The Catcher in the Rye
discussion
The Most Overrated Books
Kallie wrote;"No, Karen is right. Faulkner is not an easy read though worth the effort . . . and the downright pain (Sanctuary, argh)."
And it's worth all the pain!
Petergiaquinta wrote: "The good doctor helped himself to a pharmaceutical now and then, but it's unfair to lump Vonnegut with HST. There's nothing "drug addled" about Slaughterhouse Five. That's a brilliantly thoughtful ..."I wouldn't change a word of Slaughterhouse Five. It IS written as if in an altered state, but that shook me in a good way.
Open the door..., look inside.There you are. :}
deleted user wrote: "Which books do you think are overrated? Here's a quick sampling from various internet sites that recommend skipping these:
The Catcher in the Rye
Moby Dick
The Great Gatsby
Waiting for Godot
The..."
I love Catcher, Gatsby, Godot, Stranger--I enjoyed Da Vinci Code.
The rest aren't to my taste, which is key. Not every book is for every person, but I've read or tried to read all of them.
I think the world could would be better without Atlas Shrugged and Twilight, but people love them. I love The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo books, and someone already commented he/she would put them on the list.
It comes down to taste!
Cora wrote: "The rest aren't to my taste, which is key. Not every book is for every person, but I've read or tried to read all of them. I think the world could would be better without Atlas Shrugged and Twilight, but people love them. I love The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo books, and someone already commented he/she would put them on the list.
It comes down to taste!"
Yes it does, but posts here are more interesting when people explain why they don't like a book in an intelligent way- I'm not saying YOU didn't, but too many people post here just to say they hated a book, with no explanation.
I have another classic to add: anyone here read Dandelion Wine by Ray Bradbury? I all but vomited while reading it.
Dandelion Wine is one of my favorite novels.
I loved it, too. Bradbury goes inside, thoughts and emotions, of his characters, moreso than most science/speculative fiction. In many ways, he's more in line with the magical realists. I really need to go back and re-read his catalog of works again.
Agree totally, Renee. You have to give your imagination and emotion over when reading his work.
Agree totally, Renee. You have to give your imagination and emotion over when reading his work.
I think you made the perfect case with comparing the list to the most overrated ice cream flavors. Thank you! :)Michael wrote: "Making a list like this is like making a list of the most over rated ice cream flavors.
Chocolate
Strawberry
Vanilla
What do you think constitutes something being 'over rated' to begin with? Is i..."
Merry Christmas, everyone!Dandelion Wine is such a beautiful book, such a perfect portrait of the joys and terrors of childhood. It's too bad this younger reader can't appreciate what Bradbury is doing here, but it just might be that the vision of "childhood" Bradbury presents in the book has been ruined by the fears of hovering helicopter parents with their bicycle helmets sucking the life out of just about everything that used to be fun growing up.
The role of the imagination is so important in Douglas Spaulding's childhood experience as seen in Dandelion Wine, and to childhood in general. Growing up indoors addicted to screens is no way to spend one's childhood.
I've not heard of her, Cemre, but that doesn't signify anything ;-)
I bolstered my childhood with old books full of sagas, folk and fairy tales that manifestly were not for children, lol. And Poe, and Hawthorne . . . And The Five Little Peppers. I loved those. Mamsie was all I could wish for in a mother. My younger sister seemed to think my name was Damnyourenee for some time.
Even Baba Yaga seemed rather kind. But no one much knows who Baba Yaga is anymore, especially not children.
My favorite Roald Dahl book was "My Uncle Oswald." :DI couldn't hate Matilda. I identified with her too closely.
Cemre wrote: "The best children's writer of all times is Hans Christen Andersen, period. The guy was a genius."He is my favorite. Do you have the edition with the Arthur Szyck (sp.) illustrations, or what is your favorite edition/translation? I like the Bros Grimm, but Andersen wrote characters, unforgettable characters rather than archtypes, and some very complex stories.
I liked the Five Little Peppers too, and Eleanor Estes.
And I would like to re-read Dandelion Wine and The Illustrated Man. It has been so long . . .
