The Catcher in the Rye
discussion
The Most Overrated Books
I have always wondered about the social aspect of homeschooling children - how does it influence the personality of a child to not be able to participate in the daily activities at school with other children?
Karen wrote: "I have a headache"Ha! My point exactly.
Monty J wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Do birds learn songs or is it instinct? I thought it was the latter."Must be learned. Saw a documentary on this."
Oh that's interesting! Do you remember what the documentary was?
Elyse wrote: "Another book called "The Secret Life of the Grown Up Brain", by scientist Barbara Strauch, reveals studies (through brain scans, etc.), That brain cells are still growing during middle age... And ..."
Thank you for the book recommendation. I will put it on my list to read. The brain doesn't have to develop or learn in a linear fashion the way we teach in school. It can do better than this. Some brains are better at picking out the gems out of the noise. Some find the "noise" very distracting. One book that I read said your brain was not ready for math till after you are 11 or 12. It doesn't take a long to to learn something if you are mentally and emotionally ready to learn. The problem with school is that it teaches kids things they can Google and acts like we are living in 1950, where we needed to memorize and we needed teachers and we need to spell and write. As sad as this may make some we have made a leap forward and it should be more reflected in our schools rather than seen as a threat. Given the technology we could offer the kids the option of creating their own curriculum. I was thinking to that if you didn't teach a child anything, just told him he could draw all day (if this is what you saw him doing when he wasn't paying attention) and he ended up with 10,000 hours of drawing, he probably would have a marketable skill plus he would have friends and self esteem that would not be manufactured from the outside.
Anne what you said about developing a curriculum from scratch. Deciding what a child needs to know based on real world, your world view and experience is an eye opener. Most teachers for the most part are taught to teach a subject or a textbook. This is a very different thing. You can teach that subject without thinking about how it relates to the whole experience/child. I have heard school equated to a Ford Motor Car Plant. Just put your bolt here and pass her to the next class....
Remy said something else that was interesting about this rote learning. I need to re-read his essay again, because it had a dystopian ring to it.
John wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "John wrote: "The Catcher in the Rye: I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what was so amazing about this story. Perhaps it was one of those uniquely time-specific novels. I was b..."Well I think that at the time Salinger wrote this you couldn't just stand up and say hey wait a minute this was orchestrated. Salinger was still a prostitute for the industry. He didn't want to bite the hand that feeds him. But he wouldn't let them take his book and make a movie out of it.
This is my take on the book. You don't have to like my interpretation. You can develop your own. I think that classics are written to cause you to think and ponder. Not all novels are written for this purpose. Some seem to be just for entertainment. Some people like puzzles (iceberg theory) to figure out.
Anne Hawn wrote: "Parents of all sorts are taking their kids out of school and even if the parent has no educational training, the children are doing much better than their counterparts in public school. "Let's not overstate things here. First, you have a select group of students who are being home schooled, students with parents who are interested in their education and students who for the most part come from intact families. So when averages comparing the results between students who are home schooled and those at public school show home schoolers achieving better test scores, they are not very meaningful because you are comparing this select group with all students from every type of background at public school.
Second, because these select students have been home schooled and have not been in public education, you have no way of knowing how they'd do in a public school. They might have done better.
Third, and perhaps most important, a significant part of the "education" in a public school can never be replicated in a home-school environment, and that's the acculturation to what it means to be an American. It's essential that we understand the diversity of the country we live in. It's essential that we rub shoulders with and work with other types of people, not just the people who live in our neighborhood, go to our church, look like us, speak like us and live like us. To not understand this point is to not understand something crucial about the American identity and culture. Sometimes as a child these "others" are so different from you that the only place you would encounter them is in a school environment. How will this child be ready to step into adult society, the world of work and business, college or the armed forces without this crucial exposure and connection that is a natural part of public schooling? And my thoughts are that a home-schooled kid sure isn't going to meet these "others" anywhere else growing up.
