The Most Overrated Books Showing 3,151-3,200 of 5,680

[Renee E]

Geoffrey, this thread originally addressed books being called "overrated." Threads do digress, that's the beauty of conversations.

But . . . after much noodging, Cosmic DID finally start three threads about CitR and her theories.

They aren't getting much traffic, though, so I guess she's bringing it back here.

[Geoffrey]

Thanks Renee
This whole message thread has left me somewhat confused. I read the book 48 years ago and don't remember much of it. I wasn't impressed with the book at the time of readng it, nor did I heartily dislike it as so many people have expressed.
I had hoped that by reading these postings my memory would come back, but the book made so little impact that I am afraid it just doesn't work. There were so many other books I read that year that this one got the short shrift. I read And Quiet flows the Don, The Trial, Castle and Notes from the underground and with those as top billing CATCHER never had a chance.

[Renee E]

Eek! I didn't look far enough, Geoffrey . . . there are nine Cosmic Code threads.

But, you might find more of what you're looking for in this thread: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

And any comments by Monty J have a high likelihood of being helpful.

[Petergiaquinta]

Re: Cosmic

Here's the thing about your delving into allusions and throwing up every little thing you find as if it means something...you rarely get to the point where you make any sort of coherent attempt to explain what it does mean and then you never get to the next more important step and attempt to explain how it helps develop whatever your overarching thesis is about the work as a whole.

So, let's take what you just said about William Holden. What's the connection to Holden Caulfield besides the obvious? And then so what? How does this help convey meaning to the big picture of the book?

Interestingly, you seem to be fascinated by Nazis in Catcher. And W Holden is in Stalag 17. but so what? Well, first of all, that movie comes out after the book is published, so that's irrelevant and a mistake here.

But that doesn't mean William Holden is irrelevant to the novel. But what's the relevance? (I'm not going to do your work for you here. You'll have to look into it.) Maybe you can make it work. But that's the point. You rarely do make it work and that's your job. Allusions aren't just weird coincidences or random toss offs; they are integrated into the flow of the work to heighten meaning. I can speak to William Holden and Holden Caulfield. I can make it work into my overall picture of the novel and what Salinger is saying through Holden.

Strangely, however, although I have read thousands, maybe tens of thousands of words you have written about Catcher, I have never see you put your ramblings together into a coherent thesis. So do that for us. What is your big point about this code in Catcher? What is Salinger doing here in this novel of his that he has to convey through a hidden code?

And the car? Well, now you owe us two explanations. Why is it important? How does it connect to Salinger's overarching thematic concerns throughout the book? Good luck with the car. You'll need it. Perhaps you saw some car talk back on a thread about Gatsby awhile ago. Perhaps Leslie was involved in part of it, if I'm remembering right. But if you go back and reread, you'll see those car references were all connected back to the sporty/jaunty (male???) nature of Jordan Baker. And FSF is doing a great deal with the automobile in the novel. It's a crucial symbol, so a connection to Jordan Baker makes a lot of sense. So that's not a random observation. It's an interesting integrated supported discussion of an allusion connected to an overall concern of the author played out in the novel. Nothing random about it...

So what's that position you're taking on Catcher? Here, I'll go first:

In Catcher in the Rye, J.D. Salinger tells the story of Holden Caulfield, a troubled but sensitive 16-year-old who rejects the superficial values of the world around him, gets kicked out of his prep school at Christmas time, and goes on a three-day odyssey though New York City before facing the music at home. Over the course of these three days, the depressed Holden grows more despondent and more frustrated with the hypocrisy around him until he determines to run away to the West, leaving the life he hates behind. But by the end of the novel, rather than abandoning his life in New York, Holden comes to terms with the flawed world he lives in, and through Holden's experience Salinger shows his readers that perfection cannot be expected from the world and like Holden we have to learn to accept those flaws in others and in ourselves so that we can learn to live and prosper in an imperfect, fallen world.

So that's basically my position and most of the discussion I have had over the years here at GoodReads concerning this novel is in support of that position. I'm just curious about what your position is and how either the actor or the car references relates to it and helps support it. Your turn.

