The Catcher in the Rye
discussion
The Most Overrated Books
Renee wrote: "Tangent: You guys . . . THANKS. I so needed to *hear* that. The other writers in my group are primarily mystery writers and a couple of them keep mentioning the "nothing happens" business about the..."I've experienced this in workshops, mostly from people who want to write the latest thriller or mystery novel -- poles apart from you very likely want to create. Good luck Renee. Sounds like you are writing something interesting.
Thank you so much, Kallie.
Mochaspresso wrote: "I have to admit that I said that of "Tess of the D'urbervilles" when I first read it. It wasn't so much that nothing happens, but that I felt Hardy would go off on tangents with lengthy description..."A teacher I had about 1 year ago said that this tends to happen because nineteenth-century literature was all about space, whilst twentieth-century literature was all about time. Now, I don't think it's as simple as that, but he does seem to have a point, especially regarding novelists like Hardy, Dickens or Huysmans, who can go on for ages talking about a tapestry or the paintings inside a room.
Petergiaquinta wrote: "Or Hugo!"I love how the French name their major streets after artists and writers.
Paris: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pla...
We name ours after generals and presidents.
Oakand, CA: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Nim...
Dallas, TX: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pre...
Hugo indeed. I read the Hunchback of Notredame when quite young because I loved the Charles Laughton film so much. I found it fascinating, and recently tried it again; couldn't get past the opening scene which was, literally, like an immense tapestry or Bosch painting though not so comically horrific.
Daniel wrote: "but he does seem to have a point, especially regarding novelists like Hardy, Dickens or Huysmans, who can go on for ages talking about a tapestry or the paintings inside a room. .."I think John Ruskin may have influenced a lot of these writers.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_R...
Now we are reduced to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywgJLw...
Cosmic wrote: "Daniel wrote: "but he does seem to have a point, especially regarding novelists like Hardy, Dickens or Huysmans, who can go on for ages talking about a tapestry or the paintings inside a room. .."..."
I don't agree that Hardy fits in here. To me his style is as sensual as it is descriptive. I feel the scene and am very close to the person described and what they are experiencing. Dickens and Hugo don't do that for me.
Hugo don't do that for me. But he can do other things for you - make you fall in love with France, make you loose faith in humanity and then rebuild it, make your pulse reach 190 while sitting in a chair, etc.
Or, that's what he does for me, at least:)
Hugo did all that for me in Hunchback, except make me fall in love with France, lol.But when I've tried to read Les Mis I cannot focus.
Renee wrote: "Hugo did all that for me in Hunchback, except make me fall in love with France, lol.But when I've tried to read Les Mis I cannot focus."
Alright, I take it back, I was already in love when I read it.
But when I've tried to read Les Mis I cannot focus.
Isn't Ritalin available in supermarkeds over there?:)
Paul Martin wrote: "Hugo don't do that for me. But he can do other things for you - make you fall in love with France, make you loose faith in humanity and then rebuild it, make your pulse reach 190 while sitting in..."
Good reminders. I will try Hugo and Dickens again I'm sure. Not saying they aren't genius. To fess up, Hardy is a favorite and I'm partial to him. He offended Victorian sensibilities and his style and vision are more modern I think, so I shouldn't compare him to Hugo, Dickens, Balzac, etc.
Paul Martin wrote: "Isn't Ritalin available in supermarkeds over there?:) "If a good shiraz or bourbon won't help me, nothing will :p
Kallie wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Daniel wrote: "but he does seem to have a point, especially regarding novelists like Hardy, Dickens or Huysmans, who can go on for ages talking about a tapestry or the paintings insi..."Well I know that Ruskin had a huge influence on Proust. Proust was one to discuss tapestries and architecture. So this is why I mentioned him. But also because I grew up on an area where the oldest buildings might be grits mills not cathedrals. So I was just thinking about how we have a different group of writers, in a different place of course, but we are caught up in things going BOOM! In that way we have time being highlighted. We live in a disposable world.
Maria wrote: "Which books do you think are overrated? Here's a quick sampling from various internet sites that recommend skipping these:
The Catcher in the Rye
Moby Dick
The Great Gatsby
Waiting for Godot
The..."
Catcher in the Rye is my all time favorite book.
Overrated:
The Great Gatsby
Atlas Shrugged and hugged by the Republican Party
The Da Vinci Code
I would add The Idiot
My choices for now would be 1. The Catcher in the Rye (Never got better)
2. The Secret (Promoting very horrible and dangerous ideas)
3. The Great Gatsby (I Liked it all right but its nothing much)
Emma wrote: "I feel that Catcher in the Rye (and other classics that I don't like) is like an abstract painting. Art enthusiasts might claim that it is a masterpiece and pay an outrageous price for it, but to t..."Very well put Emma.
Vikas wrote: "Emma wrote: "I feel that Catcher in the Rye (and other classics that I don't like) is like an abstract painting. Art enthusiasts might claim that it is a masterpiece and pay an outrageous price for..."But that implies that you have every so much better sense and taste than than the people who think well of the book. Maybe you just don't get it.
