The Most Overrated Books Showing 2,401-2,450 of 5,680

[Petergiaquinta]

But as the narrator, Holden tells us his story from a California rest home/mental hospital, somewhere near Hollywood. We know that because D.B. works in Hollywood, and he is a regular visitor to Holden. Just like Huck Finn, Holden has gone West but for a bit of a different reason.

[Karen]

Petergiaquinta wrote: "But as the narrator, Holden tells us his story from a California rest home/mental hospital, somewhere near Hollywood. We know that because D.B. Works in Hollywood, and he is a regular visitor to Ho..."

Oh! I assumed when Holden said D.B. drove over here, he meant NYC- which also has a few excellent psychiatric hospitals. I see your point though, California is a long way for a drive.

Oh duh! I had to edit this- it's the beginning of the story where Holden says he is near D.B., where he says he isn't too far from him. Sorry Cosmic!

[Kallie]

Monty J wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Does anyone remember where he admits he is in an asylum?"

Its on the last page. Or the first page. Or both.

Bullying is treated in two places: the hazing that led to James Castle's..."

I suppose Stradlater and Ackley are manipulative rather than bullying; sometimes there is a fine line between the two types of behavior. Holden despises both.

[Cosmic]

Paul Martin wrote: "I have always wondered about the social aspect of homeschooling children - how does it influence the personality of a child to not be able to participate in the daily activities at school with othe..."

They grow up with more self confidence that is from an internal strength because they have not had to conform to the herd or the mold. They have managed their education through what came naturally for them.

Like Holden says of his school:"They don't do any damn more moldingat Pencey than they do at school. And I didn't know anybody there that was splendid and clear-thinking and all. Maybe two guys. If that many. And they probably came to Pencey Prep that way."

They have time! Which is much more valuable than than being placed in a classroom where the teacher spends a great deal of her time trying to control thirty or more students. They can focus because their are less interruptions and no bells to break up their day.

They can have friends over when it is convenient for them or when they go outside of their home for a class.

My children enrolled in a science class in Maine that was just for Homeschooler. The science teacher was retired. He had been named teacher of the year in Maine several times. So homeschoolers can take advantage of their days. In Boston we got 1.00 passes to see the major museums and a one time pass to see the National History Museum at Harvard University. We have time to answer our children's questions. We learn from each other. We learn from other adults....this is a very huge advantage that my children have gotten over other children in my opinion. My children have been "adopted" by adults because they saw that they were teachable but more than that they were well behaved and fun to be around. Most school children that we have met are like energized bunnies or have on a thick veneer that makes them less approachable. I guess you might say they have a protective coat on their personality.

I think it is strange to me anyway that because people in this day and age went to school that they talk about it as some kind of norm when most of history mankind has not been incubated in rooms and read to in a hive.

Just because this is the norm now or the norm for you it wasn't the way people were meant to be raised or the best way to raise people, in my opinion and in others. Read this book The Underground History of American Education: An Intimate Investigation Into the Prison of Modern Schooling and you will see where this first began and for what purpose.

So when my children are at home and learning they learn things that interest them and that are related to what they are doing. I would say science and math were the boys strong points of my boys and language and arts were my daughter's strong point. Because of the internet my children were able to develop many relationships with children and people in America as well as over seas. They were not confined to just the kids in their neighborhood, city or state. Because they did not have to get up at the crack of dawn, they could set hours that worked better for them so that they could have friends in other countries.

My children's experience with talking to children that go to public school is that they play games and hate homework, but they really aren't doing anything. They don't have any amazing experiences. They don't have any hobbies. When they find out what my children have been doing they start taking a "poor me" attitude.

We don't take exotic vacations. But we do involve ourselves in community service. Our children have helped out with the local food co-op, children's theater (girl was an actress and the boys ran lights), they took blacksmithing classes, art classes from professional art instructors, did Ham Radio, built and fixed computers, they have even fixed computer problems for their friends over the internet. My children have had groups that they have managed in computer games and in real life. They have their own "First Person View" flying club which has people in it that range from 16 to 60. My children have never experienced the generation gap. Just like the real world is not age specific, my children have not been sheltered into only their age group. As a result they get along with a lot of different people and are not shy or feel awkward around adults.

Do I know how to do everything that my children know? No I don't. Did it keep my children from pursuing what interested them. No, and especially not with the internet. If they are interested in how to do something they can listen to a professional or an experienced amateur talk about it on YouTube. If they want to learn a language (my daughter has self taught two Japanese and Russian) she can connect with native speakers on line. Plus she can watch films in those languages with close caption. She get recipes off line from the country that she is studying. She learns about their native dress and embroidery. She draws and paints their most famous buildings. She reads about their history and the history of the world.Nicholas and Alexandra
She has read Master and Margarita in Russian. She did all this before she was 18. She takes a sewing class every week and has made costumes for a show that she is the MC. The show is aired live over the internet. She participated in a fashion show that helped raise money for a non profit organization that teaches people about human powered vehicles. She loves taking pictures. She designed a logo for a friend's business.

