I have a chronology upthread.

[Ali]

Hi, Dave!

I just finished the book (loved it!) and I am curious about Harriet. Why is she the only person with a pseudonym? Does she know Dylan wrote about her in his journal? Did she have an awareness of him prior to the attack?

Thanks!
Ali

[Dave]

Thanks for all that, Kathy. It's great to hear Frank's work was highlighted in the ASBJ. And thanks very much for passing the copy of the book around so much. The more people who read it, the happier I am.

(I heard JK Rowling tell a story once about a kid who approached her at a signing with an incredibly beat-up copy of the book. He was embarrassed about it, but she was thrilled. This book has been READ! She said. And read and read and read. That's the best compliment you can pay an author. I could not agree more.

I think you're right that we can stop a lot of shooters--especially the more than 80% who TELL us they're going to do it--but we can never stop them all. No one can predict human behavior. People will always surprise us, some in terrible ways.

Kathy wrote: "Do you think communication between agencies is any better now? "

My sense is that yes, there has been a lot of improvement in a lot of cities and towns--they were shocked into the need--but each locality is different
That's mostly anecdotal information, though. I have not studied that, so I can't give you a solid answer.

[Dave]

Ali wrote: "Hi, Dave!

I just finished the book (loved it!) and I am curious about Harriet. Why is she the only person with a pseudonym? Does she know Dylan wrote about her in his journal? Did she have an awar..."

Thanks, Ali. At first, I had to do something with Harriet, because the cops blacked her name out. I was pretty sure I could get the name, and initially I planned to, but as I worked on the book, I had time to think about that. She was an innocent bystander, who would probably be very embarrassed about it.

She was different than the victims--who all had a story to tell of their own recovery; and from the friends of the killers--who for whatever reason, had a relationship with the two boys. Also, and critically, all those other people were out in the open from Day 1, and widely reported about. Harriet was known only to Dylan, so I saw no reason to expose her. If one person had maintained her privacy, I thought it best to leave her with it.

I did not talk to the cops specifically about her, but I know that in most or all cases, they disclosed to the people involved what the killers said/wrote about them, so they (the cops) could question the witness about it. So I expect she knows now, but she knew nothing before.

[Kittyhawk]

I want to derail the conversation for only a minute. I have a question for Martha and other GoodReaders instead of the author.

I've had the strange experience of recommending Columbine to many friends, including my Book Club, and getting NO response. They refuse to read it. Have any of you all had that experience? Is it just that people are supposed to be reading frivolous beach books at this time of year? Do you think they fear what they might encounter in it? I'm really baffled as to how to convince my friends that they're missing out on a remarkably good and important book.

I'd be interested in your take on this situation.

[Natasha]

I'm currently reading the book right now and am absolutely immersed in it. I can't offer any conclusions as yet but as an occasional freelance journalist myself I really appreciate the meticulous details and debunking all those dangerous myths that the media often propagates. For some reason I've always been really interested in Columbine, almost morbidly, however I really like that your book doesn't sensationalize the crime.

So really I don't have any questions to ask but just thought I would comment anyway. Also, I was reading the book outside the British Museum today and was approached by a TV crew to talk about and recommend it for their book club. It may have been ITN or the BBC, but hopefully that will get more people reading it!

And in response to Kittyhawk, I have gotten that response from a few family members I recommended it too, but it was because they both only liked books with "happy endings".

[[deleted user]]

I agree with Natasha, sometimes people just don't like to read anything that wil make them think. Its a shame too because they might actually learn something about the topic in the book. I think that reading a nonfiction book of history makes us more knowledgable in the future. I do like books with happy endings but how would I even continue to learn anything if it were not for authurs like Dave Cullen. Maybe that is the way you should approach the subject with your reading club. HAppily ever after is great but we also need to remember to learn about the real world. Hope that helps you Kittyhawk and I love the handle you chose as well.

Jennifer

[Kate]

Kittyhawk,
One of my coworkers and Goodreads friends said she really enjoyed my review of Columbine and part of her wanted to read it, but the other part was afraid. I think it might be too heavy a subject for some people. My friends also have very different reading interests than I do, so even though I've told many of them about the book, I doubt many will pick it up. One of my friends, for example, is a teacher, and it might hit too close to home.

- and yes, they might be looking for a lighter read this time of year :)

[Tom]

Dave,

I think "Columbine" will stand as a definitive document for future readers who will want to understand this unthinkable incident.

