UK Amazon Kindle Forum discussion
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Has amazon devalued the written word?
Nope.People have always had peculiar or illogical approaches with their process of buying books.
But did we know how many words were in a book and I for one chose books on the basis of the fly leaf and the picture on the front.
I know what you mean, but I think ebooks have helped short stories, and some in my opinion are too short for the price
i have always been able to buy 3 decent mainstream books for a quid at my local cat charity shop. would you also say that charity shops (and book exchanges and the like) devalue the written word...?for those of us that, in the days before kindle, always borrowed from libraries and bought from charity shops, paying more than a quid or 2 for a book can sometimes be a tough decision to make!
it is difficult to judge as you don't always know the purchasers financial or personal situation behind their decisions...
I don't know how many words are in the books I read, and don't care. I consider each book I read carefully before I buy it, and if I'm not sure I'm going to like it, I can read the sample.There used to be a shop on Princes Street that sold books by the pound. That was lb weight, not sterling...
I'm someone who tends to buy an awful lot of my books second hand.But at least with this the author has had a cut. But frankly now paperbacks are probably subsidising ebooks for publishers. After all, (before publisher's and author's cut) both ebook and paperback cost exactly the same for type setting, advertising, editing, front cover design, share of office costs etc. The only saving on the ebook is that you don't have storage and print and distribution costs. With print on demand storage isn't a problem any more and print and distribution are probably not ten percent of the total cost.I'm not sure a publishing house could survive solely on ebooks at current prices.
I used to go in to the cheap book shops and come out with piles of books. Now I am quite selective... Or am I? Perhaps I am missing all those impulse buys. It was those shops where you got three for ten quid that got me. I always found two I wanted and then gotta random third book that often turned out to be really good.
I've never counted words. I too am attracted by the cover. I buy based on whether I like what the book is about. However, I do find myself more often these days reading the previews. I've become more selective because of this.I also thing there are so many lesser priced books available that people just want more for their money. That includes pages.
Kath wrote: "i have always been able to buy 3 decent mainstream books for a quid at my local cat charity shop. would you also say that charity shops (and book exchanges and the like) devalue the written word......"I'm the same, pre kindle I rarely bought new books, and if I did, it ws because I had a voucher, so I've spent more in the two years I've had mykindle than the two years prior.
While we don't count words on a kindle, if you buy a book you can see how thick it is
To be fair, if you can tell from a sample that you're not going to want to read a book, it doesn't matter if it's 20p or £20, you're not going to buy it.Yes, the monetary value of books has dropped since Kindles came out and even more since Select, but music and films had already dropped in value. It was only a matter of time before it happened to books.
Jim wrote: "With print on demand storage isn't a problem any more and print and distribution are probably not ten percent of the total cost...."Paper and fuel have skyrocketed in price in recent years; printing and distribution of physical books account for more than 10% of the total cost. Also, don't forget that most retailers expect a 50% discount off the cover price, minimum.
I agree with Desley & Kath.Kath wrote: "for those of us that, in the days before kindle, always borrowed from libraries and bought from charity shops, paying more than a quid or 2 for a book can sometimes be a tough decision to make!"
Desley (Cat fosterer) wrote: "I'm the same, pre kindle I rarely bought new books, and if I did, it ws because I had a voucher, so I've spent more in the two years I've had mykindle than the two years prior.
While we don't count words on a kindle, if you buy a book you can see how thick it is "
I always borrowed from the library, going a couple of times a week to keep myself in reading material. I also bought books - I used to buy new, but as prices went up (and the nearby bookshop closed) I would look out for more second hand books. Over recent years my book buying had dwindled. Getting the kindle has meant that I have more books again. A lot are free now, but that does not mean I won't pay for books. When I have discovered an author that I like, any more books by that author get put onto my wishlist (it is a very long list) and I will buy as I am able to afford them. What I won't do is pay what I think is too much for the book - I don't think that 1.99 for a book that is 25 pages long is a reasonable price.
J.D. wrote: "Paper and fuel have skyrocketed in price in recent years; printing and distribution of physical books account for more than 10% of the total cost. Also, don't forget that most retailers expect a 50% discount off the cover price, minimum. ..."
Amazon's cut from a published ebook is a lot higher than that they take from indies so I didn't count that in.
