Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction discussion
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Hero of Rome
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NOVEMBER 2013 (Group Read 1) Hero of Rome by Douglas Jackson
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Lol mixal. I witnessed how fast you tore through that Outlaw series by Angus Donald. That was an impressive example of having no control. I'm the same way sometimes.
I personally leave years between books in a series. Makes it a little hard to keep track sometimes but it's a good way to keep a great series going for a long time. :)
Derek:I don't know what you're talking about :)
Dawn:
That seems a bit extreme for me. I like to immerse in the story, so I think that 2-3 books in a row are quite ok for me, but then it is sometimes better to take a break. Depends on the plot, too. In any case, I am planning to keep my favourite series alive by re-reading :).
Ah well, therein lies my problem. I don't re-read, always looking for the next great series instead! The phrase "got to kiss a lot of frogs before you find your prince" applies to this process. :)
Terri wrote: "Good idea. I have ruined many a series for myself by reading them too close together. :)"Another thing I found is not to read two different books set in the same time and place, even by different authors, one immediately after the other, e.g., two 1st crusade, say.
I enjoy rereading, but not immediately. I'm mostly HF but enjoy throwing in other genres from time to time.
I don't like doing that either, not always because it bores me to be in the same setting again, but because I cannot help but compare the books.
Err..gifs. I'll leave that review for the gif lovers. lol :)
gifs?? what does that mean? I guess that's Bell's 'favorite book of 2013'? :)
.gif is a kind of, erm... format to save photos. Some are .jpeg, others are .b(something). I can't remember them all anymore lol
yeah gifs are the short moving video clips. I hate them in Goodreads reviews. Lots of people like them though and will enjoy Bell's review. Each to their own.
Terri wrote: "yeah gifs are the short moving video clips. I hate them in Goodreads reviews. Lots of people like them though and will enjoy Bell's review. Each to their own."Well, I didn't even see where it was, but I'm sure I missed nothing. Wow, his opinion was vehement enough in words!! I wondered what all those blank spaces were.
Jane wrote: "Terri wrote: "yeah gifs are the short moving video clips. I hate them in Goodreads reviews. Lots of people like them though and will enjoy Bell's review. Each to their own."Well, I didn't even se..."
Jane wrote: "Terri wrote: "yeah gifs are the short moving video clips. I hate them in Goodreads reviews. Lots of people like them though and will enjoy Bell's review. Each to their own."
Well, I didn't even se..."
So, no gif lovers here :) And I actually understand that, historical fiction (well, bar the cheesy romantic kind) may not be the best genre for them.
Still, I have legimite problems with this novel, and for those who the gif´s turned off from the review, boils down to this (spoilers follow!):
the use of characters in the story is very amateurish. The main heavy is dealt away at halfpoint of the novel, with no involvement from the hero - leaving no real baddie to the rest of the story (Boudicca´s actions are understandable, she is a freedom fighter, not a villain), the love plot has a very weird twist, also near the midpoint, and in the end we get the good old deux ex machina. And there is the cast of minor characters that are developed more or less during the novel...and then just dissepear, again without any involvement from the hero.
Yeah, this was not my favourite novel of the year! Yet there is good stuff in it, the main battle is great and well written (thou it too ends with sudden whimper). And I am going to give this series a second change by reading the next one in series...in a while...
Hi Bell,Thanks for that. :)
I think that is a very fair 2 star review. Obviously it is hard for a reviewer to express why they gave a book 1 or 2 stars without offending the author in some way, but I think you were fair.
Bell, you were honest, and that's all anyone asks for.
Too true.I know in the past I have slain books that I gave 1 or 2 stars to. But I am trying to be a bit more responsible now. Hold some of the 'disgust' element back. (disgust being an honest reaction I sometimes have to books I have given 1 or 2 stars to). If I really dislike what an author has done with a book, I think disgust is the one I have to work on. It is a strong reaction that is hard to overcome when writing a review.
Bell's review is a good example of getting the negatives across without letting disgust creep in.
Terri wrote: "Too true.I know in the past I have slain books that I gave 1 or 2 stars to. But I am trying to be a bit more responsible now. Hold some of the 'disgust' element back. (disgust being an honest rea..."
Historical fiction is such a difficult genre fo authors, you have to combine history, characters and storytelling. I think that´s why there are so few five star ones in this genre and so many "paint by the numbers" ones coming out. Still, as a reader I have nothing but respect for those who tackle the challenge, but it must be said that research is easy, writing a great novel, or even good one...not so much :)
Bell wrote: " it must be said that research is easy, writing a great novel, or even good one...not so much :) ..."I completely agree. The research is indeed the easy part.