(One reason I was excited to learn of your book, besides its compelling subject matter, is that I have been a fan of your BBM site.)

I was worried, early in reading the book, that more time would be devoted to recreating the inner lives of the two perpetrators than to understanding and paying tribute to the victims and survivors. By the time I finished, I was completely won over by your technique. It's a page-turner, a thoroughly researched and emotional work.

I still can't help feeling little stabs of regret that Eric's wish, that he would be remembered and that the incident was staged for an "audience", way has come to pass. Was this ever a dilemma for you?

SPOILER:
Of all the many incidents described and dramatized, the one that really startled me was the death of Ann Marie's mother. It represented, in a gut-punch, the overwhelming sadness and loss that everyone there faced.

Nice work. Thank you!

[Kittyhawk]

I have a feeling that IF we could get book clubs to read Columbine, the discussions would be tremendous - deeper, more wide-ranging, more important. Sometimes at our book club meetings, the discussion consists of "Hey, I liked the book." "Yes, it was good." "How are your kids?" I'd like to get away from that.

Katie, Natasha, and Jennifer, thanks for letting me know that my friends' reactions aren't an anomaly.

[Dave]

Natasha wrote: "I'm currently reading the book right now and am absolutely immersed in it. I can't offer any conclusions as yet but as an occasional freelance journalist myself I really appreciate the meticulous d..."

Thanks. I'm glad you noticed. Hahaha. Watching every detail can REALLY slow down the writing process.

Did I forget to respond to someone asking if I write fiction? I do, and have just gotten back to a bit of it this month. (Little time, but I'm doing a little.) It is so much easier to let those sentences flow. Of course it has other challenges, but it's liberating.

Wow, I'm going to have to station people wherever BBC or ITN might be. I love that.

[Dave]

Tom wrote: "Dave,

I still can't help feeling little stabs of regret that Eric's wish, that he would be remembered and that the event was for the "audience", in a way, has come to pass. Was this ever a dilemma for you?..."

Oh yes. That was the biggest ethical struggle I had. In the end, I decided that 1) the book had to be written: the story had been botched and had to be straightened out; and regardless, this was an important subject and there had never been a comprehensive book, and 2) Columbine and Eric were already famous.

That made it an easy call, to plunge ahead. It's not like I was going to turn Columbine into a household word. That ship sailed ten years ago.

It gnaws at me, still. The comfort I have is that the real Eric comes off pretty badly, and he also seemed to died a failure in his own estimation, and died pathetically. It doesn't end well for him.

My main ethical dilemma was how he looked for copycatters, and my first responsibility was to tell the truth, but luckily, the truth was pretty grim for him.

[Dave]

FYI, I just got word that Oprah's BFF Gayle King is going to appear on Good Morning America tomorrow, (Thursday), to discuss her own Summer Reads, including COLUMBINE.

GMA will post a chapter from the book on its website right following the show.

I'm setting my tivo now. I have no idea what she'll say.
(I've found people think I know about this kind of stuff weeks in advance. Sometimes I do--mostly if I've worked with a publication/show helping them prepare it. More often it's like this case: I opened my inbox this morning, and there was an email from my publicist letting me know for the first time. Often I find out about this stuff the same day it happens.)

[Dave]

I don't normally cite reviews in this kind of forum, but someone mentioned the book reminding them of Black Hawk Down, right?

I also just learned (in the same email from my publicist--who did a little recap of recent activity) that BHD author Mark Bowden reviewed COLUMBINE in the Philadelphia Inquirer this weekend.

I have not read the review yet, but my publicist plucked out this line (meaning it's the best line for me, of course): “remarkably detailed . . . it feels like the definitive story, and it disproves most of the prevailing wisdom.”

That makes me really happy. Hopefully the rest of the review doesn't trash me. Hahaha.

[[deleted user]]

Dave,
You are very humbling. I notice that you are happy to be getting the praise but you are not expecting it. Obviously this work was somewhat lead by a higher power (to not sound to religious) and you continued with it because of the strength of wanting people to know what really happened. My copy just arrived today and I am very anxious to gt started. Like I said upthread we need non-fictional accounts of things so that we can learn from what has happened. 1st it makes us more knowledgeable, 2nd we have an obligation to make sure nothing like this ever happens again. Ok I am down off my sopa box now.

