The Catcher in the Rye
discussion
The Most Overrated Books
Maybe we should lobby for books to be labeled as CGS (Computer Generated Story) or WCG (Writer Cortex Generated)? Not a bad idea.
It would give a new dimension to the discussion of whether a story is "just a story". Did the machine intend to give us subtle hints of this or that characters sexual orientation?
We might, at last, find out if androids dream of electric sheep, and if, when they do, are the dreams erotic.
Renee wrote: "There are "writing programs" available now that essentially do that."I'm pretty sure that's how they come up with "original screenplays" now.
At a certain point, I think L. Ron Hubbard was reduced to a set of instructions on an old Commodore 64. The original is still preserved in the hermetically sealed vaults of a Los Angeles temple, Vatican Archives style.
(Shit, I think I just wrote the next Dan Brown novel....)
Renee wrote: "We might, at last, find out if androids dream of electric sheep."Inshallah.
Gary wrote: (Shit, I think I just wrote the next Dan Brown novel....)The road is clear, go make your fortune!
At a certain point, I think L. Ron Hubbard was reduced to a set of instructions on an old Commodore 64. The original is still preserved in the hermetically sealed vaults of a Los Angeles temple, Vatican Archives style...."That. Is. Freaking. Awesome.
Go thou and write!
(And enter it in the Writers of the Future contest, just for S&Gs) :D
Anne Hawn wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Anne Hawn wrote: "I personally did find the southerners to be conformist and want you to conform as well. Perhaps it isn't apparent when you all ready fit into the mold. But this is ..."I lived in the south for 15 years. Never again. Yes, there is a greater degree of conformity in the south than elsewhere. It`s not even a debatable issue.
Cosmic wrote: "Anne Hawn wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Anne Hawn wrote: "I personally did find the southerners to be conformist and want you to conform as well. Perhaps it isn't apparent when you all ready fit into the ..."What you say about the South resonates with me as I lived there for too many years. Yes, and those are some of the reasons I don`t wish to return.
Petergiaquinta wrote: "Pirsig's big ideas about quality, the good, conformity/nonconformity are great...but he's also a bit airy-fairy, and by that I mean over-idealistic. We, and kids especially, need structure. To do away with tests, grades and homework sounds great. But then how will kids be encouraged to do the work to do the learning? And learning does take work. It takes a lifetime of work that is predicated on those first 12 years (10 in Europe?) of schooling...."I always wondered where Robert M. Pirsig got his ideas. To sum up briefly he said in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values (view spoiler)
I have been reading an essay inDecadence: And Other Essays on the Culture of Ideas called The Value of Education. This was written in 1900. I think this may have been the source of his line of reasoning.
Far from its being a good thing to teach everybody everything, it seems clear that a given intelligence can, without danger to its very structure, receive only those kinds of notions which enter it without effort. If we were accustomed to attach to words only those relative meanings they admit of, integral education would signify the sort of education compatible with the unknown morphology of a brain. In the majority of cases the quantity of this education would amount to nothing, since most intelligences cannot be cultivated. At least by the methods at present employed, which may be summed up in a single word—abstraction. It has come to be admitted in teaching circles that life can be known only as speech. Whether the subject be poetry or geography, the method is the same—a dissertation which sums up the subject and pretends to represent it. Education has at length become a methodical catalogue of words, and classification takes the place of knowledge.
The most active, intelligent man can acquire only a very small number of direct, precise notions. These are, however, the only ones of any real depth. Teaching gives nothing but education. Life gives knowledge.
This has been a very insightful read.
Maybe in some ways all the books we are discussing are overrated because they can not give back a monetary value for the time spent reading and understanding the text. I mean, after I get through reading Ulysses, Amazon and Audible are going to have gain more from this pursuit than I will. What can I do with it?
PS. Sorry some of the text has gotten split up in my effort to cut and paste. Aside from re-typing it there is no way to fix it. The text looks fine line the comment window.
It's too easy for Pirsig and de Gourmont to say education is unnecessary; they could take their educations for granted. And this comes from an aristocrat's mind: "In the majority of cases the quantity of this education would amount to nothing, since most intelligences cannot be cultivated." Of course someone whose job it is to serve the aristocracy wouldn't need their intelligence 'cultivated' to do a good job of that. I'm glad more people have more options than in de Gourmont's time.Besides, education is not only about acquiring 'notions.' Reading, writing, math, socialization and critical thinking are practical skills people usually acquire through education and need to make a decent living in today's world. I don't see an alternative, and don't read one in these posts.