Knowing the era and the setting does not make for a good novel. The author still has to be able to write well and tie together a good plot/storyline.
Bell wrote: "Terri wrote: "Too true.I know in the past I have slain books that I gave 1 or 2 stars to. But I am trying to be a bit more responsible now. Hold some of the 'disgust' element back. (disgust being..."
LOL, Bell, your review was so intriguing that I think I will read the book!
Terri wrote: "Bell wrote: " it must be said that research is easy, writing a great novel, or even good one...not so much :) ..."I completely agree. The research is indeed the easy part.
Knowing the era and th..."
And, what's VERY important to me is the characterization. I must be able to sympathize with or care about a character or characters. Funny, Bell, we had different reactions to these characters. I was glad to see the baddie get his comeuppance, wherever it came.
I always like to see baddies get their comeuppance. It is a pet peeve for me when an author makes a loathsome character too loathsome and then brings him/her back in every book. Some baddies need to get their comeuppance and not be there in every book in a series doing the same old baddie stuff.
Terri wrote: "I always like to see baddies get their comeuppance. It is a pet peeve for me when an author makes a loathsome character too loathsome and then brings him/her back in every book. Some baddies need t..."I'd say this guy's comeuppance was pretty final!! :)
Jane wrote: "Terri wrote: "Bell wrote: " it must be said that research is easy, writing a great novel, or even good one...not so much :) ..."I completely agree. The research is indeed the easy part.
Knowing ..."
Yes I agree with that. I have not quite finished the book yet, but my favorite scene within the book was Boudicca's vengeance upon Crespo and the Iceni uprising.
If I can just throw in my tuppence worth. As an author I found Bell's review and his use of daft gifs and 'ho, ho, ho' asides terribly patronising. Two stars is fine and he makes some reasonable points in the 'spoiler alert' passage, but overall none of his 'respect for those who tackle the challenge' is apparent. As for the throwaway 'research is easy' line, I'd like to hear him debate that with my author friends Ben Kane, Tony Riches and Russ Whitfield, who walked the 72 miles of Hadrian's Wall in three types of full Roman kit to test the various theories about their flexibility. By all means dislike a book and let people know why, but please never forget the time and effort that's been invested in its creation, or the courage it takes to put it out for publication in the first place.
Doug wrote: "If I can just throw in my tuppence worth. As an author I found Bell's review and his use of daft gifs and 'ho, ho, ho' asides terribly patronising. Two stars is fine and he makes some reasonable po..."Doug, I've bought and am reading the other books in your series. I'm really liking them. Besides all those things--research, story, plausibility, with minimal gore, sex, and swearing [I realize a certain amount is probably necessary], I feel characterization is very important. Like two or three other Roman heroes I could mention, Valerius has come alive for me. I hope in future volumes you can bring out more his devotion to and love for his sister--that was the strong point for me in Book 2. And I'm glad Lady D isn't quite as annoying as she was when we met her. Frankly, I disliked her intensely; now I feel she's just unpleasant. If characters create a reaction, you must be doing something right.
Research? Excuse me, I was a librarian and know how difficult it can be.
I admire anyone who has the creativity to write a book and brave enough to see it to publication!
Jane wrote: "Research? Excuse me, I was a librarian and know how difficult it can be.I admire anyone who has the creativity to write a book and brave enough to see it to publication! "
I agree wholeheartedly!
Doug wrote: "If I can just throw in my tuppence worth. As an author I found Bell's review and his use of daft gifs and 'ho, ho, ho' asides terribly patronising. Two stars is fine and he makes some reasonable po..."I am sorry Bell's review offended you, Doug. And that we offended you also by thinking he was being fair and that research is easy.
In my defense. On the research thing though. I personally didn't mean that it was overall a simple process. What I meant was that compared to how much hard work it is to get the writing up to a professional quality and to get a good working storyline, it is easy.
Still hardwork to do the research, but easy compared to the work an author puts into sitting at the typewriter/computer day in day out nailing word count goals. Trying to get thoughts down on paper. Constructing characters, setting, plot and trying to do it all while maintaining a quality writing standard.
This is why there are a thousands of self published authors (as opposed to the ones getting picked up by publishers or those that should get picked up by publishers and don't) out there that are practically experts in the era they have written a book in and can spout facts and details about eras at the drop of a hat, but the writing in their books does not live up to that level of expertise. They do the research, but that still doesn't mean they can write well. Or if they can write well, it doesn't mean they can build a decent plot.
