The Catcher in the Rye
discussion
The Most Overrated Books
David wrote: "Cannot abide indecisive Beta-males...they make up a class of protagonists that i do not see in the world of men unless they are getting pounded into hammered shit on the schoolyard. I can see the a..."I don't agree, but at least you explained yourself, I think. Holden was 16 and quite able to get better. Strong men can also be vulnerable, then change, and become better for it.
Karen wrote: "Kallie wrote: "David wrote: "4. I despise The Catcher in the Rye but it is a classic and should be read. "I've been trying to think of what books I can say I despise (whoa). I guess books that a..."
Books are written by human beings who can't help being partial in some respect or other. You could say that Ackley is unfairly drawn since as I recall we see zero that is sympathetic about him. I don't care. I find what Holden says about him (and others) funny because Salinger's writing redeems partiality. Tolstoy's portrayals of women characters are sexist and a reader could excuse that because of 'the times' but what actually redeems this failing is Tolstoy's ability to see and portray his female characters' complexity. Etc. I rate books with 5 stars because I thoroughly enjoy reading them, not because they are perfect.
It takes a great deal of strength to allow one's self the luxury of vulnerability.
Many classics endure, because they are part of The Curriculum. Theodore Dreiser is a classic writer whose use of language and attempts at style are horrible. For example, consider this execrable sentence from his esteemed novel, Sister Carrie:
The, to Carrie, very important theatrical performance was to take place at the Avery on conditions which were to make it more noteworthy than was at first anticipated. (First sentence, Chapter XVII)
Renee....a true woman's perspective. Women and mother's all, most, want us to play nice and share our toys. Not how the world works...and being vulnerable amongst men will get you in a world of hurt.
David wrote: "Cannot abide indecisive Beta-males...they make up a class of protagonists that i do not see in the world of men unless they are getting pounded into hammered shit on the schoolyard. I can see the a..."'Beta-males'? Are we monkeys or wolves? I think many modern humans (here at least) enjoy options outside this strict sort of hierarchy, for example being a human whose strength is intellectual or artistic rather than physical.
Obviously a women's board...ciao
the Catcher in the Rye...by j.d. Salinger
Kallie wrote: " So how is the question better supported on Listopia? (This is not a rhetorical question; I really want to know.) ... On this thread, we are mainly discussing books that we have been encouraged (since forever, so to speak) to read in school, and arguing the merits and demerits of those books. "First let me say that there is a LOT of good stuff in this thread and I like it. I'd also like to augment that with folks participating in LISTOPIA lists.
Listopia better supports this type of discussion in that:
It keeps a tally of books at the top so folks can check in from time to time on a list and see which books have received the most votes as (in this case) Overrated)
Plus you still have all the functionality of a general discussion thread (like this one).
Also:
Each person's votes can be reviewed by each readrr of the list
each book can be reviewed to see who voted for that book to be on the list.
Plus you can place specific comments about why you've voted for a book and you can rank your choices.
The biggest problem with LISTOPIA lists is that many of the people who discuss books (like in this thread) don't know about or care to use the LISTOPIA lists.
David wrote: "Obviously a women's board...ciao"No, not at all. If you look, you will see quite a few men participating. They may not sound as though they'd fight to keep all the food and women for themselves (an Alpha, as I understand the term), but they are men nonetheless.
David wrote: "Renee....a true woman's perspective. Women and mother's all, most, want us to play nice and share our toys. Not how the world works...and being vulnerable amongst men will get you in a world of h..."
There are not only women here, but many men who love TCiTR, some don't. Every human being is vulnerable in some way. I never expect a man to handle his the way a woman would because we are different, and should be. I can respect the fact that you don't like the book.
David wrote: "Renee....a true woman's perspective. Women and mother's all, most, want us to play nice and share our toys. Not how the world works...and being vulnerable amongst men will get you in a world of h..."
Here's an eye-opener, David: it's a helluva lot more dangerous to show any vulnerability around women than it is around men.
It's rare to find someone who wants to share . . . they want you to share. There's a difference.
David wrote: "I was abused with TCiTR in high school and Uni...I see the space it inhabits in the Canon and the reason it is there but it offends my sense of the world and how men move through it; how men see it..."If you had taken you experience of reading these classics and applied it to the Catcher In The Rye you might find that it is written with multiple layers of meaning. I think that people that read it through expecting that it was going to be self explanatory will be disappointed.
Holden says that he is not writing a David Copperfield kinda book. His last name is Caul-field. On the first page of David Copperfield you will see that Salinger has given you a clue to how to read this book. This book is suppose to be read intertextually. A Caul is a veil. It was a talisman for sailors to help keep them from drowning. Maybe that is why he was worried about the rain coming down in the carousel scene.