Cosmic wrote: "Maybe in some ways all the books we are discussing are overrated because they can not give back a monetary value for the time spent reading and understanding the text. I mean, after I get through reading Ulysses, Amazon and Audible are going to have gain more from this pursuit than I will. What can I do with it?..."The point in education is not necessarily what you gain in a monetary sense but what you gain in stretching your thinking, training your reasoning and expanding the capabilities of your mind. THAT is priceless. Reading is the first form of organized thought that a child learns; math is the second. To say, 'Oh, I was never very good at English' or 'I was never very good at math' and then look to the listener for sympathy is to admit that you were never very good at organized thought -- an absolute necessity because it is a major survival tool -- and be known as ridiculous, undeserving of respect, and not fit to survive. Moreover, it should be embarassing for any adult to admit this. If you're not good at organized thought, never mind that your educational system may have been deficient: as soon as you reach the age of majority, it is your duty to yourself and your self-respect to fix that situation, and soon. Only an idiot wouldn't get that, and perhaps idiots then don't deserve to survive (or reproduce) because they haven't understood the necessity to better their minds. It's an individual responsibility for adults to gain organized thought and develop it, but a collective responsibility for the community on behalf of children and adolescents, to whom they must teach it.
The quote from the 1900 essay only illustrates that education has been lost on its writer. Either his own education was slipshod and he has tried to make up for it by denigrating the education of those who "have studied everything" or he was so over-educated and resented all those years he wasted poring over dreary tomes.I find most of the essay not only poorly written, but of poor thinking as well.
M.R. wrote: To say, 'Oh, I was never very good at English' or 'I was never very good at math' and then look to the listener for sympathy is to admit that you were never very good at organized thought[...] and be known as ridiculous, undeserving of respect, and not fit to survive. ...what?
Paul Martin wrote: "...what?" That's what I was thinking...
Leslie wrote: "Paul Martin wrote: "...what?" That's what I was thinking..."
I suppose it speaks for itself.
Paul Martin wrote: "...what? "The implication was that being well read and reading great literature provokes thought and helps sharpen organized thought -- and organized thought is a survival advantage. Disorganized thought, which comes in part from not reading much that is worthwhile or not even being able to read, is a distinct disadvantage.
M.R. wrote: "Paul Martin wrote: "...what? "The implication was that being well read and reading great literature provokes thought and helps sharpen organized thought -- and organized thought is a survival adv..."
Is this a personal speculation/opinion or a researched theory? Why would reading one genre/style of writing have benefit over reading another in terms of organized thought, as long as it is challenging to the reader and provokes thought, if that is the standard?
M.R. wrote: "Paul Martin wrote: "...what? "The implication was that being well read and reading great literature provokes thought and helps sharpen organized thought -- and organized thought is a survival adv..."
Survival advantage in what way? I don't quite understand that. I am also confused that you stated people who don't have organized thinking are unfit to survive. Humans have survived without reading for a few hundred thousand years.
Karen wrote: "M.R. wrote: "Paul Martin wrote: "...what? "The implication was that being well read and reading great literature provokes thought and helps sharpen organized thought -- and organized thought is a..."
Not to mention the implication that we should be obligated to meet some standard of thought organization in order to reproduce...I actually question whether anyone, particularly someone who understands math(! ha!) should be reproducing...there are more than enough people in the world.
Leslie wrote: "Karen wrote: "M.R. wrote: "Paul Martin wrote: "...what? "The implication was that being well read and reading great literature provokes thought and helps sharpen organized thought -- and organize..."
Well, I have reproduced! Once. The implication that people need to meet a standard of organized thought to deserve to procreate is scary- it reminds me of Hitler's idea of a perfect race.
Karen wrote: "The implication that people need to meet a standard of organized thought to deserve to procreate is scary- it reminds me of Hitler's idea of a perfect race."Absolutely. This very quickly and easily becomes an attack on the poor and marginalized who already have limited access to education and representation through intricate civil rights manipulations.
