The Most Overrated Books Showing 2,601-2,650 of 5,680

[[deleted user]]

Waiting for Godot is the only one here I disagree with. Catcher and Gatsby I love, but I do think that they don't deserve the hype. Catcher is basically just J.D. Salinger trying to make a point, and Gatsby is way too popular now (at least with the people I know) because of the recent movie version.

[Karen]

Emma wrote: "Waiting for Godot is the only one here I disagree with. Catcher and Gatsby I love, but I do think that they don't deserve the hype. Catcher is basically just J.D. Salinger trying to make a point, a..."

What point was Salinger trying to make in writing TCITR?

[Monty J]

Karen wrote: "What point was Salinger trying to make in writing TCiTR?"

The redemptive power of unconditional love. What can be greater than realizing you love someone and they love you right back, maybe stronger--old Holden sitting there in his red "people hunting" cap, crying in the rain, watching old Phoebe go 'round and 'round, after fussing over her, making sure she had her tickets, with "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes" playing, "They asked me how I knew, our true love was true...".

The song that was playing as they approached the carousel was "Oh Marie," "Oh Marie (oh Marie) In your arms I'm longing to be... ." It's the climax scene, where the point of the book is revealed.

[[deleted user]]

Karen wrote: "Did you finish Ulysses? I think you are correct about the literature criteria, but I don't like The Mona Lisa."

No not yet but I already read the ending a couple of times. I see how you can dislike the Mona Lisa but I have to say that it sets a standard of beauty.

[Monty J]

If you really want to stop a conversation, change the topic to love. Nobody wants to be accused of sentimentality. It's a high emotional-index subject guaranteed to make people nervous.

Holden never mentions the word "love" during the entire book. He shows it happening and lets the lyrics to songs say it on his behalf.

His code word for a broader concept of love is "missing." The last lines of the book: "About all I know is, I sort of miss everybody I told about. Even old Stradlater and Ackley, for instance. I think I even miss that goddam Maurice. It's funny. Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do you start missing everybody."

He's matured from a budding misanthrope into someone who embraces humankind, warts and all.

[Karen]

Monty J wrote: "If you really want to stop a conversation, change the topic to love. Nobody wants to be accused sentimentality. It's a high emotional-index subject guaranteed to make people nervous.

Holden never ..."


When I wrote the below sentence, I was responding to Emmas post on the previous page, where she stated that Salinger was just trying to make a point. I like to talk about love!!
Karen wrote; "What point was Salinger trying to make in writing TCITR?"

[Monty J]

Edward wrote: "...Salinger equated innocence with the retention of the ability to unconditionally love,..."

I agree. I think the point is driven home in CiTR, and I think Salinger's lifestyle of social reticence and dating much younger women reflects this belief.

After being jilted in a most cruel manner by 18-year-old Oona O'Neil, Salinger within three years married a woman more his age who turned out to be a closet Nazi--perhaps proof (in his mind) that older women couldn't be trusted; so he stuck with younger, less experienced, more innocent, choices for companionship.

It goes both ways, though. I've been hit on by much younger women and found it both flattering and discomfiting. Wondered what I had done to attract the attention. Felt icky.

I understand the premise that unconditional love and innocence are theoretically entwined, but innocence is so rare these days. The premise may be dated. Vampire and slasher movies seem to be everywhere.

[Cosmic]

Edward wrote: "Obvious to me is that Salinger equated innocence with the retention of the ability to unconditionally love, a temporary state of insanity as currently defined by the psychology drug dispensing indu..."


In what ways does the Catcher talk about love/ unconditional love? I may have missed it.

What does love have to do with the fish or the ducks? I think those are such huge themes in THE CATCHER IN THE RYE that these motifs must be understood before making assumptions about the rest of the book.

[Monty J]

Cosmic wrote: "In what ways does the Catcher talk about love/ unconditional love?"

The concept is illustrated, shown, not told. I just described the scene above which illustrates it.

