The Catcher in the Rye
discussion
The Most Overrated Books
I am glad that The Catcher In The Rye has generated so much discussion around WW2 and what was going on there. I know that in trying to understand the Catcher In The Rye I have been trying to understand the author. Salinger served in WW2 as many of you know. I believe that Salinger did write about WW2.I thought about his phrase madman stuff. In looking for something about madman stuff I found the movie Hitler's Madman. It is interesting how many times the word catch and caught is found in the poem about Ladice. If you have never heard of Ladice here is a link to wiki
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice
If you would like to discuss this here is what I wrote about it:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Kallie wrote: "Oh yeah; they were stealth masters who terrorized the Southwest and Northern Mexico with their raids. And the Comanches terrorized them. I don't think either group had much use for books back then. This was one helluva dangerous place."So, we're back to combat DUKWs?
What about the killer bees? Don´t they have a place in the story?
Geoffrey wrote: "What about the killer bees? Don´t they have a place in the story?"Do you mean the SeaBees?
Kallie wrote: "as ever, I enter in about ducks. Our ducks come from "The Prairie Pothole Region" also called "the duck factory" (weird).http://www.ducks.org/new-mexico/new-m...
So, this migratory path looked suspiciously familiar to me, a student of Southwest studies, and sure enough! It is nearly the exact same migratory route taken by the Athapaskans (later to split into various Apache tribes and the Navajo):
http://www.urbannavajo.org/2013/03/ju...
And so . . . I don't know what that signifies. What a dud...."
Probably not the ducks that Holden was looking for or that Salinger was writing about. Holden was only interested in the ducks that were in Central Park South.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centra... This is where the Grand Army Plaza is located. The ducks probably looked like http://www.oldmagazinearticles.com/WW...
These were the ducks that flew north not south as the ones in the natural history museum.
This madman stuff happened around Christmas. This is when the US entered WW2 and when Hitler declaed war on us.
Salinger advised other writers to have a clear purpose. Having an honorable purpose is much better than being motivated by purely materialistic desires. Put more simply if you have a message for people, some that will actually help them. "Sooner or later you need to need to soberly consider whether what you write is serving any purpose but to serve your ego,"he told her. Maynard 1998:139. This is from the bookWrite Like the Masters: Emulating the Best of Hemingway, Faulkner, Salinger, and Others
I think that Salinger was writing about WW2. I believe he had a passion to tell what he knew but to write it in a way that would not get too much notice from the powers that be. I find his writing inspiring and amazing.
Cosmic wrote: "Was Salinger in Normandy? Was both Salinger and these ducks in WW2."(Shakes head in disbelief.) It's hopeless. You're grasping at straws in an effort to support a weak position, however intriguing.
Renee wrote: "Oh, GODS! Footie . . . I got a proposition from a dude on another site wanting to sleep at the foot of my bed and lick my feet!To keep it on-topic, that sort of thing is SO over-rated."
Haha, you should tell us more about this, Renee.
Renee wrote: "Oh, GODS! Footie . . . I got a proposition from a dude on another site wanting to sleep at the foot of my bed and lick my feet!To keep it on-topic, that sort of thing is SO over-rated."
Paul Martin wrote; Haha, you should tell us more about this, Renee
Yes, and does it involve duct tape?
Petergiaquinta wrote: "But wait, Kallie! Old Spencer has a Navajo blanket...I think you're on to something here!"Of course! I forgot about the Eye Dazzlers! No doubt that was the kind Spencer owned.
Karen wrote: "Renee wrote: "Oh, GODS! Footie . . . I got a proposition from a dude on another site wanting to sleep at the foot of my bed and lick my feet!To keep it on-topic, that sort of thing is SO over-rat..."
No, no duct tape involved, but my rebuff involved Kharma. (her pic is on my profile, and yes, Kharma's a bitch) :D
Renee wrote: "Karen wrote: "Renee wrote: "Oh, GODS! Footie . . . I got a proposition from a dude on another site wanting to sleep at the foot of my bed and lick my feet!To keep it on-topic, that sort of thing ..."
Oh a big dog!! Good to have!
It is possible to stretch to reach, impose and rationalize nearly any meaning, symbolism, or agenda onto a piece of literature.But it isn't possible to impose your personal vision on everyone else.
At some point the belaboring recalls Robin William's remark: "you can fool some of the people some of the time and jerk the rest off."
Edward wrote: "Could you also state "the only possible metaphor for Holden's transitional state?" Might it also be possible that Holden's transitional state may not be transitional at all, and reflects universal duality, lying and duplicity?"Of course anything is possible. But I tend to be sympathetic toward the struggling teenage students who, looking for ways to understand this complex work of literature, finds her way to this Goodreads thread.
