The Catcher in the Rye
discussion
The Most Overrated Books
Edward wrote: "Maybe other forms of art are more subliminal, only capable of speaking to the few who are fluent in the language of art, and further, subject to interpretations the artist had no intention of suggesting." Yes, I think one of the marvelous aspects of poems, short stories, and novels is that each reader creates something new in her encounter with the text, often something quite different from what the author consciously intended.
As Paul Auster says in his novel, Leviathan:
"A book is a mysterious object, I said, and once it floats out into the world, anything can happen."
Of course, I suppose the same could be said about a painting or musical composition.
Edward wrote: "Geoffrey wrote: "The greatest hindrance to self knowledge is the fear of admitting to ourselves we don't conform to the ideal. It's what I call the angel complex, ie. our need to see ourselves as b..."In this case I think he would be referring to the ideal of those we wish to be validated by. Or the ideal we perceive them to hold us in measure against. (not to answer for Geoffrey, of course, but this is just my interpretation of his very good observation/share).
In keeping with the theme of this thread I wonder if you have a list of "Overrated" Therapy Books? And in contrast what would you consider your favorite?
Renee wrote: "I've found the people I met who didn't like themselves were given that self-image by someone(s) who had a vested interest in keeping them under control. If you are self-aware enough to consciousl..."
Very good insight Renee! I totally agree with you.
Edward wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Karen wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Monty J wrote: "Edward wrote: "Is it possible to view one's self honestly-completely?"There are levels of self-knowledge At the deepest level, it would..."
Are you referring to my post about the question of sensory deprivation and whether there is a universal or base/primal method of expression/language? I agree with "no," but my question is more to stimulate the consideration of those with sensory deprivation in our conversations about what is language/expression and how we identify and label things. I think we often dismiss those with sensory challenges when we communicate.
Do you assume that the person who is blind has no personal identification for "blue"? ;)
Cosmic wrote: "In keeping with the theme of this thread I wonder if you have a list of "Overrated" Therapy Books? And in contrast what would you consider your favorite?"Difficult Conversations is a good book.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7...
Edward wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Edward wrote: "Geoffrey wrote: "The greatest hindrance to self knowledge is the fear of admitting to ourselves we don't conform to the ideal. It's what I call the angel complex, ie. ..."Consider yourself to be "acting" or playing a part with the different people you encounter throughout your daily life. We are not the same person when we are interacting with our parents as we are when we are interacting with our spouses, our children, our co-workers, our buddies, strangers, etc, etc. Can you recall an occasion when one of these people has said to you "you are a different person when you are with so-an-so." The reason for that is we play different roles in different relationships, we seek different outcomes and different validations, and conform to different ideals, whether they are self-serving, other-serving, or relationship-serving, we are in a constant balancing act to get what we want versus what others want.
Leslie wrote: "Consider yourself to be "acting" or playing a part with the different people you encounter throughout your daily life. We are not the same person when we are interacting with our parents as we are when we are interacting with our spouses, our children, our co-workers, our buddies, strangers, etc, etc. Can you recall an occasion when one of these people has said to you "you are a different person when you are with so-an-so." The reason for that is we play different roles in different relationships, we seek different outcomes and different validations, and conform to different ideals, whether they are self-serving, other-serving, or relationship-serving, we are in a constant balancing act to get what we want versus what others want...."It is important to be self aware and other aware at the same time. Anne turned me on to the message of Of Human Bondage as having given her that awareness that people have a view point that clouds their perception and can cause communication to break down when we don't first "seek to understand then to be understood."
I have been around some people that have done the "primal therapy" and multitudes of counseling and even (same person) became a counselor. She benefited me with some good advice and good books and I am grateful. But the other side of this is she learned to hide behind this mask and I didn't see it for a long time (she was a relative so this may have contributed to my fantasy). One of the things that surfaced was that she was very good at establishing boundaries for herself. She kept herself very safe. But she didn't recognize the boundaries of other people.
She couldn't handle no.