Finally, a parent with "no educational training" cannot bring to the subject matter what a teacher with years of training and experience with hundreds (or thousands) of students can. And the older that child gets, the more difficult the subject matter gets. Even a college-educated parent is not adequate to home school high-school level subjects, let alone a parent with no education.
Monty J wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Do birds learn songs or is it instinct? I thought it was the latter."Must be learned. Saw a documentary on this."
Well it looks like there are different strokes for different folks.
http://www.ehow.com/about_6729061_do-...
According to this article some birds learn their songs, some know theirs by instinct and some can learn to imitate other birds into adulthood. But I didn't know this. Thanks Monty for being this to my attention.
Guess even birds can't be pigeonholed.
Renee wrote: "Guess even birds can't be pigeonholed."Lol !!! Good one.
Petergiaquinta wrote: "Anne Hawn wrote: "Parents of all sorts are taking their kids out of school and even if the parent has no educational training, the children are doing much better than their counterparts in public s..."Excellent argument, I agree 100%. And it's not just because I work in a public school either. Being isolated from American culture and groups of students working together causes a child to miss valuable learning experiences.
Karen wrote: "Petergiaquinta wrote: "Anne Hawn wrote: "Parents of all sorts are taking their kids out of school and even if the parent has no educational training, the children are doing much better than their c..."How many homeschooled do you know?
I'm an old guy...how can I answer that question? 100?
Maybe more.
Karen wrote: "Monty J wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Do birds learn songs or is it instinct? I thought it was the latter."Must be learned. Saw a documentary on this."
Oh that's interesting! Do you remember what the d..."
It was ages ago, but it stuck. Probably happened in college. It really bothered me because I empathized with the poor bird that didn't know how to communicate. Frozen out of social contact because it could only make meaningless sounds. I identified with that bird to an extent. Felt alienated. (Talk about delayed development, hell, I'm still in damage repair mode.)
Which brings me to Holden's worries over the Central Park ducks. (Hang on; take this leap with me.) I'm wondering if that was a reflection of Salinger's study of Buddhism, etc., or if it came naturally or if it was something caused by his combat experience, a symptom of PTSD, a hypersensitivity to suffering.
When one has witnessed extreme suffering over three years--men chopped and blown to pieces in battle, emaciated corpses in concentration camps (Auschwitz in his case I think it was)--"lower" forms of life can take on an expanded level of meaning.
Renee: "Guess even birds can't be pigeonholed."
Oh god, one of those :)
LOL! Sorry. It's terminal, I'm afraid, but I take my well-deserved punishment.(One of my favorite bits in my novel is when the protag, who is hauling a load of cattle, ponders over Shrodinger's calf. One of the writing guild members, who is a physicist-poet, positively cackled.)
Karen wrote: "Being isolated from American culture and groups of students working together causes a child to miss valuable learning experiences. ..."Homeschoolers are not isolated from American culture. Just the opposite they are in the culture. They are living in the real world. It is the public school students that is caged. It is the public school students that has to parrot back what they are told. To see the world as they are allowed to see it through textbooks and four walls of the same ideology. Schools that were built using the architectural plans of prisons. You tell your self and your students this is the world but no one would choose to live life in a public school if they weren't getting paid to do it.
From my experience....my kids do not scream on the playground. They have fun but they don't have to be the loudest because they have their emotional cup full. My children never knew boredom in their life. Not because I told them every move to make and kept their lives looking like Disneyland. I didn't. But because they had time to have hobbies and they were observant and they were taught to think. Thinking people don't get bored. My kids are very patient. They haven't had everything systematically done for them. They don't think they are entitled to have everything. They realize that things take time. That learning something that you can apply to what you are doing takes more time than just memorizing a bunch of facts for a test that you can forget about tomorrow or till exams. What do you need it for? My kids know how to learn. They don't need me to teach them things like a mother bird who regurgitated her food and feeds her vomited to her children. (Just a little something I got from Ulysses). My children are not dependent on teachers to find out something, they know how to use Google and can learn faster than most children that go to school because they learn on demand. In school you have to learn what the teacher is teaching, but when you homeschool or better yet UNSCHOOL you are not limited.
