The Catcher in the Rye
discussion
The Most Overrated Books
Among the classics, i felt the Great Gatsby is somehow over-rated. It had all the major themes for a masterpiece; may be the narrative style was just not my type. I just could not empathize or relate to Gatsby. But it still have outstanding substance & stood the test of time.Most of the recent NYT best sellers are over-rated. Twilight is the quintessential best seller; which relied on the big ideas floating around among teenagers. 50 shades of grey is even worse, following the same skeleton as twilight: "ingenue appealed by a risky & dangerous guy", using a BDSM-maniac instead of a blood-sucking vampire. Same analogy goes for The Hunger Games & Divergent series: suddenly dystopian society is the cool thing. This sort of mass-produced & "formulated" works indicates a very bleak future for reading habit. I hope i am wrong, but the young-adults exposed to this sort of literature might carry on the genre of "cool".
Indra wrote: "I disagree with the inclusion of The Great Gatsby and The Catcher in the Rye."Good, me too
Shannon wrote: "Wow. What a bunch of pretension and personal jabs. It's like reading the comments on youtube videos. I'm off this thread because the nastiness is boring as hell. Grow up and learn to have an intell..."Bye
@Iftekhar Alam: Good observation on 50 Shades of Twatlight, since it IS built on the infrastructure of Twatlight. She wrote it as fan fiction and when the Big Publisher picked it up they did enough edits to stay out of copyright infringement territory. And wow . . . Shannon reads YouTube comments?
Renee wrote: "@Iftekhar Alam: Good observation on 50 Shades of Twatlight, since it IS built on the infrastructure of Twatlight. She wrote it as fan fiction and when the Big Publisher picked it up they did enoug..."Whaaaat? You mean, it's not a real book? Well I never.
Kallie wrote: "Renee wrote: "@Iftekhar Alam: Good observation on 50 Shades of Twatlight, since it IS built on the infrastructure of Twatlight. She wrote it as fan fiction and when the Big Publisher picked it up ..."
Define " real book" Curious.
Define " real book" Curious.
I should have said novel. IMO, a novel is a writer's exclusive creation; no one else could have written that novel. There are also real books in which people compile and organize information to educate, but they didn't create the information. Other categories of real books no doubt exist. Mainly I exclude products born of marketing strategies, assembled with components aimed at a certain reading market. I suppose that can include some genre fiction, depending on how much or how little creative inspiration plays a part.
Kallie wrote: "I should have said novel. IMO, a novel is a writer's exclusive creation; no one else could have written that novel. There are also real books in which people compile and organize information to e..."Before I respond in more depth, I have to ask, do you have any experience with reading "fan-fiction"?
Actually, I will expand this question to anyone and everyone in the discussion....have you actually read all of the works that you are claiming to be overrated or underrated?
I'm sure there's much more bottled up that never comes out. It usually is.
I imagine there is good and bad fan fiction. But I would have to be interested in the books that inspired them. Harry Potter didn't hold my interest and there are a lot of books I really want to read so I'm not likely to spend time on those that don't appeal to me.
Kallie wrote: "I imagine there is good and bad fan fiction. But I would have to be interested in the books that inspired them. Harry Potter didn't hold my interest and there are a lot of books I really want to ..."
Yes I agree. ALthough ( and shoot me) I preferred Fifty Shades to Harry Potter. Fifty shades is an easy read romance, fluff, comforting like chocolate, Harry Potter started to bore me after 3 books, I never finished the series, but I did finish all 3 Fifty Shades books - unlike Harry Potter, those made me curious about " what's next", ANd no, it was not great ( or maybe any) literature, but I don't care.I have read worse things.
Yes I agree. ALthough ( and shoot me) I preferred Fifty Shades to Harry Potter. Fifty shades is an easy read romance, fluff, comforting like chocolate, Harry Potter started to bore me after 3 books, I never finished the series, but I did finish all 3 Fifty Shades books - unlike Harry Potter, those made me curious about " what's next", ANd no, it was not great ( or maybe any) literature, but I don't care.I have read worse things.
Edward wrote: "Mochaspresso wrote: "Kallie wrote: "I should have said novel. IMO, a novel is a writer's exclusive creation; no one else could have written that novel. There are also real books in which people ..."
WOW. I am going- do you realise that this is incoherent rambling that would get a psychiatrist interested?