I'm not in the trade so cannot quote figures, but I'm just mentioning the ones I've been told by people who are,but obviously I don't know how uptodate stuff is
One thing about wanting more words for your money and the difference between paper books and ebooks is that you wouldn't count the words in an actual physical book. Would you pay the same for a new book with 160 pages as for a new copy of Game of Thrones (around 840 pages)? Or would you want to spend less on the smaller book (or vice versa, more for the bigger one)? Looking at the word count is the way to see that for ebooks as many don't have a reliable page count.Now, if I'm buying real books, unless I'm looking for a present (and happen across a buy one get one free... wonder how that happens!) I will buy from charity shops and discount stores such as The Works.
I don't remember the last time I paid more than £2 for an ebook. Not because I wouldn't pay more, but because the ones I want are so cheap. Mind you, I'm probably buying fewer than three books a month now, including freebies.My unread pile is well over 3000 books now.
In truth, I shouldn't be buying any new books.
Has Amazon devalued the written word? I'd say no. The advent of ebooks and direct publishing has made many more books very easy to access. The market has exploded and consumers are dictating the prices they are willing to pay. Supply and demand, baby! Amazon has been hugely responsible for the volume of books available but the consumers are setting the prices.
The buy one get one free is (normally)the retailer giving you the publisher and distributors margin in the form of a free book. With major retailers it's the same way they finance most Bogofs. One thing to remember is that we're in an evolving situation. There are still writers who can make a living. By the look of things the number of writers has increased but the number who can make a living is falling, and in twenty years time things will probably look very different. You'll undoubtedly have those who just want to say they've written a book and these books will probably be free. I would imagine that the 'professionals' or those who need the money to pay the rent will be looking at a different model. For example I've earned more from a 'pamphlet' on the military history of the Parthians than I have from all my books put together.It's Specialist, written for a specialist market.
Similarly if I wasn't selling articles to magazines about animal health and similar I couldn't afford to write.
You'll probably find that the good writers will write as much, perhaps more, but a lot of it will be 'commercial' stuff which pays the bills. (I wonder if we'll have more 'freelance' journalists and similar as Newspapers undergo a similar evolution.Others might pad out their earnings as private tutors or literary personal trainers)
I suppose that if we go back a century a lot of writers wrote because they had private incomes and therefore writing was a way of filling their time, along with good works and generally supporting 'cultural' activities.
I think my hesitation over buying a book now is the little voice at the back of my head nagging me and reminding me that I still have thousands of unread books on my kindle. It's more that I don't want to spend any money on more books when I already have more than I could possibly read in a life time. It's nothing to do with the actual book itself or the price of it.
Jud (Disney Diva) wrote: "I think my hesitation over buying a book now is the little voice at the back of my head nagging me and reminding me that I still have thousands of unread books on my kindle. It's more that I don't..."This is a real issue. I have an 'unread pile' of real books which I now keep in a box and which glare at me when I enter a room and impose discipline. If they cost pence and were virtual then I don't think I'd have the discipline
My unread pile of DTB in slowly increasing just now as well...
I make a concerted effort to keep my to read pile as small as possible, but it is difficult when working in a library.
I try too but I just don't have enough time. Hubby is going back home with his parents on Wednesday so I'll get a whole week to sit and read uninterrupted :o) Can't wait.
Jim wrote: "Jud (Disney Diva) wrote: "I think my hesitation over buying a book now is the little voice at the back of my head nagging me and reminding me that I still have thousands of unread books on my kindl..."Yeah, most of mine aren't even on my kindle.
Jud (Disney Diva) wrote: "I think my hesitation over buying a book now is the little voice at the back of my head nagging me and reminding me that I still have thousands of unread books on my kindle. It's more that I don't..."Yes,that is a big factor - I've had to stop looking at freebies cos there are just too many. I have over 60 paperbacks to read as well.
J.D. wrote: "Paper and fuel have skyrocketed in price in recent years; printing and distribution of physical books account for more than 10% of the total cost. Also, don't forget that most retailers expect a 50% discount off the cover price, minimum..."Yes, I produce a couple of annual reference books with a total print run of 8,000. I think you'd be quite horrified to learn how much the distribution costs. The actual printing isn't so bad, though paper costs have increased drastically.
We have now entered an age where people are prepared to spend more on a greetings card than they are on a book. Is that Amazon's fault? I don't think so, really. For me the cause lies partly with the collapse of the net book agreement in the mid-90s, and the resultant introduction of cheap books to supermarkets as loss leaders.
What's the net book agreement?
And heck, WATER costs more than books these days.
Someone who knows the industry better than I can correct me if I'm wrong, but essentially the net books agreement was drawn up between the major publishers, book wholesalers and bookshops.The agreement was to the effect that retailers would only sell books at the cover price, with no discounting. That way there was a level playing field for independent bookshops and larger players like Waterstones, Dillons, Ottakars, Foyles, etc.