Kallie wrote: "Vikas wrote: "Emma wrote: "I feel that Catcher in the Rye (and other classics that I don't like) is like an abstract painting. Art enthusiasts might claim that it is a masterpiece and pay an outrag..."When it comes to art and literature, who decides what is a great work. Certainly not the general public, but who are the so-called experts? The academics? Or do we go by the personal tastes of the wealthy benefactors who contribute money to their favorite artists and institutions?
Ever wonder if sometimes they're just yanking our chains? "Yeah, we'll say this is blah-blah-blah, the next Yadda Bing, and they'll all buy the hype."
Renee wrote: "Ever wonder if sometimes they're just yanking our chains? "Yeah, we'll say this is blah-blah-blah, the next Yadda Bing, and they'll all buy the hype.""
As in, flavor-of-the whatever bestsellers? Usually those cause resistance in me. i.e., Harry Potter, Eat Pray Love, etc. Does anyone honestly enjoy a book or painting just because others say they should?
Oh, even in the world of Big Art. Maybe especially there. I suspect for most of the players the game is about money and the patter is formulaic hyperbole meant to confuse the wealthy and separate their egos from large chunks of money.There are far too many who do *enjoy* something because others say they should. They enjoy the feeling of belonging, of being part of an elite group of millions, the patina of superior taste because the Experts concur. It saves them the angst of forming original thoughts and opinions and perhaps not getting that all important external validation.
And then there are their opposites, The Hipsterocracy, who take the opposite stance and jeer from their own elite group of millions and never have to form an original thought.
"Best sentence and most solas," says Harry Bailly, the Host of the Tabard Inn, and 'twas ever thus, if I can quote Mr. Natural and in one sentence work in two of the wisest figures in all of literature.Harry Bailly judges the winning story of the Canterbury Tales, and he's no lit critic or wealthy patron; he's just a regular guy with a pain of a wife and a sense for what makes a great story. And he knows what we all know, or should know: the measure of greatness in literature (and the arts) comes from how well that story teaches us and moves us, and that's still true today. It must blend instruction and entertainment. It must appeal to the intellect and the emotions. And the better it does the two of them together, the better a chance that story has of winning a free supper.
This is why Harry Potter is better than Divergent. And why Moby Dick and Faulkner are better than both.
Petergiaquinta wrote: "...the measure of greatness in literature (and the arts) comes from how well that story teaches us and moves us,..."Bravo!
Monty J wrote: "Petergiaquinta wrote: "...the measure of greatness in literature (and the arts) comes from how well that story teaches us and moves us,..."Bravo!"
I second that, Bravo indeed. Free supper for Peter :D
Ooh, nice! Thanks!
Petergiaquinta wrote: ""Best sentence and most solas," says Harry Bailly, the Host of the Tabard Inn, and 'twas ever thus, if I can quote Mr. Natural and in one sentence work in two of the wisest figures in all of litera..."Succinct!
Petergiaquinta wrote: the measure of greatness in literature (and the arts) comes from how well that story teaches us and moves us, and that's still true todayThat is certainly what most of us are looking for, but the question remains: who is to be the judge? Is it just about the individual reader or art patron and how he/she responds to a particular work? What moves one individual may not work for someone else. Hence all the differences of opinion on the validity of works like the Catcher in the Rye.
Matthew wrote: "What moves one individual may not work for someone else. Hence all the differences of opinion on the validity of works like the Catcher in the Rye."Ultimately it is the individual in that sacred trinity between reader, work and author.
And the individual changes over time.
The individual can be guided and influenced by teachers, critics and others. His eyes can be opened to things he/she was incapable of seeing on his/her own. We all have blind spots. We all age and gain experience as we go through life that, hopefully, expands our literary vision.
I remember the animated discussions between Siskel and Hebert (Oh, for those days!), the famed film critics. They seldom agreed, but their combined range of insight opened many eyes and elevated the movie-going experience for everyone in general.
It's the same with Goodreads and literature.
But literature isn't like a sport, a zero-sum game, win-lose. There are seldom clear winners. It's all about how a story speaks to the individual. Some people resist--out of ideology or internal conflict--what a story has to offer, and there's no way to counter that.
On the other hand, if a story speaks to us in a personal way, it doesn't matter what any teacher, critic or anyone else says. They could all be wrong.
Leslie wrote: "Monty J wrote: "Petergiaquinta wrote: "...the measure of greatness in literature (and the arts) comes from how well that story teaches us and moves us,..."Bravo!"
I second that, Bravo indeed. Fr..."
I third that! Love that Faulkner guy, no writer moves me the way he does.
I'd say there are a lot of different routes into the canon of "great literature". Maybe most critics & academics love you, and you start to get taught in schools (Joyce, Faulkner); maybe you wowed a very influential person, who pushes other people into reading your work (John Fante); maybe you appealed to the taste of the masses, and your work becomes so prevalent in a big portion of society that it becomes impossible to ignore (Harry Potter). I don't think there is one judge, but rather a general consensus between all the relevant sectors of society. I think we all, as a collective, take a step back and say "OK, this should be read because it meant a lot for our generation; this should be read because [important writer] loved it and was nurtured by it; this should be forgotten because it's kind of a copycat, etc., etc".Some people tend to think that academics and critics act as a single entity with a perfect plan to select canonical works that pander only to their taste, and that's not true. It's not true, for starters, because the academy does not have a particular taste. Many academics detest Joyce, or Salinger, or Hemingway. They do so as individuals, but it doesn't change a thing. The collective unconscious has already decided that those writers will move on as classics.