Women know how to get their point across when the chips are down, even at Phoebe's tender age. She digs in her heels, throws a fit, making Holden promise not to run away. Because of this demonstration of the depth of Phoebe's devotion, Holden realizes she's doing it because she loves him, wants him to be safe and come home and return to school.

The realization makes him so happy he begins to cry. He shows his love by fussing over her, making sure she gets her favorite horse on the carousel, watching over her, crying. Teenage guys don't cry, right? But he's "practically bawling." And as if that weren't enough, Salinger practically spells it out with those two songs ("Oh Marie" and "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes".)

Holden wanted Sally Hayes to run away with him, but all she wanted was a placeholder, someone with whom to trim the Christmas tree, skate and go to the theater with. All Jane Gallagher wanted was someone to play golf and checkers with, hold hands with in a movie.

There was no one in Holden's life available, not parents, not friends, not teachers, to let Holden know he was loved except Phoebe. She proved her love by the fierce way she stood her ground to keep him safe. Phoebe represents family and clan or tribe. People are social creatures like most animals, higher forms of which are capable of love. It's a bonding emotion with survival implications.

If a writer has to STATE the obvious, it ruins it for the reader, cheats the reader of that glorious "Ah-ha" moment of discovery, or worse, insults the reader's intelligence by coaching or tutoring him.

But by not spelling it out, he/she runs the risk that some readers won't get it. Herein lies the artistry--the use of symbols, metaphors, mood setting (e.g. rain).

The author strikes a balance between showing and telling, with the knowledge that some readers will get it and others will walk away shaking their heads or come up with interpretations that the author hadn't anticipated. It is human nature that we tend to find what we are capable of seeing, or need to, or not find what or need to NOT see.

Cosmic wrote: "What does love have to do with the fish or the ducks?"

The fish and ducks are covered in detail in a separate thread. Ducks flying south and the "part frozen, and part not frozen" pond symbolize Holden's transitional state--neither boy nor man. The fish symbolize nature, a reminder that a natural process ("Mother Nature") is taking place. The seasons come and go; we live; we die; we get sick; we get well; we get hurt; we heal.

It is a brilliant book. A masterpiece.

[Renee E]

There's naught more boring than literal literature.

That's why *They* keep hammering away at writers with "SHOW, DON'T TELL!"

[Cosmic]

Monty J wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "In what ways does the Catcher talk about love/ unconditional love?"

The concept is illustrated, shown, not told. I just described the scene above which illustrates it.

Women know h..."

You have brought up some interesting points that I would like to take time to think about. I am going on vacation and will be back next week. I will give a response then.

Have a great weekend everyone!

Be a Catcher in the Rye...however you may see yourself able to do this.

[Cosmic]

Edward wrote: "THE FIRST WORD THAT CAME TO MY MIND WAS INNOCENCE. A BIT LATER TRUST. MAYBE THEY'RE ALL THE SAME THING. IF THESE CONCEPTS AND BELIEFS ARE DATED, I WANT A TIME MACHINE."

Can you be more specific? I mean where in the story did you see this and why was this the main theme of the novel, in your opinion? I don't think that you are wrong or that there's necessarily a correct answer, but I saw this same "explanation" in Clifnotes, and I realized they left out significant parts in order to come up with their interpretation.

If you look at the comments that I have made in this thread you will see that I view The Catcher In The Rye as an allegory about war, money, power and the media/education. I think that it should be studied like you would Ulysses, because there are so many intertextual references imbedded in the text. At the time the book was written these references were familiar but now they are dated. So many people think that they can just read the book and figure out the storyline. But I beg to differ, because the author put the intertextual "information" in their for a reason.

Have you watched the movie that Holden took Phoebe too 10 times? How did you think that relate to the story? Why was it in the book? Why talk about movies at all, when he tells you in the first chapter that he hates the movies?

[Karen]

Edward wrote: "To Cosmic. Yeah, I did look at the comments you made on this thread. And I regret sounding as trite as Clifnotes, which I didn't bother to read. I only used them in college when the goddamn drunken..."