Abstract interpretation, while interesting, tends to be highly individualistic and can be a huge barrier to less advanced readers, especially when not presented in a clear and straightforward fashion. The possibilities are endless. A line has to be drawn somewhere.
Monty J wrote: "Edward wrote: "Could you also state "the only possible metaphor for Holden's transitional state?" Might it also be possible that Holden's transitional state may not be transitional at all, and refl..."Yes! Analysis/close reading needs to take into consideration the author's scope and intent of the story. And the person doing the analysis/close reading needs to not use their analysis as some measure of their and others intellect, "oh you just don't get it," "you lack imagination," "you are just sheep following the herd, playing 'the game'". That's insulting, ineffective, and inaccurate.
Author writes, "He was wearing a green hat." As soon as someone says "Oh, I found out the author lived next door to a man named Green, and his ancestors were prominent players in the Boxer Rebellion"...get it...Green hat..Boxer Rebellion...well top hats were made in China...so...obviously, the author is alluding the conflict with China... This is the book: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7... See for yourself!!!
On the other hand there are definitely times when such conjecture is necessary for a correct interpretation. I recall reviewing A MAN OF PROPERTY or one of the other books in the author's series (Galsworthy, right?) and there was a passage in which the architect has sex with the married woman in the woods. The author's only hint that the act was consummated as to state there was a cuckoo in the tree above. Cuckoo=cuckold, get it. None of the students got it and the teach pointed it out to us.
Yes, Geoffrey, but that one's not much of a stretch, obvious if you've a passing acquaintance with Chaucer, Shakespeare . . . There are so many reasons for those root-classics to be taught! Life is so much richer for having known them.
Definitely not over-rated works!
Geoffrey wrote: "On the other hand there are definitely times when such conjecture is necessary for a correct interpretation. I recall reviewing A MAN OF PROPERTY or one of the other books in the author's series (G..."Right...that fits within the scope of the story. The author is using the bird to = the act, so it is a great device, not a cuckoo one ;)
Yeah, well . . . I've an ex-SO, the one with multiple personalities and the nasty left hook, who got off on that. I found it rather insipid and groveling. Not that I ever told him so . . .
Edward wrote: "Never knew that Jung got into number-color corrolations. Kind of left him with the alchemy stuff. Maybe my loss. For me the number one is a blank screen; a totally useless display of sick self impo..."Jung wasn't into synesthesia, at least not to my knowledge. I was referring to the collective unconscious. He believed in our deepest psyche, we were all connected to archetypes that were common to all human beings. Well, that is only the tiniest part of what he thought, but that was what I was referring to.
Renee wrote: "Okay, Lorraine's replay about how she sees the number 1 is:"It's usually a translucent whitish, like beach quartz and can be tinted with the colors of any nearby numbers or letters."
Now how fr..."
That is amazing! I have certain colors that are hard to describe, like 9 is something between burnt sienna and mahogany, but none translucent or dependent on adjacent colors. I'll have to pay more attention.
Edward wrote: "I thought that the scenario was established as jest, not yet infinite. I wanted to play by the rules of the game, but I can't yet prove it. ..."The rules: http://insaner.com/calvinball/rules.html
Michael wrote: "My son hears each note of the scale as a different color & therefor has perfect pitch! When he was younger, each letter and number used to have its own color. Some consider synesthesia a disorder, ..."I just read about this kind of synesthesia. I'd love to have perfect pitch, so I wouldn't have to keep singing to myself to tune my guitar.
I did read that some people considered it a disorder, but usually I think of "disorder" as something that is lacking. It seems like something added that doesn't interfere with anything.
Kallie wrote: "Renee wrote: "Michael wrote: "My son hears each note of the scale as a different color & therefor has perfect pitch! When he was younger, each letter and number used to have its own color. Some con..."I have to agree. The fact that I see numbers in color doesn't add very much to my life...now the perfect pitch would, but to me it is a little like my cousin who can wiggle his ears.
Kallie wrote: "So, this migratory path looked suspiciously familiar to me, a student of Southwest studies, and sure enough! It is nearly the exact same migratory route taken by the Athapaskans (later to split into various Apache tribes and the Navajo):"
Kallie, do the Athapaskans relate to the Athabaskans in Alaska? The names are so close it would seem that they have to.