Monty J wrote: "Matthew wrote: "What moves one individual may not work for someone else. Hence all the differences of opinion on the validity of works like the Catcher in the Rye."Ultimately it is the individual..."
Well said
Monty J wrote: "But literature isn't like a sport, a zero-sum game, win-lose. There are seldom clear winners. It's all about how a story speaks to the individual. Some people resist--out of ideology or internal conflict--what a story has to offer, and there's no way to counter that.On the other hand, if a story speaks to us in a personal way, it doesn't matter what any teacher, critic or anyone else says. They could all be wrong.
..."
Dinners on me Monty!
I think if we all met in person we would be surprised by what we think about each other just through our literary taste and then the rest of our experiences.
Funny Cosmic should mention "Dinner with Monty." I too thought about looking him up next time I'm in the Bay Area and inviting him to lunch or coffee. But I had a surprise up my sleeve...I was going to present him with The Elder Wand as a token of my respect and admiration. His passion about helping abused children and orphans is reminiscent of Dumbledore and, like the Hogwarts' Headmaster, Monty has demonstrated in his writings and posts the wisdom to wield this all powerful wand.For those looking for good literary fiction about the Iraq war era, check out Mark Powell's The Sheltering. He touches on drone assassinations, the occupy wall street movement, 1% ers, social justice, Zen philosophy, Biblical allusions, spirituality.
S.W. wrote: "hose looking for good literary fiction about the Iraq war era, check out Mark Powell's The Sheltering. He touches on drone assassinations, the occupy wall street movement, 1% ers, social justice, Zen philosophy, Biblical allusions, spirituality..."It looks like they are going to give away 10 books if anyone is interested.
S.W. wrote: "...like the Hogwarts' Headmaster, Monty has demonstrated in his writings and posts the wisdom to wield this all powerful wand."Well, now I have to read one of those books. :)
Thanks for the compliment. Made my week. Made me blush.
But seriously, any time you guys are in the Bay Area, don't hesitate to let me know.
Monty J wrote: "S.W. wrote: "...like the Hogwarts' Headmaster, Monty has demonstrated in his writings and posts the wisdom to wield this all powerful wand."Well, now I have to read one of those books. :)
Thank..."
You deserve the compliment Monty.
Renee wrote: "Oh, even in the world of Big Art. Maybe especially there. I suspect for most of the players the game is about money and the patter is formulaic hyperbole meant to confuse the wealthy and separate t..."Great post- I'm glad I don't belong in either group- just to belong somewhere.
Kallie wrote: " I will try Hugo and Dickens again I'm sure. ..."If you are ever in a legal battle I recommend Bleak House. If you are interested in his views on education you can't go wrong with Hard Times
I spent a couple years trying to read all of Charles Dickens. I didn't finish the list but I read my fill.
Just a side note
Thomas Edison:
" He was thrilled by Victor Hugo's new romantic epic, Les Miserables, especially the stories of lost children. He talked so much about the book that his friends
called him "Victor Hugo" Edison."
http://www.homeschoolresourcecenter.n...
Work sucks. I miss reading.
Mark wrote: "Work sucks. I miss reading."Hey! Mark has returned. And on my birthday. What a nice present.
Happy Birthday, Monty!Welcome back, Mark!
I missed you guys. Shit ton of freelance work came my way all at once. I'm still digging myself out from under. This is the way with freelancing, it's either famine or an overabundance.Happy Birthday, Monty. Hopefully I'll pick up Ulysses over the weekend.
I hope you have a wonderful birthday, and a more wonderful year ahead, Monty.
Monty J wrote: "Mark wrote: "Work sucks. I miss reading."Hey! Mark has returned. And on my birthday. What a nice present."
Hi Mark and a big Happy Birthday to you Monty! Many more too I hope. :)
Happy Birthday, Monty. We missed you too, Mark.
Hey everyone, thanks for the lovely birthday wishes. :)
Monty J wrote: "Hey everyone, thanks for the lovely birthday wishes. :)"Did you get a cake and blow out the candles?
No cake because I eat low/no carb, but I'm working on the candle thing. My family sang HB over the phone. Here's a link to my blog on Orphanage Birthdays: http://www.wattpad.com/62499579-orpha...
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Either way, the first three that come to mind are all war novels: All Quiet on the Western Front, One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich and Slaughterhouse Five. Then: One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest and Sometimes a Great Notion (both by Ken Kesey) and the films Crash, The Big Chill and Breakfast Club.
I like a character driven plot because I can't predict what's going to happen as I can with most plot-driven works. ..."
Thank you for this list. I have read a few of the books and will add the others to my shelf!