Leslie wrote: "Karen wrote: "The implication that people need to meet a standard of organized thought to deserve to procreate is scary- it reminds me of Hitler's idea of a perfect race."Absolutely. This very q..."
We all know very smart, insightful compassionate people who only read "trashy" books, or maybe no books because they don't have time or just aren't interested- and they are good parents. Some have reading problems and it's too difficult, many poor people have two or three jobs. I feel really fortunate that I read well and I have leisure time for it, that wasn't always the case.
Karen wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Karen wrote: "The implication that people need to meet a standard of organized thought to deserve to procreate is scary- it reminds me of Hitler's idea of a perfect race."Absolutel..."
Yeah...and math is just dumb ;) ha!
I can't speak for M.R., but I was talking about people here and now, in the U.S. I know an amazing mechanic who can figure out how to fix just about anything though he doesn't read well because he's dyslexic. His mind is certainly organized enough to figure out some very complex mechanical and electrical problems that baffle me and my husband. But it seems to be tougher for most uneducated working class people to get good jobs now that a lot of U.S. production has been outsourced. I suppose that could change, but don't see it happening anytime soon. The corporate world stiffs them (well, everyone) worse than ever.
I believe it is Oliver Sachs, the neurologist from NYC, who wrote about a Young woman, IQ 140 who was dyslexic. The factors of any person´s intelligence are multiple, some can draw but not read, others are brilliant mathemeticians but are not musical....it´s called multiple intelligences. I had a good friend in high school who scored 674 on his English SAT, but only 350 on the math portion. You go figure.
Geoffrey wrote: "I believe it is Oliver Sachs, the neurologist from NYC, who wrote about a Young woman, IQ 140 who was dyslexic. The factors of any person´s intelligence are multiple, some can draw but not read, ot...""go figure"...math...ha ha ;)
Geoffrey wrote: "LeslieHunh?"
Math...figures..."go figure"...it's kind of a pun.
Kallie wrote: "Besides, education is not only about acquiring 'notions.' Reading, writing, math, socialization and critical thinking are practical skills people usually acquire through education and need to make a decent living in today's world. I don't see an alternative, and don't read one in these posts. ..."Practical skill do not need a school. They can be learned on one's own, because they are practical and make sense in the "real world". School is not the real world. School is an artificial daycare for children.
I didn't print the whole essay. I invite you to find it on the web yourself. He is not against learning. He just doesn't believe that mass schooling is the right way to go. Evidently neither do some teenagers because they drop out of school.
You said that you didn't see an alternative. I invite you to look at this book:
The Teenage Liberation Handbook: How to Quit School and Get a Real Life and Education
In the first paragraph of :
THE VALUE OF EDUCATION by Remy De Gourmont
Without being as widespread as it might be, and as it will be, education is very much in vogue. We live less and less, and we learn more and more. Sensibility surrenders to intelligence. I have seen a man laughed at because he examined a dead leaf attentively and with pleasure. No one would have laughed to hear a string of botanical terms muttered with regard to it; but there are some men who, while not ignorant of the handbooks, believe that true science should be felt first as a pleasure. It is not the fashion. The fashion is to learn in books alone, and from the lips of those who recite books."
I know children that have played around with reading and taught themselves how to read. They read so much and such a variety that they out scored on their SAT score four ivy league schools as well as the public schools in their area. They couldn't do this in public school because their is not enough time to do that and go to school; and have your life broken up into little disjointed segments; and work assigned to you that is also irrelevant to what you are thinking about or interested in or wired to learn.
The point is that you don't need school to learn.
Children are learners when they are born and they usually learn their first language before they are six. I says six because this is when most children in the US start school. They learn it through imitation and experience. They learn their first language through immersion. But they don't have to learn it at school nor is that, in my opinion, the best way.
Children want to learn to talk and you don't have to assign them homework to get them to do it. (I know there are late talkers. Albert Einstein didn't talk till he was 4. He made up for it and no one was the wiser when he gave lectures.)