[Anne Hawn]

Leslie wrote: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiUsf..."

Leslie, he is a riot! Thanks for the link...I marked the video to go back and read some of the others.

[Tiff]

Chava wrote: "Whenever I see a person slam, or call The Catcher In the Rye an overrated, my heart breaks a little more. It is beyond my comprehension how someone can hate this book. In my mind, if you hated it, ..."

I read it for the first time a few years ago, and really didn't like it. However, it IS a classic, so I often found myself thinking just that: "I don't GET it." So, I can't honestly say it's overrated. I am just not in the crowd of people who understand it.

[Anne Hawn]

Petergiaquinta wrote: "In Catcher in the Rye, J.D. Salinger tells the story of Holden Caulfield, a troubled but sensitive 16-year-old who rejects the superficial values of the world around him, gets kicked out of his prep school at Christmas time, and goes on a three-day odyssey though New York City before facing the music at home. Over the course of these three days, the depressed Holden grows more despondent and more frustrated with the hypocrisy around him until he determines to run away to the West, leaving the life he hates behind. But by the end of the novel, rather than abandoning his life in New York, Holden comes to terms with the flawed world he lives in, and through Holden's experience Salinger shows his readers that perfection cannot be expected from the world and like Holden we have to learn to accept those flaws in others and in ourselves so that we can learn to live and prosper in an imperfect, fallen world."

Peter, that was an incredible post and a masterful summary. You nailed it! It was also a darned good "Belly up to the Bar" challenge.

[Anne Hawn]

Monty J wrote: "Cosmic wrote: " I wonder who taught her to argue?"

Home schooled."

Monty, I don't think she was homeschooled, and you are better than this.

[Leslie]

Petergiaquinta wrote: "Re: Cosmic

Here's the thing about your delving into allusions and throwing up every little thing you find as if it means something...you rarely get to the point where you make any sort of coherent..."

Great post, Peter! I think the car reference works in Gatsby re Jordan because the cars play a symbolic role in the story, Jordan was supposed to be fast, independent, exotic, masculine, cars in the twenties represented wealth, success, affluence, blah blah - yes, it was indeed I who mentioned the connection...but in Catcher it is a gigantic stretch and I don't see how or why it would be relevant.

[Leslie]

Anne Hawn wrote: "Leslie wrote: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiUsf..."

Leslie, he is a riot! Thanks for the link...I marked the video to go back and read some of the others."

You're welcome, glad you liked it.

[Leslie]

Monty J wrote: "Cosmic wrote: " I wonder who taught her to argue?"

Home schooled."

;)

[Cosmic]

Petergiaquinta wrote: "Re: In Catcher in the Rye, J.D. Salinger tells the story of Holden Caulfield, a troubled but sensitive 16-year-old who rejects the superficial values of the world around him, gets kicked out of his prep school at Christmas time, and goes on a three-day odyssey though New York City before facing the music at home. Over the course of these three days, the depressed Holden grows more despondent and more frustrated with the hypocrisy around him until he determines to run away to the West, leaving the life he hates behind. But by the end of the novel, rather than abandoning his life in New York, Holden comes to terms with the flawed world he lives in, and through Holden's experience Salinger shows his readers that perfection cannot be expected from the world and like Holden we have to learn to accept those flaws in others and in ourselves so that we can learn to live and prosper in an imperfect, fallen world...."

I know what Cliff Notes says. You regurgitated that really good! Your teacher will be proud of you.

[Themaidengod]

50 Shades should be added and in my opinion Twilight should be taken off

[Petergiaquinta]

Never read them, Cosmic.

Now present your position and then make the connections.

[Petergiaquinta]

And if that's too hard, then take your time. Start with William Holden and say something about him and the novel that makes sense.

[Leslie]

Peter doesn't need to regurgitate Cliff Notes, he knows his literature and has the chops to back it up, but most of your posts read like a disjointed ransom note of internet conspiracy theories.

[Cosmic]

Tiff wrote: "Chava wrote: "Whenever I see a person slam, or call The Catcher In the Rye an overrated, my heart breaks a little more. It is beyond my comprehension how someone can hate this book. In my mind, if ..."