American culture? Please define it for me. If you cannot find American culture except in school then I doubt it is American culture.
There's definitely a new and more open version of home schooling. "Back in the day" the homeschooled kids were the ones whose parents didn't want them to be corrupted by contact with anything or anyone that might cause Their Preciouses to question what Mommy and Daddy Teach.That's changed, thanks in large part to the internet and the ease of communication with the wide world we now have.
In a weird way, it's switched it all around. Many — not all, there are still some of the Old Schoolers around — seem to get more exposure to freedom of thought and non-homogenous experiential education than their peers in public school, where overtaxed teachers are required to toe a certain line to get those standardized test scores up high enough to get the next level of funding . . . and bonuses for the local education administration poobahs.
Cosmic wrote: "American culture? Please define it for me. If you cannot find American culture except in school then I doubt it is American culture."I think we're going to have to disagree on this. You have some odd ideas, and you're a true believer. So good for you...keep on keeping on.
One of the key components of American culture is the diversity that we have embraced as a people. We come from many places, but we live together here in relative harmony. There is no other place like it. Except maybe Canada, and they might even do it better than us. We'll see...
So, it's essential we work together and spend time with people different from us. Public schooling allows for this. I'm not sure what you think the "real world" is.
They are living in the real world. It is the public school students that is caged.The design of the building and methods of teaching isn't the point. The point is that homeschooled children are robbed of something crucial, namely the socializing process with other children at the same age. How is spending the entire school day with your parent more close to "the real world" than spending time with people around the same age, intelligence and life experience? I have no doubt that a homeschooled can become more academically knowledgeable than a child at public school, but that is, imo, secondary.
Paul, many homeschool programs now include outside activities with groups of other homeschoolers. I recall school being so cliquish that there wasn't a great deal of inter-cultural socializing going on. It was all divided into social, economic, jock, nerd, heads and racial strata and only a few of us could — or wanted to move out of our comfort cliques.
John wrote: "The Catcher in the Rye: I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what was so amazing about this story. Perhaps it was one of those uniquely time-specific novels. I was bored throughout."Well John, I put a lot of thought and effort into this so here goes (SPOILERS, duh): The first thing about Catcher in The Rye I'd like to talk about is the writing style. Sallinger's prose just jumps off the page, it gets in your head to the point where you forget it's being written and start to think Holden is actually talking to you. It was almost written 65 years ago and it still flows the same. Sallinger unravels Holden's brain by telling us small things at a time, building implication upon implication. At one point in the book Holden talks about it taking an hour to take a bra off his girlfriend. I'd argue that this is Sallinger saying Holden just can't cut to the chase. It's just too hard and too painful for him. He isn't able to say what's wrong with him in a minute, so you have to dive inside Holden's head for a week.
Most people don't like the book because they don't like Holden. Well guess what? YOU aren't likeable either. Everybody is more like Holden Caulfield than they care to admit. If anybody spent a week inside your head they'd hate you just about as much as you hate Holden. Yeah he's just a teen who always complains about phonies, yet does phony stuff, but all teens do. However, this book is not about hypocrisy. It's about empathy. You're not supposed to like Holden – just to pile on, it's stupid to judge a book on how much you like the protagonist, in general - you're supposed to realize that while he's dumb, and whiny, he's still a person. He is hurting and his problems are real and just as important as yours or mine are. Who are we to deny Holden a helping hand or a willing ear because he's a teenager who doesn't have life figured out?