Basically publishers gave into advances from supermarkets, and saw an opportunity to shift tons of books. I forget who the first major publisher was to withdraw as I was only about 15 myself, but independents realised it meant their days were numbered.
Hmmm.Think I've heard of that before.
Perhaps in the zoo, many moons ago.
Andrew has pretty well described it. But the relative pricing of things, the relative value of things, is totally out of kilter. Is a book worth more or less than a cup of coffee?
But then I saw a statistic which pointed out that families in the UK spend more on their Sky subscriptions than they do on meat for the table. (Setting aside vegetarian v watching on line that cannot be healthy) I just looked, the cheapest 'bundle' on the sky website is £21.50 a month.
If you could deliver the experience of drinking tea and coffee via the internet, its value would decrease by 90%.
But buy the ingredients over the internet and it's a lot dearer :-(Funny old world innit :-)
I'll just point out, I'd never pay more for a card than a book, I'm a real scrooge and rarely pay more than £1.50 for a greetings card, unless it's a very special one. I've discovered you can get really lovely cards fairly cheaply at one of the shops. Sorry, just a digression!
When it can all be downloaded into your brain overnight whilst you sleep, the price will be even cheaper.
Darren wrote: "When it can all be downloaded into your brain overnight whilst you sleep, the price will be even cheaper."Eugh, where's the enjoyment in that?
Ah but you'd actually live the story as it was downloaded.
It's not Amazon choosing the price when it's a self-published author. You can query the author's logic but without Amazon chances are they wouldn't be published at all. I think it's illuminating when an author spends what at least six months of their life to write a novel and then prices it at 99p. I think they're seriously devaluing themselves as writers and artists.
Marc wrote: "I think it's illuminating when an author spends what at least six months of their life to write a novel and then prices it at 99p. I think they're seriously devaluing themselves as writers and artists."Although, as Stephen Leather once said (paraphrase), isn't it better to sell several thousand at 99p, then to sell a few hundred at £6.99, or whatever?
Artists - whether writers, musicians, sculptors or whatever, no matter how gifted we like to think we are are not owed a living and are all dependent on what customers are willing to pay - and for (relatively or otherwise) unknowns that is never going to be very much.
If you want to write for some sort of financial recompense - let alone make a living at it - you have to understand how economics and the market work [and how self-publishing has changed it - certainly in terms of entry conditions].
Marc wrote: "It's not Amazon choosing the price when it's a self-published author. You can query the author's logic but without Amazon chances are they wouldn't be published at all. I think it's illuminating ..."
There are books that I have liked the look of from the blurb, but they remain unbought because they are in the region of £8 and above.
It is the same as in our town centre - the "mall" is over half empty because the rents are too high - there was an upstairs full of shops, but it is now boarded up so visitors to the town don't know there are more empty shop units there. If the rents were halved and the shops were filled wouldn't that have generated more money? So I see it as that authors would rather make 10 sales at 99p than only one at £5.
Marc wrote: "It's not Amazon choosing the price when it's a self-published author. You can query the author's logic but without Amazon chances are they wouldn't be published at all. I think it's illuminating when an author spends what at least six months of their life to write a novel and then prices it at 99p. I think they're seriously devaluing themselves as writers and artists.
..."
To an extent the author's share of a 99p ebook might be more than their share of a £6 paperback.
However we have to look at the model. There's one American guy who has made a million dollars from his ebooks (I think he might have been charging $2) and keeps churning out thrillers. But he's lucky, he got in before the tidal wave of new writing.
I took the conscious decision to produce a book for £0.99, The Cartographer's Apprentice: Leave Them Wanting Morewhich was written as a prequel, as a series of linked short stories. They were all based on 'throw away lines' in the first Book I published.
The idea was that it provides an easy entry point for readers. It's 'competitively priced and should be 'worth a punt'
It's shorter than my books normally are, but it's still 40,000 words.
(I think two of the short stories are technically novellas)
So obviously I think that in the current world it makes sense under some circumstances for an author to produce the 'sub one pound' book.
Will I do more? Bad to say, we'll see how this one does :-)
David wrote: "Marc wrote: "I think it's illuminating when an author spends what at least six months of their life to write a novel and then prices it at 99p. I think they're seriously devaluing themselves as wri..."I'm fully aware that no one is owed a living. I was making the point that it wasn't Amazon who were skewing the market here, other than them putting bricks & mortar bookshops out of business perhaps.