I didn't get it either. There seemed to be a lot of motifs that just didn't make sense to me. I started examining them in light of WW2. Here is some of the things that I have discovered:
https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...

I hope you will leave a comment.

[Leslie]

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/r...

[Monty J]

Anne Hawn wrote: "Monty J wrote: "Cosmic wrote: " I wonder who taught her to argue?"

Home schooled."

Monty, I don't think she was homeschooled, and you are better than this."

Just making a little joke. :)

[Michael]

Cosmic wrote: "I know what Cliff Notes says. You regurgitated that really good! Your teacher will be proud of you."

Cosmic: It's tough to condense a whole novel into a single paragraph, and I think Peter did an outstanding job.

To me, you don't sound Cosmic at all, but rather small-minded. You complain that others don't appreciate you, and then write mean-spirited, snarky replies like the above.

Edward: I will try to answer your questions tomorrow, when I'm better rested.

[Anne Hawn]

Monty J wrote: "Home schooled."

Monty, I don't think she was homeschooled, and you are better than this."

Just making a little joke..."

Prejudice is never funny.

[C. J.]

I wonder if people think these are overrated (well some of the books anyway) because of the volume they had to read for school. Having to read it or hearing of the themes over and over again have caused people's hearts to harden over great literature.

I know that I have had to read The Catcher and The Great Gatsby in High School and while I enjoyed them remembered people's grunts and disgust over them as well. While I have not read Moby Dick I have heard a lot of people have had to read (and probably dislike) the work as well... it is a whopper of a book!

I know I haven't completely answered your question but I think that explains at least three of the books listed. It is my theory anyway. :)

[Cosmic]

Michael wrote: "Cosmic: It's tough to condense a whole novel into a single paragraph, and I think Peter did an outstanding job.""


You are right he did a great job condensing the Catcher into a story. I guess where we differ is I am not looking for a story and he is not looking for an allegory. I accept!

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Allegories are not designed to be sound bites.
He did great job but I didn't really gain any great insight. I read the book, so I didn't need a synopses of the book. Maybe someone else did need this though.
That is great.

[Cosmic]

CJ wrote: "I wonder if people think these are overrated (well some of the books anyway) because of the volume they had to read for school. Having to read it or hearing of the themes over and over again have c..."

I think you are right when you suggest that school can knock the wind out of reading. It did for me. But fortunately I didn't let that stop me and I determined to improve. One day we went to a library book sale in Boston and they gave me a bag for my books that said "Read the best books first or you may not have a chance to read them at all." Henry David Thoreau
That has inspired me to be more selective about what books I choose to read.

[C. J.]

Cosmic wrote: "CJ wrote: "I wonder if people think these are overrated (well some of the books anyway) because of the volume they had to read for school. Having to read it or hearing of the themes over and over a..."


Wow that is an interesting quote. And I guess people should read books first before they hear bad word on them sometimes as well.

You know one thing I hope to do in the near future is find things in context to books that I am about to read. Kind of get info on the setting the story takes place and try to understand it before delving into the book that it portrays. Like something a teacher would do. I wonder if that would open my mind to its world and make me appreciate the work that much better.

[Cosmic]

CJ wrote: "You know one thing I hope to do in the near future is find things in context to books that I am about to read. Kind of get info on the setting the story takes place and try to understand it before delving into the book that it portrays. Like something a teacher would do. I wonder if that would open my mind to its world and make me appreciate the work that much better ..."

That is a very good idea. I had a friend suggest to me that if I wanted to travel to a place to get magazine articles about the place. Books can be places that we travel to. When I was reading War and Peace I was very interested in the food they were eating. I think sharing in the culture of the area can create more connection to what we are reading.

What I have enjoyed the most about The Catcher In The Rye is to allow Salinger to teach me. I have been his student. When he would mention the movie that he took Phoebe to 10 times I watched it. But because he says he hates the movies and they are poison I read the book. It is called The 39 Steps. I read Out of Africa because this is what Holden was reading in his dorm room, and he said he wished he could call her up and be friends with her.