Geoffrey wrote: "The author's only hint that the act was consummated as to state there was a cuckoo in the tree above. Cuckoo=cuckold, get it. None of the students got it and the teach pointed it out to us. "Or, the Cuckoo lays its egg in another bird's nest and leaves it to the other bird to raise it.
Anne Hawn wrote: "Kallie wrote: "So, this migratory path looked suspiciously familiar to me, a student of Southwest studies, and sure enough! It is nearly the exact same migratory route taken by the Athapaskans (lat..."Yes, the spelling varies but I need to be consistent so thanks for the question. They migrated from Asia (or so evidence points) to Alaska to Canada to (in the case of the Navajos and Apaches) the Southwest and p.d. Northern Mexico.
I understood that Navajos are 7,000 years removed from present day Japanese, whereas most other MesoAmericans originated further north in Manchuria and eastern Siberia.
I think there are a number of Athapaskan (which includes Navajo and Apache) migration theories. Here is the one I have most often seen/read:http://tinyurl.com/ls78p2f
I haven't read the theory about an ancestral relationship to the Japanese. The Navajo I have seen resemble (to me) Koreans.
I apologize if this book has been mentioned already, but I don't really have the time to read through 73 pages of this thread to find out ;)
The CorrectionsWhile the prose is clever, the pacing and plotting is terrible. It's basically 95% prologue, and 5% extremely disappointing denouement.
James wrote: "I apologize if this book has been mentioned already, but I don't really have the time to read through 73 pages of this thread to find out ;) [book:The Corrections|..."I don't think in have seen it listed. It looked like it got a high rating though. Do you have a book you would suggest in that genre that perhaps isn't getting the notice it deserves or just to compare with Corrections?
If anything, Moby Dick is underrated these days. Barely anybody but literary students are willing to read it because of its length and a lot of people misunderstand the importance of some of the more expository chapters. Further, many people grossly simplify the book by thinking they understand too well its meaning--making it seem much more trite and monographic than it really is. Aside from that, I disagree that any of these books are 'overrated;' the first four on your list are especially good works (whether or not we over-analyze or over-teach Catcher in the Rye is a different question). Twilight is at least over-appreciated, but I don't think we can consider it overrated, as most people acknowledge the fact that as a work of literature it isn't very good.
Alexandra wrote: "If anything, Moby Dick is underrated these days. Barely anybody but literary students are willing to read it because of its length and a lot of people misunderstand the importance of some of the mo..."Could you briefly point out the chapters in Moby Dick that you feel give this work merit, that others may not have noticed. If it isn't to much trouble.
Well personally I think the two greatest chapters in the book are "The Sermon" and "The Whiteness of the Whale." The latter is the sort of expository chapter that I am talking about--one that is told apart from the narrative and yet is so important. But there is a chapter (I don't remember the name, it's been a while) where Melville details the different..breeds?...of whales--a chapter that sounds like it could be very boring but in fact is highly fascinating and, above all, beautifully written. So, for at least the reason that Moby Dick is essentially a prose-poem of epic proportions (can this be denied?), I don't think we can ever claim that is overrated.
Alexandra wrote: "...here Melville details the different..breeds?...of whales--a chapter that sounds like it could be very boring but in fact is highly fascinating and, above all, beautifully written."I loved that chapter! Melville's sense of humor and irony really came through.
Alexandra wrote: Barely anybody but literary students are willing to read it because of its length
That seems to be a problem with a lot of works of literature: too much background information, too many details of the physical surroundings, so the reader can get bored to death before getting to the heart of the matter.
To keep a reader's attention, it's important to get to the point early. One can always elaborate on the finer details later. Just my personal opinion.
Moby Dick begins with pages and pages and pages of etymology, cetology and a miscellany of whalestuff and whatnot. But that is the heart of the matter.Plot? Overrated!
I read Moby Dick when I was quite young and whale-obsessed so I devoured all of that miscellany of whalestuff and whatnot. I also was rooting for the whale.
It seemed more like a character study, with the purpose of the action and plot being subservient to that.
Renee wrote: "I read Moby Dick when I was quite young and whale-obsessed so I devoured all of that miscellany of whalestuff and whatnot. I also was rooting for the whale.
It seemed more like a character study..."
That's funny, Renee, me too! We read "In the Heart of the Sea" in my book group, the account of the sinking of the whale ship Essex that was the inspiration for Melville, and when it got to my turn to give my opinion of that book I said "I was sooooooo-oooo glad when the whale sank that ship!" Good book though. The only person as obsessed with the story of the white whale as Ahab, is Nathaniel Philbrick! So while I was reading Philbrick's book, I had to re-read Moby Dick. I just isn't "read" in high school.