I have to go to lunch now but I want to give a few books as well.
Monty wrote;"The Freudian principle of unconscious influence on our thoughts and writing receives little recognition, but I believe it is pervasive and often invisible to the author"
Oh me too, how could it not? Very pervasive. My dear therapist from long ago was a Freud guy, but I loved him anyway.
Therapy is interesting, in books and real life. It is painful, and the therapist has to keep their professional distance.
But even so, like with doctors, you have to find someone who is a good match up to your personality.
I have experienced Freudian and Cognitive behavioural therapy as a doctor and as a patient. Both were hard, both helped.
But I preferred the CBT logical approach .The :
" Where is the evidence?" or " Am I making any thinking errors?" worked for me.
But even so, like with doctors, you have to find someone who is a good match up to your personality.
I have experienced Freudian and Cognitive behavioural therapy as a doctor and as a patient. Both were hard, both helped.
But I preferred the CBT logical approach .The :
" Where is the evidence?" or " Am I making any thinking errors?" worked for me.
I posted a review of Catcher just yesterday. I think it is the most misunderstood book on the list. It's not a book about teen angst; at it's core Catcher is about a young man struggling to come to terms with the death of his beloved brother. Reading it through that lens will open up an entire new view of the text. A genuine classic. Well ahead of it's time. Read it for the first time or again. See if your views change...
Lucie wrote: "Therapy is interesting, in books and real life. It is painful, and the therapist has to keep their professional distance. But even so, like with doctors, you have to find someone who is a good mat..."
Yes, mine did both, because Freud is dated, but still relevant. And it is interesting and painful but humor is good too, there has to be that- for me anyways. Your book is good Lucie, had to say that.
Good question, Edward. I purposely left it ambiguous as it could be construed both ways, societal or personal.
Stephen wrote: "I posted a review of Catcher just yesterday. I think it is the most misunderstood book on the list. It's not a book about teen angst; at it's core Catcher is about a young man struggling to come to..."I will check yours out, read mine too!
Karen wrote: "Stephen wrote: "I posted a review of Catcher just yesterday. I think it is the most misunderstood book on the list. It's not a book about teen angst; at it's core Catcher is about a young man strug..."Geoffrey wrote: "Good question, Edward. I purposely left it ambiguous as it could be construed both ways, societal or personal."
Karen wrote: "Stephen wrote: "I posted a review of Catcher just yesterday. I think it is the most misunderstood book on the list. It's not a book about teen angst; at it's core Catcher is about a young man strug..."
Karen, will do...
Renee wrote: "I've found the people I met who didn't like themselves were given that self-image by someone(s) who had a vested interest in keeping them under control. If you are self-aware enough to consciousl..."
Good points Renee. That can start so early in life.
I din't read all of them but I thought Moby Dick did not belong on the list.I would also add "The Alchemist" by Coehlo
Paul Martin wrote: "It's a fantastic book (feels wrong to even mention it here in the Overrated books thread). I read the Wordsworth Classics annotated edition translated by Constance Garnett. I don't speak a word Rus..."I liked that edition too.
Renee wrote: "Here's a question that goes back to the allegorical stuff . . .I've found myself, going back over my work in the process of writing, realizing that, "hey, that's an allegory for X!" On examinatio..."
Not odd-out at all, Renee. I've written a lot poetry and fiction and the most interesting stuff comes from I'm not sure where, but I call it the subconscious. I think Monty referred to when he mentioned Freud. That's one reason why when I'm writing a lot I like to work really early in the morning, before I'm completely awake.
Might be worth checking out "Flight From Death" documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH768...
"Narrated by Gabriel Byrne, Flight from Death, is a seven-time Best Documentary award-winning film which uncovers death anxiety as a possible root cause of many of our behaviors on a psychological, spiritual, and cultural level."