Noni wrote: "Well i think it is all very subjective and it depends on someone's preferences in books. I totally agree with you about the twilight saga books, though i have only read the first one i think it was..."Most of us here don't think it's over rated either, :)
Petergiaquinta wrote;"Merry Christmas, everyone!"
Thanks! You too!!
Heidi wrote: "I have another classic to add: anyone here read Dandelion Wine by Ray Bradbury? I all but vomited while reading it."I could not help but feel it was too "sweet". What did you like about it?
Kallie wrote: "One difference is, we could attribute some reason to this cockatoo's diatribe:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mALNy..."
I've been reading old posts to catch up and I came across this. Kallie, this is priceless!
Perhaps it's that the internet reaches the reader before the actual book does and influences their perceptions of it? It could also be that other literature, films and music have reached that reader and shaped their pov before the novel. I know of people who read it for the first time because of the movie, "Six Degrees of Separation". I also knew people who read the novel for the first time because it was mentioned in a Green Day song. I haven't read this particular book, but I read an article that claimed that the book "The Collector" references "The Catcher in the Rye" rather negatively.
Anne Hawn wrote: "Kallie wrote: "One difference is, we could attribute some reason to this cockatoo's diatribe:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mALNy..."
I've been reading old posts to catch up and I came acros..."
I'm glad you enjoyed it and thanks for reposting! (I needed a laugh just now.)
Cemre wrote: "Why do you think Catcher saw such a huge backlash ?"Two reasons. First, I believe the backlash reflects present political realities. Holden represents the privileged 1%. Wealth and income disparity are reaching new highs every year and there's growing frustration and unrest among the poor and Middle Class who feel victimized by the job-destroying Mitt Romneys and Kochs who pull the strings behind the curtains of government and industry.
I am afraid that Holden has, unfairly, become a literary insult to those suffering the grim realities and hopelessness of the economic disparities of this age.
The second major reason, I suspect, is psychological. The book deals with the transition from juvenile to adulthood, a transition that young readers are still experiencing when they read it for the first time. I suspect reading about yourself as you are struggling with vital issues of personality development can feel theatening. It's also about a guy, and girls have their own issues.
Additionally, many older readers are still wrestling with unresloved issues of an incomplete transition to adulthood themselves. Many were forced by parental expectations into unfulfilling roles and careers, and the book reminds them of it.
A book that sells this well is an easy target. Expect the attacks to grow until the economics and politics reverse their present course. The other issues are timeless, and for this reason CiTR can never become outdated. Attacked for socio-political reasons, but never outdated.
Mochaspresso wrote: "I used to find myself having to re-write chapters from the science and social studies textbooks on a lower level for some students so they could learn the same content as the other children and always felt that there was a need for something like that." I am so impressed! Not many want to take that kind of time!
When I worked as an Educational Evaluator at the Dept. of Corrections (Juvenile) I did a project for a Mental Tests and Measurements class. I believed that we couldn't get an accurate picture of the reading level of most of our kids because the tests used language that our kids didn't use. The word "father" is on the 2nd grade vocabulary list but who can imagine an inner city delinquent recognizing that word at that level? I had to make a reading test that would reliably measure those kids' reading level and it really opened my eyes! It was unbelievably difficult.
There are people who write books for the "high interest/low vocabulary" students, but I have never seen textbooks made for kids at this level. Because they can't read the textbooks, they get further and further behind even though they could understand the ideas if presented at their reading level. I think you have a great idea!
Cemre wrote: "Is Holden 1% though ? USA is one of the richest countries in the world, Holden's family seems to do well, but can they represent 1% of United States of America ? Wasn't Holden's father a lawyer? ..."True, but corporate lawyers are major facilitators of the Kochs and Romneys, and they're paid immensely well for it. They write the legislation that chains us. They sit on the Supreme Court that redefined money as speech.
It is perception that matters, and Holden, merely by attending prep school, represents that privileged class.
Monty J wrote: "Mochaspresso wrote: " I cannot get into what I view as "drug lit" and "madman rantings"."I agree.
Ken Kesey dances close to this fire in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest and less so in Sometime..."