WOW. I am going- do you realise that this is incoherent rambling that would get a psychiatrist interested?
i would twilight take that off the list. its not overrated because it was an international phoenomenon. it sold millions of copies.
Lucie wrote: "Fan fiction? What is that?"Fiction written by fans. Essentially, it's where fans of a particular work write alternative stories based on that work. It can take many different forms. Some of those forms include storyline continuations, stories retold from a different character's pov, setting the story in an alternate universe or time, Star Trek fans writing an alternate episode. Sherlock Holmes fans writing a new mystery and/or setting it in modern times. Pride and Prejudice has a ton of published and unpublished fan fiction.
I consider books like
to technically be a form of "fan-fiction" also. The term "fan-fiction" is fairly modern, but the practice has been around for a very long time. Now, whether the "fan fiction" features "good writing" is up to the reader, obviously. Some modern authors embrace the concept of their work being turned into fan ficiton while others adamantly oppose it (Anne Rice and George RR Martin come to mind.)
What prompted me to ask the question is the insinuation that what EL James did (...and has never made any attempts to deny or hide...) is somehow different than what other people have done before her and the insinuation that it is somehow not a "real book". Fifty Shades has it's flaws and I am more than happy to discuss them....but being a book that originally started as fan-fiction posted on the internet is not one of them, imo.
Edward wrote: "Mochaspresso wrote: "Kallie wrote: "I should have said novel. IMO, a novel is a writer's exclusive creation; no one else could have written that novel. There are also real books in which people ..."I wasn't asking if people have read everything. I was asking if they have actually read all of the books that they are mentioning in this discussion. In other words and for example, is someone writing off "The Hunger Games" as overrated because they actually read it along with some of the other popular contemporary dystopians or are they doing so because it's a popular book and they think that the market is currently flooded with too many "formulaic" dystopians?
Edward wrote: "It still seems a form of catch-22, as the reader may dislike something so much that they discontinue reading it in entirety. It seems the age old question, which requires everyone to delve into that they don't like in order to have a "valid" right to disdain it; a stupid prescription for unhappiness. It's fine to discontinue reading something if you don't like it. However, I do think that does affect the validity of "CERTAIN" criticisms about the book or series. I was always baffled by some goodreads poster's tendency to not finish the first book in a series, yet still feel empowered enough and informed enough to definitively tell others who have actually completed it why what they think of it is "right".
Mochaspresso wrote: " I was asking if they have actually read all of the books that they are mentioning in this discussion"I can only speak for myself of course, but I don't think I've ever called a book "overrated" without having read at least large parts of it. Are you implying that many people do it?
I generally agree that actually reading the entire book/series would make you more qualified to criticise it, but I don't think you have to read 1000++ pages of The Hunger Games trilogy in order to call it overrated. I read around 250 pages before putting it away, but I don't feel that I'm on shaky ground when I call it overrated. Just as I wouldn't really judge anyone for calling In Search of Lost Time overrated after having read 300 pages of Swann's Way.
@ Lisapathy...you said twilight wasn't overrated because millions of people read it and enjoyed it. Millions if people read and enjoyed Mein Kamf ( spelling?) and that doesn't make it great literature either.
Paul Martin wrote: "Mochaspresso wrote: " I was asking if they have actually read all of the books that they are mentioning in this discussion"
I can only speak for myself of course, but I don't think I've ever call..."
Yes, I think one can produce an opinion after reading 200 pages....
I can only speak for myself of course, but I don't think I've ever call..."
Yes, I think one can produce an opinion after reading 200 pages....
Edward wrote: "Renee wrote: "Repressed?"Yes. If I really let it fly the government psychs would be at the door."
You need to cool it Edward. It really isn´t interesting.
So much flatulence on the internet, Edward. Go see a doctor about your problem.
Geoffrey wrote: "So much flatulence on the internet, Edward. Go see a doctor about your problem."
yes, I am a doctor and I agree
yes, I am a doctor and I agree
Block and ignore, please!! This has been rehashed over and over again! The more we engage, the more he posts.
Lord have mercy.
Lucie wrote: "Kallie wrote: "I imagine there is good and bad fan fiction. But I would have to be interested in the books that inspired them. Harry Potter didn't hold my interest and there are a lot of books I ..."I'm not a Harry Potter fan either. I've tried to get through the series a few times, but could never manage to want to finish. I enjoyed Fifty Shades more too, but there is no telling how much time and place had to do with this. I read Fifty Shades while away on vacation. My mindset was different and so were my reading needs at that specific moment in time. I also knew what it was going in and I didn't have high expectations beyond that.