In my opinion theThe Catcher in the Rye is about media, school conditioning, war, stock markets and international criminals.
If you are interested look at my group
https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...
Leave me a comment.
Cosmic wrote: "David wrote: "I was abused with TCiTR in high school and Uni...I see the space it inhabits in the Canon and the reason it is there but it offends my sense of the world and how men move through it; ..."
I think the Catcher in the Rye is just what it is, a very good book about a troubled teenager in his time. Nothing else, nothing more. I feel that if Salinger wanted to send all those messages, he would have written another book. This " what did the artist mean?" is becoming a bit ridiculous in my opinion. Trust mew, life is simpler than you think.I think if Salinger read theses discussions, he would be laughing.
Maybe if this book was not presented in such a complex over intellectualising way in US schools, more troubled teenagers would read it!
But then, I am a down to earth creature,
Lucie
I think the Catcher in the Rye is just what it is, a very good book about a troubled teenager in his time. Nothing else, nothing more. I feel that if Salinger wanted to send all those messages, he would have written another book. This " what did the artist mean?" is becoming a bit ridiculous in my opinion. Trust mew, life is simpler than you think.I think if Salinger read theses discussions, he would be laughing.
Maybe if this book was not presented in such a complex over intellectualising way in US schools, more troubled teenagers would read it!
But then, I am a down to earth creature,
Lucie
Lucie wrote;"I think the Catcher in the Rye is just what it is, a very good book about a troubled teenager in his time. Nothing else, nothing more. I feel that if Salinger wanted to send all those messages, he would have written another book. This " what did the artist mean?" is becoming a bit ridiculous in my opinion. Trust mew, life is simpler than you think.I think if Salinger read theses discussions, he would be laughing.
Maybe if this book was not presented in such a complex over intellectualising way in US schools, more troubled teenagers would read it!
But then, I am a down to earth creature,
Lucie"
Well said Lucie! Abd I certainly agree- I love this book, and there is no hidden meaning.
Karen wrote: "Lucie wrote;"I think the Catcher in the Rye is just what it is, a very good book about a troubled teenager in his time. Nothing else, nothing more. I feel that if Salinger wanted to send all those..."
I think any really good book, like Catcher, is layered -- inspired by subconscious as well as conscious meaning and choices -- and an artist like Salinger taps into the subconscious rather than following some over-determined plan. I can feel and appreciate those meanings without dragging them out and over-analyzing them -- as with dreams. To me it's plenty interesting just to transcribe the dream or write a poem about it or draw an image from the dream. I'd rather let the meaning sink in without my conscious mind reducing that meaning to words or theories. I'd rather let a good book work on me than vice-versa. To each his or her own, but that's my preference.
Kallie wrote: "think any really good book, like Catcher, is layered -- inspired by subconscious as well as conscious meaning and choices -- and an artist like Salinger taps into the subconscious rather than following some over-determined plan. I can feel and appreciate those meanings without dragging them out and over-analyzing them -- as with dreams..."I don't like to over-analyze either. I never tried to or had the desire to over analyze Anne of Green Gables for instance. But the Catcher is different. It isn't one of those David Copperfield kinda books. It has all kinds of intertextual references that make you wonder why did he start talking about Hamlet, or the Egyptians or Columbus? Why does he find a "fuck you" on the school wall? Or in the Egyptian crypt? I guess these kinds of things just prompt me to ask "what is Salinger trying to say." I am just confused at why it doesn't cause you to do the same thing...but I try not to over-analyze that.
Cosmic wrote: "Kallie wrote: "think any really good book, like Catcher, is layered -- inspired by subconscious as well as conscious meaning and choices -- and an artist like Salinger taps into the subconscious ra..."
Oh it is a free world, over analyse as much as you want to! I am just a " what you see on the label" person
Oh it is a free world, over analyse as much as you want to! I am just a " what you see on the label" person
Cosmic wrote: "Kallie wrote: "think any really good book, like Catcher, is layered -- inspired by subconscious as well as conscious meaning and choices -- and an artist like Salinger taps into the subconscious ra..."Because people may not agree with you, that's why. It's really that simple, so instead of trying to convince people to think about TCiTR the way you do, try to accept the fact that alot of people don't.
Karen wrote: "Because people may not agree with you, that's why. It's really that simple, so instead of trying to convince people to think about TCiTR the way you do, try to accept the fact that alot of people don't. ..."Why?
The majority has been wrong before.
