two book entries - same book

[John]

hello.

i recently discovered that there are 2 entries for one of my ebooks on goodreads...

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...
(has all the correct information)

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...
(this one can either be deleted or merged with the first one.)

these are actually the same book, and there is only one version. even the blurbs don't match, the ISBNs and AISN numbers are identical.

can some one merge these or delete the coverless version?

thanks for your time and support.

john

[Renske]

We list Kindle editions with their ASIN, so the second edition is a valid edition. Combined the editions.

[John]

thanks for the assist, but isn't really a unique "kindle edition'. "pandora driver: the origin" is the same as every other ebook version of the same title. i know because i made and uploaded them all directly to all the ebook stores it's listed on.

there is only one ISBN for the ebook, whether it's on itunes, smashwords, kobo, etc.

thanks for your time and support.

john

[Emy]

If we don't have a separate Kindle edition record, your readers will not be able to use an Amazon purchase link to buy your book.

When Amazon receives ebooks (with or without pre-existing ISBNs), they then assign their own ASIN to the copy...

[John]

maybe I'm not being clear, this book isn't new to amazon. it's been on sale amazon ever since I listed the book here on goodreads.

the amazon link that was under the original book has been working for the entire time.

the AISN number and the ISBN are assigned to the exact same book.

has a policy changed since amazon has taken over goodreads?

thanks for your time and support.

john

[rivka, Former Moderator]

The Amazon link will only work for the edition with the ASIN; most other book links will only work with the edition with the ISBN. Therefore we keep both.

This policy has been the same for many years, since long before Amazon bought Goodreads.

[John]

apparently the AISN number isn't attached to the first version, but it should be. it's the exact same book.

can someone just add the AISN number

B004XMRZ1S

to this record (the first entry)

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...

and delete the redundant/second/erroneous one. there aren't 2 editions. there have never been two editions. what goodreads is displaying is an error.

thanks for your time and support.

john

[Susie]

John,

I have done a Google search for your book. It appears that there is an ebook edition, which is here on Smashwords, here on Kobo and here on GR. But there is also the Kindle edition which you refer to, which is here on Amazon and here on GR.

Therefore this is one book with two separate editions, so both should stay.

Put it this way, someone may wish for a PDF or ePub version of your book if they do not have a Kindle. This would be the ebook edition listed above and available to purchase online.

Edit: As an extra note, perhaps for further clarification, an ASIN can only be used to purchase Kindle books and an ISBN for all other ebooks. Other books are listed in this manner, also.

[John]

"It appears that there is an ebook edition,"

there is only an ebook edition of "pandora driver: the origin" which is identified by it's ISBN number. all the stores you listed have the exact same book as the amazon/kindle version ISBN and all. the content is identical across the stores because the book is the same across the stores. i know because i personally uploaded them directly to all of those stores.

take a look at one of my other books on goodreads.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...

this ebook is available on smashwords, kobo, ibooks, and amazon. i published to them directly onto those stores too. the epulp showcase entry has the ISBN and AISN number listed under one single GR entry. (that's the way pandora driver: the origin should be too.)

as far as i can tell the 'online stores' pulldown under the single entry links successfully to the stores it's on for the epulp showcase.

i can find hundreds of other examples of 'one book across stories including amazon' presented like this on goodreads.

the pandora driver entry should match the epulp showcase presentation on GR. all the criteria is the same. there is no need for two entries.

if we follow the 'separate edition for each store numbers unique ID number/devices' argument. wouldn't that imply all ebooks on GR would need multiple entries to cover all the unique ebookstore products (even if the are all identified by the same ISBN), or at the very least one for each of the unique ereader devices? that can't be right. i can't find any examples to support that on good reads.

so to simplify this request.

can you please just add the AISN to the original pandora driver entry.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...

delete the erroneous/redundant pandora driver edition entry, so it matches the presentation of the epulp sample

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...

thanks for your time and support.

john

[rivka, Former Moderator]

John wrote: "if we follow the 'separate edition for each store numbers unique ID number/devices' argument. wouldn't that imply all ebooks on GR would need multiple entries to cover all the unique ebookstore products (even if the are all identified by the same ISBN), or at the very least one for each of the unique ereader devices?"