Lol !

[Cosmic]

Edward wrote: "To Cosmic. Yeah, I did look at the comments you made on this thread. And I regret sounding as trite as Clifnotes, which I really didn't bother to read. I only used them in college when the goddamn ..."
Here is a link to the movie:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4v7vU...

Here is the link to the book: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-i92a...

Or

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Th...

Or

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/558


If you watch the movie and read just the first chapter it has got to make you wonder why he included this book/movie unless you read it in the context with what you know of the author. Then you have to question what does it have to do with Phoebe/education/and the THE THIRTY - NINE STEPS (which is not the same story as the movie. The movie only mentions the book. The book was the first spy book. This is interesting since there is a spy named in The Catcher in The Rye. Plus Salinger's reference to the OSS and another spy AIG. Did you find these references?

Let me know if you watch the movie and read at least the first chapter of the book.

Another thing to do with the book. Holden's for a good Good-bye. How did he get it? One of the names that is mentioned in that section is in the book THE THIRTY - NINE STEPS

Another one that is named in that section has a very interesting and significant history in light of the movie and school.

[Cosmic]

Edward wrote: "To Cosmic. Yeah, I did look at the comments you made on this thread. And I regret sounding as trite as Clifnotes, which I really didn't bother to read. I only used them in college when the goddamn ..."

Here is the section from The Catcher in the Rye from page 2:
Anyway, it was December and all, and it was cold as a witch's teat, especially on top of that stupid hill. I only had on my reversible and no gloves or anything. The week before that, somebody'd stolen my camel's-hair coat right out of my room, with my furlined gloves right in the pocket and all. Pencey was full of crooks. Quite a few guys came from these very wealthy families, but it was full of crooks anyway. The more expensive a school is, the more crooks it has--I'm not kidding. Anyway, I kept standing next to that crazy cannon, looking down at the game and freezing my ass off. Only, I wasn't watching the game too much. What I was really hanging around for, I was trying to feel some kind
of a good-by. I mean I've left schools and places I didn't even know I was leaving them. I hate that. I don't care if it's a sad good-by or a bad goodby, but when I leave a place I like to know I'm leaving it. If you don't, you feel even worse. I was lucky. All of a sudden I thought of something that helped make me know I was getting the hell out. I suddenly remembered this time, in around October, that I and Robert Tichener and Paul Campbell were chucking a football around, in front of the academic building. They were nice guys, especially Tichener. It was just before dinner and it was getting pretty dark out, but we kept chucking the ball around anyway. It kept getting darker and darker, and we could hardly see the ball any more, but we didn't want to stop doing what we were doing. Finally we had to. This teacher that taught biology, Mr. Zambesi, stuck his head out of this window in the academic building and told us to go back to the dorm and get ready for dinner. If I get a chance to remember that kind of stuff, I can get a good-by when I need one--at least, most of the time I can. As soon as I got it, I turned around and started running down the other side of the hill, toward old Spencer's house. He didn't live on the campus. He lived on Anthony Wayne Avenue.

He mentions one of the guys twice. Type the last name into Google and read Wikipedia on him.

The other name is mentioned here and in the book THE THIRTY - NINE STEPS but in the spirit of show don't tell...I won't tell you which one.

Another one of the names here coined the phrase "the survival of the fittest". Another man named was considered a trader/treasonous.

[Monty J]

Cosmic wrote: "Edward wrote: "To Cosmic. Yeah, I did look at the comments you made on this thread. And I regret sounding as trite as Clifnotes, which I really didn't bother to read. I only used them in college wh..."

No offense Cosmic, but you're being a pain in the ass. If you have a point to make, make it, instead of playing guessing games and jerking people around, making them watch movies and go on treasure hunts. You throw out teasers and then expect people to slug their way up Cosmic's mountain to your exalted alter of knowledge.