I think the important question is why is Holden the way he is? Holden throughout the novel just wants someone to listen to him, however, he is constantly beat up and used by nearly everyone. Stradlater takes his coat (and probably his gloves), makes Holden write his easy for him (and doesn't even appreciate it), screws his childhood friend, then beats him up. His friend down the hall uses his typewriter. His teacher cares more about lecturing him and his generation than figuring out why Holden is dropping out and helping him. Ms. Morrow only wants to talk about her son. When he asks the cabbie about what happens to the ducks in the winter, the cabbie starts talking about the fish! Lillian only wants to talk about D.B.. Sunny and Maurice steal another $5 from him and beat the crap out of him even though he doesn't even sleep with Sunny but pays her anyway. The only adult who will listen to him has ulterior motives and probably wants to molest him. Can you blame Holden for not wanting to become an adult?
Everybody calls Holden sh***y, but Holden is a good kid deep down and arguably the most empathetic person in the book. He gives his schoolmates whatever they ask, he gives money to the nuns, he doesn't want to put his nice suitcase out in public because his roommate has a crappy one (although the roommate uses Holden's own bags to impress people), he ties the girl's skates, he pays a hooker just to talk, he feels bad when he has a big breakfast and the nuns don't. He writes to his teacher telling him not to feel bad for failing him.
He has days to kill but nothing to do. He gets in the phone booth and nobody wants to talk to him. He lost the fencing match without even being on the team. The only person he can look up to is his younger brother and he died of cancer and it's implied that Holden might even feel responsible. Can you imagine how depressing this must be for him?
The thing is, we can see perfectly see the reasons the other characters act the way they do. Holden can be annoying. Stradlater has stuff to do, and yeah he's a little bit of a prick, but he's still a decent guy. The cabbie is just doing his job. Sunny is a prostitute, her life sucks. Holden is rich, he can afford to lose $5, but heck, who knows what that might mean Sunny. Of course Lillian wants to talk about D.B., she dated him and wants to know what he's up to. Of course Ms. Morrow wants to talk about her son. Everybody in the world can't always listen to your problems. Life isn't like that. So who does listen to Holden? Phoebe. When Holden tells Phoebe he's got to go, Phoebe packs up her suitcase. She doesn't lecture Holden or give him a pamphlet, she just extends her hand and effectively says “I want to go with you”.
That's what we as readers are doing. We are saying, “We want to hear your story. We can empathize with you. Yes you're rich, yes you suck sometimes, yes you screw up those screw ups are usually your own fault, but you're depressed, possibly mentally ill and those and serious problems. We care about you and we know that deep down you're a good kid. We want to be there with you and we want to help.” Just imagine if your brother?sister or son/daughter was in Holden's shoes, would you dismiss their depression, their struggle to find themselves, their fears? I doubt it, so why dismiss Holden and his? Yes the story is doesn't have any action, but to Holden this week is a huge deal in his life, just as something small might make your week a good week or a crappy one. One thing to keep in mind Holden is most likely in a hospital when he's telling us this story. He didn't get anybody to listen to him all novel, yet somehow we just listened to him fill up 200 pages. That's the light at the end of the tunnel. He's getting help, and we're helping him.
If you read the book and got all that and still didn't like it, well, different stokes for different folks, I guess. Sorry about the hugely long reply.
Renee wrote: "Paul, many homeschool programs now include outside activities with groups of other homeschoolers." I'm glad to hear that.
"I recall school being so cliquish that there wasn't a great deal of inter-cultural socializing going on. It was all divided into social, economic, jock, nerd, heads and racial strata and only a few of us could — or wanted to move out of our comfort cliques."
Well, I suppose it was kind of stupid of me to get into this discussion in the first place, seeing how most of you are Americans and probably have a very different experience with public school than I do. I'm the product of a system that puts considerable effort into eliminating those social and economic divisions.
I'll leave you to it :p
Rocky wrote: "Sorry about the hugely long reply. "No apologies needed...that was a brilliant reply and you are a welcome addition to this group of folks who have been defending Holden and extolling the virtues of this book over the past year or so!
Rocky wrote: "Most people don't like the book because they don't like Holden. Well guess what? YOU aren't likeable either. Everybody is more like Holden Caulfield than they care to admit."