I know a boy that learned electronics when he was 6 because that is what he was interested in. His parents let him because his experiments were educating him. This boy was not good at reading, because he was dyslexic. He loved science and his parents figured one day he will want to read. When this boy was 10 he learned how to build computer. He didn't learn how to build computers out of a book. He learned it by someone showing him and he was receptive to it. He had that kind of intelligence that was able to make those connections easily. When he was 12 he learned how to install Windows...he didn't read but he knew what order to answer the questions. At 14 he taught himself computer programming by looking at other people's code on the internet. When he was 17 he built a web page and was uploading news video to their webpage...all things that were at the time cutting edge and innovative. At 18 he was hired to build a cable tv assess channel studio. At 19 he went to work at a local tv station and did paper work. He wrote a program to streamline this job (less paperwork which he didn't enjoy) and it was faster and more reliable. He also is assistant engineer and operates the live truck. Everyone enjoys working with him. They call him when they have computer issues. He developed social skills just like they have been doing it for thousands of years, by imitation and experience with adult and others people.
Now when a child graduates from one of our high schools what is he qualified to do? How did high school prepare him for that?
Here are some questions from De Gourmont:
"What is the value of education? What sort of superiority can it confer upon an average intelligence? If education be sometimes a ballast, is it not more often a burden? Is it not also, and still more often, a sack of salt which melts upon the ass's shoulders in the first storms of life? And so on."
We didn't always have a public school system...this is a new invention. Where did it come from?
Geoffrey wrote: "find most of the essay not only poorly written, but of poor thinking as well. ..."Did you read the whole essay? I only cut and paste a little of it. I don't think you can judge the whole thing by one or two paragraphs. I invite you to read it for yourself.
M.R. wrote: "Reading is the first form of organized thought that a child learns; ..."I disagree. There are probably lots of different things a child does in distinguishing his world that results in organized thought. Differentiating his mother's face and voice. But also learning to communicating. Learning a language requires a lot of organizations on the part of a child. If you don't believe it, try do learn a second language. For some reason learning your first language did not require homework. It was something the child wanted to do. This is the point of a quality education that Robert M. Pirsig is trying to point out in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values It is also the philosophy of De Gourmont.
Geoffrey wrote: "The factors of any person´s intelligence are multiple, some can draw but not read, ot..."I agree with you, and so would De Gourmont. He actually talks about multiple intelligence in his essay.
Here is what he says:
"There is much talk, in certain political circles, of integral education. This means, doubtless, that every-body should be taught everything—also, that a vague universal notion would be a great benefit, a great comfort for any intelligence whatsoever; but, in this reasoning, there is a confusion between matter and form.
The intelligence, which has a general and common form, has also a particular form for each individual. Just as there are several memories, so there are several intelligences; and each of these intelligences, modified by its own physiology, determines the individual intellect.
Far from its being a good thing to teach everybody everything, it seems clear that a given intelligence can, without danger to its very structure, receive only those kinds of notions which enter it without effort. If we were accustomed to attach to words only those relative meanings they admit of, integral education would signify the sort of education compatible with the unknown morphology of a brain. In the majority of cases the quantity of this education would amount to nothing, since most intelligences cannot be cultivated. At least by the methods at present employed, which may be summed up in a single word—abstraction. It has come to be admitted in teaching circles that life can be known only as speech. Whether the subject be poetry or geography, the method is the same—a dissertation which sums up the subject and pretends to represent it. Education has at length become a methodical catalogue of words, and classification takes the place of knowledge."
I once got a fortune cookie that said, "Knowing and not doing is the same as not knowing"
I think that sums up what I believe is the difference between "education" and quality learning.
Leslie wrote: "Karen wrote: "M.R. wrote: "Paul Martin wrote: "...what? "
The implication was that being well read and reading great literature provokes thought and helps sharpen organized thought -- and organize..."
Oh Karen,
good job our parents did not think this- we would not be having this conversation!
On the other hand...
http://allpoetry.com/This-Be-The-Verse
The implication was that being well read and reading great literature provokes thought and helps sharpen organized thought -- and organize..."
Oh Karen,
good job our parents did not think this- we would not be having this conversation!
On the other hand...
http://allpoetry.com/This-Be-The-Verse
Leslie wrote: "Geoffrey wrote: "I believe it is Oliver Sachs, the neurologist from NYC, who wrote about a Young woman, IQ 140 who was dyslexic. The factors of any person´s intelligence are multiple, some can draw..."Lol! Math punning is more fun than actually doing math.