It makes me wonder if you really want to communicate or just see how many chains you can yank. You have some intriguing ideas, but you're like a spoiled kid with a new parlor game. You make other would be players jump through hoops for the privilege of playing.

Go ahead and make your point, providing references, and if we want to explore them we will. But if I feel manipulated into it, I resist. And I suspect I'm not the only one.

[Leslie]

Monty J wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Edward wrote: "To Cosmic. Yeah, I did look at the comments you made on this thread. And I regret sounding as trite as Clifnotes, which I really didn't bother to read. I only used the..."

You're not the only one. Total turnoff. Feels more ram-rod than manipulation, and a little cuckoo for cocoa puffs in presentation. I'm wondering when the spaceship is going to land and Elvis is going to get off.

[Cosmic]

Monty J wrote: "No offense Cosmic, but you're being a pain in the ass. If you have a point to make, make it, ..."

Hi Monty,
I just learned something new by following the links that I gave about the person that is mentioned twice on page 2. And then links off that man's site till I read about
contiguity

A contiguity is a continuous mass, or a series of things in contact or in proximity. In a different meaning, contiguity is the state of being contiguous.[1] The concept was first set out in the Law of Contiguity (one of Aristotle's Laws of Association) which states that things that occur near each other in time or space are readily associated.

I think that this explains what I am talking about when it comes to the paragraphs that I quoted from page 2 of The Catcher In The Rye. I get very excited about these associations that Salinger has put in his book. I am not the one that wrote The Catcher in the Rye. I am glad that you like it as much as I do!

If you gave it a 5 I don't see how discussing the book can disturb you.

Have you seen the movie The Thirty Nine Steps? It was one of Salinger's favorite movies.

Leslie have you read The Catcher in the Rye yet? You haven't rated it so I wasn't sure.

[Karen]

Leslie wrote:
"You're not the only one. Total turnoff. Feels more ram-rod than manipulation, and a little cuckoo for cocoa puffs in presentation. I'm wondering when the spaceship is going to land and Elvis is going to get off."

ROTFLOL !!

[Karen]

Cosmic wrote: "I am not the one that wrote The Catcher in the Rye. I am glad that you like it as much as I do!"

I think we know you're not the one who wrote it.

"If you gave it a 5 I don't see how discussing the book can disturb you."

Monty has discussed this book at length, it is your approach that is annoying people.
You need to stop. Stop trying to manipulate this thread by posting the same thing over and over expecting people to do as you ask. It's tiring and a real turn off.

[Leslie]

Cosmic wrote: "Monty J wrote: "No offense Cosmic, but you're being a pain in the ass. If you have a point to make, make it, ..."

Hi Monty,
I just learned something new by following the links that I gave about th..."

Yes, I have. I didn't rate it. Find the hidden meaning.

[Michael]

Wow, has this thread deteriorated. Any sense in continuing?

[Leslie]

Michael wrote: "Wow, has this thread deteriorated. Any sense in continuing?"

No, probably not, IMHO.

[[deleted user]]

Are you all having fun why I am working? Doesn't look like it.

[Leslie]

Lucie wrote: "Are you all having fun why I am working? Doesn't look like it."

We've fallen down the rabbit hole. TGIF!

[[deleted user]]

What is TGIF? Curious

[Leslie]

Lucie wrote: "What is TGIF? Curious"

It has a deeply complex and coded meaning. It is the super secret...you can keep a secret can't you? Well, I'll just have to trust you. The T...that represents thanks...thanking... The G, well, I think we all know what "G" stands for. I plays an important linking role...I is for "it's"... notice it is the "it is" it's and not the possessive its...so this is really for everyone...but still a secret. Okay, so the F... F is for Friday, which represents the day of Frigg...which one could take back to the G... So, you see, TGIF is really a secret code for feminist power. But just once a week.

[Renee E]

Thank Gandalf It's Frigg's-day :D

Pity I don't have a Futhark font . . .