Thanks for adding this compelling account for us to take part in. I find when reading a book that I am right there when everything is happening. I am in the room. I discovered this while reading "The Diary of Anne Frank" as a child and I feel it with every book I pick to read whether fiction of non I am part of the book for as long as I am reading it.

Jennifer

[Martha]

Dear Kittyhawk all Goodreaders and Dave - of course,

I heard the same thing from a dear friend that she simply could not read this book and it was because she cannot read anything that is about "children being hurt." That is a fair comment.

With that in mind the way I have approached other friends who I think would ultimately be thankful that they had read this book, is to simply begin to discuss it. In my opinion readers in Reading Groups should be discouraged from ever saying they loved or hated a book. It really does not matter. The questions I open with in a group are: "What did this book leave with you? What did it give you to weigh and consider? What did you admire about the writing? What did not work for you?"

Columbine leaves us so much to lament- so much to consider and even many things to celebrate. Even for my friend who cannot read about children being hurt - I might be inclined to say to her that still those children WERE hurt - it happened and that in reading such a book we might all better understand this human race of ours. Also I think that coming to an "understanding" of any big event in our lives - even in our public lives - is a way of coming to terms with it. And this sounds a little bit new age or whatever but sometimes I think understanding is a prerequisite to forgiving. In reading this book I felt more forgiving of the parents of Eric and Dylan than I had before. Anyway, all of these things I would love to hear discussed in a reading group.

Well, I am not a reviewer but this book reminded me of In Cold Blood and so I reread that book - looking mostly at style and approach and as you said, Dave, tone. Both Dave Cullen and Truman Capote are storytellers. Both books are what I would call Literary Nonfiction or maybe a better term is Narrative Nonfiction. An agent I admire who represents this genre said it is "the telling of an actual event in a compelling, dramatic, and character-driven narrative, using scenes, and literary devices to bring he subject alive in much the way fiction does, although it is not fiction." I think that fits Columbine. I think it was brave to do tell the story in this manner.

This book gives us character markers- it has driven me to shake my head in utter despair that these two young men could have been so utterly unable to love this world. But then I think of the other kids- and the principal - and that neighbor and mother who fought so hard to make someone understand what Eric was capable of. I think this book could have been dedicated to that woman.

Finally - I will quote my favorite favorite favorite writer - who wrote mostly fiction- Wallace Stegner. He said, "A work of art is not a gem - it is a lens." This book is a lens on life----

Again, thanks for the forum. I'm enjoying all the entries.
Martha

[Dave]

I will keep answering, but I also have some questions I hope you'll help me by answering.

It's important for me to know how people are experiencing the book (and how they might respond on my future books). These are some of the things I wondered about as I wrote and rewrote:

1. What expectations did you have when you picked up the book? Did it turn out to be what you expected? If not, how so?

2. Which characters made the biggest impression on you? Who did you find yourself wanting to return to?

3. Were there any characters who pushed you away (meaning when the scene shifted to them, you kind of wished we weren't going back to that storyline)?

Thanks.

[[deleted user]]

Dave wrote:
1. What expectations did you have when you picked up the book? Did it turn out to be what you expected? If not, how so?

I did not really have much of an expectation except to better understand what happened and why. There was too much going on in the media as usual and we have seen with the Iraq war that some of the reporting is inacurate so I felt that I would get a better understanding.

2. Which characters made the biggest impression on you? Who did you find yourself wanting to return to?

I find that Mr D and Agent Fuselier are the characters that I am relating best with. For one the emotion and respect that they are giving to the kids and faculty also to the deceased as well. I can not get over the fact that the bodies were just left there with nothing to cover them while the sawt teams were looking for other explosives. That is disrepect of humanity in its highest form.

3. Were there any characters who pushed you away (meaning when the scene shifted to them, you kind of wished we weren't going back to that storyline)?

I have to say that I do not like the way the religious leaders are conducting themselves through this, but I do not have a problem with them in the storyline itself. I know that with the large faith base there in Jeffco that it is important to see what was going on but I felt like they were forcing their beliefs on these people at a time when that was not the most important thing to reach for, Like the one Youth leader said "they need each other and hugs and love." "it is not the approprate time for an altar call."

Thanks
Jennifer

[Marti]

Even though I was aware of the 10 year anniversary and saw the Colubine community create so well their day of remembrance - I had yet to think about this class's high school reunion. Ryan, I believe, thoughtfully reminded us of that when he recently went to his fiancee's H.S. reunion. Thank you, Ryan.