Well I could go on, but I think you get the picture. My children do not feel deprived as much as they feel children in school are. They feel free to be themselves. I think they understand real freedom. It means having choices.

[Renee E]

The homeschool/public school war is going to be never ending. Neither side will accept or admit that, for different children, different families, both have their place.

I would likely have self-destructed if I'd been homeschooled, given my home situation. It would have given far too much control to a dangerously sociopathic mother. School was my haven. It was the only place I COULD be a real person, an individual, not having to watch every word, every thought, to avoid Her Supreme Displeasure and Vengeance. It also allowed me to ask questions without having to flinch or steel myself for the backlash.

I never felt any peer pressure, maybe it's something within me, but it just did not affect me. It seemed silly to have to be like everyone else. And weak. And I could never afford to be weak.

School bullies? They left me alone. I was the one the bullied kids came and stood behind. And never once did I have to strike out physically. School bullies were child's play compared to the bullying that waited for me at home. Bullying teachers didn't hold much power over me either.

I've got a story on the backburner right now, the opening line is "it was always dark when I got home from school."

For other kids, it's the exact opposite.

Do what's right for YOUR kid. Make an informed choice.

Didacticism and fanaticism have no place in the lives of children.

[Leslie]

Cosmic wrote: "Paul Martin wrote: "I have always wondered about the social aspect of homeschooling children - how does it influence the personality of a child to not be able to participate in the daily activities..."

I don't drive. I ride a bicycle, walk, or for longer distances take the bus or train. I think cars are unnatural and detrimental to our society and environment. I would like to tear out the streets in my neighborhood and put in bike and walking paths, and have roads only for public long-distance transportation. I don't have a fictional literary example of this world, but I walk or bicycle everywhere and it is a very healthy lifestyle. But, guess what....not everyone can ride or walk or bus or train where they need to go, and I am part of that society, so I pay my taxes to keep the roads and other infrastructure maintained so that we can all have a life that we can learn and live in. I don't think anyone would say your experience with your children is detrimental to them or to society, but what about families who do not have the entitlements and resources that you have? We have to support and maintain the system that reaches everyone, and if it isn't working we have to find a way to fix it together. If the children of the entitled want to learn a different way, they have the resources to do so, but tearing down the schools (metaphorically or physically) of those who do not is not the answer. Not all children "suffer" in public schools any more than all children who are home schooled excel. I don't know what the motivation is for bringing this up, particularly when surrounded on this site by so many wonderful and passionate public school teachers, but there are excellent and struggling examples in both "camps". Congratulations for your success.

[Monty J]

Cosmic wrote: "Monty J wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Does anyone remember where he admits he is in an asylum?"

Its on the last page. Or the first page. Or both.
."

karen wrote: "Holden wasn't in Hollywood, he was in NYC."

The asylum was near Hollywood. See below.

More on p.213 (last page):
"He drove over last Sunday with this English babe that's in this new picture he's writing. She was pretty affected but very good-looking. Anyway, one time when she went to the ladies room way the hell down in the other wing,... ."

p.213: "After I get out of here," Sunday visits, "psychoanalyst they have here," "way the hell down in the other wing,"

p.1: "madman stuff" "I got pretty run down and had to come out here and take it easy." "He's in Hollywood. That isn't too far from this crumby place, and he comes and visits me practically every weekend."

Plus somewhere in the middle he talks about being in a "rest home."

Salinger doesn't beat the reader over the head about Holden being in a mental institution, but taken together these are not subtle hints. It is masterful writing craft to know how much to reveal without insulting a reader's intelligence.

A recent biography reveals that Salinger was very reluctant about admitting to his superiors that he was having suicidal thoughts and needed psychiatric help. He didn't want to be ostracized as a malingerer and get demoted. General Patton had publicly humiliated a soldier for having "battle fatigue." (He had once been almost killed because a superior disliked him and assigned him to a dangerous forward foxhole during freezing sloppy weather without proper food and shelter. His friends risked their lives sneaking him provisions under cover of darkness.)

Holden's reluctance to be forthright about being institutionalized mirrors Salinger's own fear of stigmatization. Even today, people who have "nervous breakdowns" are stigmatized, but back in the '40s and '50s it was far worse.

This is just one of many examples of Holden as Salinger's doppleganger.

[Cosmic]

Renee wrote: " what's right for YOUR kid. Make an informed choice.."

Amen!

I don't think homeschool is for everyone, but I think giving children more control over their education would be advantageous...especially if the curriculum the schools are handing out are not "working" for the child.

[ImScared3222]

Michael wrote: "Making a list like this is like making a list of the most over rated ice cream flavors.

Chocolate
Strawberry
Vanilla

What do you think constitutes something being 'over rated' to begin with? Is i..."