Salinger had a better education than I had as a child but he wasn't selfish. He shares it with anyone willing to ask him (through his books) questions and read. I have learned a lot about WW2 this way.

[Paul Martin]

Maybe you could suggest a study guide that you find useful to help me present such an argument that would allow me to go from point A to B.

Any academic writing guide will do, really. Or have a look at Monty's blog (at least when it was at RedRoom).

Or you could at least try and sum up your position in a few paragraphs - short and concise. Or even better, both.

[Cosmic]

Paul Martin wrote: "Maybe you could suggest a study guide that you find useful to help me present such an argument that would allow me to go from point A to B.

Any academic writing guide will do, really. Or have a lo..."

Thank you Paul. These are thoughtful suggestions.

I think in a very short and concise statement:

The Catcher In The Rye is an allegory about money (fish), and war (ducks).

[Paul Martin]

But why don't you answer Peters post nr. 3288? He asked a bunch of questions that gives you the opportunity to shed light on your idea. This one (but the others as well) for example:

And the car? Well, now you owe us two explanations. Why is it important? How does it connect to Salinger's overarching thematic concerns throughout the book?

[Vanessa]

I read somewhere that you either love Catcher in the Rye to death or you think Holden is the most annoying little brat in the world. I totally agree and I went for the latter.

[Renee E]

Cosmic wrote: I think in a very short and concise statement:

The Catcher In The Rye is an allegory about money (fish), and war (ducks).
"

There are probably allegories to be found (whether the author consciously put them there or not) in any book worth reading.

That said, your quickie summation made me giggle, not because it isn't worthy, but it sparked the notion in my head of a (farcical) essay using the allegorical ducks and Duck Dynasty, maybe the Peabody Hotel ducks . . .

The stuff that goes on inside my head . . .

[Karen]

Renee wrote: "Cosmic wrote: I think in a very short and concise statement:

The Catcher In The Rye is an allegory about money (fish), and war (ducks).
"

There are probably allegories to be found (whether the a..."

Lol! funny

[Cosmic]

Paul Martin wrote: "But why don't you answer Peters post nr. 3288? He asked a bunch of questions that gives you the opportunity to shed light on your idea. This one (but the others as well) for example:

And the car? ..."

The car as a motif and allusion in the Catcher in the Rye is because Holden is the name of a car: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden produced by GM, who bought the company in 1931. The car manufacturing plants turn their focus away from making cars to making war related weapons.
"In 1931 General Motors purchased Holden Motor Body Builders and merged it with General Motors (Australia) Pty Ltd to form General Motors-Holden's Ltd (GM-H).

However, World War II delayed car production with efforts shifted to the construction of vehicle bodies, field guns, aircraft and engines."

Holden travels all over starts out in school and we go with him to NYC. He is wondering about the ducks. Which are a type of war vehicle made by the same car manufacturers as a Holden...GM.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DUKW

Holden knows Jane. He met her two summer's before in Maine. Jane is a catalog of weapons.
http://www.ihs.com/products/janes/def...

I have a lot of other things that make this relevant to me but I don't feel like explaining it to you. If it doesn't make sense to you, I am sorry. It does resonate with a few on here, and mostly it does with me.

If you want to know more about what I think you can go to my discussion board: https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...

[Paul Martin]

Now, that is much better. The way you present it now makes it much more accessible. It doesn't matter if I agree or not, because I can now see what you're thinking and that makes it much more interesting to talk about. You've effectively shown what you see as a clear indication that Holden is to be seen as a vehicle, and that is what you need to do to get people interested - the random quotations and secretive questions just does the opposite, and so does claiming something and then saying that "I don't feel like explaining it you you" - that's a no-go in honest discussion, as far as I'm concerned. Assertions without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, but once you actually show what you believe is a connection, you've done your part. The other people in the conversation can of course disagree that it's a valid connection or decline to discuss further, in which case neither part should press the point.

I will not be participating in your group simply because I'm not that interested in The CitR, but if you ever come up with an end product where the theory as a whole is outlined and explained, I would like to read it.