Yes, we are...and not only does Holden admit to his flaws more than most of us ever own up to, as you so eloquently point out he's also a better person than we are. Despite all the grief Catcher has received over the years from school boards (and home schooling parents?) about having such a delinquent for a main character, Holden has values that most of our students need to learn and instill into their lives.
Rocky wrote: The only adult who will listen to him has ulterior motives and probably wants to molest him.Great, great post. But I don't agree on Mr. Antolini. I know it's unclear, but my immediate and posterior reaction was that Holden overreacted and that Mr. Antolini, despite acting a little weird, was simply genuinely concerned about Holden.
I think Monty's written something about this on his blog?
Rocky wrote: "John wrote: "The Catcher in the Rye: I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what was so amazing about this story. Perhaps it was one of those uniquely time-specific novels. I was bored throughout..."Great response, Rocky. Salinger, and Holden, have certainly attracted many loyal and erudite supporters. I leave this thread feeling a lot more positive about Catcher - I may even re-read it someday with all of your comments as notes. That's the beauty of Goodreads - there's always someone smarter than you on a particular book. Thanks, guys!
Cosmic wrote: "Karen wrote: "Petergiaquinta wrote: "Anne Hawn wrote: "Parents of all sorts are taking their kids out of school and even if the parent has no educational training, the children are doing much bette..."My knowledge of homeschooled students who did well doesn't matter, as there would be no way to accurately measure those results against the great majority of students who did well in public school. In massachusetts homeschooling is highly regulated anyways, the curriculum must be approved by the school district and the Department of Education, so no I don't know very many students who were homeschooled.
Fijke wrote: "but I very much doubt that Holden's values add anything particularly significant to students' lives today."I can't help but feel that you're understating the risk of feeling isolated and alienated, even in our generation. I think Rocky's point, the fact that Holden is damaged goods and therefore makes it difficult for people to help him, is still as valuable today as it was in the 50's. Although I agree that the setting is dated, the point that you need a certain amount of empathy in order to understand people like Holden is, in my opinion, timeless.
Petergiaquinta wrote: "...perhaps most important, a significant part of the "education" in a public school can never be replicated in a home-school environment, and that's the acculturation to what it means to be an American. It's essential that we understand the diversity of the country we live in. It's essential that we rub shoulders with and work with other types of people, not just the people who live in our neighborhood, go to our church, look like us, speak like us and live like us. To not understand this point is to not understand something crucial about the American identity and culture. Sometimes as a child these "others" are so different from you that the only place you would encounter them is in a school environment. How will this child be ready to step into adult society, the world of work and business, college or the armed forces without this crucial exposure and connection that is a natural part of public schooling? And my thoughts are that a home-schooled kid sure isn't going to meet these "others" anywhere else growing up.Finally, a parent with "no educational training" cannot bring to the subject matter what a teacher with years of training and experience with hundreds (or thousands) of students can. And the older that child gets, the more difficult the subject matter gets. Even a college-educated parent is not adequate to home school high-school level subjects, let alone a parent with no education. "
I can't even express how much I agree... I've had this same conversation dozens of times. It's not just the children who miss out on the cultural experience, but the schools suffer more and the students there, when families stop supporting public education. It's a community effort. Schools and families need support. We succeed and fail together.
Rocky wrote: "John wrote: "The Catcher in the Rye: I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what was so amazing about this story. Perhaps it was one of those uniquely time-specific novels. I was bored throughout..."Don't be sorry- it was wonderful! :)
Leslie wrote: "Petergiaquinta wrote: "...perhaps most important, a significant part of the "education" in a public school can never be replicated in a home-school environment, and that's the acculturation to what..."Yep- public education is almost free, and I have the pleasure of working with good teachers who work hard. And when a girl from Pakistan risked her life to go to school that day she was shot in the head, I have a hard time listening to alot of complaining about public education.
Leslie wrote: "It's not just the children who miss out on the cultural experience, but the schools suffer more and the students there, when families stop supporting public education. It's a community effort. Schools and families need support. We succeed and fail together."Ditto.