Cosmic wrote: "And in contrast what would you consider your favorite? "Clare Weeks' Hope and Help for Your Nerves. That book may have saved my life. It's been around so long it may be THE original Self Help Book. Check out my review if you're interested:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Michael wrote: "Edward wrote: "I have to ask Michael two things. First; could you expand on the quote you took which said; "language determines reality." Please don't refer me to Mary's book, because that idea sou..."Michael
I don't believe the Shakespearean quote applicable. One references ontology, the other morality.
The postmodern credo relates to the ontological, Shakespeare's doesn't. I fail to see the connect other that both refer to perception.
Years ago when living in Boston, I had an employee whose interest in architecture intersected with the dark arts. He had a portfolio of maps of Beantown with his exercises. He would spend hours with the slide ruler and sharpened pencil, drawing lines between the churches built in Boston's first 200 years, seeking Pentangles. He literally had dozens, if not hundreds of these drawings, without finding concrete evidence of any black magic but this did not discourage him. He was convinced once he established a perfect Pentangle, that would be sufficient evidence of there being a secret society among both architects and church elders in 18th c. Boston.Currently, there is a member of this message thread who reminds me of my former employee.
Geoffrey wrote: "Years ago when living in Boston, I had an employee whose interest in architecture intersected with the dark arts. He had a portfolio of maps of Beantown with his exercises. He would spend hours wit..."Oh you caught me, Geoffrey...I am indeed a Pentangle ;)
Leslie wrote: "Might be worth checking out "Flight From Death" documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH768...
"Narrated by Gabriel Byrne, Flight from Death, is a seven-time Best Documentary award-w..."
That looks interesting, and makes sense. Thanks
Karen wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Might be worth checking out "Flight From Death" documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH768...
"Narrated by Gabriel Byrne, Flight from Death, is a seven-time Best Docu..."
:) Welcome!
Leslie wrote: "Karen wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Might be worth checking out "Flight From Death" documentary:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH768...
"Narrated by Gabriel Byrne, Flight from Death, is a seven-..."
NOT available in my country!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH768...
"Narrated by Gabriel Byrne, Flight from Death, is a seven-..."
NOT available in my country!
Lucie wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Karen wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Might be worth checking out "Flight From Death" documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH768...
"Narrated by Gabriel Byrne, Flight from Dea..."
Oh phooey, Lucie! Maybe it is available on a format other than YouTube that you could access if you do a search for the title.
Edward wrote: "Geoffrey wrote: "Years ago when living in Boston, I had an employee whose interest in architecture intersected with the dark arts. He had a portfolio of maps of Beantown with his exercises. He woul..."That is funny Edward.
I especially liked the last line of that video: "We create the greatest evil by trying to escape from evil." Essentially the same as: What you resist, persists.It also showed a copy of one of my favorite books: Ernest Becker's The Denial of Death
Speaking of psychotherapy and Gabriel Byrne, I think the best portrayal of a psychotherapist was Byrne's performance in the HBO series The Treatment, which unfortunately was cancelled after only two seasons. (My second favorite was the late great Robin Williams in Good Will Hunting.)
Michael wrote: "I especially liked the last line of that video: "We create the greatest evil by trying to escape from evil." Essentially the same as: What you resist, persists.It also showed a copy of one of my ..."
TDoD = One of my favorites too, Michael. I love the first part where he talks about baby egos, funny and fascinating...anyone with a child should read! Glad you watched the video. I haven't seen the whole thing, but plan to get through it tonight.
Geoffrey wrote: "MichaelI don't believe the Shakespearean quote applicable. One references ontology, the other morality.
The postmodern credo relates to the ontological, Shakespeare's doesn't. I fail to see the connect other that both refer to perception.
"
Just spotted your post, Geoffrey, and I agree that I shouldn't have included the Shakespeare quote. I think I was trying to relate it to the following paragraph:
According to these theorists, the most important factor shaping our thinking and world view is language. Rather than language reflecting the 'real world,' they propose that language creates and structures everything we know or can know regarding 'reality.'
So I was trying to stress that we not only create the 'external world' with language, but our 'internal world' as well, including our judgments of what is good or bad.