That is more or less correct. Often many stores will just use the standard ISBN, but for those that do not (Amazon, sometimes B&N, Kobo, etc.) we add an additional edition for each identifying ISBN/ASIN/etc.

It seems like you would prefer for the Kindle edition to be primary. As the author, you have that ability. Here's how: http://www.goodreads.com/help/show/31...

[John]

"That is more or less correct. Often many stores will just use the standard ISBN, but for those that do not (Amazon, sometimes B&N, Kobo, etc.) we add an additional edition for each identifying ISBN/ASIN/etc."

but you don't even follow this across goodreads.

"It seems like you would prefer for the Kindle edition to be primary"

that is not accurate. i don't know how much more clear i can be about the error.

thanks for your time and support.

john

[John]

this link

https://www.goodreads.com/work/editio...

has amazon listed as the publisher. this information is not accurate.
they are not the publisher. john picha is the publisher.

can you fix that mistake?

thanks for your time and support.

john

[Z-squared]

John wrote: the amazon link that was under the original book has been workin..."

FYI, that's not true. When I click Amazon on the ebook edition, I get the '404 - Document Not Found' error. When I am on the kindle edition and click Amazon, I go to the book's sale page. That's why we have editions for both as a policy.

John wrote: ...has amazon listed as the publisher. this information is not accurate.
they are not the publisher. john picha is the publisher...."

GR policy is that self-published kindle editions have the publisher listed as "Amazon Digital Services." See part 3 in this post from Rivka:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[John]

"FYI, that's not true. When I click Amazon on the ebook edition, I get the '404 - Document Not Found' error. When I am on the kindle edition and click Amazon, I go to the book's sale page."

ok, so it either worked in the past, or my memory was off. however, it is currently true for most of my other books, and many books listed here on goodreads. i'll give you an example in a moment.

--

"That's why we have editions for both as a policy."

but if you add the AISN to the original pandora driver: the origin listing it will work. that's been my point.

if you go to this book on GR...

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...

then go to the 'online store' pull down and select amazon. you will be taken to it's listing on amazon.
if you stay on the same GR page, go to the same pulldown but select ibookstore. you will be taken to it's listing on itunes. if you stay on the same GR page, go to the same pulldown but select kobo, you will be taken to it's listing on kobo. if you stay on the same GR page, go to the same pulldown but select smash words, you will be taken to it's listing on smashword.

if you think about it, it doesn't really make any sense to have a pulldown in the interface, to navigate to the same book on different stores, if each book/ereader designation should be a different edition as the GR team has suggested.

--

i think we are in the "buttle" vs "tuttle" error from brazil territory here.

if i would have just entered the AISN and ISBN in the same record for Pandora driver: the origin in the beginning, which the book entry form provides for. none of this would be happening right now. since pandora driver: the origin has been listed on goodreads for at least a year as one entry, so something has changed recently. i just don't know what it was.

i can actually see the page where it's possible to fix the problem i'm trying to address, i just don't have permission to change it. if you go here

https://www.goodreads.com/book/edit/1...

then click the "click for AISN" to toggle the numbers field, then save the form that would have correct the problem.
(it already has the right publisher)

once that is done the second edition/kindle edition isn't necessary.

--

"GR policy is that self-published kindle editions have the publisher listed as "Amazon Digital Services." "

then this GR policy propagates false information or is creating artificial designations. in fact, if you look at the amazon entry for pandora driver: the origin GR seems to be drawing the information from.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004...

it has john picha listed as the publisher.

thanks for your time and support.

john

[John]

a little more digging got me to this page.

https://www.goodreads.com/work/compar...

take note that there is a link next to the amazon entry that allows you to search by ISBN. i suspect this is why the link from pandora on goodreads to amazon worked in the past. the pulldown was probably an ISBN based search.

if there was never a way to search for a book on amazon via, ISBN, why would even be an option on here?

thanks for your time and support.

john

[John]

now that i suspect the GR pulldown is actually ISBN based i did a little more investigation.

i looked at my bowker account to see if i could track this disconnect on GR, figure out what is out of sync, and piece this inconstant puzzle together.

for pandora driver: the origin

john picha is listed as the publisher of record
the ISBN - 10 is 0-9834776-0-4
the ISBN - 13 is 978-0-9834776-0-0

on amazon the ISBN associated with pandora driver: the origin is

the ISBN - 13 9780983477600

on Goodreads both ISBNs are listed as

0983477604 (ISBN13: 9780983477600)

then when i go to this page

https://www.goodreads.com/work/compar...

and try to search amazon for the ISBN, the link doesn't work.