I've never really thought about it like that before. I am too guilty of seeing things as overrated and I appreciate the new perspective. Perhaps it isn't them, but rather me. However, I do want to bring up a point when it comes to being overrated. How many people in the world claim to love something only because it is the socially acceptable thing to do. Perhaps a book really is terrible but only hits the bestseller list because people are peer pressured into claiming to like it. Twilight was terrible, let's be honest, but many of my friends "liked" it because their friends liked it. Therefore, Twilight became way to hyped up. Now everyone hates it because to say that you like it would mean being teased by your peers (at least where I'm from).

[Cosmic]

Leslie wrote: " I don't know what the motivation is for bringing this up, particularly when surrounded on this site by so many wonderful and passionate public school teachers, but there are excellent and struggling examples in both "camps". Congratulations for your success. ..."

Hi Leslie,
I was answering Paul Martin's inquiry " have always wondered about the social aspect of homeschooling children - how does it influence the personality of a child to not be able to participate in the daily activities at school with other children? "

I don't speak for all or even most homeschooled children.

And when we are talking about public schools they are not all alike. I know one that has a planetarium in it. Mine didn't have that, and my children didn't have assess to a planetarium growing up. So their are advantages and disadvantages to everyone's life. There are a lot of experiences I wish I had had and more that I wish I had had, that I guess makes us all human.

But being privileged? Well, I was one of those families that sacrificed a lot of things to homeschool. It was a choice that was very important to me.

[Paul Martin]

First - I don't necessarily consider homeschooling a bad thing. Secondly, I'm not American so I suppose we've had different experiences, but I can't help but react to some of the thing you're saying.

Cosmic wrote: "They grow up with more self confidence that is from an internal strength because they have not had to conform to the herd or the mold."

"Herd of the mould"? That "herd" consists of different people from different backgrounds. You know, real people, not sheep. What you call conforming, I call learning to live side by side people who are a lot different from yourself.

"They have time! Which is much more valuable than than being placed in a classroom where the teacher spends a great deal of her time trying to control thirty or more students."

Children in public schools have more than enough time as well, the school day isn't that long. And, a "great deal of her time trying to control students"? I've never been in an american classroom, but I imagine that it's not so much unlike here - most of the time being spent teaching, and a small, small part being used to "control" the students.

"They can have friends over when it is convenient for them"

And children in public school can't...?

"I think it is strange to me anyway that because people in this day and age went to school that they talk about it as some kind of norm when most of history mankind has not been incubated in rooms and read to in a hive."

Incubated in rooms? Hive? Yes, most of the time is spent in a room, interacting with the teacher and other students. If you want to convince people that homeschooling is a better option, you might start by calling things what they are. Using deliberate comparisons in order to portray the public school system as completely useless makes you look more like a religious fanatic than a enlightened parent.

"So when my children are at home and learning they learn things that interest them and that are related to what they are doing."

And so do children in public schools, with a good teacher. Granted, there are bad schools and bad teachers, just as there are good and bad parents, which makes the quality of homeschooling just as variable as public education.

"Because of the internet my children were able to develop many relationships with children and people in America as well as over seas."

Children that aren't home schooled have internet too, you know.

"They were not confined to just the kids in their neighborhood, city or state."

Neither are children in public schools. Unless your children have their own private jet or have also mastered the art of teleportation, among their many other spectacular skills, that argument makes no sense.

"My children's experience with talking to children that go to public school is that they play games and hate homework, but they really aren't doing anything. They don't have any amazing experiences. They don't have any hobbies."

Well, I think most parents who have children in public schools will tell you that their children DO have amazing experiences AND, guess what(!), hobbies!

"But we do involve ourselves in community service. Our children have helped out with the local food co-op, children's theater"

What's this got to do with homeschooling? These things are just as accessible for families with children in public school. This depends on the parent, not the choice of school or not school.

"Do I know how to do everything that my children know? No I don't. Did it keep my children from pursuing what interested them."

Again, this is about parenting, it doesn't have much to do with school.

"If they are interested in how to do something they can listen to a professional or an experienced amateur talk about it on YouTube."

Sigh. I feel like I've said this a thousand times by now, but so can children in public schools.

"Well I could go on"

I'm sure you could. Listen, I'm glad it worked for you and your children, really, but you cannot possibly think that it would work out that way with every family in America? Most people don't have that choice, and the way you talk about public schools and the decent hard-working people who live there is freakishly condescending and almost childishly defensive.

It's like Leslie says: Make an informed choice. Maybe that is what you did, but you obviously have some gigantic bias against the public education system. And as you know, choices made on the ground of biases are rarely informed.

[Karen]

Monty J wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Monty J wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Does anyone remember where he admits he is in an asylum?"

Its on the last page. Or the first page. Or both.
."

karen wrote: "Holden wasn't in Hollywo..."

I know, I corrected myself on tbe previous page after it was pointed out to me, and felt a bit dumb as I had just read the book.

[Karen]

Leslie wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Paul Martin wrote: "I have always wondered about the social aspect of homeschooling children - how does it influence the personality of a child to not be able to participate in the d..."

Thank you Leslie, at least you recognize that if people like myself didn't have a car we couldn't go anywhere. (I'd love to be without the expense) I liked this comparison.

