The Catcher in the Rye
discussion
The Most Overrated Books
Ahmed wrote: "The Catcher in the Rye, can some one tell me to burn it, thanks."You didn't say, "mother may I."
It's your book; do whatever you like to it. I think it's safe to say that you are more interested in expressing how much you dislike CiTR than getting permission to burn/shred/compost it or whatever. But since you posted . . . for myself, any work of art that causes such a strong reaction is worth thinking about. I still feel queasy remembering scenes in 'Sanctuary,' but also intrigued enough to question that feeling.
Maria wrote: "Which books do you think are overrated? Here's a quick sampling from various internet sites that recommend skipping these:
The Catcher in the Rye
Moby Dick
The Great Gatsby
Waiting for Godot
The..."
AND HERE WE GO AGAIN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Here ya go, Karen ;-)
Renee wrote: "Here ya go, Karen ;-)Oh that's a good one!!
This comes to mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXSGo...No, wait, this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dscfe...
Renee wrote: "This comes to mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXSGo...No, wait, this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dscfe..."
Thanks, Renee. Those were fun to watch. I've always liked Space Oddity and Bowie's 'Existential Man in Space' sensibility. (Have you seen 'The Man Who Fell to Earth' by Nicholas Roeg?)
And I had never heard Monster Magnet before (witty). The lead singer for MM resembles an ex-friend's ex-, who painted race cars, was always stoned on meth, and became very irritated with those of us who preferred hallucinogens hanging out in his living room "Buncha f___ing freaks." (It's only fair to say he expressed that in a reluctantly fond tone.) I've no idea where any of those people are now, or what they are doing, but we had some interesting times.
wanted to add tess of d'ubervilles on here
Petergiaquinta wrote: "What Kallie is saying makes sense, and those of us who are older are proof of it. We grew up reading; we were educated with an old-fashioned "liberal arts" approach, if you want to call it that, ta..."Bravo, Peter!
I think we should re-name "Liberal Arts." We've let cretins with agendas taint the word "liberal" beyond recognition. "Cognitive Arts."
Or, if you want to keep the same initials, "Lucid Arts."
How about Lucid, Mind-Expanding Arts? (Or is that too Sixties and old fartish?)
Kallie wrote: "How about Lucid, Mind-Expanding Arts? (Or is that too Sixties and old fartish?)"Maybe with a co-major in Pharmaceutical? :D
But one of the cretins would rearrange it, "Lucid Arts of Mind Expansion" and you'd wind up with a LAME degree . . .
Gotta stay ahead of those cretins. ;-)
I'd add "Beloved" to the list,I thought the Divinci code,was fun to read.
One thing I will have to give The DaVinci Code — it made people think and question. That's not a bad thing, and it is something that most of us require of literature.
Keith wrote: "I'd add "Beloved" to the list,I thought the Divinci code,was fun to read."I agree about "Beloved". But I read it so long ago that perhaps I need to revisit it.
Ah, thanks, Elyse :-)Your comment made me revisit reading DaVinci and some of the conversations I had. I actually read it after a good friend, who rarely reads anything, talked about it and piqued my interest and then I noticed that it was creating questions and original thought amongst those who read it.
Mochaspresso wrote: "I agree about "Beloved". But I read it so long ago that perhaps I need to revisit it."I'd encourage a revisit. Morrison didn't win the Nobel prize by accident!
Elyse wrote: "Renee: you are So kind, so appropriate, so sweet to new people who come in to this thread! Back to reading my novel, have fun kids. Lol"Agree.
Ah, thanks you two <3
Edward wrote: "How'd you do in fantasy football this weekend?"I don't actually play...it's a spectator sport for me since just about everyone I know is involved in it. But in the real world of football, Chicago played a gutsy second half last night, and even if they lose every game for the rest of the season it will be worth it to have ruined the San Francisco opener at their shiny new stadium. The look on Kaepernick's face last night was priceless.
As for the "liberal arts thread," I don't think anyone mentioned its role in passing along our culture. One of my teachers used to talk a lot about people in a country and in the world needing to "be on the same page," although that phrase was after his time. In this group, most of us can respond to what's posted by other members because of what was taught us in school and the books we have read since. We are able to exchange ideas on them because we draw from a pool of knowledge that we learned in school. We studied about "the roaring 20s" in history, but we learned how it worked in The Great Gatsby. We learned about adolescent angst from TCIR, and we learned what the great depression felt like in The Grapes of Wrath . I suspect the motivation for most of us to continue reading in the "Literature" genre is because we've heard some of the books referred to in other books, speeches and essays and we feel a need to get the literary references we have missed. We know the value of these classics because of what we have learned from the ones we have already read. We may disagree, or not like the book especially, but we like exercising our grey cells.