Also, I agree with several of you that after reading your book, Dave, I gained a lot more compassion for both sets of parents.
Marti @ Denver's Tattered Cover

[Joanne]

Your book is still haunting me even though I finished reading it several weeks ago. My oldest son was in high school in 1999, so the shooting was very real to me. I reluctantly returned the book to the library today as there are many more people on the waiting list in this small county. My 16 year old son also eagerly read the book, and we had several interesting discussions on it.

I have some comments about the carpenter who made the crosses. He comes across very negatively in your book, especially in the footnotes. In 1999 I lived in suburban Chicago, one suburb over from where the carpenter lived. I first became aware of him when he made crosses for 4 teenage girls who were killed by a drunk driver, around 1997. At that time, the newspaper said he often made crosses for accident vicitms. Although I was aware of the controversy his crosses caused in Colorado, I never thought of him as a publicity hound & did not see him in the news very much. He came across to me as a eccentric character with a strange hobby. I find it interesting how differently he is viewed in Jeffco.

[Hilary]

Hi Dave,

Thanks so much for doing this Q&A! I also heard about the book through the BBM forum first.

I had read a bunch of reviews so the book pretty much matched my expectations. I love your clear-but-not-dry writing.

The characters I was most drawn to were Mr. D. and Patrick Ireland. I least enjoyed coming back to Brian Rohrbough and Wayne Harris, but I didn't feel that those scenes were too long--it was all useful information for understanding them.

I have a question I don't remember being addressed: did you get to provide any feedback on the jacket design? It's very striking and suits the mood of the book perfectly.

Sidenote: I'm a librarian and ordered four copies for my system. Although we do have to weed (we've needed a new building for years but the money isn't there, so for every book we add we need to withdraw one), I can tell you that your book is likely to stick around. We do go by last-borrowed date, but at most libraries there's a review process, and a definitive book on a topic will often be spared even if it doesn't circulate (especially if it has a good index and bibliography, as yours does).

Congratulations on what's sure to be an enduring classic!

Hilary

[Natasha]

1. What expectations did you have when you picked up the book? Did it turn out to be what you expected? If not, how so?

I expected it to be sad, and having read a lot about the killers before I expected the book to reiterate a lot of what I had read. The former held true, but the latter not so much. There was a lot more analysis of the killers' psychological states than I thought, which I appreciated. I wasn't expecting the way you structured the book, but I really think having those intersecting timelines was helpful in understanding everything better.

2. Which characters made the biggest impression on you? Who did you find yourself wanting to return to?

The characters that made the biggest impression on me were, of course, the killers, as well as Mr. D, Agent Fuselier and Patrick Ireland. I really liked coming back to Patrick. Ultimately he brought some much needed lightness to the story, and I imagine that's why you included him in your dedication.

3. Were there any characters who pushed you away (meaning when the scene shifted to them, you kind of wished we weren't going back to that storyline)?

Not particularly; I felt like everyone's story deserved to be told. That said, I was often unhappy with Brian Rorhbough's actions after the massacre, and like other people have said, the religious leaders who capitalized on the community's collective grief. Generally, I felt uncomfortable with the response of the Evangelicals, especially marketing Cassie's death the way they did.

[Dave]

Joanne wrote: "My 16 year old son also eagerly read the book, and we had several interesting discussions on it. ..."

I'm really glad you and your son had a chance to talk about it. (Anything that gets a mother and son talking is a good thing.)

On the carpenter--as with everyone--it's all about perspective. I did quite a bit of digging into his past, and he has left quite a string of angry people, and frankly, there's a lot of bad behavior, which I did not go into in the book.

[Dave]

Hilary wrote: "did you get to provide any feedback on the jacket design? It's very striking and suits the mood of the book perfectly...."

Thanks, Hilary.

I'm glad you asked about the jacket, which I can also say I love, because I had nothing to do with creating it. I gave very basic input in the beginning, that I wanted something tasteful and literary and preferably quiet--nothing with a tabloid feel.

Then they went away for a few months, and showed me a near-complete mockup of the cover, which was stunning, so I approved. (And they asked if it was OK to go ahead without my name on the cover, because they felt it was more striking that way. I agreed, and said yes.)

It was designed by Henry Sene Yee, who has done a lot of great covers, and he created a blog entry describing his process and posting lots of other possibles he mocked up. It's fascinating in its own right, and has gotten a lot of attention. You can see it here:

http://henryseneyee.blogspot.com/2009...