--

ok now let's trace another of my books and see what happens.

for the dieselpunk epulp showcase on bowker, the ISBNs are

the ISBN-10 is 0-9834776-3-9
the ISBN-13 is 978-0-9834776-3-1

on amazon the ISBN associated with the dieselpunk epulp showcase is the ISBN-13

9780983477631

on goodreads the ISBN is listed as

ISBN13 9780983477631

then when i go to this page

https://www.goodreads.com/work/compar...

the search amazon by ISBN works.

--

ok, so the problem with the amazon link on the original pandora driver: the origin entry on GR isn't the kindle edition issue. it looks like it's trying to search on amazon for the 10 digit ISBN number instead of the 13 digit ISBN. if you swap those i bet it will work.

thanks for your time and support.

john

[John]

apparently i'm allowed to make changes to the book data now.

so i made the ISBN modifications and i was right. it works now.

john

[Z-squared]

John wrote: "i can actually see the page where it's possible to fix the problem i'm trying to address, i just don't have permission to change it. if you go here

https://www.goodreads.com/book/edit/1...

then click the "click for AISN" to toggle the numbers field, then save the form that would have correct the problem.
(it already has the right publisher)

once that is done the second edition/kindle edition isn't necessary."

A-ha! Maybe we're finally getting to the nub of the issue here. The ASIN/ISBN toggle fields are mutually exclusive. You can't have an edition with both an ASIN and an ISBN. I'm sure there are many reasons why, but the most important one is probably to prevent non-ebook editions (e.g., a paperback) getting lumped together with kindle editions.

Bottom line is even if we could delete the kindle edition (which we can't), the resulting entry would only have an ISBN. Searching by that ISBN on Amazon results in an error message and doesn't allow users to find your book, which I think we can all agree is bad. Having an additional Kindle edition allows users to shelve the version they own AND find your book on Amazon. A win-win!

I can't add anything to the Publisher issue. I just know policy and am a lowly unpaid librarian. If you feel strongly, post your opinion in the Feedback Group.

[John]

"A-ha! Maybe we're finally getting to the nub of the issue here. The ASIN/ISBN toggle fields are mutually exclusive."

once i realized that the pulldown function is based on ISBN searches, i figured that out.

"Searching by that ISBN on Amazon results in an error message and doesn't allow users to find your book"

actually, that doesn't appear to be true. the pulldown seems to be an ISBN - 13 search. all that needed to be done was to remove the ISBN - 10. apparently it was obstructing the ISBN - 13 (or adding it to the search string). once i deleted the ISBN - 10 from my original listing, the amazon search works with the ISBN -13.

thanks for your time and support.

john

[John]

out of curiosity, i checked the GR pulldown for the second entry for pandora driver. links to other bookstores listed in it work. so the pulldown for the kindle edition can't be AISN based because that number would be meaningless to any other store.

thanks for your time and support.

john

[Fandury]

You have an Kindle version of your book and that book (as all Kindle books) have an ASIN bumber. When I want to look by this number for my book on Goodreads, there has to be an Kindle edition with this ASIN number in goodreads, otherwise I (as a reader) will not be able to find this book.

I really do not care for the Buy Me links, and if they work or not, I just want to find my books and add them to my library.

Most Kindle books on goodreads are not "special Kindle editions", but simply the same book as all other ebooks available, just with an ASIN number instead of a ISBN. But every reader has to have the choice to add the book he/she wants with the identification number his/her book has.