[Kallie]

Kallie wrote: "Leslie wrote: "You can walk on the moon with me anytime, Kallie ;) (crack that code)"

Ack. Lousy at codes, but I'll give it some thought."

Ha. Gotcha. He nails it.

[Petergiaquinta]

Thank you to Leslie for teaching me a new word, "apophenia," and for putting a name to what is troubling about the way Cosmic interprets Catcher. (And thank you for teaching me "pareidolia" as well!) If you haven't read the article, essentially this term identifies the aberrant tendency to create patterns out of meaningless data. Gamblers often do this. And conspiracy nuts. And people like Mark David Chapman. Unfortunately, this is the problem with the way Cosmic approaches much of Catcher with her references to the Holden automobile, the weapons group Jane's and the DUKWs (Ducks).

Follow Leslie's link and you'll see a black and white graphic illustrating he story. Is it a woman's face? No, it's a man playing a saxophone! Wait, it's both! And you're all correct because you can point out there's the woman's eye; there's her lip; that's the curve of her face. Here's the man's shoe; here's his horn. Both interpretations are correct because both sets of evidence are working toward a final, rational conclusion, an overarching working together of the details to create an overall coherent meaning. And both interpretations can be correct at the same time!

But can you argue the same graphic is a condemnation of industrialization in the developing world? Can you say it's a strong comment against the way migratory patterns by song birds are being disrupted by the loss of tropical forests? Not unless you're crazy. But what about the shape to the right? Isn't that clearly a bird? Isn't the bird flying into a kind of chaotic darkness? Isn't this obviously a bold statement by an artist with marked ecological concerns about how loss of forestland in the tropics due to globalized industrialization is diminishing...?

It doesn't matter if that spot looks like a bird. The rest of the analysis collapses into ridiculousness because the other evidence doesn't support the conclusions being drawn about bird migration, industrialization or globalization.

So, back to Catcher, there is a Holden automobile. In Australia. How many were in the U.S. in the '40s or '50s? Close to none, probably. Did Salinger know of the car brand? If he did, why would he use an esoteric car name from the other side of the globe to create an allegory for something of concern in the U.S.? (As a side note, the form of the "allegory" relies on a simplicity or a universality of correspondences; if the reader doesn't get it, then the author has failed. Reference Pilgrim's Progress or Everyman or Mankind, as examples of allegories. They are easy enough for a child to follow.) So it's simple with an Internet connection to start popping in names and then get excited when you find out there is a weapons conglomerate called Jane's or an amphibious vehicle called the "duck" in WWII. But then to create an overarching meaning for all of this that does not hold up to rational scrutiny or is not born out by the rest of the evidence in the novel is to engage in this form of aberrant thinking, finding a patten where none really exists.

Why would Jane G reference weaponry? She's a gentle spirit, someone Holden has great compassion for, someone he cares deeply for and when he discovers Stradlater has a date with her he is troubled and later infuriated. She is passive; she is possibly abused by her step-father. She represents the sort of innocence Holden wants to protect in the world, but gradually comes to accept he cannot.

And why would the ducks of the park represent landing craft? Again, Holden is concerned by loss, by change, by the transience of life. These ducks in the park haven't launched an invasion. They have migrated. But Holden is worried about them. The cabbie, as brusque as he is, tells Holden something that later he comes to understand and put together in a bigger framework of understanding. Nature takes care of the ducks. People grow up. People change and even die sometimes before they should. This is part of nature and life. It's hard to accept, but it's what happens.

I like how Cosmic has begun to focus her approach to the book. I like how she has tried to craft a position on her view of what Salinger is saying. Now let's take that starting point and fine tune it. What is Salinger saying about money and war through Holden's experience in the novel? And how do the details/evidence support that?

[Cosmic]

Petergiaquinta wrote: "Thank you to Leslie for teaching me a new word, "apophenia," and for putting a name to what is troubling about the way Cosmic interprets Catcher. (And thank you for teaching me "pareidolia" as well..."

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

For some reason you just don't inspire me to keep answering your questions. Rather than a discussion it just feels like an attack. So I think I am satisfied to say that we will just have to agree to disagree.