I am sure the Wright brothers faced the same kind of argument that you are giving.
Talking to you all helps me think about my position and strengths it. I have appreciated having you all to discuss it with.
Cosmic wrote: "Karen wrote: "Because people may not agree with you, that's why. It's really that simple, so instead of trying to convince people to think about TCiTR the way you do, try to accept the fact that al..."It doesn't matter- other people have different interpretations of this book, you need to realize this- and in the end, who cares? We are satisfied with our interpretations, and you seem to be in yours. This should be understood and respected.
Wait . . . wasn't one of Holden's problems everyone else's insistence on making him see things like they did?
Jamie Lynn wrote: "Actually, Salinger himself was a little messed up. He really never healed from the war for one thing. I was kind of turned off when I found out that he was into teenaged girls. There will be more S..."Yes, but as I saw it or remember it, he never had sex with anyone under 18. I really think he found comfort with children.
Renee wrote: "Wait . . . wasn't one of Holden's problems everyone else's insistence on making him see things like they did?"Exactly.
I'll say it again. What a person takes away from any work of art is a function of who they are, the sum total of their life experience at that magical moment of experiencing whatever medium of art it is, a painting, a sculpture, or a piece of writing.
Francis Ford Coppola said (paraphrasing), "What's happening on the screen isn't important. The real movie is happening in the minds of the audience."
It's the same with literature.
Absorbing art is experiential, and we slaves to our feelings. Only after analysis and study in a re-reading, or multiple re-readings, do we get a more objective sense of what a story is about.
It is the inverse of Hemingway's Iceberg Principle. We, the readers, supply the submerged larger meaning. And we are all different.
A bee sting is an abstract notion for someone who's never been stung. If the story is about a bee sting, the stung crowd will get a deeper, more intimate sense of what the author is going on about.
It's the same with PTSD or grief or flying an airplane or roller skating or being in love. If you haven't been there, it's going to fly right over your pompadour.
Karen wrote: "We are satisfied with our interpretations, and you seem to be in yours. This should be understood and respected. .."I have always been respectful of your opinion. I have not felt respected for mine, but I didn't take offense. I realize that there are a lot more people that look at this site than just the few that post on it. So I am not writing for your benefit or anyone that wishes to turn the book into a David Copperfield kinda book. Although Holden would...and I think Salinger would too. But since he didn't bother to write you a study guide I guess we will have to do the best we can with what he tells us in the book. I think being consistent has been my guide. To me you do what preachers do, you take something and MAKE it mean what you want it to say. If something else is presented you are so convinced of your own rightness that you can't entertain another view point. So rather than discussing your position (which must have been weak) you start attacking the person that challenged your beliefs. This has been juvenile in my opinion and reminds me of school culture.
Please tell me where you don't agree with me. Or where you do agree with me. Or take a section of the book and expound on its merits. Or tell me something I haven't thought of about the book. I am quite interested in talking about The Catcher In The Rye. That is why I am in this group.
I don't understand why you wish to control me.
Why does a different view bother you so much? How could you have such an invested interest in seeing the book about mental illness that you do not also see that it could be interpreted from the point of view of an allegory about WAR? Why are you so one sided?
I have never said that your view is wrong, but I offer another view point that to me makes better sense. Believe what you need to Karen. But why take offense when someone offers a different view? Why do you think you speak for everyone on this thread or on Goodreads, when you say that we are satisfied with our interpretation? What makes you satisfied and stop questioning the Catcher In The Rye?
Jamie Lynn wrote: "Actually, Salinger himself was a little messed up. He really never healed from the war for one thing. I was kind of turned off when I found out that he was into teenaged girls. There will be more Salinger books in the coming years. I got all of this from an excellent PBS show about him."The PBS documentary was unduly influenced by Joyce Maynard, whose warped (my opinion) view of Salinger was prominently portrayed. In my blog I take her on and expose her distortions.
Here's the blog: http://jdsalinger-me.blogspot.com/201...
I'm in process of revising the blog to supply more citations from Maynard's own publications, proving beyond a doubt her vengeful mercenary exploitation of J.D. Salinger.
There are valid reasons for Salinger's interest in young women, romantically, and teenagers, artistically. That predilection, given his social reticence, makes him vulnerable to salacious criticism and Maynard had/has a mercenary interest in exploiting that vulnerability.
Cosmic wrote: "Karen wrote: "We are satisfied with our interpretations, and you seem to be in yours. This should be understood and respected. .."I have always been respectful of your opinion. I have not felt r..."
I see you are speaking here of yourself. I wrote a rather short review on my profile, if you are interested let me know and I will give you access to it. Other than that, my argument is finished.