So that is the reason your book has a ebook entry and a Kindle entry regardless of working pulldown functions.

[Cait]

Link to the policy discussion in which it was decided to list Kindle editions by ASIN even if they have ISBNs:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[John]

Fandury

"When I want to look by this number for my book on Goodreads, there has to be an Kindle edition with this ASIN number in goodreads, otherwise I (as a reader) will not be able to find this book."

if you are talking about a "goodreads search". i just did a test and you are right, it will accept an AISN, ISBN or the title of a book. too me, it seems most likely that people would search for the title or even author rather than a long number like AISN or ISBN, since it's much easier to remember.

--

"I really do not care for the Buy Me links, and if they work or not, I just want to find my books and add them to my library."

well, i do care. i'd like the people who discover and are interested in one of my books, to go to their preferred ebookstore to download a preview or purchase a copy. to me, that's kind of the point of being listed on goodreads.

also, if you are a goodreads librarian, it surprises me that you don't care if the interface works.

--

when i was setting up my books on goodreads the first place, i was entering both the ISBNs and AISN numbers. i didn't realize it was an "either or" i assumed it was accepting both based on the feedback i was getting from the interface. now i know.

however, one book listing can get a reader to an amazon listing and other other ebookstores. the second listing is unnecessary/redundant for my case, but, apparently, it accommodates others.

i also know that if people were using ISBNs to identify their books, they would know that you can't have the same ISBN for a physical book and ebook so the kindle/amazon conflicted pointed out earlier would never have become an issue for GR.

i can also see that as more ebookstores break away from ISBN standardization, in favor of internal tracking numbers, the more problems will multiply.

speaking of interface feedback...

last night the pulldown was clearly searching for ISBNS (even on the kindle edition). i could confirm that since i could see the ISBN being passed in the link string. however, i just checked the "pandora driver: the origin" kindle edition entry, and the pulldown is behaving differently than it did last night. (maybe it took awhile to process a change). i can also see that it's dropped Ibooks from the list.

--

the more i play with the pulldowns the more unpredictable they become, sometimes it's an ISBN search sometimes its an AISN sometimes its a keyword search pulling words from the title. i suspect there must be some kind of prioritization. something like…

- if book has ISBN, then search for ISBN
- if book AISN, search for AISN (unless something?)
- if not (something?) search for keywords from title
- if none apply, guess?

--

ok so here are my next questions…

what is the trick to getting the pulldown links to work on lulu?
what is the trick to getting the pulldown links to work on omnilit?

thanks for your time and support.

john

[John]

Cait

ok, so what i get from this list, is things keep changing there is no certainty.

thanks for your time and support.

john

[Z-squared]

John wrote:"the more i play with the pulldowns the more unpredictable they become, sometimes it's an ISBN search sometimes its an AISN sometimes its a keyword search pulling words from the title. i suspect there must be some kind of prioritization. something like…

- if book has ISBN, then search for ISBN
- if book AISN, search for AISN (unless something?)
- if not (something?) search for keywords from title
- if none apply, guess?..."

You are right, I knew it went by ISBNs, but I forgot it did ISBN10 before ISBN13. I think it goes ISBN10 (or ASIN) -> ISBN13 -> title. And unfortunately, if any of those fields has an invalid entry, it does not continue to the next one. Thanks for pointing out that deleting the ISBN10 can make things work. I'll remember that trick. I wish whoever wrote the algorithm would prioritize ISBN13s over ISBN10s. It would take care of the B&N fake ISBN10 problem, too.

Speaking of which, would you like me to add the B&N edition to your listing? While deleting the ISBN10 allows the ebook to be found at Amazon, it doesn't work at B&N. I'm pretty anal about shelving only the kindle editions since I'm a kindle user. I imagine there are equally anal Nook users out there, not to mention some people who prefer shopping at B&N over Amazon anyway. I don't know how to fix lulu or omnilit, sorry :(

[Renske]

John wrote: "if you are talking about a "goodreads search". i just did a test and you are right, it will accept an AISN, ISBN or the title of a book. too me, it seems most likely that people would search for the title or even author rather than a long number like AISN or ISBN, since it's much easier to remember."

