Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction discussion
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Hero of Rome
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NOVEMBER 2013 (Group Read 1) Hero of Rome by Douglas Jackson
Am further along--nearly to Boudicca's rebellion.(view spoiler) before the conflict was a good touch, and very plausible.
Jane wrote: "Am further along--nearly to Boudicca's rebellion.[spoilers removed] before the conflict was a good touch, and very plausible."
nodding
Am I right to assume pronaos would be basically equivalent to a nave in church usage?
from WikipediaA pronaos (UK /proʊˈneɪ.ɒs/ or US /proʊˈneɪ.əs/) is the inner area of the portico of a Greek or Roman temple, situated between the portico's colonnade or walls and the entrance to the cella, or shrine. Roman temples commonly had an open pronaos, usually with only columns and no walls, and the pronaos could be as long as the cella. The word pronaos is Greek for "before a temple". In Latin, a pronaos is also referred to as an anticum or prodomus.
based on this, I would say is is basically equivalent to a nave
Here's a drawing of temple for a better idea - I would think it's more like a lobby type of area.http://www.guide-martine.com/history5...
I wondered if it was both nave AND narthex.
Jane wrote: "I wondered if it was both nave AND narthex."I can see that
Doug wrote: ".Hi Jane, naming non-Roman people from ancient periods in Britain is one of the toughest parts of writing a novel about those times. Apart from a few kings, some of whom (Caratacus, Calgacus and the largely made up list of Geoffrey of Monmouth) have been Romanised. The only woman we have is Boudicca/Boadicea, who is unlikely to have been called that for the majority of her lifetime. Britain was made up of dozens of different tribes and sub-tribes, some of whom may have had different language roots and therefore different naming traditions.."Fascinating.
I am glad Jane asked about Maeve. The result was me learning a bunch of great stuff. :)
Thank you, Terri. I was most pleasantly surprised and plan to follow Valerius' further adventures.
Doug, I know you said choosing names for your non-Roman characters is difficult and I appreciate your hard work. But it felt strange to me for your whole cavalry ala to have Hungarian names.
Were there not Hungarians in the cavalry? In the form of Sarmations?
He describes the Calvary as being Thracians in the novel. Not sure if names are similar in that vein.
This from a great little site I just found on the Fell Pony. (The Fell Pony Museum) http://www.fellpony.f9.co.uk/fells/ro... Troop numbers in Northern Britain
Pliny the Elder (d. AD79) describes Sarmatian endurance practices: "The Sarmatians prepare their horses in advance for a long journey by withholding their fodder the day before and only allowing them a little water. This way they ride 150 miles non-stop." Tacitus in the "Germania" (AD55) also describes the Sarmatians, "who live on horseback and dwell in waggons." The Roman historian Cassius Dio speaks of 5,500 Sarmatian hostages taken from their Hungarian homelands in AD175 and sent to Britain (Dio, History LXXXI.xvi) under Marcus Aurelius. It was possibly only a temporary posting, but it was a very large one. Some of the hostages were apparently formed into the Ala Sarmatarum and stationed at the Ribchester fort; it is possible that this Wing bred and trained the army remounts.
"On retirement the Sarmatians may have received land in Bowland, as a tradition of horse-breeding survived in the area through to the monastic period. Kirkstall Abbey had horse breeding "ranches" in the Slaidburn area up until the dissolution. A local farmer has deeds for his farm that actually mention that horses were kept rather than sheep or cattle as they were able to escape the predations of wolves." (D Higham, pers. comm. 2002, quoting the opinion of Dr M C Higham).
The Sarmatians are said to have been fond of the Dragon as a fighting symbol. In the third century AD, the Romans adopted the Sarmatian standard, the draconarius, in all their cavalry regiments. (ref)
Darcy wrote: "He describes the Calvary as being Thracians in the novel. Not sure if names are similar in that vein."Ah. I see.
Terri wrote: "This from a great little site I just found on the Fell Pony. (The Fell Pony Museum) http://www.fellpony.f9.co.uk/fells/ro... Troop numbers in Northern Britain
Pliny the Elder (d..."
Fascinating!
It is isn't it. The site on the Fell Pony is fascinating in itself, but we do like to see what Pliny the Elder has to say about things. :)
Terri wrote: "Were there not Hungarians in the cavalry? In the form of Sarmations?"Interesting website on Magyars:
http://hungarianhistory.freeservers.c...