It's a free country. Individual liberty, etc., but the public schools are as sacred as anything in my book. Chopping it up and handing it over to the corporate suits who want to privatize education is one more step toward a fascist state.
Democracy is messy, but to preserve "the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity" it is vital that unity be preserved. That means if something is wrong with public education we need work together to fix it at all costs.
(Jeese, I've just convinced myself to volunteer at the school system. Dang my tongue, er, fingers.)
Monty J wrote: "Leslie wrote: "It's not just the children who miss out on the cultural experience, but the schools suffer more and the students there, when families stop supporting public education. It's a communi..."Run for a school board seat!
Petergiaquinta wrote: "Anne Hawn wrote: "Parents of all sorts are taking their kids out of school and even if the parent has no educational training, the children are doing much better than their counterparts in public s..."Wish there were a 'like' button. Seriously, how does one person provide all this? Let alone: biology lab, art lessons, band. I suppose that a lot of this has disappeared thanks to under-funding of public schools. Better public schools are the only option for kids whose parents are uneducated, or whatever. Who would you get to home-school them?
And I'd like to know where you get this, Cosmic:
"Most teachers for the most part are taught to teach a subject or a textbook." Can you honestly say that you know most teachers? That's a helluva lot of people.
Paul Martin wrote: "Fijke wrote: "but I very much doubt that Holden's values add anything particularly significant to students' lives today."I can't help but feel that you're understating the risk of feeling isolate..."
It is a timeless story- same problems, different era, that's all. I think that's part of what makes it a classic.
Fijke wrote: "I very much doubt that Holden's values add anything particularly significant to students' lives today."What values are you referring to that aren't relevant today? Compassion? An appreciation for literature and the performing arts? Museums? Protection of innocence? Boy/girl relationship concerns? Getting along with friends? Are these values of little significance?
And are "values" some overriding consideration in reading appeal?
What about shared concerns--stress over academic performance, lousy teachers, being unable to communicate with parents, being unable to articulate troubles, not knowing who to trust when you do get answers, angst over the transition into adulthood, sex, sexual orientation, pedophilia, child prostitution, bullying, feeling overwhelmed, thoughts of running away, suicidal thoughts?
Which of these concerns is no longer relevant? They can even be expressed on a cell phone.
The "values" endure...I don't think we need cell phones, Snapchat, or Call of Duty for the story to be relevant to today's young readers.
Kallie wrote: "And I'd like to know where you get this, Cosmic: "Most teachers for the most part are taught to teach a subject or a textbook." Can you honestly say that you know most teachers? That's a helluva lot of people. .."
When a teacher is teaching to the test in order as
Renee said "than their peers in public school, where overtaxed teachers are required to toe a certain line to get those standardized test scores up high enough to get the next level of funding . . . and bonuses for the local education administration poobahs."
Who ever prints up the text books and the tests controls the content that is being taught. Since this is how they schools get their money it isn't very hard to deduce that they have to teach a certain way. I think this was all part of "NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND". But I also think it is the way they are taught to teach. My mother was a teacher and she was taught how to teach a particular curriculum that her school district had invested in.
Maybe I am wrong, but from the kinds of controls that Karen talked about on homeschooled in Massachusetts In massachusetts homeschooling is highly regulated anyways, the curriculum must be approved by the school district and the Department of Education, so no I don't know very many students who were homeschooled. I can't imagine being to far off base.
I bet that they don't let the history teacher do what mine did. When my history teacher got past the American Revolution, he took up the text books and we copied his notes off the chalkboard. He started with the first president and we studied everything concerning that president and what was going on in that president's time in history. It was very interesting and it was the first class that changed my interest in the subject of history. He was passionate about history. Some teachers are passionate but they still have to teach to the test and there isn't enough time for both.
Basically when I was in Jr high and high school the teacher had one area of expertise and the students changed classes. In elementary schools the teachers were taught elementary education skills.
Cosmic wrote: "Kallie wrote: "And I'd like to know where you get this, Cosmic: "Most teachers for the most part are taught to teach a subject or a textbook." Can you honestly say that you know most teachers? Tha..."