Searching by ISBN or ASIN is the fastest way find a certain edition. It is useful when a book has many editions or for a book with a very common title and/or author.

[John]

Z-squared

i see, for each step forward we take one back?

i'm not sure what you mean by fake ISBN 10.

out of curiosity, i did a quick test.

- went to the "edit data" for pandora driver
- i deleted the ISBN-13 9780983477600
- entered the ISBN-10 0983477604
- saved
- then tried the B&N link from the "green store links bar"

it didn't appear to work. so i switched it back.

what is the trick to make B&N work?

thanks for your time and support.

john

[Z-squared]

John wrote: "Z-squared

i see, for each step forward we take one back?

i'm not sure what you mean by fake ISBN 10.

out of curiosity, i did a quick test.

- went to the "edit data" for pandora driver
- i del..."

Sorry, the fake ISBN10 comment is a bit of 'insider baseball' for librarians. Feel free to ignore.

B&N does not use ISBNs for nook ebooks, instead they have proprietary BNIDs that are 13 digits long and sorta look like ISBN13s. You can tell they are from B&N because they all start with 294. We put them in ISBN13 field and leave the ISBN10 field blank. Without that number, searching by anything but the title on B&N will get you nowhere. Now the wrinkle on the prune is we're not allowed to get data from B&N's website for legal issues EXCEPT for what's in the URL. So I know from the URL that B&N's nook ebook BNID for your book is 2940013572638. I assume it has the same cover and other info as the ebook edition? Normally I would just charge right in and create a nook edition for any book I see that needs one, but since you've been knee-deep in this problem, I thought I'd ask permission first.

[John]

Renske

it's only faster if the editions are not under a single listing. if they are all the same listing, like they used to be, the point would be moot.

unless search data on goodreads proves otherwise, i'm very skeptical that the majority of customers are searching for product numbers over titles. if my guess if correct, that would also make the moot.

is there any available data to support 'number search' majority preference?

john

[Z-squared]

John wrote: "Renske

it's only faster if the editions are not under a single listing. if they are all the same listing, like they used to be, the point would be moot.

unless search data on goodreads proves oth..."

Does it really matter? You're tilting at windmills here and doing it where no one with the ability to change things is listening anyway.

I gotta tell you, if I were one of your readers, there would be nothing stopping me from adding the Kindle and nook editions to your listings, and I would see it as HELPING you. In fact, I have gone out of my way to do just that for my favorite authors' books in an effort to make it even easier for others to enjoy their stuff. Call it a nerdy, anal, silly labor of love. The only thing holding me back from updating every one of your books likewise is that it would probably give you a panic attack. ;)

On a side note, I know of no policy regarding who to list for self-published Nook ebook editions, so I can at least put "John Picha" as the publisher for that one...

[Monique]

John,

I can't give you numbers, but I can tell you that when I buy an ebook on Amazon, before I hit the buy button, I always look up the ASIN on Goodreads so I can add it to my books. When I add a book I own at home (dead tree edition), I always look it up by ISBN. I only look up a book by title if I can't find it one of those two ways first.

Why? Because using the ASIN or the ISBN gives me *my* edition and not some random edition. I know I am not the only one. A lot of people on Goodreads shelve their edition of the book.

ETA: Additionally, cacheing issues which can affect titles when adding a book new to the database do not affect ASINs and ISBNs. I can add a new book and look it up via ASIN/ISBN but search for the title and it won't show up.

[John]

Z-squared

ok so if i'm following correctly, B&N has an internal/proprietary number too and GR uses that to initiate a B&N search. And, if i'm seeing where this is headed, the store pulldown is pretty much useless now, and will be phased out at some point?

--

the cover will always be the same, since the book is identical across all stores.

it sounds like i have no real choice in this GR evolution. charge in on the nook edit.

--

ok, so now going forward, let me ask this.

each time a publish a new book in the future, and then decide to create a listing here on goodreads, i'm expected to make a duplicate entry/new edition for each unique store or device?

if that's true, you have to recognize that's not very efficient, from the data input or user side.