[Geoffrey]

Cosmic wrote: "Geoffrey wrote: "Cosmic
Sounds like the Montessori method to me.Inspired by Rousseau. ..."

Well I looked up Montessori and here were a list of famous alumni:
List of prominent Montessori alumni:

..."
The list of famous people, high achievers who were taught Montessori is just that a list.We could devise a considerably lengthier list of people with similar credentials that never had Montessori training. If one is potentially a genius, only a lack of education will restrict them from achieving their greatness. If nothing else Montessori does not harm a child`s learning.

[Geoffrey]

Petergiaquinta wrote: "Agreed. Our system of public education has many flaws, but one thing it does have going for itself is that it's relatively cost effective and equitable. Back off: I said "relatively."

Thirty stude..."

Actually there have been multiple studies that strongly suggest that class size does have very much to do with how much the individual students learn.

[Anne Hawn]

Petergiaquinta wrote: "Anne Hawn wrote: "Parents of all sorts are taking their kids out of school and even if the parent has no educational training, the children are doing much better than their counterparts in public s..."

These are some of the arguments that have been around for a long time and have proven untrue. First, the socialization: In almost every community, there are homeschool groups where the kids can interact with a variety of kids. Second: My grandchildren are in scouts, one an Eagle Scout, church, youth group, DAR, CAR, horseback riding, piano, choir, community theater etc. Those outlets are available everywhere.

I once read an article in a homeschool magazine called, "I was raised by wolves." In it the mother describes the socialization in her school. There was bullying, social climbing, competition over who had the latest fads and most expensive clothes, sitcom values etc. She was not in the "in crowd" and spent many of her days in tears. She did not want that for her children. It has only gotten worse.

A few years a go I was working with a group of about 5 kids in the neighborhood on a Christmas project. In the midst of this a 12 year old girl in the Middle School they went to was raped and murdered by her sister's boyfriend who had been their guest the night before and knew that she was in suspension at home. She was a friend of some of the kids in my group. They were bewildered and scared. There were so many things that they were unprepared for. We live in a nice community and these were regular kids. It isn't the same kind of school that most of us are thinking of when we think about socializing.

[Anne Hawn]

Cosmic wrote: "Karen wrote: "Petergiaquinta wrote: "Anne Hawn wrote: "Parents of all sorts are taking their kids out of school and even if the parent has no educational training, the children are doing much bette..."

In our community there were over a hundred about 6-7 years ago. I don't know now. When I was a librarian I had homeschool volunteers and I was so impressed with the kids. In almost every group my grandkids are in there are 2-3. In Florida, homeschool kids can be in band, sports, gifted classes and go on any field trips. My granddaughter was in the gifted class one day a week from kindergarten on and in her group there were 3 homeschool kids out of 8 kids.

[Kallie]

Renee wrote: "The homeschool/public school war is going to be never ending. Neither side will accept or admit that, for different children, different families, both have their place.

I would likely have self-de..."

School was my haven also, Renee. (Bullying, misogynist stepfather; lucky that school attendance was mandatory or I would have been consigned to full-time nanny and housekeeper). Who do I remember from school? A lot of very cool people who stood out as individuals: some great (and eccentric) teachers; some friends and escape partners, some kind parents who made me feel at home. My friends and I consoled each other, supported each other, offered insights, rebelled and went a little wild when we could get away with it. (We didn't always).

I never know who on earth Cosmic is talking about; the oversimplification of others and unwillingness to listen to reason (that is, accept that another point of view could be valid) is apparently fixed.

[Anne Hawn]

Petergiaquinta wrote: " Even a college-educated parent is not adequate to home school high-school level subjects, let alone a parent with no education.
"

My grandson was taking dual enrolment classes with the local college from about 10th grade. He has graduated now and is fulfilling his dream to be in the Coast Guard where he will continue college.

The 6th grader got 11th, 12th and 13th grade on all her standardized test. For her it has been a matter of challenging her to her abilities. In school, she would be held to a certain grade or promoted out of her social age.

[Anne Hawn]

Renee wrote: "The homeschool/public school war is going to be never ending. Neither side will accept or admit that, for different children, different families, both have their place.

I would likely have self-de..."

I think you are getting at the reason for my first post. We were talking about schools, the curriculum and how the best learning took place. I said that we had left out homeschooling. It was our approach to two kids with different educational needs that the local schools were not able to deal with.

I could make a lot of arguments that most of the people in this group wouldn't read. I assure you that everyone who meets my grandchildren comments about the way they behave, their relationship with children and adults, their independence and the wide variety of things they can converse sensibly on.

I've had many friends who were adamantly against homeschooling until they got around these kids and saw the extraordinary things they were capable of. They became believers.

I have my own gauge in that I have another granddaughter about 3 months older than the homeschooled one. She is also an excellent student and they are great friends. I can see differences, but they are very similar. I would love to homeschool the other one so that she could be even better, but they are many states apart.

Cosmic has written about the unique experiences her sons have had that would be far beyond a local school's ability to provide, and I agree with her. We are not far out people who homeschool because we don't want our kids contaminated.