This doesn't answer my question about how one person can know most teachers and how they teach.
Kallie wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Kallie wrote: "And I'd like to know where you get this, Cosmic: "Most teachers for the most part are taught to teach a subject or a textbook." Can you honestly say that you know mos..."
And there is room for a teacher to expand on a subject, it is not all teaching to the test. There is classroom discussion going on.
Kallie wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Kallie wrote: "And I'd like to know where you get this, Cosmic: "Most teachers for the most part are taught to teach a subject or a textbook." Can you honestly say that you know mos..."
I don't know most teachers. I don't know most students. But I believe that most students that go to public school are tested. I believe most teachers that teach at public schools are tested by the state to be able to teach in the way that they have been taught taught to teach. Although I believe that teachers and students can add to the discussion I don't think a teacher can create his or her own teaching curriculum not approved by the administration/ board of education. They are servers. They serve the students a set of facts that have been agreed upon by, who knows who, to be "fed" to the students. The students are not allowed to ask too many questions or talk about subjects that are clearly not in line with the curriculum. Would a student be able to question the interpretation of the Catcher in The Rye as I have interpreted it and be validated for it? No, I don't think so. I would not get an A on the test because the answers have already come pre-approved. Even if the teacher could not argue against my interpretation or give me a better explanation, or even if she agreed with my interpretation, the test would dictate the answer. Cliff notes would rule.
"LIFE IS A GAME THAT ONE MUST PLAY ACCORDING TO THE RULES." The Catcher in the Rye
This was the problem with quantity education over quality that was pointed out in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values. Quantity focuses on as many subjects and fact "stuffing" as one can put in a child in school. Quantity is like slow food...it is about digesting and being able to use what you choose to learn emotionally, mentally and physically. Since not all subjects are going to work for you it is about finding that perfect fit. We spend all our adulthood trying to find what we lost when our parents sent us to school. Picasso lamented this as I remember.
Cosmic wrote: "Kallie wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Kallie wrote: "And I'd like to know where you get this, Cosmic: "Most teachers for the most part are taught to teach a subject or a textbook." Can you honestly say th..."
Am I to understand that you are judging today's public school system against a work of 1970s fiction?
Fijke wrote: "...a book should be that you try to see its merit as a work of art, not a moral guide."What a person takes away from any work of art is a function of who that person is. It is the sum of their life experience that determines whether they have the capacity to comphrehend: a) what an artist has attempted to convey and b) the observer/reader's own unique interpretation.
For my taste, the more valuable work of art provides insight into the human condition, whether as a moral guide or a mirror of corruption and depravity. Pretty things are a nice diversion, and we need diversions, but they serve no useful purpose if they don't contribute to solutions to mankind's suffering.
The Nazis collected mountains of beautiful art and murdured teachers and thinkers. That tells you what they considered valuable. They destroyed what could actually threaten them and kept the harmless decorations.
"...not particularly relevant to a reader unless he or she has some kind of connection to the setting. Students today do not have that,"
There are millions of students living in urban settings. I grew up in a suburban setting and found the setting to be interesting simply because it took me to a setting that was different, a new place. I don't get why setting has to be some place familiar. Dystopian/utopian settings are usually strange, yet they are hugely popular.
Are you saying that students today don't have a connection to the urban setting in CiTR? What students? Where? Are they living under rocks? Inside their cell phones?
"Don't expect kids to get values from it or feel connected to it the same way you did."
I didn't notice anyone saying that. Certainly not me. Or are you just lecturing? Lecturing is okay.:)
Fijke wrote: "to be able to understand ideas and concepts even if you feel no connection to them on a personal level."CiTR was not written for children or young adults. It was written as a work of literature and was an instant classic because of its artistic perfection. No one's ever gotten into the head of a kid so completely and flawlessly. Not even Huckleberry Finn. And that's saying a lot.
Add to that the layers of meaning and you have a masterpiece.