--

if i can make an "info architecture suggestion" here...

modify this page to accommodate all the stores and their unique numbers, or even direct links for the smaller stores.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/edit/1...

then the pulldown would activate the links to the unique numbers on the applicable store more or less like direct links.

then you'd only need listing for per ebook on GR. the edition issue would only separate a physical book from an ebook. and, if i remember correctly from this conversation, that was the initial point of the edition division.

thanks for your time and support.

john

[Z-squared]

John wrote: "ok, so now going forward, let me ask this.

each time a publish a new book in the future, and then decide to create a listing here on goodreads, i'm expected to make a duplicate entry/new edition for each unique store or device?

if that's true, you have to recognize that's not very efficient, from the data input or user side."

More or less. If you don't want to do it yourself, it's no problem to ask a librarian to do it. Just provide the additional ID numbers and we'll do it. It's slow for you but pretty fast for us, since we do this for fun. I doubt this is the optimal solution, but that's what is in place now. Again, this is the librarians group, not the feedback group. We do this for fun and for free, and have no say in how features work.

John wrote:"if i can make an "info architecture suggestion" here..."

Strictly speaking, you can't make a suggestion here. Do so in the feedback group. :)

Making a nook edition now. Done. Here:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...

[John]

Monique and Z

i think you should consider the possibility that because you are goodreads librarians, and have inside info about evolutions in this site and are used to dealing with GR data behind the scenes, you may be experiencing goodreads from within a bubble.

much of what was presented by your team in this thread has been personal or anecdotal information. much of the information i have been given has been in accurate. some questions have been unanswerable. and i've asked for data but i've gotten opinions.

what i'm offering you in this exchange is a customer-side view of the "goodreads experience", while trying to understand the changes that are taking place within GR, as they effect my stake in it. (my stake being my ebook listings).

you may think goodreads is easy to use, and makes perfect sense, but from my personal experience, i can assure that everything about it doesn't. also, other authors and readers interested in goodreads ask me how to do things on it all the time. from what i can tell from those interactions, the GR interface is confusing to more people then just me. if you read any of the threads in this group that becomes very clear, very quickly.

from my experience in usability testing, i know that when a system changes, if people aren't aware of the changes in advance, the changes look like errors because an expected behavior has changed. that's what triggered this thread.

at the very least, you should consider that everyone is not using GR the same way each of you do. that is demonstrable true.

thanks for the time and support.

john

[Z-squared]

John wrote: "Monique and Z

i think you should consider the possibility that because you are goodreads librarians, and have inside info about evolutions in this site and are used to dealing with GR data behind ..."

Ugh. One last response, then I retire from this conversation forever. We are not GR employees. We do this for "fun". We have ZERO control over features. Nor are we stakeholders in GR. You are posting legitimate complaints on a message board read only by librarians and Rivka. You make excellent points, suggest useful changes, and give illustrative examples of the user/author experience. You just do it ON THE WRONG MESSAGE BOARD. I'm just trying to help you within the scope of my limited powers, explicate the context or history behind seemingly nonsensical policies, and come up with workarounds for your books specifically, all while trying not to invoke the wrath of actual GR employees who may yank my privileges if I do something against policy. I'm sure it's not intentional, but you are taking out your frustration on the wrong people. Moreover, the only people still reading this thread are you, me, and librarian rubberneckers who enjoy reading flame wars and are hoping this will turn into one before Rivka freezes the thread. Stop grumping at the people who are trying to help you and are powerless to change things. Submit your excellent comments to THE FEEDBACK GROUP, and I will cross my fingers someone actually listens to you.

*mic drop*

[John]

is there an actual GR tech support system that's supported by Goodreads?

thanks for your time and support.

john

[John]

for anyone following this thread in the future, i made another "pull down vs multiple edition" discovery, that was overlooked during the discussion.

at the time of writing this, the "secondary editions" only appears automatically, when a user is logged into goodreads . someone browsing goodreads, who is not logged in, will only see one edition unless they know to hit "more details".

so a potential customer, who is not signed into GR, could be lead to believe the only jump to your ebook on a store, is via the "online stores" pulldown.

john