Paul Martin wrote: "I can only speak for myself of course, but I don't think I've ever called a book "overrated" without having read at least large parts of it. Are you implying that many people do it?I generally agree that actually reading the entire book/series would make you more qualified to criticise it, but I don't think you have to read 1000++ pages of The Hunger Games trilogy in order to call it overrated. I read around 250 pages before putting it away, but I don't feel that I'm on shaky ground when I call it overrated. Just as I wouldn't really judge anyone for calling In Search of Lost Time overrated after having read 300 pages of Swann's Way.
I think some people do and that's why I asked. I also think that if there are 20 ya dystopians on the market and you've only attempted to read two and didn't even finish those, just how informed is the criticism that it's as formulaic as all of the other dystopians? It may or may not be, but I do give more weight to the opinion of someone who has at least read several of them.
To address the second part of your post, I think it depends on your reason for calling it overrated in the first place. For example, if you say that a book is overrated because of an issue in the story that isn't resolved until the end of the series, (hypothetical example.....not liking a character in Book 1, yet not realizing that the character goes through an arc or change in Books 2 and 3), I don't think it's fair for you to try to condescendingly argue specific points about that character with someone who has actually read the entire series. You don't truly have the most thorough understanding of that character if you haven't read the entire series.
Fan fiction: No, there's nothing inherently wrong in it, and it probably encourages new writers to test themselves and develop their skills.Where I have a problem with it is when it gets passed off as original works. In the case of E.L. James I don't blame her for that. She's been straightforward about it. The publisher who picked it up, oversaw the edits, etc., and published it as an "original work"— now there's where the dishonesty kicked in.
Renee wrote: "Fan fiction: No, there's nothing inherently wrong in it, and it probably encourages new writers to test themselves and develop their skills.Where I have a problem with it is when it gets passed o..."
How did the publisher pass it off as an original work?
...playing devil's advocate for a moment because I thought the fact that it was originally Twilight fan fiction was common knowledge. :)
Sorry for changing the subject....again... but my local barnes and noble has a copy of
among the bargain books for $7.98. Anyone familiar? Is it a good biography for Salinger? Given how private he was, is there actually a good biography for Salinger available?
Mochaspresso wrote: "Renee wrote: "Fan fiction: No, there's nothing inherently wrong in it, and it probably encourages new writers to test themselves and develop their skills.Where I have a problem with it is when it..."
Oddly, for quite awhile after it hit big, there were still an awful lot of people who didn't know of the Grey's origins.
Editing, not openly acknowledging it and . . . not cutting Meyer at least a small percentage of the deal.
Essentially, the names were changed to protect the guilty (publishing) from having to pay up.
Karen wrote: "Block and ignore, please!! This has been rehashed over and over again! The more we engage, the more he posts."I agree.
Mochaspresso wrote: " Anyone familiar? Is it a good biography for..."I'd say it's the best there is right now. I haven't read it, but it's the source of the documentary on Salinger that was on American Masters, and that was very well done.
And realize when I say it's the best there is, we don't have a lot to compare it against...Hamilton's book, Joyce Maynard's...so proceed with caution, but I was impressed by the documentary.
Mochaspresso wrote: "Sorry for changing the subject....again... but my local barnes and noble has a copy of among the bargain books for $7.98. Anyone familiar? Is it a good biography for..."I read that it isn't a real biography but basically the script for the PBS documentary. The documentary, which I viewed twice, was heavily skewed by Joyce Maynard's ranting, which is hyped to revive flagging sales of her "tell-all" memoir. She made herself available when no one else would, therefore the director/producer took advantage of it rather than staying objective.
I wrote a partial rebuttal to Maynard here: http://jdsalinger-heying.blogspot.com... and plan writing more after I've struggled through her memoir.
Maynard has thoroughly discredited herself by shamelessly exploiting Salinger's success and his emotional vulnerability.
I hope Salinger's soon to be published new novels will shut her up, but do not have high expectations. She is too mercenary.
Ah, Monty, I don't envy you, slogging through Maynard.Fanne Fox was infinitely more interesting. And honest.
Renee wrote: "Ah, Monty, I don't envy you, slogging through Maynard. Fanne Fox was infinitely more interesting. And honest."You made me laugh out loud.