It doesn't matter if you are still sure that we are damaging our children because we don't socialize them to the current mores, but I think that is the point we are making. I sincerely doubt that you want to expose your children to rape and murder of their 12 year classmate, or pick your kid up from the local elementary school because a man committed suicide in front of the school. My grandson's school was locked down for police matters 3 times in a year and I stress, that we live on Amelia Island, FL which most people consider a paradise.

[Petergiaquinta]

Again, you are overstating...it's crazy for you to equate going to public school with rape and murder. Far more children are raped and murdered by their family members than are raped and murdered at school.

Your anecdotes are just that and nothing else, and they're the irrational and creepy kind of strategies that home schoolers use to argue for home schooling over public schooling. You have the choice here to home school because you live in America, so feel free to exercise it. But be rational as you discuss why you have made this choice.

[Anne Hawn]

Rocky wrote: "John wrote: "The Catcher in the Rye: I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what was so amazing about this story. Perhaps it was one of those uniquely time-specific novels. I was bored throughout..."

Rocky, I don't think I have ever read as good a summary of The Catcher and the Rye . You have summed up just about all the things that make it a classic. I'd say more, but I would just be reiterating what you have already said so well. Bravo!

[Petergiaquinta]

Here are some statistics about child homicide presented by both ends of the media spectrum, just in case somebody thinks I might be guilty of talking out my ass, too:

For the liberals, Mother Jones:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2...

For the conservatives, U.S.A. Today:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/na...

Significantly, both demonstrate that the number of kids killed at home is far larger than the number killed at school.

And these numbers are only concerned with gun violence. And if you'll accept the role of big government playing a necessary part in our nation's health (not sure home schoolers are clear on that concept), well here are some fascinating stats from the CDC about youth violence at school and elsewhere. Take a look at that chart:

http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention...

According to the CDC, homicide is the second leading cause of deaths among kids. One to two percent of those deaths occur at or on the way to school.

Someone else can do the research about how many kids get raped up at school these days. I'm all tuckered out, but I'd reckon it's pretty low compared to the number at home.

[Leslie]

Petergiaquinta wrote: "Again, you are overstating...it's crazy for you to equate going to public school with rape and murder. Far more children are raped and murdered by their family members than are raped and murdered a..."

Creepy indeed! Not only that, but it implies that parents who do send their children to public school generally care less or provide less or attend less to their children. It's just not kind, or necessary, to use such comparisons. If I don't want to paint my house or tend my yard like my neighbor, he doesn't get to burn down my house. Appreciate what you have and can do, but don't judge others, or hang a sign "Inferior" or "Negligent" around their necks.

[Monty J]

Anne Hawn wrote: " I sincerely doubt that you want to expose your children to rape and murder of their 12 year classmate, or pick your kid up from the local elementary school because a man committed suicide in front of the school. My grandson's school was locked down for police matters 3 times in a year and I stress, that we live on Amelia Island, FL which most people consider a paradise."

You have a point. Not all public schools are the same, by any stretch. The Oakland, CA, system has a horrid history, and charter schools have popped up everywhere because of it. The charter schools have security fences that keep out the drug dealers and pimps recruiting fresh meat for child prostitution. It is sickening.

If the school system weren't so corrupt, they would have addressed the problem and charter schools wouldn't have been needed. People from most parts of the country can't relate to such conditions.

Parts of Oakland also have a history of sometimes brutal black-on-white/Asian racism. Oakland's not the only area with such problems. Who would not want to protect their child and themselves from a culture of crime and hate?

I can see cases where homeschooling is warranted, but it should be seen as a sign of systemic problems that need addressing. The canary in the coal mine.

Public schools should be so superior that few people would look for an alternative. This is what I experienced in Texas in the 1950-60s, and it's a shame public schools have deteriorated so. Where is the outrage over this deterioration?

[Cosmic]

Petergiaquinta wrote: "But be rational as you discuss why you have made this choice. ..."

We made the choice because we wanted quality education!

Not just quality in information but also in applications and in relationships.


When the kids get out of public schools what are they qualified to do? What kind of jobs do they get right out of high school? Retail jobs? Manual labor? What can they do with all the fact poking that you have put in their heads to make money? What can they put on their resumes?

In your schools you graduate hundreds of kids a year so you must have hundreds of success stories right? I don't want to hear how they had to get a loan so they could go to college. Or that they were perfectly qualified to flip hamburgers at McDonalds. Give me something exceptional that your children routinely do coming out of High School. What could I as a parent expect for giving my children to you for 10,000 hours and 12 years of my child's life? Why should I want a public school education for my child? Do a hard sell?

I personally went to public school and when I came out I could write on a job application that I had a high school diploma. Big Deal. So did about 5,000 other students that year. There was nothing significant about my education that would stand out from all the other students. Even if I had made all A's which I didn't, an employer wasn't hiring me to be a walking encyclopedia. To say I could read and write was kinda an understatement since my writing skills are probably still just mediocre. I even had to have my employer at a restaurant where I was a waitress teach me how to count money back to a customer because we didn't go over that in school.