It is very difficult to transfer culture from one generation to another if we don't have stories. Even the most primitive tribes pass down their culture.
I remember back in the "tech age" of the 70s and 80s" colleges began skipping the first two years of liberal arts and just got right into their major. This was especially true of the technical careers. That went on for about 10 years and then the big companies began to complain. My ex husband worked for an ITT Europe company and it became a crisis. They had people from the US dealing with other countries and they had no idea of the social structures, the histories and the culture...not only for the country they were going to but of our own country. They were actually setting up etiquette classes for their staff. They also had employees who couldn't write reports or even memos that were succinct or even understandable. Who wants to get a memo written by the people who write computer manuals or "terms of agreements"?
This is a great group because we can exchange well thought out ideas and that's because most of us are well-read. Periodically, we get people on who hate TCIR and most of the other classics on the list. When we respond, we generally asked the person to say why they dislike the book. Sometimes we suspect some of these people are trolls because of the ruckus they stir up. We're saying, "Support your ideas. Say what it is that you disagree with." They say the book is "crap" and their evaluation of the book is just as valid as anyone's. We come back with why we think the book has value and we respond to any comments, and they think we are cramming the book down their their throat. They have a right to their opinion, but it's not worth anything to anyone else without supporting and well thought out facts.
The point is that the liberal arts are important for the the knowledge and culture they pass on to us and the way they train our minds and enrich out experiences. They teach us how to think, and as this election approaches, I am constantly reminded how much we need that in order to pull apart the simplistic and misleading campaign advertisements and speeches.
Thanks, those were commonsense verities, Anne Hawn.
Well said Anne Hawne
Anne Hawn wrote: "point is that the liberal arts are important for what the knowledge and culture they pass on to us and the way they train our minds and enrich out experiences. They teach us how to think, and as this election approaches, I am constantly reminded how much we need that in order to pull apart the simplistic and misleading campaign advertisements and speeches. ..."I think this was very well put! A lot of times we get a liberal education right here because we have people from all over the world. I think it is interesting that there were problems with the IT dept. I know people who have been hire to write technical manuals for the reasons that you have given. Some people are really wired to deal with complicated problems but don't need words to figure them out. Others have the words. I think people have different gifts.
As far as the Catcher being about teenage angst I think this is a bias. I think after I have brought up at least 20 different areas where the Catcher is an allegory about WW2 I think we should stop only discussing this book in such a narrow way. Most of the time just looking at it as teenage angst just makes the book more irrelevant rather than bridging the gap to understanding Salinger's true intent. If we have to stick with the "official version" then I question the value of a liberal art education; and whether it will help people discern the issues you find significant in this next election.
Please look at my discussion https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...
This is about The Return of the Native referenced in TCITR.
Cosmic wrote: "Anne Hawn wrote: "point is that the liberal arts are important for what the knowledge and culture they pass on to us and the way they train our minds and enrich out experiences. They teach us how t..."As I see it, you are narrowing the discussion with your insistence on reducing the book to little bits of code for this and that reference to WWII. TCiTR evokes much more through Holden's responses to his world, and his narrative voice.
Cosmic wrote: "I think after I have brought up at least 28 different areas where the Catcher is an allegory about WW2 I think we should stop only discussing this book in such a narrow way."Twenty-nine, if you include duct tape, developed during WWII.
Edward wrote: "Can't it be both? Or even a third not yet discovered? "Sure. I just get really fed up with comments like the one below, and the negative, presumptuous implications insinuated as absolute truth only idiots would not recognize, though there is offered with such comments no argument, real evidence, or room for the least bit of contrary discussion:
"Most of the time just looking at it as teenage angst just makes the book more irrelevant rather than bridging the gap to understanding Salinger's true intent. If we have to stick with the "official version" then I question the value of a liberal art education; and whether it will help people discern the issues you find significant in this next election."
This seems to me so all-knowing and condescending in tone, I don't feel invited to make a real response.