For you Gen-Xers and Millennials, Fanne Foxe is a stripper who seduced Congressman Wilbur Mills, former chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee in the '70s. Foxe famously dived in a DC tidal basin to avoid being seen with Mills, whose car the police had pulled over for a violation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanne_Foxe
It says something when a stripper will dive into the water to avoid being seen with a politician . . .
Renee wrote: "It says something when a stripper will dive into the water to avoid being seen with a politician . . ."You keep cracking me up.
I am pretty sure she was quite intoxicated and later heavily rewarded. Even so..., for a politician?
And one named "Wilbur," no less.I keep hearing Mr. Ed . . . "Willl-buuurrrr . . ."
Inside my head's a strange place. No wonder I write the weird stuff I do. O_o
Renee wrote: "And one named "Wilbur," no less.I keep hearing Mr. Ed . . . "Willl-buuurrrr . . ."
Inside my head's a strange place. No wonder I write the weird stuff I do. O_o"
Hah! I'm going to bed and dream about strippers and talking hobby horses.
Hobby horse . . . Now there's a different sort of pole . . .
Renee wrote: "Hobby horse . . . Now there's a different sort of pole . . ."Poll.
A stripper poll? :DYou know, we might have a better government if we elected strippers.
It would do a helluva lot for transparency.
We should take a poll.
(a horse is a horse, of course, of course, and no one can talk to a horse, of course . . .)
Renee wrote: "A stripper poll? :DYou know, we might have a better government if we elected strippers.
It would do a helluva lot for transparency.
We should take a poll.
(a horse is a horse, of course, of c..."
Strippers use poles to pry money from our pockets, honestly. Politicians use polls for the same purpose, dishonestly.
(Now I can't get Mr. Ed out of my head. See what you've done. I'm taking a pill.)
Maynard is a small part of that documentary. Her perspective is important and has to be included in a look at Salinger. Take it for what it's worth and move on. The documentary is full of other material and presents info on Salinger I've never seen elsewhere. Maybe you (Mocha) should view it before you go on to read the book. Maybe viewing it would be enough.
Mochaspresso wrote: " I also think that if there are 20 ya dystopians on the market and you've only attempted to read two and didn't even finish those, just how informed is the criticism that it's as formulaic as all of the other dystopians?"I don't disagree. The criticism would have to be about the book itself, not of the current trend.
You don't truly have the most thorough understanding of that character if you haven't read the entire series.
True. I was not trying to say that a thorough understanding of a character can be acquired by reading the first half of one book in a trilogy. I'm just saying that I personally don't think it's necessary to read the entire thing in order to call it overrated. Maybe not the best analogy in the world, but you don't have to eat en entire bowl of olives just to determine that you don't like the taste.
Your comment about Harry Potter is a good example. Of course the characters change from book one to seven, but I'd say that you are fully qualified to say that you didn't think it was all that it's made out to be, even if you've only read the first, say, two books.
Paul Martin wrote: "Mochaspresso wrote: " I also think that if there are 20 ya dystopians on the market and you've only attempted to read two and didn't even finish those, just how informed is the criticism that it's..."
Oh Paul, it is nice to read a moderate sensible comment
Oh Paul, it is nice to read a moderate sensible comment
Monty J wrote: "Strippers use poles to pry money from our pockets, honestly. ...."Yes, they have such pleasant prosperous lives at the expense of the poor helpless porn addicts!
all discussions on this book
|
post a new topic
High Fidelity (other topics)
Less Than Zero (other topics)
Adam Bede (other topics)
The Scarlet Letter (other topics)
More...
George R.R. Martin (other topics)
Allan Bloom (other topics)
Richard Dawkins (other topics)
Richard Dawkins (other topics)
More...
Books mentioned in this topic
War and Peace (other topics)High Fidelity (other topics)
Less Than Zero (other topics)
Adam Bede (other topics)
The Scarlet Letter (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Leo Tolstoy (other topics)George R.R. Martin (other topics)
Allan Bloom (other topics)
Richard Dawkins (other topics)
Richard Dawkins (other topics)
More...
I have a MacBook Pro and an iPad Air. Love them but the biggest issue that I have with them both is how apple tries to force you to exist solely in their ecosystem. I hate that they are not easily upgradable or expandable. My ipad would be perfect if it only had expandable memory.