I just wasn't impressed with my public school education to give them another try with my kids.

Glad it works for you, and your kids. I am happy the parents of the children you teach are not as picky as me. Makes my kids look like geniuses, comparatively speaking. I am totally satisfied with the education and life that my children have gotten. I don't know any parents that send their children to public school that can say that. Well maybe one. The boy goes to a charter school and hangs with my kids on the weekend.

It was funny. But a couple weekends ago my boys were doing field day. (This is a major ham radio event that happens once a year.) There was a lady there that was the wife of one of the radio operators. She was on the school board. She heard my children talking and asked them what school they went to. They told her they were home schooled. She invited them to help out a public school set up a "makers shop" at one of the local high schools. Why not just pick it from the pool of students at the high school? What are my kids stand out above the others? Why didn't this lady shame my kids and their father like you are doing? It is easy to speak in your lofty generalities but you haven't CON-Vinced me of anything.

[Petergiaquinta]

Cosmic wrote: "In your schools you graduate hundreds of kids a year so you must have hundreds of success stories right? I don't want to hear how they had to get a loan so they could go to college. Or that they were perfectly qualified to flip hamburgers at McDonalds. Give me something exceptional that your children routinely do coming out of High School. What could I as a parent expect for giving my children to you for 10,000 hours and 12 years of my child's life? Why should I want a public school education for my child? Do a hard sell?"... I am happy the parents of the children you teach are not as picky as me. Makes my kids look like geniuses, comparatively speaking. I am totally satisfied with the education and life that my children have gotten. I don't know any parents that send their children to public school that can say that. Well maybe one. The boy goes to a charter school and hangs with my kids on the weekend.

Cosmic, now you're just being crazy. How will we do this? Would you like to give me your children's ACT or AP scores and I'll run some averages of my students over my career, and then we'll compare?

Or should we just compare those scores of your home-schooled children with the scores of my own public-schooled biological children? Because here, in this scenario, my own biological children will win and I won't be guilty of any breach of privacy. (Although never mind, test score averages are public knowledge anyway.)

But jeezus, what would that prove anyway, other than my kids are smarter than yours? Be rational or shut the hell up.

[Leslie]

Cosmic wrote: "Petergiaquinta wrote: "But be rational as you discuss why you have made this choice. ..."

We made the choice because we wanted quality education!

Not just quality in information but also in appl..."

Well La-dee-Dah! I sure know what is standing out for me.

[Cheryl]

Um, haven't read all the posts. Looks like the comments have gone on to another subject.

But did anyone mention The Gold Finch by Donna Tartt as being overrated?

[Cosmic]

Renee wrote: "School bullies? They left me alone. I was the one the bullied kids came and stood behind. And never once did I have to strike out physically. School bullies were child's play compared to the bullying that waited for me at home. Bullying teachers didn't hold much power over me either. ..."


Renee, I am not trying to convince you that you should have been homeschooled. But I wanted to respond to your post because it demonstrates one of the things I didn't want my children to have to deal with....that is a hostile learning environment. This is not something you should have had to deal with as a child/teenager. Nor is it something that children should be subjected to before they have the emotional maturity to handle this. In the school environment it is nearly impossible for teachers to control these dynamic in the school culture. I think it was good for you to point out that not only were students bullying students but teachers also were guilty. I experienced this kind of bullying when I went to school and I didn't think it was right or ok. In the adult world it would not have been tolerated. But school is more like a prison and the jungle rules are the name of the game. Even doing your homework is a form of bullying in my opinion. Today I can read whatever I want to. Children should have more options in their education even just daydreaming or taking a break. Time is micromanaged for students so that when they get home they have to work for school. When my husband gets home from work he doesn't have to keep working for the man. This is another way that school is not like the real world. They bully kids and their parents to work for them for free so that they can get better test scores so they can get more money. What a scam.

[Leslie]

Cheryl wrote: "Um, haven't read all the posts. Looks like the comments have gone on to another subject.

But did anyone mention The Gold Finch by Donna Tartt as being overrated?"

I'll jump all over that one with a big fat YES!! (but many loved it, so...)

[Leslie]

Cosmic wrote: "Why didn't this lady shame my kids and their father like you are doing? It is easy to speak in your lofty generalities but you haven't CON-Vinced me of anything."

We made the choice because we wanted quality education!

Not just quality in information but also in appl..."

Are you seriously going on and on about the eliteness of your system, and your children, and you being "more picky than public school parents and teachers," and how superior everything in your life is because of the choices you make compared to public school parents and teachers...and in the next breath claiming to be the victim of "shaming" from someone who simply points out that your broad generalizations based on your personal experience are not rational? Really?

Color me convinced...but probably not how you think...

[Karen]

Leslie wrote: "Petergiaquinta wrote: "Again, you are overstating...it's crazy for you to equate going to public school with rape and murder. Far more children are raped and murdered by their family members than a..."