I'm with you there! I don't mind complex books or books that send me to the Internet to research, but "drug lit" and "madman rantings" leave me feeling that the writer is (1) too uninterested in the reader to communicate and (2) contemptuous of the value of the reader's time. There is something verbally masturbatory about this kind of writing.
Anne Hawn wrote: " The word "father" is on the 2nd grade vocabulary list but who can imagine an inner city delinquent recognizing that word at that level?"Absolutely true, and thank you for the insight and dedication you employ in your work. We need more people like you.
For me, "father" was an abstract dream embodied in a photograph kept in my "Anty's" trunk. I could slap the picture up against a mirror and look for similarities. I suspect most of those kids you mentioned didn't even have a photograph.
Finding Fish does an excellent job of surfacing the issues of "no father" and family.
Anne Hawn wrote: "There is something verbally masturbatory about this kind of writing."(Chuckles.)
Though sorely tempted, I decline to graphically express what my mind conjures up concerning orgiastic pens and phallic organs.
Monty J wrote: "Anne Hawn wrote: "There is something verbally masturbatory about this kind of writing."(Chuckles.)
Though sorely tempted, I decline to graphically express what my mind conjures up concerning or..."
Oh do it!!
Kallie wrote: "Anne Hawn wrote: "Kallie wrote: "One difference is, we could attribute some reason to this cockatoo's diatribe:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mALNy..."
I've been reading old posts to catch u..."
ROTFLOL! That was hysterical!
Im not gonna read all the comments ... Catcher in the Rye is the most overrated book ... it was trash. Just a scumbag kid who thought the world owed him something, I hated that book. After Salinger died a few articles finally told me why this book was so 'revered', and it was that many people could identify with Holden, I couldn't, I was never like him and just saw him as a deplorable character with no redeeming values.
Cemre wrote: "Going back to the original topic; labeling books as "overrated" is a very reader-centric criticism. It isn't against the book, but against the people who overrate it. It shuns you for liking someth..."I agree in theory, Cemre, that we ought to focus on the text. But without a reader, the text is just ink on a page (or pixels on a screen.) While you found Twilight to be boring, clearly many other readers disagree. T calls Catcher in the Rye "trash," while many of us adore it. I think at most we can say that Twilight was a bad match for you, and Catcher a bad match for T.
Although, one can make the argument that reading is much more involved than liking or disliking a flavor of ice cream. One can question how well our school system is preparing students to appreciate texts that are more demanding in various ways.
The Catcher in the Rye is not overrated in my opinion. It doesn't do well with many because of Holden. I lot of readers need characters that they can relate to in order to enjoy I book. But I find him interesting and that's why I think the book should always be considered a classic. The topic of adolescence to adulthood is one that we all go through.Great Gatsby, especially in recent years, has been overrated for far too long. It's a great book, and the last three pages especially are beautifully written, but it's not an amazing book like so many teens nowadays say.
I think there are more YA and contemporary books that are overrated. For example, The Book Thief is a lot of young people's favorite book. It was okay but the best part is the middle. I found it very difficult to finish. The Hunger Games and Divergent series are well written books with unique stories, but they are for sure hyped up to be better. And don't even get me started with the catastrophe that is Eleanor and Park.
T wrote: "Im not gonna read all the comments ... Catcher in the Rye is the most overrated book ... it was trash. Just a scumbag kid who thought the world owed him something, I hated that book."Maybe this will help: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
I wonder if it would be helpful to split our original list of overrated books into two categories; "books that are educational and foster intellectual growth" and "books that entertain." Once you do that, you can use different criteria. While each category should have certain things in common such as character development and plot, it doesn't make much difference if books written to entertain have an very strong plot, or inspiring syntax as long as the main characters are appealing and do amazing things. Who wants to see Agent 007 in a three piece suit taking a taxi to work?? (Unless, of course, it is a disguise.)Serious literature usually involves flawed main characters suffering in ways that will give them insight or lead to their destruction. Hopefully, reading those books will help the reader learn about the human condition without having to suffer in the same way. In order for that to happen the writer has to have the genius to make the characters compelling enough to make us relate to them, and the language skills to communicate with readers and make us want to read the books.