[Karen]

Leslie wrote; "Yes, I have. I didn't rate it. Find the hidden meaning"

Rabbit hole or not, at least you're funny!
Can we have fun NOW? We could go to the other thread, I just finished The Great Gatsby again.

[Kallie]

Leslie wrote: "Lucie wrote: "Are you all having fun why I am working? Doesn't look like it."

We've fallen down the rabbit hole. TGIF!"

Ha. This is not the only white rabbit thread on Goodreads, Leslie, as you probably know.

Have we run out of overrated books or authors? That just doesn't seem possible although I fervently hope we've heard enough about those in the initial post, which have been argued to death dozens of times already.

I vote John Updike overrated and would be interested to hear why I should give him another chance.

[Karen]

Lucie wrote: "What is TGIF? Curious"

It means thank goodness it's friday. Nice to "see" you Lucie.
Oh, duh... I just noticed Leslie's explanation above, which is more interesting than mine.

[Leslie]

Kallie wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Lucie wrote: "Are you all having fun why I am working? Doesn't look like it."

We've fallen down the rabbit hole. TGIF!"

Ha. This is not the only white rabbit thread on Goodreads,..."


Oh nice tie-in! - I haven't read his Rabbit books.

[Renee E]

"`Cheshire Puss,' she began, rather timidly, as she did not at all know whether it would like the name: however, it only grinned a little wider. `Come, it's pleased so far,' thought Alice, and she went on. `Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?'

`That depends a good deal on where you want to get to,' said the Cat.

`I don't much care where--' said Alice.

`Then it doesn't matter which way you go,' said the Cat.

`--so long as I get SOMEWHERE,' Alice added as an explanation.

`Oh, you're sure to do that,' said the Cat, `if you only walk long enough.'

Alice felt that this could not be denied, so she tried another question. `What sort of people live about here?'

`In THAT direction,' the Cat said, waving its right paw round, `lives a Hatter: and in THAT direction,' waving the other paw, `lives a March Hare. Visit either you like: they're both mad.'

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.

`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'

`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.

`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.' "

[[deleted user]]

Leslie wrote: "Lucie wrote: "What is TGIF? Curious"

It has a deeply complex and coded meaning. It is the super secret...you can keep a secret can't you? Well, I'll just have to trust you. The T...that represe..."

Thank you for trusting me with a secret, I am a doctor- will keep your confidentiality! Do not want to be struck off, although of course, you are not a patient. I find abbreviation hard, English is only my 5th language although I use it a lot so it is my second best now)

[Karen]

Jamie Lynn wrote: "The Great Gatsby was assigned to us in school 100 years ago. Very dull."

An opinion.

[Monty J]

Leslie wrote: "Lucie wrote: "What is TGIF? Curious"

It has a deeply complex and coded meaning. It is the super secret...you can keep a secret can't you? Well, I'll just have to trust you. The T...that represe..."

ROTFLMAO!!!

You made my day, Leslie.

[[deleted user]]

Jamie Lynn wrote: "James Patterson is overrated but he no longer writes his own books. Danielle Steele is overrated. Every book she writes is the same."

So how many did you read to find out about Danielle Steele's book being all the same. I once read half of oboe of her books on holiday, did not ifnish it- life seemed too short.

[Karen]

Kallie wrote; "I vote John Updike overrated and would be interested to hear why I should give him another chance."

I have been thinking that also, I read one of his Rabbit books decades ago and could not get into it. I've often thought I should try him again, not sure why.

[[deleted user]]

NO, I like romance in life , but not in literature

[Leslie]

Lucie wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Lucie wrote: "What is TGIF? Curious"

It has a deeply complex and coded meaning. It is the super secret...you can keep a secret can't you? Well, I'll just have to trust you. The T..."

"Medicine" is my 3rd language...so it's mostly consonants and unintelligible. ;)

[Leslie]

Karen wrote: "Kallie wrote; "I vote John Updike overrated and would be interested to hear why I should give him another chance."