Cosmic wrote: "We didn't always have a public school system...this is a new invention. Where did it come from? "Church.
And now, many churches are encouraging people to take their children OUT of the school system . . . The old rule applies: don't call up something you can't control.
Gotta love it. *snickers*
Renee wrote: "And now, many churches are encouraging people to take their children OUT of the school system . . . The old rule applies: don't call up something you can't control.
Gotta love it. *snickers*"
Ha! Amen.
I got stuck in a fundamental, independent Baptist church school in the south for three years. They were as glad to see the last of me as I was them, lol.
Renee wrote: "I got stuck in a fundamental, independent Baptist church school in the south for three years. They were as glad to see the last of me as I was them, lol."
I bet! Haha. The last time I was in church I was 15, drunk, and had forgotten to zip up my dress.
Renee wrote: "I got stuck in a fundamental, independent Baptist church school in the south for three years. They were as glad to see the last of me as I was them, lol."
Good girl!
Karen wrote: "Renee wrote: "I got stuck in a fundamental, independent Baptist church school in the south for three years. They were as glad to see the last of me as I was them, lol."
I bet! Haha. The last tim..."
Love it.
My story you don't want to hear. I was molested by my baptist church's youth director, who molested others a the Fort Worth Orphanage where I grew up. A deacon at the church was the sadist who ran the orphanage and beat hell out of the kids until he was forced to "resign." He then ran Boysville, near San Antonio, until he retired in 1972. A boys facility there bears his name today, but I bet that changes when my book is published.
Monty J wrote: "Renee wrote: "I got stuck in a fundamental, independent Baptist church school in the south for three years. They were as glad to see the last of me as I was them, lol."
Good girl!"
Why thank you. Everyone else was convinced I was a bad girl.
Monty J wrote: "Karen wrote: "Renee wrote: "I got stuck in a fundamental, independent Baptist church school in the south for three years. They were as glad to see the last of me as I was them, lol."
I bet! Haha..."
Good for you Monty!! That is how change happens, and I will certainly buy your book.
My experiences weren't nearly so traumatic, Monty, but one of my favorite quotations, from an early age, is Diderot's "man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." I've always shared his belief that we are meant to think for ourselves, a doctrine that directly contradicts politics and religion (not to be confused with genuine spirituality). On that score I think Gandhi nailed it, "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians, they are so unlike your Christ."
Renee wrote: "My experiences weren't nearly so traumatic, Monty, but one of my favorite quotations, from an early age, is Diderot's "man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of t..."As an athiest, I like the historical Jesus- the "trouble maker" who stood up to the Roman government, and who was fearless, and human. That to me is fascinating.
Monty J wrote: "My story you don't want to hear. I was molested by my baptist church's youth director, who molested others a the Fort Worth Orphanage where I grew up. A deacon at the church was the sadist who ran the orphanage and beat hell out of the kids until he was forced to "resign." He then ran Boysville, near San Antonio, until he retired in 1972. A boys facility there bears his name today, but I bet that changes when my book is published. ..."How tragic! I have met quite a few injured people from these safe havens of abuse. It made me question a lot of my own upbringing and the role religion has played in the theater of the world. My daughter and I have been reading Nicholas and Alexandra. Rasputin played a huge role in the fall of the tsar. It is diabolical.
Karen wrote: "Renee wrote: "As an athiest, I like the historical Jesus- the "trouble maker" who stood up to the Roman government, and who was fearless, and human. That to me is fascinating. ..."Hmmm I am not sure how he stood up to the Roman government, but I like how he drove the money changers out of the temple. There is a lot there to ponder on.
Cosmic wrote: "...I have been reading Nicholas and Alexandra. Rasputin played a huge role in the fall of the tsar. It is diabolical. "What about Nancy Reagan and her astrologer? Wonder what she had to do with the Iran/Contra affair and the invasion of Grenada and..., and... .
Monty J wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "...I have been reading Nicholas and Alexandra. Rasputin played a huge role in the fall of the tsar. It is diabolical. "What about Nancy Reagan and her astrologer? Wonder what she h..."
Nancy Reagan, yeah...consider what she did right here at home with her "war on drugs".
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Maybe we should lobby for books to be labeled as CGS (Computer Generated Story) or WCG (Writer Cortex Generated)?