Michael wrote;"Although, one can make the argument that reading is much more involved than liking or disliking a flavor of ice cream. One can question how well our school system is preparing students to appreciate texts that are more demanding in various ways."
Not only that, and we have had this discussion awhile ago- teachers are trying to teach students to appreciate demanding texts to students who don't read and don't care all that much- at the same time trying to control behavior. And the value of reading is not reinforced at home.
Anne Hawn wrote: "Mochaspresso wrote: "I used to find myself having to re-write chapters from the science and social studies textbooks on a lower level for some students so they could learn the same content as the o..."Thanks. I did it because I thought it was needed and the administrative powers that be didn't seem to be concerned with the fact that students were unable to read the textbooks. All they were concerned with was their scores and an inability to read apparently was not enough of a reason to justify poor test scores.
However, I think what I used to do is affecting my writing in other areas now. I went to Barnes and Noble and purchased a journal. (Indulging a bit in my fantasy image of writers with their prized fancy notebooks!) I re-read some of what I've written in it thus far and it seems so simplistic. Simple no-nonsense sentences. I'm clearly no F. Scott Fitzgerald. Not that I have to be or necessarily even want to be.
Not necessarily because all of them are masterpieces, but because they are novels of great importance in the history of literature and they have had a great impact on many famous authors later on :) ..."Exactly. And they are all unique in their way, not written to satisfy some market but because the writer was a real artist who had something to say, about being human and about human society.
Hulda wrote: "Not necessarily because all of them are masterpieces, but because they are novels of great importance in the history of literature and they have had a great impact on many famous authors later on :) "and Kallie wrote: Exactly. And they are all unique in their way, not written to satisfy some market but because the writer was a real artist who had something to say, about being human and about human society.
Ladies and gentlemen, I believe we have a winner.
Catcher in the Rye ABSOLUTELY belongs at the top of this list. I read it as a teen, re-read as a college student, and read it again as a 40+ year old adult. I still do not understand the "importance" or point of this piece of whiny drivel.
Michael wrote: "Hulda wrote: "Not necessarily because all of them are masterpieces, but because they are novels of great importance in the history of literature and they have had a great impact on many famous auth..."Yes, we do!!
Took three shots at it. The first and third by choice. The middle one was a class assignment.
Um, guys...I'm pretty sure this thread just ended.
I fart in your general direction.
Michael wrote: "I fart in your general direction."Is that what smelt of elderberries?
Jerry wrote: "Catcher in the Rye ABSOLUTELY belongs at the top of this list. I read it as a teen, re-read as a college student, and read it again as a 40+ year old adult. I still do not understand the "importanc..."Perhaps this will help: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Mochaspresso wrote: "However, I think what I used to do is affecting my writing in other areas now. I went to Barnes and Noble and purchased a journal. (Indulging a bit in my fantasy image of writers with their prized fancy notebooks!) I re-read some of what I've written in it thus far and it seems so simplistic. Simple no-nonsense sentences."I know what you are talking about. When I was a librarian, I was trying to find books that my patrons would like. They'd read all the books by some popular authors and then ask for recommendations for similar books, so I was constantly looking for new authors.
Then one day, I read a speech by George Will to a college graduating class and I found myself having great difficulty following him. I have always liked him and he probably has the most sophisticated writing of all the current political writers. (I really missed his toe to toe with Phil Donahue, which is where I first found him.)
I realized that I had been reading so many popular books with simple declarative sentences and unchallenging vocabulary that I was loosing the ability to read serious literature. I started a "Great Books" group at my library and got busy reading Emerson's essays, Dickens, Hardy Fitzgerald, and others. Books that I had previously found challenging but readable were surprisingly difficult. I'm pleased to say that I found myself reading Proust a while back and enjoying it, so I believe my literary muscles are back in shape.
Kallie wrote: "Not necessarily because all of them are masterpieces, but because they are novels of great importance in the history of literature and they have had a great impact on many famous authors later on :..."Very well stated!
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I liked it, but it made my brain hurt. Maybe I'll try it again.