[Dave]

Thanks much for all the responses to my questions.

Keep them coming.

(And please remind me if I missed some questions.)

[Dave]

Hilary wrote: "Congratulations on what's sure to be an enduring classic!"

How did I ignore this line? You are really sweet to say that. Thanks.

[Natasha]

Interestingly, the British cover jacket is slightly different. The title is slightly larger and instead of white it's crimson...I wonder if that was on purpose?

[Dave]

Funny you say that, Natasha. I actually left one detail out of my story above, because I didn't want to sound like I was dissing the UK cover. But I also gave my US publisher, Twelve, one request on color: anything but red.

But the UK publisher didn't ask my approval, and I didn't know they were going to tweak the cover. It was already printed when I saw it, and I gasped. But then I realized it was OK. I think it actually works that way, and to me, doesn't suggest blood.

(BTW, in UK it's in paperback, because nearly all books are there now. I talked to the publisher when I went to London to promote it for them, and he said that they were not going with the embossed cover, and Columbine was well known there, but not AS much a household word, and it was released after the anniversary and therefore after the media attention. Based on all that, they felt they needed a cover with the title more visible. That sounded reasonable to me.)

I guess my original fears were about all the tasteless possibilities, and blood red, huge screaming type (ransom note type?) pix of the killers' etc. . . yuck. I wanted to stay as far from all that as possible. But with the really quiet, serene cover--and with that particular color palette--the red works just fine, for me. Context is everything.

I'd be curious what others think. The UK version is here:

http://www.goodreads.com/book/photo/6...

[[deleted user]]

Dave,
I do like the American version better but I have to say after reading the book I am finding that the presents of the school is serene but makes a statement at the same time.

I am glad that the judge awarded something the Dave Sanders family but I understand why his wife was not interested in getting in to all of that. To her, she lost the other half of herself when her husband died and you express that very well. The tone of this book is like nothing I have ever read. I am very impressed. Also I have to thank you for going into detail with the mental illness and psyopath information and PTSD because it does help people understand a little more of their ownselves and the traumas that they have gone through.

I look forward to reading more of your work in the future.

Jennifer

[Chad]

Just stayed up all night to finish this book. I wanted to read it and understand the history, but I was a little concerned that it would be sordid and sensational. After finishing it, I am left with a better feeling than I expected. Yes, it is intense and sad and depressing, but it is also hopeful. It also helps me understand the truth. I appreciate the incredible amount of research and the different stories, not all of which have a tragic ending.

[Jake]

In an earlier post, you asked for people’s emotional experience reading the book.

For me, Columbine's most gripping passages were not those retelling the shootings. Rather, my most emotional responses came in response to background and explication. I appreciated your choice to go without pictures. But I didn’t feel the book spared me any shock or grief in doing so. The eeriest image for me has no photo: Eric’s moonlit dream (p. 135). I’m not sure why, but that dream was the most evocative paragraph in the book for me.

Over the course of my reading, I felt regular doses of anger, sadness, empathy, and pessimism. Some things cooled my emotions though. For instance, it helped to read about police procedures, especially related to containment and “practical choices” SWAT had to make (p.143). Other passages produced strong but valuable responses. Cassie’s back-story floored me. But as you fleshed out her portrait, she became more compelling and endearing than the rapturous persona ladled up by media and churches.

Sheriff Stone pissed me off. I even cussed and name-called him in my margin notes. I suppose there is a guy there worth understanding, but I didn’t come away with any positive feelings for him. Another passage that drew my ire was Reverend McPherson’s willful defiance of empirical evidence (p.287).

On the bottom of page 301 I jotted, “Way to go Patrick!” I also laughed with assent when I read of students and teachers wearing “Bite Me” shirts (p. 271). Elsewhere I was humbled by Ann Marie’s pragmatic thoughts on forgiveness (p. 338-9).

I felt oddly calm as the killers reentered the library at the very end. Perhaps knowing the worst was over allowed me to relax. Maybe I was numb. Regardless, I felt more tension reading Brian Rohrbough’s wrangling over the memorial than I did beholding Eric and Dylan’s suicide four pages prior. That seems strange to me in hindsight, but it is where I was personally by the final pages.

Bottom line: thank you for a book that is thorough and balanced throughout.

[Dave]

Jennifer wrote: "The tone of this book is like nothing I have ever read. I am very impressed. Also I have to thank you for going into detail with the mental illness and psyopath information and PTSD ..."