Monty J wrote: "Jamie Lynn wrote: "Actually, Salinger himself was a little messed up. He really never healed from the war for one thing. I was kind of turned off when I found out that he was into teenaged girls. T..."Agreed. What I really can't stand was her declaration that she was gorgeous, she wasn't. Attractive, not gorgeous-there's a big difference.
Monty J wrote: "I'm in process of revising the blog to supply more citations from Maynard's own publications, proving beyond a doubt her vengeful mercenary exploitation of J.D. Salinger.There are valid reasons for Salinger's interest in young women, romantically, and teenagers, artistically. That predilection, given his social reticence, makes him vulnerable to salacious criticism and Maynard had/has a mercenary interest in exploiting that vulnerability.
..."
Monte I agree with you here. I think there is a lot we may not know. My children have always had friends of all ages. I don't think that anyone sued Salinger over his interest that he Amy have taken in them. It wasn't uncommon for girls to marry older men just a century before.
Example:On September 23, 1862, Tolstoy married Sophia Andreevna Behrs, who was 16 years his junior and the daughter of a court physician. She was called Sonya, the Russian diminutive of Sofya, by her family and friends.[11] They had thirteen children:[12]
He was 34 and she was in her teens....18.
I don't here people focusing on what a pervert Tolstoy was.
I think Salinger was isolated in his views on the war. He couldn't talk about it with those of his generation because for one thing they were the victors so you couldn't be honest about what had happened. You were forced to agree that they had done what they had to do. I don't think that this was Salinger was convinced of. I think he knew better. He went to a military high school so he had a good idea about strategies. He could see the weaknesses in war and the advantages of it. He had a privileged knowledge that states men and politicians get. He used this knowledge against them when he wrote the Catcher In The Rye.
Karen wrote: "I see you are speaking here of yourself. I wrote a rather short review on my profile, if you are interested let me know and I will give you access to it. Other than that, my argument is finished. ..."I would love to see what you think. I won't argue with you about it as I think reading a book is personal. You get out of it what you need...and where you are at the time. I am not interested in alienating you. As I have said there are many different interpretations to this book and this is what will keep it a classic. It is not in my opinion a book you will get by reading it with one pass.
Cosmic wrote: "Karen wrote: "I see you are speaking here of yourself. I wrote a rather short review on my profile, if you are interested let me know and I will give you access to it. Other than that, my argument ..."Thank you Cosmic, good post. :)
Just go to my profile, click on the book.You will see though, that my interpretation is pretty conventional like many others here on goodreads, but it is truly how I feel about it.
David wrote: Women and mother's all, most, want us to play nice and share our toys. Not how the world works...and being vulnerable amongst men will get you in a world of hurt. Been watching a little too much Mad Men?
Paul Martin wrote: "David wrote: Women and mother's all, most, want us to play nice and share our toys. Not how the world works...and being vulnerable amongst men will get you in a world of hurt. Been watching a lit..."
Ha! Good one. It's hard to believe things were like that then, but they were.
Jamie Lynn wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Monty J wrote: "I'm in process of revising the blog to supply more citations from Maynard's own publications, proving beyond a doubt her vengeful mercenary exploitation of J.D. Salin..."A pedophile preys on prepubescent children. If we call Salinger a pedophile, what do we call them? I think we should respect language and accurate definitions. If you want to call him a 'perv' that's another thing entirely and comes across as what it is: an opinion rather than an extreme and inaccurate label.
It makes no difference what era dirty old men, pedophiles, and leches were acceptable.Does being a grown man with a preference for young (but legally of age) girls equate to being a pedophile? Come on.
Paul Martin wrote: "It makes no difference what era dirty old men, pedophiles, and leches were acceptable.Does being a grown man with a preference for young (but legally of age) girls equate to being a pedophile? Co..."
And on the flip side- when I was 20 I went out with a man who was 45, I knew exactly what I was doing.
A pedophile preys on prepubescent children.Well, not necessarily... Or, it depends on how you define it. There was an article in the newspaper a couple of years back where a pedophile described how it felt to be one. He had never acted on it, because he knew it was wrong. He even had children himself, but he said that he was never sexually attracted to them, just like most straight males aren't attracted to their sisters or vice versa. Pedophilia isn't a crime in itself, but acting on it is. Just like having AIDS isn't a crime, while willfully passing infecting someone else with it is, in some countries.
Paul Martin wrote: "A pedophile preys on prepubescent children.Well, not necessarily... Or, it depends on how you define it. There was an article in the newspaper a couple of years back where a pedophile described h..."