In that triumvirate, research, writing quality, clever plot: the research is indeed the easy part and is why there are so many bad historically accurate books out there.
Doug wrote: "If I can just throw in my tuppence worth. As an author I found Bell's review and his use of daft gifs and 'ho, ho, ho' asides terribly patronising. Two stars is fine and he makes some reasonable po..."It´s great that you joined the disccusion! But first, "patronising" and "throwaway line". Really? As a published author you perhaps should not take it so personally if a reader does not love your novel. I understand that writing is hard work and it must be frustrating to read critique from person who has no knowledge about the long editing, rewrite and outlining process I am sure it took to get the novel done. But still, this was just my take on a novel I read, not an attack on you.
You also did not feel that I showed enough respect, well...do you think that I should have given the novel more stars that I felt it deserved, or praised it while I found it lacking in some aspects because I respect the amount of work that is needed to finish a novel?
And as for the research being easy: it is. At least compared to the challenge of using it in a novel. We live in a world where information is easy to get by and finding and contacting experts of very narrow fields of knowledge is also relatively easy. Not saying that it is nothing, but the real challenge is to get the research and storytelling work as good historical novel. And I am sorry to say this bluntly, but walking the Hadrian´s Wall does not a good novel make unless the storytelling and characters work.
Again, my hat is off to you for joining this discussion and I want to congratulate you on the stuff I really liked in your novel, like the battle scene - It was very well written and intense. And I do plan to read further on your series with an open mind.
Bell, Jackson explains in the very lines you quoted that it wasn't your rating that bothered him, but the gifs (like the dolphin one) and the tone (ho, ho, ho).As far as the research goes, it isn't easy in the least. I'm not published, but I've written a couple of hf novels, and the research is very difficult, though of course very rewarding when it goes right. I remember going nuts one writing session because at every new line I was having to research something. My character is opening a door -- wait, did they have door knobs back then? levers or latches? were the hinges metal, wooden, or leather? And then he opens the window -- wait, did they have glass or leather or horn panes, or did they have shutters? It's a constant judgment call to decide what to research and what not. And then, of course, you always have to make the call when you get competing research (as is so often the case).
Like you, I plan on reading on. I enjoyed the book, and I'm glad Jane is enjoying the rest of the series.
Hm, do not want to get too involved in this but I would love to walk 72 miles of Hadrian's Wall in three types of full Roman kit. Wish I had the time, kit, and means to get to Hadrian's wall... I do not really know Ben, Anthony etc. (only from the novels which I liked), but I suppose their company was not the difficult part. I appreciate the effort and passion (they certainly do not have to do it as writers), but it still sounds more like fun than a sacrifice.As for the research...well, welcome to my world - almost every sentence I write needs a citation. I not only have to follow the facts, but I even have to refer to where the fact came from. But it was my choice to follow such career so I do not think I should complain. Quite the opposite, I very much complain if others in the field do not do it, too.
Overall, I liked the series. Not all the Bell's gifs are very tasteful or relevant, but I still do not think it's something all that offensive. I think what is hurtful is mostly the fact that the review is quite sophisticated and not all that positive so it cannot be easily dismissed. On the other hand, I like the stories to be realistic so I do not see it as a bad thing if the main character is not involved in all relevant parts. Life is very much like that, too. So I wouldn't lose my sleep over that. Anyway, I really hope I will go for the Hadrian's wall trip once...
A walk on Hadrian's wall would be amazing. The only wall of any significance near me is around my local shopping center. I'd walk it, but I don't think I'd get many insights. Just some questions from the police.
Justin wrote: "A walk on Hadrian's wall would be amazing. The only wall of any significance near me is around my local shopping center. I'd walk it, but I don't think I'd get many insights. Just some questions fr..."Especially in fur Roman kit! :)
Anyway, I think I would have it closer to the Chinese knock off ;).
I'll join you guys on that Hadrian's Walll walk. I'll bring the sandwiches. :)In all honesty, the closest I will ever come to a Hadrian's Wall walk, was the money I donated to the cause that Ben, Tony and Russell Whitfield walked for (Combat Stress & Médecins Sans Frontières). Both excellent causes.
By donating, it made me only one degree of seperation from that fun walk. That was a buzz.
I am not the only one commenting in this thread that donated to Ben's walk though. ;)
Sorry, I was in Bermuda. :)
Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction
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I might consider doing this, too...I realize that sometimes I enjoy books more when I do not read one after another in the series. But I have so little control! :)