[Monty J]

Anne Hawn wrote: "Prejudice is never funny."

But, but..., she was the one making a big deal about..., nevermind. You are right. I apologize.

:)

[Cosmic]

Edward wrote: "First; could you expand on the quote you took which said; "language determines reality.""
From post 3263

I am not sure what Michael definition of this is but I find it interesting. We were talking about this the other day because my daughter is learning a second language and it has caused her to question a lot of the words and meaning of words and grammar. I also just thought of the word "Argo", which I ran across in Les Miserable by Victor Hugo. He used this word when he talked about a street urchin. It does color ones perception of the world and thus I think it could have an effect on how you perceived reality. On the other hand I think we have had too much Think and Grow Rich so that we are not deluded by this kind of exuberance. I would love to delete some English words and I think our world would be a happier place to live in.

[Leslie]

Petergiaquinta wrote: "Thank you to Leslie for teaching me a new word, "apophenia," and for putting a name to what is troubling about the way Cosmic interprets Catcher. (And thank you for teaching me "pareidolia" as well..."

You're welcome, Peter! We learned about this process initially in my art theory classes (da Vinci and Dali) and then again in psychology. Apophenia is the form that applies to writing, I think.

You've hit the nail on the head though. Being presented with the connections as they have been leaves me with just a "so what?" feeling. A Holden was a car...so what? Holden in the story is a "vehicle" ...yeah...so what? If it is an allegory it's a pretty weak/obvious one that isn't worth digging for. It's just Salinger being clever, not speaking to us from the beyond with secret war code.

[Leslie]

Petergiaquinta wrote: "Thank you to Leslie for teaching me a new word, "apophenia," and for putting a name to what is troubling about the way Cosmic interprets Catcher. (And thank you for teaching me "pareidolia" as well..."

PS: Did you ever see Hitchcock's "Spellbound"...that movie was a trip!

[Leslie]

Cosmic wrote: "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

For some reason you just don't inspire me to keep answering your questions. Rather than a discussion it just feels like an attack. So I think I am satisfied to say that we will just have to agree to disagree."

If your "students" aren't interested or engaged in the "lesson" it is the fault of the teacher, not the student. No one is obligated to inspire you.

[Cosmic]

Leslie wrote: "Petergiaquinta wrote: "Thank you to Leslie for teaching me a new word, "apophenia," and for putting a name to what is troubling about the way Cosmic interprets Catcher. (And thank you for teaching ..."

Sometimes I feel like the scarecrow in this group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG2keY...

[Leslie]

that's because you have alienated yourself with pompous insults and refusal to exchange. You preach and present you do not express or exchange. Then cry "the victim" of bullying after insulting nearly all of the very intelligent people frequenting and submitting to this thread (without/around/in spite of your presence). It is your communication and attitude more than content (everyone here is very open-minded and accepting of new ideas), and your enormous-appearing ego, that are getting in the way. Frankly, from my perspective, if you were at the head of the class you wouldn't teach me a thing. You aren't part of the group.

[Leslie]

Edward wrote: "In the meantime I enjoy her insightful posts, saying whatever pops into her brilliant, creative, courageous head in the moment"

Yeah...maybe we don't feel like it. Works both ways. The burden of inspiring the "feeling" is on the presenter. Peter doesn't have trouble inspiring interest. Paul Martin doesn't have trouble inspiring interest. Kallie doesn't have trouble inspiring interest. Mark doesn't have trouble inspiring interest. Gary is a hoot, and not only does he inspire interest but I have never seen him insult anyone. Monty is a great diplomat with wonderful insights and generous contributions/exchanges. The only difficulty that has been exchanged on this thread is between YOU and Cosmic at anyone who just isn't inspired by you...and you lay the burden on the group, insult the group's intelligence, gender, lifestyle, and whatever else you want to aim at to get your dig in, while crying victim of abuse when it comes back to you.

[Renee E]

That may be, Edward, but what Leslie said was they READ like a disjointed ransom note of internet conspiracy theories.