It does mention something about Scythians.
Jane wrote: "Doug wrote: "Jane wrote: "I'm a little further along. I had a question about names: In the Prologue, the character is named Gwilym--I know it's Welsh and that fits where he comes from. The leadin..."Thanks for an excellent review Jane, much appreciated and I'm glad you enjoyed Hero of Rome. Mea culpa on Bela and Matykas, they were a couple of nice young guys from that part of the world I met on a holiday, and the names just seemed to fit the characters. Then again, do we know that 2,000 years ago there weren't a couple of Thracians with those names? The jury is out!
I had to smile when I saw Bela--of course I immediately thought of Bela Lugosi, Count Dracula himself, and of course Bela Bartok, the composer.That may well be there were folks with those names. You're right, how do we know for sure? Only Thracian name I could think of was Spartacus, because I believe he came from there. Of course, that form was Latinized.
Jane wrote: "I had to smile when I saw Bela--of course I immediately thought of Bela Lugosi, Count Dracula himself, and of course Bela Bartok, the composer.That may well be there were folks with those names. ..."
Spartacus - if he was Thracian, perhaps he came from an area near where Sparta had been. Or maybe he was given the name by his Roman owners, to make him sound more fierce in the arena.
Possible. I don't know if this was actually the case in real life, but in the novel about the Germanic warrior princess [I hate that term] The Light Bearer Auriane, the heroine, is captured and taken to Rome as a slave and beomes a gladiatrix with the name Aurinia. At least in that novel, names were changed completely or at least Latinized.
I'm about half way through HoR (bought a copy on Amazon, since none of my local libraries carry Jackson), and I'm enjoying it. It's a good sign, for me at least, that we're picking apart details like personal names. That means the novel is historically accurate enough for me to not only enjoy it as as novel, but also benefit from it as a history lesson. The best of both worlds.
Justin wrote: "benefit from it as a history lesson. The best of both worlds. .."This is one of the reasons I like HF. because if the author has done the leg work, I get a history lesson at the same time as enjoying a good story.
Terri wrote: "Justin wrote: "benefit from it as a history lesson. The best of both worlds. .."This is one of the reasons I like HF. because if the author has done the leg work, I get a history lesson at the sa..."
agreed
Question: Doug, are you using the owl as a death symbol? I know the Native Americans among other cultures considered it to be a death symbol.
Jane wrote: "Question: Doug, are you using the owl as a death symbol? I know the Native Americans among other cultures considered it to be a death symbol."I know there's a Roman tradition that the hoot of an owl was a precursor to a death, Jane, but I think I was using the owl more as a kind of spiritual reflection of Maeve. I didn't incorporate it as a symbol deliberately, it just seemed right that it appeared at the times it did.
Justin wrote: "I'm about half way through HoR (bought a copy on Amazon, since none of my local libraries carry Jackson), and I'm enjoying it. It's a good sign, for me at least, that we're picking apart details li..."Glad you're enjoying HoR so far Justin. When I set out to write books I always wanted to inform as well as entertain, because my favourite authors have probably taught me more about history and society than any teacher did. I think it's also a nice way of paying your reader back for their support.
Doug, I enjoyed it very much and am very glad swearing and other coarseness is at a minimum. Also, any love interest was not graphic and left much up to the imagination. I haven't read the others in the series but plan to. I hope you continue in the same vein with these things--will keep these things at a minimum.
I glanced through the book again--and this time I could see the owl as motif. An owl was mentioned once or twice more--I don't remember pp. I'd have to look closer. 'Spiritual reflection of Maeve' is a good way of expressing her state.I hope I'm not being too Wagnerian here. :)
So the feedback of HoR seems positive so far. that is great to see. Seeing as liking a series debut means that it could mean you have found whole bunch of books to read. The series does have four in it to date. :) With more to come.
Nearly done, and I'd agree. It's a good book and I'm encouraged to read the next one.
I put in my order to Powell's earlier today for the other three in the series.
Not a huge amount of feedback happening on HoR. Lots over on Sworn Sword, not much here.Why is that do you all think?
Jane wrote: "Am further along--nearly to Boudicca's rebellion.[spoilers removed] before the conflict was a good touch, and very plausible."