Edward wrote: "I hope this doesn't sound flip, but to me it seems obvious that perception, however attained, is all. "
It may seem obvious to those well-versed in postmodern literary theory and quantum mechanics, but it flies in the face of nearly all previous mainstream philosophy and scientific thought.
Leslie wrote: "Glad you watched the video. I haven't seen the whole thing, but plan to get through it tonight. "
I'm surprised it isn't yet available on DVD.
Michael wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Glad you watched the video. I haven't seen the whole thing, but plan to get through it tonight. "
I'm surprised it isn't yet available on DVD."
It probably is, but I'm cheap! ;) (it's available on amazon - free with Prime membership)
Michael wrote: "I wrote it. It's called Incognolio, and I'm climbing the walls because last week a literary agent said she loved it & will get back to me this week as to whether she'll represent me. The story is i..."That sounds fascinating. I'd love to read it. Good luck on the publication and let us know how it goes.
"Michael wrote: According to these theorists, the most important factor shaping our thinking and world view is language. Rather than language reflecting the 'real world,' they propose that language creates and structures everything we know or can know regarding 'reality.'So I was trying to stress that we not only create the 'external world' with language, but our 'internal world' as well, including our judgments of what is good or bad. "
I had a wonderful ebook on grammar and study of other societies and civilizations which lack words for which we have many and have multiple words for things we have only one. I wish I could find the article I am talking about, but alas...
Our society has the most euphemism for "death." Almost all of them ways to separate us from thinking of the inevitable. Some more primitive societies have only one indicating that they approach death with more acceptance. It is almost like analyzing a society from it's dictionary:>) The concept is fascinating.
I did some more searching on the internet and couldn't come up with what I was looking for, but I did find this in Wikipedia which is in the ball park:
The study of such cultural discourses and dialects is the domain of sociolinguistics, which looks at the relation between linguistic variation and social structures, as well as that of discourse analysis, which involves the structure of texts and conversations. Research on language through historical and evolutionary linguistics focuses on how languages change, and the origin and growth of languages, particularly over an extended period of time.
Yes, Anne--here's an interesting quote from Ralph Strauch:"Some languages are structured around quite different basic word- categories and relationships. They project very different pictures of the basic nature of reality as a result. The language of the Nootka Indians in the Pacific Northwest, for example, has only one principle word-category; it denotes happenings or events. A verbal form like “eventing” might better describe this word-category, except that such a form doesn’t sound right in English, with its emphasis on noun forms. We might think of Nootka as composed entirely of verbs, except that they take no subjects or objects as English verbs do. The Nootka, then, perceive the world as a stream of transient events, rather than as the collection of more or less permanent objects which we see. Even something which we see clearly as a physical object, like a house, the Nootka perceive of as a long-lived temporal event. The literal English translation of the Nootka concept might be something like “housing occurs;” or “it houses."
Michael wrote: "Yes, Anne--here's an interesting quote from Ralph Strauch:"Some languages are structured around quite different basic word- categories and relationships. They project very different pictures of t..."
Your Nootka reference and their different conceptualizing manifested in the structure of their language reminded me of a wonderfully clear explanation of how language is an expression of how we view life.
Remember the passage in T.H. White's "The Book of Merlyn," where King Arthur becomes an ant? Their language revolves around "Done" and "Not Done." An ant doing something crazy is a Not Done Ant, etc. Those two expressions define the world of the ant.
OK, I found the reference. The book is by my favorite grammarian. A way with words [sound recording (CD book)] : writing, rhetoric, and the art of persuasion / Michael D.C. Drout.Contents: How to do things with words : rhetoric and speech-act theory : how words can change reality -- Rhetoric, sophistry, and philosophy -- Audience -- Structures of effective arguments -- The enthymeme -- The rhetoric of logic : truth and syllogisms -- Logical fallacies -- Logos, ethos, pathos -- Figures of speech I : schemes -- Figures of speech II : tropes -- Grammar I : syntax -- Grammar II : structure, punctuation ("Pause and effect") -- Subtleties : word choice, speech patterns, accent -- Rhetorical train wrecks and triumphs.