We'll never know if they're true or not, unless someone contacts Teresa Caputo on Long Island and she can get in touch with Salinger and cajole him into confirming or denying the theories.

[Petergiaquinta]

Re: Cosmic and the Scarecrow, etc.

Hmmm...not sure I understand that allusion, either. Is it because your head is stuffed with straw or because you are gleefully bounding ahead of the others toward the Emerald City, a rather silly place predicated on illusion?

Whatever the case may be, I identify closest with the flying monkey in that clip, although you may feel free to disagree with me on that one. So often when we self-identify we're just fooling ourselves anyway.

But agree to disagree if you like...

Scroll back up and you'll see where I declined to get into this discussion in the first place, and then look where you, through Holden's words, referred to me as a "moron" because morons never like to engage in intellectual conversations.

And now here's poor me, gritting my teeth, trying to have an intellectual conversation on a topic that I already declined and now being told that there's no point in talking about these things.

So...help me out here...either accept the responsibility that comes with "intellectual conversations" by developing a position to defend with textual support and responding to questions and statements by the other half of the conversation, or don't goad me into that discussion in the first place if you don't really want to discuss these things.

At the fear of being repetitive, I'll say this one more time about allusions. They have to work into a larger framework to advance the author's bigger goals in the work for them to be worth discussing. So Gary pointed out on another thread how Holden's alias "Rudolf Schmidt" not only gives him a manly sounding (albeit humorous) name to hide behind, it also references the "smith" and how Holden here is hammering out an identity (an armor against the world?) for himself as he embarks on this odyssey of sorts. And I chimed in that I liked that "smith" connection because his next alias is "Steele," and smiths work with metal...and so it goes, all leading toward an increased understanding of what the author is doing with the character of Holden Caulfield to advance meaning in his novel.

[Cosmic]

Edward wrote: "think well taken with one possible inherent assumption. You are analyzing Cosmic's work as if it were a book or thesis. ..."

Thank you Edward! Learning something is what I have been doing. Learning is not linear. It is all over the place. It happens with little pieces of insight. It happens when you mull over something for weeks and months and even years. I don't think it is my job to "make" people see. They have to want to.


I think that school does try to manipulate their students to "see" through testing...to see if the imprinting took! But I don't think memorization is learning.

"Knowing without doing is the same as not knowing"

I was thinking about the Country of the Bilnd. Her is a little blurb of it from Wiki:

From The Country Of The Blind http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Co...

"The valley had been a haven for settlers fleeing the tyranny of Spanish rulers, until an earthquake reshaped the surrounding mountains, cutting the valley off forever from future explorers. The isolated community prospered over the years, despite a disease that struck them early on, rendering all newborns blind. As the blindness slowly spreads over many generations, the people's remaining senses sharpened, and by the time the last sighted villager had died, the community had fully adapted to life without sight."

When people enjoy life the way they "see" it how am I to convince them of something different. Their language cuts them off from seeing. A teacher can teach but it is up to the student to learn and not the other way around.

As far as I am concern we can create a lot of great content on this group if we are creative. And we can even use the messages that are less than helpful to propel our thinking and discourse. We have a lot of power in our response!

[Paul Martin]

Cosmic "wrote": When non-religious people enjoy life the way they "see" it how am I to convince them of something different. Their lack of faith language cuts them off from seeing that God is great. A shepherd teacher can teach but it is up to the lamb student to learn and not the other way around.

You are a believer, that is for sure. Anyway, I'm serious when I want you to let me know if you end up with an end product. Theories are almost always interesting, even though I might not agree.

[Leslie]

Edward wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Edward wrote: "In the meantime I enjoy her insightful posts, saying whatever pops into her brilliant, creative, courageous head in the moment"

Yeah...maybe we don't feel like it. W..."

I do very much appreciate your support of different ideas and your interest in expanding your process and perspective, Edward. For that you are to be appreciated and validated. But personally, Cosmic's presentation and method aren't what I would support and encourage for group discussion/exchange. Peter, who is an experienced and successful teacher, whether one supports public education and its methods or not, knows how to present and discuss a process in an inclusive and informative manner, as do most of the others here.