Jennifer, that was really nice about the tone. Thanks.

And thanks, Chad, too. I'm glad you finished it.

I don't think I've posted this yet, but I wrote an essay for Borders about my two bouts with PTSD over the course of covering the story and writing the book. It's here:

http://www.borders.com/online/store/A...

I have also had questions about what to read further on psychopathy, and I highly recommend starting with Dr. Robert Hare's WITHOUT CONSCIENCE.

It's the classic, and it was written for a general audience, not for scholars. He did a great job with it, and it's an easy read, but packed with info.

[Dave]

Jake wrote: "The eeriest image for me has no photo: Eric’s moonlit dream (p. 135)...."

I'm glad you said that, because that has not come up so much in the discussions I've had with readers for some reason, but those passages really floored me when I first read them. It took me awhile to make sense of a guy who fantasied about bleakness.

Thanks for sharing those other passages, sentiments, too. I concur on just about all of them. And one more time, thank God for Patrick, and for Anne Marie.

[Martha]

Dave wrote: "I will keep answering, but I also have some questions I hope you'll help me by answering.

It's important for me to know how people are experiencing the book (and how they might respond on my futu..."

Hi Dave,

I have been wanting to respond to your 3 questions- and wish I had my copy of the book handy for a more precise response. As to my expectations- I was looking not for the Where, When, How or Who but the WHY. I had no idea if I would get that but I think something I read on the publishers website must have caught my attention. I did not know what to expect. But the experience of reading the book was - well it was as if I had done the research and made the "discoveries" as to why myself....

The characters who made the biggest impression on me were first the two boys. I was drawn to the mothers though.

I was not all that interested in some of the back stories of the students who were shot but that is not because they were not interesting people (and of course I am heartsick for them) but rather because I was interested only in the why. Those who were shot - as you so expertly convinced me - had nothing to do with the why. But I think you were right to include all these stories because in some ways this book is also a lament for the dead and injured.

But what I admire most in this book is that by the time you began to discuss the mental disorder - you had already described a psychopath- I already saw Eric as a predator. I had read an article last fall on psychopaths - and found it fascinating. I then read Snakes in Suits and Without Conscience and so when I began reading this book I recognized Eric as a psychopath and I grieved over what I thought I was recognizing. I wanted to warn Dylan that he was being conscripted. And what I think you did so well, Dave, is that you did not first label Eric as someone with any sort of personality disorder but rather you displayed his character and his behavior.

I guess what I still ask is why more people did not recognize Eric's ruthlessness. One person I wanted to know more about was Eric's father. I keep wondering if he understood that his son lacked empathy. As a parent I have empathy for all the parents including Eric's parents.

I would think that if Eric's parents were able to read and CONSIDER this book and then enter into a dialogue with experts who are studying psychopaths that they would have a chance to give something back to those who lost so much. That could be just one more outcome of this important piece of literature.
Martha

[Dave]

Martha wrote: "it was as if I had done the research and made the "discoveries" as to why myself......."

You have no idea how happy that makes me to hear. That's one of the things I tried to do: make the killers' story unfold like a detective story (among other things), so it sort of falls into place one piece at a time. You have know idea how many times that "Psychopath" chapter moved around--or how far. It was the biggest bouncing ball of a chapter in the whole book. From the first day of the reconceived project (in 2004), I knew that chapter would be in there, but how soon, that was always a big question.

I also consciously worked on highlighting the core features of psychopathy--and naming them--in Eric, both before and after I presented the concept. When I got to revealing that, I wanted you to have enouch information so that you could see it, and think, "Yes, I've seen that." But I also wanted you to learn about psychopathy, and then see the characteristics again, so you could notice them yourself with me beating you over the head with it.

(Luckily, Eric made it easy. Most of what he wrote screamed out psychopath, once you know what to look for.)

That's kind of how I experienced the process of understanding Eric myself. I'd read massive amounts of stuff from him when I learned about psychopathy, and had that "Ohhhhhhhh! That fits" moment. And then for years, I kept reading more of Eric, and seeing how it fit. That was a very satisfying experience, and I wanted to recreate that for the reader.

[Dave]

Martha wrote: "Dave wrote: "I guess what I still ask is why more people did not recognize Eric's ruthlessness. One person I wanted to know more about was Eric's father. I keep wondering if he understood that his son lacked empathy...."