Re: Jane's spoiler (view spoiler)
Terri wrote: "Not a huge amount of feedback happening on HoR. Lots over on Sworn Sword, not much here.Why is that do you all think?"
Too many people like it. Not enough dissension! :)
Ha. Yeah maybe that is it. Seeing as I couldn't source it in time for the group read I have been waiting for the feedback to start rolling in. Members seem a lot quieter with the HoR read compared to the Sworn Sword read.
Darcy wrote: "Re: Jane's spoiler This is one of those long standing t..."
Unfortunately (and sometimes fortunately I suppose) Wiki is the easiest and quickest link to find to give others some detail on a topic.
The upside is Wiki usually have links out to other sources and sites so at least if others want to look into something further, they can move off of Wiki.
Well, that's what I tell myself when I have to resort to Wiki links. ;)
I guess what I am saying is..don't be ashamed of your wiki link, Ms Darcy. :]
I don't mind Wiki too much. As you say, often the links are very useful. It's just that with that particular link I found it to be a bit short on detail and was hoping for something more comprehensive. Alas, we take what we can get I guess.
I find some books are just easier to discuss than others. With some books I find while reading them, though they may be enjoyable, it is hard to really think of anything particularly insightful or interesting to offer up to the discussion about the book. With some books it is easier to just sort of go along for the ride so to speak. I think I am a bit behind the reading than everyone else as I started reading a little late, and so far I have been liking it, and think it is a good book, nothing has really jumped out at me as far as worthwhile I could say about it within this group.
That's true. I find that often with historical fiction. I was wondering if the limited discussions on the book indicated a slight lack of historical context.
But you guys feel history is represented well in the book?
Terri wrote: "Darcy wrote: "Re: Jane's spoiler This is one of those long standing t..."
Unfortunately (and sometimes fortunately I suppose) Wiki is the easiest and quickest link to find to give others some de..."
I try to find things other than Wiki if I can.
Here's one on Lindow Man: (view spoiler)
Terri wrote: "That's true. I find that often with historical fiction. I was wondering if the limited discussions on the book indicated a slight lack of historical context.
But you guys feel history is represen..."
From what I have read so far I think it is. The conflict between the Celts and the Romans is a subject I have read much about, and well the Celts in general are a favorite subject of mine.
I think that the portrayal shown thus far seems to be fairly accurate. One of the things I was thinking while reading this book is that it reminded me of some of the other books we have read, particularly about King Arthur which deals which also dealt with the Celts during the period of Roman rule.
The chapters dealing with the Colonia reminds me of scenes I have read in other books set around this same time period. I have enjoyed those chapters, and found them in many ways quite amusing. I liked the competition between Falco's troupes and those of Valerius, I also like seeing the interactions between the Celts and the Brits.
Doug wrote: "Glad you're enjoying HoR so far Justin..."I very much am, and I'm finding that I'm enjoying it more as I progress through the book. I'm just over halfway through, and it's really heated up.
Jane wrote: "Doug, I enjoyed it very much and am very glad swearing and other coarseness is at a minimum. Also, any love interest was not graphic and left much up to the imagination. I haven't read the other..."I very much want to second this. So much historical fiction is coarse and crude, far beyond what is necessary to portray the brutality of the world. I'm very relieved and pleased that you haven't sunk to that. I also want to thank the moderators of this group for picking this book!
Silver wrote: "I find some books are just easier to discuss than others. With some books I find while reading them, though they may be enjoyable, it is hard to really think of anything particularly insightful or ..."I agree with you, Silver. I'm enjoying the book, but don't feel a compelling need to discuss it. I did with Pride of Carthage from last month.
Amen to Justin!!! I'm so grateful to you for writing such a book, Doug, without these negatives Justin and I mentioned!!I thank these ladies, too, for their choice!
Justin wrote: "Jane wrote: "Doug, I enjoyed it very much and am very glad swearing and other coarseness is at a minimum. Also, any love interest was not graphic and left much up to the imagination. I haven't r..."agreed with this it is a nice element of this book, and worked for this story. That being said, sometimes I desire sometime to be unrelentingly brutal.
Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction
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Thank you--a reasonable explanation. Maeve is like Queen Mab in Shakespeare--R&J? And I have heard Caradoc/Caradog for Caratacus. That fits from where he came from.
I'm enjoying the book. Swearing is minimal--a good thing--and I think a sweet love affair is developing slowly between Briton and Roman.