I have been thinking that also, I read one of his Rabbit books decades ago and co..."

Perhaps it's the Pulitzer? Most of the Pulitzers I have read are over-rated. Recently gagged down Martin Dressler. But if you want to dissect it for hidden meaning and societal ills...well, it doesn't even do that very well either...skip it.

[Karen]

Jamie Lynn wrote: "Yes it is Karen. I'm sure that most disagree because it's still extremely popular. :)"

I welcome opinions, don't get me wrong. :) I just like explanations to go with them, and I kindof asked for it since I brought it up.

[Karen]

Lucie wrote: "NO, I like romance in life , but not in literature"

Love and sex in literature is good too! If done well. :)

[Karen]

Leslie wrote: "Karen wrote: "Kallie wrote; "I vote John Updike overrated and would be interested to hear why I should give him another chance."

I have been thinking that also, I read one of his Rabbit books deca..."

I probably will skip it. One of my faults (well maybe) in reading is that I won't read anything that may be considered just okay. That is very limiting, but it's the same with music. I have to like it alot or love it- there's no room for experimenting much.

[Leslie]

Edward wrote: "Jamie Lynn wrote: "The Great Gatsby was assigned to us in school 100 years ago. Very dull."

Someone said "An opinion." What isn't?

Please explain why anyone is using this thread to discuss James ..."

The list in the OP includes both literary and commercially successful examples. Twilight isn't exactly high literature, and Harry Potter has been mentioned, also formulaic genre fiction...so it's just over-rated books as the topic, not any specific type.

[Cosmic]

Edward wrote: "I truly thank the people who have written things which seem to support my comments. Unlike Michael and Leslie, I find this thread now more interesting than ever. I am also swayed by Cosmic's interp..."

Thank you Edward. I am not sure why all the bantering from the others on this group. I also like different points of view. I have not ever disparaged them for a difference of opinion. I believe there can be many different interpretation of a book but the one that make the most sense is the one that I have studied.

One of the things that I was studying today was "Central Park South." Every time Holden mentions the ducks he specifically mentions this area. He is not talking about all of central park or all of New York or New England. He is talking about Central Park South.

I am not from NYC. I have been there but not since reading The Catcher In The Rye. So I was interested in what this area is like. I found Wiki to give the best description.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centra...

I wonder if there is anyone on this group that is familiar with this area?

I was looking at a map of the place and one of the places was called Strawberry Fields. Strange because that reminded me of the Beatles song....Strawberry Fields
http://www.metrolyrics.com/strawberry...

Maybe I shouldn't mention this song because I seem to have so many enemies on this thread. But John Lennon's assassination and association with The Catcher in The Rye made me not want to read it. Then after I read it I was kinda disappointed because I thought there should have been some connection like the media was trying to create between the book and this act. I couldn't and never have been able to see it...till I saw the place "Strawberry Fields"


Ok I just read here that it was a memorial to John Lennon.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawb...

But the lyrics are very similar to the "disappearing" that Holden expresses.

[[deleted user]]

Leslie wrote: "Karen wrote: "Kallie wrote; "I vote John Updike overrated and would be interested to hear why I should give him another chance."

I have been thinking that also, I read one of his Rabbit books deca..."

Oh I love some PUlitzer winners like The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao or A Confederacy of Dunces
All the King's Men
The Bridge of San Luis Rey and many others.
But I recently did not ifnish Goldfinch

[Leslie]

Lucie wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Karen wrote: "Kallie wrote; "I vote John Updike overrated and would be interested to hear why I should give him another chance."

I have been thinking that also, I read one of his Ra..."

I couldn't finish Goldfinch either! Liked All the King's Men, but haven't had time for Wao or Dunces (I think the latter would be a miss for me).

[Monty J]

Lucie wrote: "NO, I like romance in life , but not in literature"

(I'm going to msg you my number, so when you get to San Francisco...)

[Leslie]

San Francisco *sigh* God I miss the Bay Area...