I also get the model where for your first novels you price low to try and build up a loyal readership for the later books. But something like the freemium model of giveaways on Amazon has prompted interesting and highly rational customer behaviour of these free books being hoovered up by consumers and then remaining unread (or at least unrated and unreviewed)because they only need to read a paragraph, decide it's not for them and move on to the next title downloaded for free. Highly rational consumer behaviour as I say, but distorting of the author's economic model, books being 'sold' but not read.
I made the point about pricing 6 months work at 99p not as an economic point, but more my constant refrain of how any self-published author must ask themselves what it means to them to be a (published) writer. Are they hoping for fame, for money, validation from peers, validation from literary critics, how many readers are they looking to have per book, are they seeking to make great art, or just entertain with a good yarn and provide a good bit of escapism, etc etc. I find too many authors go into this without knowing what it is they want to achieve and why and this makes for unrealistic expectations.
Marc wrote: "I'm fully aware that no one is owed a living."(Thinking about it later I should have used 'we' rather than 'you' in my first comment - didn't mean anything personal.)
You are right, of course.
Assuming we want to make some money, if not earn a living with our writing, remember that it is not - unless we are very lucky, and it is a matter more of luck than anything else) we are not competing with Stephen King and J.K. Rowling out there. We are completing not only with every other ebook by an unknown, but also with Gutenberg and (as more people use ebook apps rather than dedicated readers like the Kindle) with games, YouTube, blogs Lolcats and everything else that is as cheap or free, as well as a poor economic climate. And - really - the only thing that does work to build sales is word of mouth and that takes time and - probably - cheap or free entry points for those few readers who are prepared to venture away from the familiar big brand names.
And we must remember - as someone said on a blog I read recently - it sometimes takes 20 years of grind to become an overnight sensation.
Funny, I don't see myself competing with anyone else at all.Those that read books as well as, or instead of, say gaming or going down the pub will buy the books they buy. By purchasing another self-pubbed author rather than me, I don't see it as a sale denied me. I'll sell whatever numbers of books I sell irrespective of what other authors are doing. I know what sort of reader my books might appeal to, but reaching them is a whole different question. And yes, in line with my earlier authorial self-inquiry, are we in this for the long haul or not?
Marc wrote: "Funny, I don't see myself competing with anyone else at all."But you are, we all are because - as you say there is a limited amount of money people will spend on books. The competition is a fact of the marketplace whether you see it as such or not. It doesn't mean we have to fight each other tooth and nail for every sale - it is just the way it is. The audience is limited and getting their attention is hard.
It is getting that attention of the audience that is where the real difficulty lies, that competition is, and is what I mean by the competition with other forms of entertainment. Which is as you say about reaching them.
The long haul is the only serious option, unless you are very lucky.
David wrote: "Marc wrote: "Funny, I don't see myself competing with anyone else at all."But you are, we all are because - as you say there is a limited amount of money people will spend on books. The competiti..."
all fair points, I think we just have slightly differing nuanced views around the same things. The audience is limited and getting their attention is hard, but that's because of the huge size of the market, our work gets lost from sight like most self-pubbed authors. I don't believe it's that price-driven, this impediment overrides any limited purchasing power of readers. I'm not saying there's no competition, of course there is, but just at my level (near or at the bottom) I don't think it's much of a factor behind my sales performance.
For self publish authors (without the "power & influence" of the publishing houses behind them) I can see why the books get lost in the jungle that is known as Amazon, but very often, I've found the books through word of mouth - be it forums like this, or blogs - and to my mind, they tend to be better written than ones that are prize winners (Hillary Mantel comes to mind!)
Word of mouth tends to be how I discover new authors. I also find new people to read through conventions and readings and book launches and things... the way I see it, anywhere there's free wine, I should probably buy a book or two at the end of the night by way of showing my appreciation.
Andrew wrote: "Word of mouth tends to be how I discover new authors. I also find new people to read through conventions and readings and book launches and things... the way I see it, anywhere there's free wine, I..."ha ha ha, I like your value system! :-)
Marc wrote: "but just at my level (near or at the bottom) I don't think it's much of a factor behind my sales performance. "Yours is probably higher than mine.
But anyway, now I'm more interested in the free wine.
UK Amazon Kindle Forum
Books mentioned in this topic
Wool Omnibus (other topics)Pyramids (other topics)
Something Nice - 10 Stories (other topics)
The Cartographer's Apprentice: Leave Them Wanting More (other topics)
We have also seen conversations about a book 'not having enough words' for the money.
It makes me wonder if amazon has done something bad to contemporary writing.