Booksellers classified it as young adult because it would sell more copies that way and they pigeonhole books based on the age of the protagonist. That's unfortunate for a lot of young readers who don't have a good teacher to guide them.
I know one teacher who taught it for 11 years and never realized Holden was in a mental institution after having a nervous breakdown. Duh.
Other than the teenage angst angle, the book is not going to make a lot of sense to anyone who's not experienced a traumatic loss of a loved one. A bee sting is an abstract notion to someone who's never been stung.
Holden had back-to-back traumas from the loss of his brother and the suicide of James Castle. He was suffering from PTSD/depression and unresolved grief while trying to navigate the already difficult transition through adolescence.
An adult reading the book has had more of an opportunity to experience traumatic loss and get an entirely different perspective.
To me it's a waste of time for a kid to read the book without the able guidance of good teacher who understands these things.
(Uh-oh, I was cheering for the krauts.)
Monty wrote;"I know one teacher who taught it for 11 years and never realized Holden was in a mental institution after having a nervous breakdown. Duh"
Are you kidding? I know you're not, it just seems hard to believe.
Even if one hasn't experienced personal loss, Holdens personal losses and his reactions to them should be clear to the reader that he is suffering.
Holden finds bullies really distasteful, and they get pretty far in this culture without people calling them on their behavior, especially if they are somewhat charismatic and good looking. That still seems very relevant to me.
Kallie wrote: "Holden finds bullies really distasteful, and they get pretty far in this culture without people calling them on their behavior, especially if they are somewhat charismatic and good looking. That s..."I think this is very important. The way that Holden gets shaken down for 5.00. Holden could represent the little guy against a corporation or a child against and abusive "all powerful" adult or a bully like you said. The way his classmates treated each other felt very real. I think this was part of the magic to the book. He reminded you of how unfair it was to be powerless...if you weren't one of the entitled.
I have to admit that I was sure he was in a mental institution at first. I thought he had TB and was at an asylum...like Kafka went to. Because Holden says that he had to quit smoking on account of his lungs.
Does anyone remember where he admits he is in an asylum?
Cosmic wrote: "Does anyone remember where he admits he is in an asylum?"Its on the last page. Or the first page. Or both.
Bullying is treated in two places: the hazing that led to James Castle's suicide and Maurice, the pimp.
Bullying is also alluded to when Holden mulls over something Mr. Spencer said about life being a game you play by the rules and how the game is rigged by those in power.
Monty J wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Does anyone remember where he admits he is in an asylum?"Its on the last page. Or the first page. Or both.
Bullying is treated in two places: the hazing that led to James Castle's..."
Ok he says, "I'll just tell you about this madman stuff that happened to me around last Christmas just before I got pretty fun down and had to come out here and take it easy."
Page1
"A lot of people, especially this one psychoanalyst guy they have here, keeps asking me if I'm going to apply myself when I go back to school next September."
Page 213.
Page 5 Talks about him giving up smoking. He admits to almost getting t.b. and having to have check ups and stuff.
I think that Salinger has showed us an example of the "iceberg theory". We have to guess where he really is. It is not explicit. He could be in a medical facility that has a psychoanalyst. I mean Hollywood has these kinds of rehab centers right? He could have been run down and this contributed to his depression. So this could be a good book to bring up nutritional needs while you are a teenager and are growing. Just another thing that teens should be able to relate to.
Just because I can see the story from this angle does not mean there are not undertones of another kind and deeper meanings in the text. That is also what makes this book live. At least for me.
Cosmic wrote: "Monty J wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Does anyone remember where he admits he is in an asylum?"Its on the last page. Or the first page. Or both.
Bullying is treated in two places: the hazing that led t..."
Holden wasn't in Hollywood, he was in NYC.
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Thank you, Anne. Seems like I displayed my ignorance on this one. Never realised that the book was written in code form - Salinger should have published a guide with the book. Don't know if that's why I read novels, though...or am I being ignorant a 2nd time?