I think the main reason is that Eric was a really bright psychopath, and they are so damn good at fooling people. That's why Dr. Cleckley titled that first book, "The Mask of Sanity." Even more significant than the lack of empathy--the wickedness, or however you want to label it--is the ability to mask that wickedness. Ted Bundy seemed like the nicest guy. They had no idea he enjoyed killing people.

The thing about psychopaths is that they know what they lack, and know they need to fake the empathy. Read that apology letter Eric wrote to the owner of the van he broke into. (p. 661 from the 1,000 pages. You can download a pdf of the 1,000 pages here, but it's 34 MB, so it will take several minutes: http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/p... ) It is SO convincing. There are lots of examples of how well Eric could fake empathy, but that one is staggering. (Then read what he really felt about it, written in his journal at the same time.)

Then think about a person who could fake that ALL THE TIME. Their whole lives are a performance, just to get what they want. They fool everyone. Or most everyone.

Now whether he really fooled his mom and dad, that is THE question. He clearly fooled them some of the time, but did they also get that they were getting played a lot of the time? I don't know. Parents of psychopaths are typically very confused about what's going on with their kid. They hardly ever know what a psychopath is, or guess that that's what they're dealing with.

I'd love to ask them. I hope to some day. Or I hope someone else asks. I'm with you on hoping they can work with some experts to shed more light on this.

[Martha]

Dave & Goodreaders,

A few years ago I used a book by Lionel Dahmer in my thesis - he was the father of Jeffrey Dahmer. I used this quote in particular:
"As a scientist, I further wonder if this potential for great evil also resides deep in the blood that some of us fathers and mother pass on to our children at birth. If we are fortunate we pass our gifts, not only spiritual, intellectual, and physical gifts, but our gift for love and sympathy, our gift for enduring misfortune, for sustaining life, and for honoring it. But some of us are doomed to pass on a curse instead."

Dahmer, Lionel. A Father’s Story. New York: William Morrow and Company, 1994.

I was actually looking not at anything scientific at all but rather at the Imagery of Passing in Literature. His book was stunning and I saw it as literature. It was an attempt to make amends in some small way. Dave, you may have already found your way to that book but if not I think you would find it fascinating.

That is so interesting that you worked with the placement of the "psychopath" chapter and I had forgotten the letter Eric wrote to the owner of that car they broke into. To be used - to be made a fool of- by such a cold person would be something that other victims are probably never going to get over. I had not thought of that before.

Thanks again for this dialogue.

Martha

[Dave]

Wow, Martha, that quote is heartbreaking, and chilling. I have to say, I'm really impressed by people who are willing to come face to face with brutal truths like that. The fact is, that when we pass on traits like that, it's not our fault--and yet, still, we have passed it on.

When I thought I would be a dad, I felt pre-emptive guilt for passing on traits like dropping flyballs in right field. Seriously. It's rough being a kid with terrible depth perception (I've learned), and poor hand-to-eye coordination, who therefore stinks at nearly every sport. You get made fun of, mercilessly. I did. I figured I'd raise sons who would face the same pain, because of what I'd passed on. Not my fault, but . . .

But that's nothing, compared to this.

I will look for that book.

I did have the great luck of reading "And I Don't Want to Live This Life: A Mother's Story of Her Daughter's Murder" about 15 years ago.

http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Want-Live-...

It's by Deborah Spungen, the mother of Nancy, of "Sid and Nancy" fame. (Sid Viscous, from the Sex Pistols, who murdered his girlfriend Nancy, then OD'd. Horrible story.) I was a big punk rock fan, and kinda knew the terrible story, but had no idea that it was merely the last horrible chapter in a trainwreck of a life for Nancy. Her mom was so candid about what that life was like. The writing is not always expert, but it is such an honest account that I found it terribly moving. The title is from a quote from Nancy, early on, I think.

The parents had several kids, and the others were fine, and they had no idea why Nancy was such a mess, from the start. They beat themselves up terribly.

The book really stuck with me. When I pass it on the shelf looking for something else, I will sometimes pull it out now and reread the dedication. I tear up every time.

That worked its way into me for a long time, and I think provided a reservoir of empathy for the killers' parents all those years later.

I felt a responsibility to be tough on the parents when and if I found anything on them, too, by the way. And I think I did point out a few situations that can give you pause. My goal was not to pass judgment on them and give them a passing grade. It was just to do what I tried to do with all the characters: consider what they had to work with at the time, and present that. But have some feeling for them, too, just like everyone else.