Again, I love your comparisons Leslie, they are right on. I don't even care if people choose to homeschool or not- what I do care about is the disrespect of teachers here. I am an assistant, but I am in classrooms all day with teachers and students. Do you know how hard it is to be a good teacher??? Do you realize all the continuing education they have to have now? Do you know how hard it is to run a school successfully? I am sick to death of teacher blaming and public school bashing. I'm glad your kids and grandchildren did well homeschooled, stop bragging about it. My son has a mental disability, thank goodness he was able to go to the public school, I considered it a priviledge.

[BookCrazy]

Maria wrote: "Which books do you think are overrated?

Here's a quick sampling from various internet sites that recommend skipping these:
The Catcher in the Rye
Moby Dick
The Great Gatsby
Waiting for Godot
The..."

I agree with The Da Vinci Code and Twilight as they are not very different from other books of the same genre and are light and fluffy reading. They added nothing new to literature. I read, but don't get the fuss about Catcher in the Rye. I have to disagree with Atlas Shrugged and Ulysses. Atlas Shrugged has been given bad press recently by politicians, but there are good ideas in the book. And it has to be read more than once to be understood. Ulysses was difficult for me until I listened to an audiobook. It is really poetry when heard. The Stranger and Waiting for Godot also have to be read many times and thought about to understand the ideas. Great Gatsby is the only book by F Scott Fitzgerald that I like.

[Leslie]

Karen wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Petergiaquinta wrote: "Again, you are overstating...it's crazy for you to equate going to public school with rape and murder. Far more children are raped and murdered by their family..."

Yeah...thanks Karen, me too! I put it aside for a long time as it kept going and going, and now... Well...I should probably stop. I can get kind of cranky under this sort of "tone," particularly when it is towards people I admire, and when it isn't bleepin necessary. Me Monsters...ugh!

[Karen]

Can we have fun now?

[Leslie]

Karen wrote: "Can we have fun now?"

Yeah, no kidding!

[Karen]

Leslie wrote: "Karen wrote: "Can we have fun now?"

Yeah, no kidding!"

Geesh, sometimes I wish I could drink.

[Kallie]

Karen wrote: "Leslie wrote...I don't even care if people choose to homeschool or not- what I do care about is the disrespect of teachers here. I am an assistant, but I am in classrooms all day with teachers and students. "

And all people are saying is that homeschooling is not an option for most students so please quit making sweeping generalizations about all schools based on some that have problems, albeit serious problems. Is it any wonder that Oakland schools are dangerous when the entire community is a ghetto wasteland? Oakland is a black community. The problem, as Petergiaquinta stated earlier, is economic and political injustice and terrible schools are a symptom of that kind of injustice all over this country.

[Monty J]

Cosmic wrote: "Renee, I am not trying to convince you that you should have been homeschooled. But I wanted to respond to your post because it demonstrates one of the things I didn't want my children to have to deal with....that is a hostile learning environment. This is not something you should have had to deal with as a child/teenager."

Cosmic, are you drinking or something? You're contradicting yourself left and right. Renee just told you she we being bullied at home. How could she be home schooled if home was a more hostile learning environment than school?

" When my husband gets home from work he doesn't have to keep working for the man."

Well bully for him and you, but that's your reality, not everyone else's reality by any stretch.

"But school is more like a prison and the jungle rules are the name of the game."

What school are you talking about? This is a absurd generalization.

You seem to be extrapolating and projecting your limited reality as if it were prevalent or representative. Well it appears to be anything but. If you're the teacher I wouldn't want to be one of your kids, because I would be getting a severely slanted view of reality and a poor example of how to reason through social issues. You've just provided a sterling example of one of the flaws of home schooling--a severely limited view of reality.

Not all school systems are the same nor are all families as affluent and privileged as yours seems to be.

[Petergiaquinta]

Karen wrote: "Geesh, sometimes I wish I could drink."

Go right ahead. Cheers!

Anecdotal evidence in support of an argument really doesn't help much. It's amusing or shocking or boring, but what does it tell us, other than you know somebody who...?

And if you want to tell stories, well, 150 to 200 students per year for almost 30 years means that...and just this morning at a Starbucks, the barrista told me that in 1999...and she actually made me feel pretty good about myself...but so what, right? What does any of that prove about my perspective of public education?

In these nearly 30 years, some of my students have killed other people and some of them have killed themselves. Some are in jail. Some are unemployed and some are millionaires. And some went into the armed forces and others the trades, but overall most of them went to college and most of them are productive, successful members of society right now with jobs and families. And most of them would probably tell you they were satisfied with their high school education.

But I don't think it would matter much to tell anyone specific stories about any of them as a way to argue the overall success of our public school system in the U.S.

However, here's an observation I have. I made the comment that one drawback to home schooling is the diminished exposure students would have to others who are unlike themselves, and I stressed the importance in our diverse society to spend time with people different from ourselves. And then one of the proponents of home schooling on the thread posted that she doesn't know any parents who send their children to public school who are satisfied with their children's education or lives...before modifying that claim to knowing one parent who is.