This is a part of the Modern Library Series. I love this guy! He's brilliant and funny and I could listen to him forever. It isn't safe to mention to just anyone that your favorite book is about Advanced Grammar, but somehow, I think it is safe in this group.
Michael wrote: "Speaking of psychotherapy and Gabriel Byrne, I think the best portrayal of a psychotherapist was Byrne's performance in the HBO series The Treatment, which unfortunately was cancelled after only two seasons. (My second favorite was the late great Robin Williams in Good Will Hunting.)"
Oh, Robin Williams was amazing in that. I recently heard that he and Jonathan Winters were in Winters's attic doing improv with props- not sure when that was, but I would have loved to be in that attic with them.
Anne Hawn wrote: "OK, I found the reference. The book is by my favorite grammarian. A way with words [sound recording (CD book)] : writing, rhetoric, and the art of persuasion / Michael D.C. Drout.Contents: How..."
Sounds fascinating, Anne. I'll get it from the library.
Karen wrote: "Oh, Robin Williams was amazing in that. I recently heard that he and Jonathan Winters were in Winters's attic doing improv with props- not sure when that was, but I would have loved to be in that attic with them. "
Yes, Karen--Winters was Robin's mentor and also suffered from severe bipolar disorder.
Anne Hawn wrote: ""Our society has the most euphemism for "death." Almost all of them ways to separate us from thinking of the inevitable. Some more primitive societies have only one indicating that they approach death with more acceptance. It is almost like analyzing a society from it's dictionary:>) The concept is fascinating...."I had read a similar study a few years back. It talked about a tribe in South America that didn't get angry because they didn't have a word for it. They were much happier, it seemed.
Leslie wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "In keeping with the theme of this thread I wonder if you have a list of "Overrated" Therapy Books? And in contrast what would you consider your favorite?"Difficult Conversations i..."
Thank you for the book recommendation.
My favorite are The New Peoplemaking
And
The 7 Habits of Highly Effective Families
Or
The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: Powerful Lessons in Personal Change
Cosmic wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "In keeping with the theme of this thread I wonder if you have a list of "Overrated" Therapy Books? And in contrast what would you consider your favorite?"Difficult ..."
Friend read excerpts from this last weekend and it was fun:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...
Choose Yourself, by James Altucher
But I generally dislike self-help books.
Leslie wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "In keeping with the theme of this thread I wonder if you have a list of "Overrated" Therapy Books? And in contrast what would you consider your favorit..."I don't either. Too many generalizations and behavior labels that encourage lazy thinking
Speaking of masks . . . I know we weren't, or not for a while, but I would like to see more of this, everywhere. These are far more beautiful and ingenious than fashion. (I don't know why they had to 'label' this a 'lost world' btw; it's not lost to the people who live there):
http://www.whitewolfpack.com/2013/03/...
Leslie wrote: "Lucie wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Karen wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Might be worth checking out "Flight From Death" documentary:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH768...
"Narrated by Gabriel Byrne, F..."
I will try when my eye gets better
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH768...
"Narrated by Gabriel Byrne, F..."
I will try when my eye gets better
Kallie wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "In keeping with the theme of this thread I wonder if you have a list of "Overrated" Therapy Books? And in contrast what would you consid..."Wow! Amazing photos. Beautiful people.
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I've found myself, going back over my work in the process of writing, realizing that, "hey, that's an allegory for X!" On examination, it usually carries through — isn't an isolated, odd little allie-gory swimming in a story eddy, it's moving through the river of the story. But I did not consciously add it. I was intent on telling the story at the time.
So that makes me wary of attributing too much conscious premeditation to theories of allegorical messages, unless it's something terribly obvious, like "The Romance of the Rose."
Thoughts? I can't be that odd-out in a group (writers) that is already somewhat odd.