Well, that's a good distinction I guess. But people who molest children are pedophiles, and usually compulsive which is why no one wants those on probation in their neighborhood. So the guy you speak of . . . maybe there are 50 shades of pedophile and we only hear about the compulsive ones just as we only hear of bad, life-destroying drug habits.
Paul Martin wrote: "A pedophile preys on prepubescent children.Well, not necessarily... Or, it depends on how you define it. There was an article in the newspaper a couple of years back where a pedophile described h..."
This is entirely correct. It is not always acted upon. The 18 year old that Tolstoy married was of age and from what I read, loved him. We should be careful not to label these much younger women as victims, we could certainly think for ourselves. I liked older men at the time, so did my mother-in-law, she was 20 years younger than her husband.
Kallie wrote: "Paul Martin wrote: "A pedophile preys on prepubescent children.Well, not necessarily... Or, it depends on how you define it. There was an article in the newspaper a couple of years back where a p..."
Probably! Because the man (or woman) down the street who is one isn't going to tell us, and do we want to hear everyones inner thoughts? I don't.
Next time a teacher is arrested for sleeping with a high school student maybe the jurors should read these posts.It seems to be acceptable with some people.Are you serious? Nobody is saying that it's okay for an adult to have sex with a child, or a high school teacher with his student. If you really think that a 45 year old having a relationship with an 18-year old is a pedophile, then you, my dear, are a narrow minded idiot.
If that is not what you meant, I apologize in advance.
Well, that's a good distinction I guess. But people who molest children are pedophiles, and usually compulsive Yeah, I've heard that it's usually compulsive. I don't know, it could, in theory, have been a fabricated story, but who on earth would want to do something like that? Besides, the newspaper claimed to know the identity of the person. It was printed in probably the most serious newspaper in our not-so-large country. And I suppose that most pedophiles who have been the subject of research are the ones the have been caught. I can't imagine a pedophile with the ability to restrain himself turning himself in for research...
And then again the author is not that important. Like wise Wilde once wrote: To reveal art and conceal the artist is at art's aim.
Jamie Lynn wrote: "Next time a teacher is arrested for sleeping with a high school sJamie Lynn wrote: "Next time a teacher is arrested for sleeping with a high school student maybe the jurors should read these posts. It seems to be acceptable with some people. Interesting...personally if it was my k..."
?? If you are refering to me also, what have I said that makes you think that I find teachers sleeping with HS students acceptable? Tolstoy and his wife? That's a stretch, isn't it? A teacher is in an authoritative position- it's never acceptable.
Sebastian wrote: "And then again the author is not that important. Like wise Wilde once wrote: To reveal art and conceal the artist is at art's aim."Unless it's an auto-biographical writer, like Kerouac and some others.
Sebastian wrote: "And then again the author is not that important. Like wise Wilde once wrote: To reveal art and conceal the artist is at art's aim."
Yes. Call me weird, but for me, real life or character of an artist is completely separated from his/her books or other art.
In a gallery , looking at a painting, I could not care less who the person was and what he/ she was like.
I would object to a book glorifying crime, paedophilia or else.
But what any artists do in their free time does not concern me personally.So I agree with Oscar Wilde.
Yes. Call me weird, but for me, real life or character of an artist is completely separated from his/her books or other art.
In a gallery , looking at a painting, I could not care less who the person was and what he/ she was like.
I would object to a book glorifying crime, paedophilia or else.
But what any artists do in their free time does not concern me personally.So I agree with Oscar Wilde.
Jamie Lynn wrote: "Next time a teacher is arrested for sleeping with a high school student maybe the jurors should read these posts. It seems to be acceptable with some people. Interesting...personally if it was my k..."If you read my post you'll see that I'm objecting to your use of the word 'pedophilia' in relation to Salinger. There is of course statutory rape, which refers to having sex with someone not a child, but underage (still not pedophilia). A girl 18 years old is of age and no matter how you or I feel about it, consensual sex with her is not pedophilia.
Kallie wrote: "Jamie Lynn wrote: "Next time a teacher is arrested for sleeping with a high school student maybe the jurors should read these posts. It seems to be acceptable with some people. Interesting...person..."
yep
yep
Kallie wrote: "A girl 18 years old is of age and no matter how you or I feel about it, consensual sex with her is not pedophilia. ..."
Right. Using your logic, Jamie Lynn, Tolstoy would be a pedophile. Her parents would be complicit in the act.
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Holden will spend his life on a psychiatrist's couch...never marry and discover he was gay all along...again nothing wrong with that but it would answer a great many questions the text elides to.