Edward wrote: "Can't it be both? Or even a third not yet discovered? ..."Yes of course! I think it could have more than one interpretation. That is the beauty of using allusions. There is more breathe and scope in an allusion. But it is always labeling TCITR as "teenage angst" that stamps the book with this label. "Look no further and end of discussion." That is very disappointing when Anne wrote a wonderful post on learning through liberal arts. It is disappointing because it insults the intelligence of the reader. The reader cannot understand why Holden is looking for and asking about the ducks at Central Park South and not all ducks or all migratory birds....when he clearly knows when we get to the Natural Science Museum that birds migrate. Holden is not ignorant. We miss a lot of the puns like "shooting the bull" or "short stories" and allusions when he talks about "Radio City Music Hall" killing him and making him depressed. I think the "teenage angst" is the weaker interpretation. Any other classic they would be telling us to look up these allusions, but with this one just "chalk up anything that doesn't make sense to "teenage angst or depression." Books should be discussed not labeled. This one is not so cut and dry or there would not be anything to discover or write about. It insults the author to not give his work full credit. It would be like interpreting The Asop for Children literally, when the greater meaning is in the lesson that is interpreted.
Kallie darling, you may not like my approach. And it may not be sweet enough to your taste. Forgive me. I just don't feel like being "phoney".
Anne Hawn wrote: "As for the "liberal arts thread," I don't think anyone mentioned its role in passing along our culture. One of my teachers used to talk a lot about people in a country and in the world needing to ..."Well, this is the post I most admire today and one that does invite response. It's not sweet, nor is it darling. Anne articulately and clearly conveys a lot of sound thought on the value of a liberal arts education.
Michael wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "I think after I have brought up at least 28 different areas where the Catcher is an allegory about WW2 I think we should stop only discussing this book in such a narrow way."Twenty..."
I feel a sense of de-ja-vu !!!!! We've all been here before to witness the same things being said over and over again, how delightful!! I'm so glad I have somewhere else to go now.
Karen wrote: "Michael wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "I think after I have brought up at least 28 different areas where the Catcher is an allegory about WW2 I think we should stop only discussing this book in such a narr..."Wait a minute...28 different areas? There are 28 Hebrew characters in Genesis 1:1. If we use the rabbinical study of Gematria to unlock the mystery of 28, it equals "Eden," and Joni Mitchell says we got to get back to the garden, but when Crosby sang at Yasgur's farm, he says he met a child of God who was walking along a road, and so it's obvious that in TCITR when Holden helps the little girl with her roller skates in the park she must be stardust...she must be golden...and because that rhymes with Holden, he must be caught in a devil's bargain.
It's all so clear, bitches!!!
Why did I never see any of this before?????????????
MOAR CAPITALS FOR EMPHASIS and some italics to help clarify the essentialosities...AND A FEW MOAR CAPITALS, JUST IN CASE YOU AREN'T PAYING ATTENTION TO ME! PAY ATTENTION, DAMMIT!!!!!!!!! No, I really mean it.
Petergiaquinta wrote: "Karen wrote: "Michael wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "I think after I have brought up at least 28 different areas where the Catcher is an allegory about WW2 I think we should stop only discussing this book ..."You're third eye opens wide my fwend.
Well, if it get's Edward's endorsement, it MUST be true !!! When do we learn the secret handshake? Does the internet know about this?
I would say Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov. I am in shock that people find it to be a great classic. I found it disturbing!!
Cynthia wrote: "I would say Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov. I am in shock that people find it to be a great classic. I found it disturbing!!"...speechless...
Edward wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Well, if it get's Edward's endorsement, it MUST be true !!! When do we learn the secret handshake? Does the internet know about this?"Watch Obama."
Ouch! ...as in laugh until it hurts...with a bit of nagging shame...
Petergiaquinta wrote: "Karen wrote: "Michael wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "I think after I have brought up at least 28 different areas where the Catcher is an allegory about WW2 I think we should stop only discussing this book ..."ROTFLOL!!!!!!!!!
THIS MADE MY DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT REALLY DID!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'M SO HAPPY NOW !!!!!!
Oh, why can't I be this quick witted? Life is so unfair!
Cynthia wrote: "I would say Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov. I am in shock that people find it to be a great classic. I found it disturbing!!"I think the only way to read Lolita is to constantly say "unreliable narrator" to yourself over and over and over again as you are reading.
Leslie wrote: "Cynthia wrote: "I would say Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov. I am in shock that people find it to be a great classic. I found it disturbing!!"...speechless..."
doubly speechless.
Petergiaquinta wrote: "It's all so clear, bitches!!!Why did I never see any of this before?????????????
"
ROTFLMAO. First time I ever typed that. Thanks Leslie and Peter.
Karen wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Cynthia wrote: "I would say Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov. I am in shock that people find it to be a great classic. I found it disturbing!!"...speechless..."
doubly speechless."