And that statement right there shows how insulated (or isolated) this individual is from mainstream life in America because in fact, according to studies, the majority of Americans report being satisfied with the education their children have had in public schools. They say public education needs improvement (of course it does), but they go on to claim satisfaction with their own children's experience in the public schools.

Now I think I'm done talking about this...I'd rather get back to this Goldfinch comment. What do you fine folks have against Donna Tartt's little book? I'm never going to get my review written with all these Goldfinch haters out here on GoodReads pulling me down.

[Leslie]

Petergiaquinta wrote: "Now I think I'm done talking about this...I'd rather get back to this Goldfinch comment. What do you fine folks have against Donna Tartt's book? I'm never going to get my review written with all these Goldfinch haters out here on GoodReads pulling me down. "

Oh, this is a perfect metaphor Peter! We don't need more haters of Donna Tartt pulling you down, but we, the haters, sure do need you buoying us UP! Without examples of both sides cooperating we each get mired in our own delusional "awesome-nots". I'm obviously too chickenshit to write my review of hating the book (no, not really...just too lazy...I blame my parents since it is so much easier than taking responsibility myself, right?)

Personally, I couldn't buy into her story from the very beginning. She did not sell me on the plausibility of a teenager walking away from a bomb scene with a priceless painting, the circumstances surrounding him ending up with the rich friend (oh how convenient), and all of the characters up to the point I managed to slog my way through seemed very cliche and stereotyped "Mr. Rich I-Love-Sailing" guy (the father), nerdy listhpy son. And then the observations by the protagonist about the upholstery on an antique chair, and the dull-as-rocks dialogue, just sent me over the edge. He didn't even mention the funeral of his mother except a short paragraph quite a way into the story...seemed too far in for me. It was just too saccharine for me.

[Cosmic]

Monty J wrote: ".."

Monty Renee also wrote that there were bullies in her school.

"Renee wrote: "School bullies? They left me alone. I was the one the bullied kids came and stood behind. And never once did I have to strike out physically. School bullies were child's play compared to the bullying that waited for me at home. Bullying teachers didn't hold much power over me either."

I was simply using her testimony to validate my own observations about public school being a hostile learning environment. Even n Holden makes this same observation so I don't think it necessarily has to do with economic factors. Although by degrees I imagine it is worst in a ghetto. I have never had to go to school in that kind of environment. My mother taught school that was located in a project. The children often didn't have an adult around to fix them a meal when they got home. I don't think that homeschool would be better for these students. But really what we were discussing was quality education...not necessarily homeschool. Our discussion was around the book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values.

Have any of you read it?


Sorry that didn't make sense to you.

[Monty J]

Cosmic wrote: "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values.

Have any of you read it? "

Two decades ago, at a time when I was severely depressed, I did the book on tape and then read the book. Not much of it stuck. Not much of anything stuck during those days.

[Karen]

Petergiaquinta wrote: "Karen wrote: "Geesh, sometimes I wish I could drink."

Go right ahead. Cheers!

Haha. I guess I deserved that!

[Cosmic]

Monty J wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values.

Have any of you read it? "

Two decades ago, at a time when I was severely depressed, I did the book on tape and ..."

Sorry,

I am glad that you came out of your depression and are finding purpose in helping others.

[Renee E]

Cosmic wrote: I think it was good for you to point out that not only were students bullying students but teachers also were guilty. I experienced this kind of bullying when I went to school and I didn't think it was right or ok. In the adult world it would not have been tolerated.

Not tolerated in the adult world?

What world do you live in? How do I get there? I've encountered far more bullies in the adult world and by-and-large they're the ones who get rewarded, who get ahead.

And . . . if you'll stop a moment, step back and consider, berating others for choices that don't gibe with our own is kinda bullying . . . and I don't think that's your intent.

But — ". . . people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." ~ Frank Zappa

[Karen]

Renee wrote: "Cosmic wrote: I think it was good for you to point out that not only were students bullying students but teachers also were guilty. I experienced this kind of bullying when I went to school and I d..."

Well said. Adult bullying happens all the time.

[Leslie]

Cosmic wrote: "Monty J wrote: ".."

Monty Renee also wrote that there were bullies in her school.

"Renee wrote: "School bullies? They left me alone. I was the one the bullied kids came and stood behind. And ne..."

Public schools are not hostile environments. Some public schools have some hostile incidents. Generalizations like this are toxic...and a little hostile... I certainly hope your superior program includes a little more critical thought process.

I have "even" read the book. I would probably put it on the over-rated list.

[Renee E]

It's always seemed to me that schools are a microcosm, a mirror, even, of the society around them.

I don't know that bullying is actually worse than ever, but it is certainly more tolerated, overlooked, and even rewarded. Same thing in the grown-up world. Look at our politics, how strident and overbearing religions have become, the media . . . and if someone dares to raise their voice in protest the bullies scream "I'm a victim." Typical cowardly, manipulative bully behavior.

Everyone's become afraid to jerk the rug out from under the bullies.