Moby Dick was one of the choices for reading in one of my HS Lit classes, but since I'd already read it the teacher had me read one of the other books. I gave myself a break and took The Red Badge of Courage, another book that's under-read today, I think.
Petergiaquinta wrote: "Moby Dick begins with pages and pages and pages of etymology, cetology and a miscellany of whalestuff and whatnot. But that is the heart of the matter.Plot? Overrated!"
So many excellent books would not be nearly as good if the writer had focused on plot and narrative pace rather than character and language. Modern writing groups meant to help people write a bestseller tend to promote the plot/narrative ideal. I was in one of those. Painful.
Renee wrote: "Moby Dick was one of the choices for reading in one of my HS Lit classes, but since I'd already read it the teacher had me read one of the other books. I gave myself a break and took The Red Badg..."
Stephen Crane is definitely an underrated American writer.
Kallie wrote: "So many excellent books would not be nearly as good if the writer had focused on plot and narrative pace rather than character and language. Modern writing groups meant to help people write a bestseller tend to promote the plot/narrative ideal. I was in one of those. Painful."THANK YOU, Kallie.
How did you know I needed to hear those exact words right now? <3
Renee wrote: "Kallie wrote: "So many excellent books would not be nearly as good if the writer had focused on plot and narrative pace rather than character and language. Modern writing groups meant to help peopl..."Oh, Renee. If you are going through that in a writing group I feel for you. It's too bad that people can be so certain about matters of style and taste, they come up with formulas rather than ways to enable creativity. They may think they are writing a book but really, they are making a product. Just remember that.
Thanks again, Kallie. I'm at odds with at least a couple of the group on that. They can't comprehend that my first concern isn't, "who will buy this," but "is it right, is it as perfectly itself as I am able to render it?"
And that means bending and breaking some very old, staid rules. Rules I know backwards, forwards, inside out, upside down, right side up and under a microscope.
And yet, they're sucked into the characters and story, lol.
Renee wrote: "Thanks again, Kallie. I'm at odds with at least a couple of the group on that. They can't comprehend that my first concern isn't, "who will buy this," but "is it right, is it as perfectly itself..."
A good sign, that they are sucked into your characters and story, even if they are saying: but if you would just do this and this, etc. that you don't want to do.
Fascinating! I lived in Alaska, but I never realized that the Native Americans there were related to the Navajos and Apaches. I guess I could have figured it out, but I just never made the connection.
I think there are far too many overrated indie author books too. I like indie author books! I do. I just think it is just the work of marketing and street teams. I write a negative review and they immediately say I am bitter or jealous... when I do not even know the author!
Before I suggest anything, what is your opinion?
Before I suggest anything, what is your opinion?
Indie books are like anything other books: there are some gems, there are some semi-precious gems, and there is pure sludge. Just like with traditionally published books. And, like TPBs, much of it is in the marketing.
Responding like that to a negative review is unprofessional on the part of any author or publicist. Sometimes it is jealousy, bitterness, or just plain old snarkiness-by-nature, but you can't call someone out on it over a review of your work or work you're representing.
I see TP authors who get that kind of review and backlash, too. Mostly in the fantasy genre.
I used to do juried art & craft shows and I liken it to something we all heard way too much at them, "oh, I could do that better." Well, then, shut up, go home and do it.
But you can (almost) never say it out loud.
Kallie wrote: "Renee wrote: "Moby Dick was one of the choices for reading in one of my HS Lit classes, but since I'd already read it the teacher had me read one of the other books. I gave myself a break and too..."
I didn't particularly like Crane's writing style and found RED BADGE OF COURAGE a bit tedious. But it is the one book from my university days as the prof had a very interesting and bombastic thing to say about it.
I believe it's the beginning of a chapter in which the hero saves another's life, and there is an oblique allusion to his Christ-like qualities. The allusion was extremely subtle as if Crane did not wish to be heavy handed or was uncertain about the wisdom of the comparison.
One of the students had addressed the allusion to which the prof, renknown in the field for Stephen Crane studies having written some forewards for the author, read the paper in question to the class and then dourly made the comment that of the 20 reknown Crane scholars in the USA, his peers, only one of them would ever make the mistake the student had of making that page out in its Christlike allusion.
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Or they could have been conspiring with the ducks to cloud understanding of the book to be written by Salinger far in the fu..."
Oh yeah; they were stealth masters who terrorized the Southwest and Northern Mexico with their raids. And the Comanches terrorized them. I don't think either group had much use for books back then. This was one helluva dangerous place.