Yeah, if anything I would consider Lolita to be generally under-rated because the content is such a sticking point with so many. I wouldn't suggest that they "don't know how to read it"...it's a touchy subject matter that just can't be overcome by some...but over-rated? ...I feel like someone just kicked my puppy...
i>Leslie wrote: "Yeah, if anything I would consider Lolita to be generally under-rated because the content is such a sticking point with so many. I wouldn't suggest that they "don't know how to read it"...it's a touchy subject matter that just can't be overcome by some...but over-rated? ...I feel like someone just kicked my puppy... "I'm reading it now. And enjoying it immensely. I understand that some people can't overcome the subject matter however. At one point years ago I had to put it down, but I picked it up again, knowing what a masterful piece of literature it was, I was able to be objective. Twenty five years later I am reading it again and I'm sure I will see it differently- again. The joys of re-reading.
Karen wrote: "i>Leslie wrote: "Yeah, if anything I would consider Lolita to be generally under-rated because the content is such a sticking point with so many. I wouldn't suggest that they "don't know how to rea..."I find the content in Gone with the Wind more disturbing, and the story/writing more over-rated, than Lolita...but to each their own. I couldn't finish GwtW, it disgusted me.
Cynthia wrote: "I would say Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov. I am in shock that people find it to be a great classic. I found it disturbing!!"Disturbing is good, in my experience. Like all emotionally and intellectually lazy humans, I don't get anywhere interesting without some disturbance to my psychic presumptions about good/bad, right/wrong, and (I will go further and say) insult to my comfort zone is really a plus. There is a big caveat in there though. The cause of disturbance has to expand rather than contract my world and vision. And my feelings and intellect (I am still not sure that there is a difference) have to be active toward the disturbance. It may take a while, but that has to happen.
Edward wrote: "Cosmic, hi. You are the only one who lets me speak to you. ...."I have enjoyed your insight when you have shared it.
Lately I have been having a great discussion about Fathers and Sons at the DEAD WRITERS SOCIETY book group. You might enjoy a little nihilism. This is the first time I have read this book. It is very interesting in light of what we know will eventually happen in Russia. This book influenced Tolstoy and Fyodor Dostoyevsky. So if you would like to join me I will see you there.
A buddy of mine just told me that's Stills singing about goin' down to Yasgur's farm...I'm such a loser, sigh...
Petergiaquinta wrote: "A buddy of mine just told me that's Stills singing about goin' down to Yasgur's farm...I'm such a loser, sigh..."Ah, just think about all the people who read Crosby, and Yasgur's farm and had to google both ;-)
And you have just added another arm to the Lemean Hydra of CitR theories.
Are you going to go for the Augean stables next?
I was hoping for some response to how people in this group see a liberal arts education. I'm sorry it got hijacked by the phrase "teen aged angst." As you can see the post was long to begin with and when I got to specific titles I just mentioned a few that we had discussed. Someone made some excellent points about The Grapes of Wrath, and that discussion didn't really develop. We had great discussions on Gatsby and there were a number of interpretations that disagreed, but were all well thought out and valid. That's been one of my favorite threads because of the quality of the exchange...people citing references and quotes and generally making a case for their interpretation. The best part was that many of us gained insight into other aspects of the book and at the very least agreed to disagree.
I listed three books in my last post that I felt gave us an exposure to the elements of our common culture, but there are so many more. I was looking for others to post about books they felt were particularly valuable. I used The Grapes of Wrath as one because I was thinking about how we "lived" the life of the Joads through literature and saw what it felt like to have no options that were palatable and yet to come to terms with the depression because they chose to find a way. I think the last scene where the daughter nurses the starving man is one of the most powerful scenes in literature. They were totally beaten down, but they still retained their humanity.
In choosing "Grapes" I was thinking about how that book bespoke of every human tragedy where people have no palatable options. It helps in our understanding of what people in Syria, Iran, Jerusalem or the Sudan feel. It helps me to understand how people can become so desperate that they respond to their situation with war, atrocities and suicide bombing. It makes wonder if there is a way to help these people before they become that way. Some may be just plain evil, but it helps me see many of the "animals" as the damaged but hate filled human beings that they have become, even if I abhor them. It also helps me see the necessity of at least trying to make sure that the kids that are growing up in these refugee camps do not become the next generation of suicide bombers and it makes me wonder what we in the US need to do to keep some of our own citizens from joining them.
Literature should always help us get into the mind of people just like us, or or sometimes radically different. It teaches us about the folly of war and the concept of a just war. It shows us what happens when people go to war and what happens when they refuse to go to war until it is too late. Our government is deciding whether to go into Syria and if ground troops must be used. A Tale of Two Cities has a lot of food for thought right now.
There is so much we could discuss if we don't get hijacked.
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Nope.